WGBH Radio; The Callie Crossley Show

Like Crossley Show for Bay Staters the beach is one sure place to catch a break from summer's blistering heat. And some are getting more than just a cool breeze from the ocean waves. Boston is bringing local veterans and activity right from the shores of L.A. the surfing classes soldiers with missing limbs and other combat injuries learned to boost themselves up on the surfboard and in the process may get a boost in self esteem. We'll talk with an adaptive sports therapist leading the effort and a vet who didn't let injury stop him from winding waves. But first as a continuation of our 2010 mass decision coverage. We talk with candidate for Congress Mack delist Andro about whether there's room for liberal Democrats in a post Scott Brown Massachusetts. We top it off with a tribute to the late gospel great Walter Hong is up next a new wave of politicians veterans breaking waves and waving goodbye to a gospel legend. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi saying an Islamic community center and mosque slated for construction a few blocks away from Ground Zero has

cleared a major hurdle NPR's Brian Reed reports New York City's Landmarks Preservation Commission voted unanimously against giving landmark status to a historic building on the site. Opponents of the center which will include an auditorium swimming pool and a place for prayer had hoped the commission would throw a blockade in front of Cordoba Initiative the Muslim organization planning the project immediately after the vote one audience member yelled shame while another shouted that the center was a Trojan horse. Daniel Thomas came to see the vote. He says he lost a close friend in the 9/11 attacks. This country is built on many different religions and I think everybody has a right to worship. But the location is just extremely inappropriate. The center has a strong group of supporters too including some families of 9/11 victims. The area's community board and Mayor Michael Bloomberg who has defended the center as a symbol of religious tolerance. Brian Reed NPR News. Connecticut police are notifying the families of victims killed in a workplace shooting today they say several people were killed by the gunman when he opened fire this morning at a beer

distributor in sight that is in Manchester. There were dozens of people inside the building at the time. Police say the gunman was among those found dead at the scene. Consumer spending and personal incomes are flat for June. The Commerce Department says a savings rate on the other hand shot up last month. Danielle Karson reports consumers are still taking a step back from spending to build up their savings. People are spending some money just not a lot. They socked away more in the bank pushing up the savings rate to its highest level in more than a year. Not great say economists when spending drives most of the country's economic activity. This is about the worst number that we've seen since October of last year. Craig Thomas an economist with PNC Financial Services Group says consumers have had a lot to be anxious about Europe's debt problems the oil spill in the Gulf and a weak jobs market. The outcome of that seems to be a slowdown in consumption. We're just sort of taking a wait and see. Kind of like a frightened coral looking out of it's a hole in the tree. I wonder whether it should come out

again. Economists say job growth will dictate how much people spend. A new employment report comes out Friday. It's expected to show businesses beefed up their payrolls by more than 100000 in July. For NPR News I'm Daniel Carson. And we'll take a look at stock numbers in just a moment and other news the Israeli military confirms that one of its senior officers a lieutenant colonel has been killed in a cross-border fight with Lebanese forces. Several Lebanese troops also died. The incident was the deadliest along the border since the 2006 war. Numbers from Wall Street Dow is down nearly 30 points at ten thousand six hundred forty seven Nasdaq down 12 at twenty to 84. This is NPR News. Bank of America has agreed to pay six hundred million dollars to settle several shareholder lawsuits associated with Countrywide Financial. But as Scott Graf of member station WFYI in Charlotte reports it doesn't necessarily end the banks Countrywide problems Countrywide which was purchased by Bank

of America two years ago had faced several class action suits and it withheld information on its portfolio from investors. The company had loosened lending restrictions as the U.S. housing market boomed. But when the market went south many Countrywide clients defaulted and shareholders suffered Countrywide and several former executives though are still under investigation by the Securities and Exchange Commission and the Department of Justice as part of the settlement which is the largest so far of the mortgage crisis Countrywide executives admitting guilt. For NPR News I'm Scott Graf in Charlotte. The Highway Loss Data Institute is out with the most attractive vehicles to steal as it put it and it says thieves are going for bling. The group's V.P. campaigns will Baker says the Cadillac escalate is number one on that list. We see things like the Cadillac escalator which has been on the list for a long time. Some of the new entries are things like the Dodge Charger with the Yami engine in it and the very fast you're really Corbet the 0 6 model.

The vehicles least likely to be stolen according to the group include the Valvo S.A.T. the Saturn Vue and the Honda Pilot taking another look at numbers from Wall Street Dow Jones Industrial Average continuing to drop down thirty six points to ten thousand six hundred thirty eight. Nasdaq down 12 a 20 to 84. The slide upon mixed economic news today. This is NPR. Support for NPR comes from the George gun Foundation working to advance Cleveland and northeast Ohio at Gund foundation dot org. Good afternoon I'm Kelly Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show. Today we continue our 2010 mass decision election coverage with Mack delist Andro. He's among the new wave of candidates taking on establishment politics. He's challenging incumbent Steven Lynch in the Ninth Congressional District. Sondra welcome. I callate How are you.

Fine. So the question must be asked Why did you get into this race and challenged Stephen Lynch. I am so terribly frustrated Calley. There's what we need is not more Democrats. We need better Democrats Democrats are going to start standing up to these very powerful corporate interests and really start standing up for our families and communities. This is something that you raised at the recent net roots convention when you were talking about the better Democrats concept that seems to be directly targeting what some would call the conservative wing of the Democratic Party. Is that right. That's absolutely right I mean in Congressman Lynch we have somebody who voted for the war in Iraq and its continued funding even as we are laying off teachers and shuttering firehouses in this district. We have in Congressman Lynn somebody who chose to stand with insurance companies and Republicans in voting against national health care reform.

And so how do you plan to get your message across it's no secret that a lot of people thought well they said some of the Union said right after Congressman Lynch voted against the health care bill that they were going to find somebody to run against him. Are you the guy that they found. No no union asked me to challenge Congressman Lynch. Congressman Lynch asked me to challenge him by his consistent voting with Republicans and with large corporate interests. That's why I'm taking him on now. And the response to you so far the response has been great we just wrapped up something called 21 and 21 where we visited all 21 cities and towns in the district over the span of 21 days and I will tell you that in those discussions with voters and small business owners throughout the district there is a real sense of frustration with the way things are going in Washington right now. Folks feel that if you're a big oil company or a Wall Street bank Washington finds a way to bend over backwards to help. But if you are just a family struggling to survive a small business keeping your head above water.

Washington's not being very responsive at all. Today's Globe has a piece by Brian Mooney looking at the race with you in it and the headline says that you're banking on voter anger. Explain that. Or do you agree with that assessment. Well I don't know that I'm banking on voter anger but I'm encountering the frustration of voters out there and offering them an alternative new ideas a new voice a new advocate for their interests and not those of those very large corporate special interests. But there is an anti-incumbent thing going on across the country we've seen that in the in the most recent elections and so some of that must be motivational for some of your supporters. Sure and I think that that that general feeling of anti-incumbency has something to do with the fact that incumbents are playing a Washington game and not doing enough to stand up for the interests of everyday folks. Let's talk about you've got solid what people would call progressive critique credentials and in fact you describe yourself as a moonbat with an edge which is kind of interesting. You work for the

SEIU union you work for Scott Harshbarger the Greater Boston Legal Services. We're Massachusetts's no longer can no longer be considered progressive in the way that it might have been just a few years ago. And in fact most voters consider themselves independent and a lot of those voters those independents seem to be trending conservatively. So how do you think they look at you saying forthrightly progressive. No apologies. Well at the end of the day I don't believe it's about whether someone considers themselves progressive or conservative or Democrat or Republican. Nobody wants big banks to get tens of millions of dollars and then lay off 35000 workers as Bank of America proposed to do while they continue to pay their executives huge bonuses and kept their fleet of corporate jets I stood up to Bank of America during that process. And Congressman Lynch cast their campaign contribution. Nobody wants no matter what they consider themselves politically. An insurance company

to deny coverage to children because children have preexisting conditions. So it's really about talking about the issues and what I believe and what I'll stand for. That is something I'm trying to convey to voters. We're talking with Mack Alice Andro who is challenging incumbent Steven Lynch in the Ninth Congressional District. OK. Let's talk about some of the challenges that you've got before you. The state Democratic Party chairman says quote You have an uphill battle to win this race against Lance because he's entrenched he's been there a while. Some of that came to the fore again I think when up former President Bill Clinton came to town to offer a very hearty endorsement of him. So how do you an entrance somebody who has that kind of a who is attracting frankly that kind of star power to his campaign. Well I don't think anyone was all that surprised to see that an incumbent an entrenched incumbent like Congressman Lynch is shown the love by the party establishment. You know that's to be expected I think voters understand that I'm

doing what I believe I need to do to win this race which is getting out there and getting into these communities hearing about what people are concerned about and offering them solutions. Now let me just follow up about the visit from former President Bill Clinton because they held that event at an iron workers hall. And remember we this there was a lot of sentiment against Congressman Lynch by the unions right after his vote against the health care bill. So now here we have a situation fast forward where he's holding this event with former President Clinton and ironworkers hall and in fact. About two dozen labor organizations have endorsed him. You wouldn't have thought that given the sentiment that was expressed after his health care vote. So how do you as a clearly a union person as well. Appeal to the rest of the Union I mean I'm surprised that he's getting as much support from the unions as as he might. At this point. Well that again could just be the power of incumbency and organizations

making institutional decisions to not want to rock the boat at the end of the day come September 14th and then again in November. The only endorsement that matters is the endorsement of voters and who they select as their candidate. You may you've come out very strongly against some comments made by Steven Lynch's spokesperson who described you as a representative of special interest groups. Do you want to respond to that. Well Congressman Lynch is the person that's lining his campaign coffers with corporate PAC money. I'm not taking any corporate PAC money or any lobbyist contributions and never will. He's chosen to accept those contributions and I wonder if they don't think that makes him as effective an advocate to stand up to those very same interests when the time comes. So in other words you're not the special interest guy he is because of the special interests that from whom he has taken great amounts of money. That's right. OK. Let's but let's talk about money. You've got seventy one thousand dollars by the last according to the last reporting and he's

got one point three million. I understand he started his radio ad campaign. How do you use your money effectively in fact how do you compete with you know relatively small money compared to his campaign war chest. Well some of the most effective campaigns are run not with TV ads and radio spots but with volunteers. We started off this campaign back in late April early May with over 150 volunteers that were gathering signatures to get me on the ballot. We gathered 5000 signatures in less than two weeks that's more than twice the number necessary. We now have hundreds of volunteers engaged in the campaign throughout the district. They're knocking on doors. They're making phone calls. And that is that is you know the kind of campaign that I want to run one that's a grassroots driven. You got 42 days or so until the September 14th primary. And so it's door to door every day until then. Yeah we're not going to doors we're making those phone calls we're having conversations with voters this is precisely

how I would like to serve this district once elected by continuing that conversation with voters to hear what they're concerned about and to work with them to craft solutions. What exactly are you telling them you've mentioned here that you're against corporate interests. But when you're in those one to one conversations what are you saying to voters that you hope it's persuading them to vote for you. Well I'm saying that I was frustrated as they are. I mean I sit at my kitchen table with my wife and we look over our monthly budget and trying forgot a way to pay all the bills and save for our kids education and save for our retirement and it's a struggle. And we realize how lucky we are because there are a lot of families in this district in this country that are struggling even more mightily. We have now one job for every six people looking for one. We have small businesses that are struggling to pay for health insurance for their employees. I understand the frustration that that small business owners and voters have because I'm living through those very same struggles. And that's why I want to represent this community these

communities in Congress. I'm going to frame this in my next question in this way. It's no longer really possible because the voters have demonstrated thusly that you can just look at demographic track and determine how people will vote. But it it must be noted that a big part of the Ninth Congressional District the core of it is in South Boston that's mostly white mostly conservative. You know that's that's that's a whole different. For you anyway I would imagine that's a it's a different scenario. And what you might find yourself if you were campaigning in Cambridge may be a different kind of response. And this district is sprawling so it covers all you know beyond South Boston but that's the core. Again how do you make them see you in a way that they have seen Stephen Lynch in a leadership position. Well we are going to we are going to reach out to every community in this district and I don't wherever folks live there throughout this district whether it's Medfield or Needham or Bridgewater or Brockton or South Boston folks are having the same struggles

the same frustrations and that's what the conversation we're having and I'm trying to point out that Congressman Lynch has become entrenched and he is lining his campaign coffers with those contributions from those insurance companies in those very banks that got our economy into trouble and now we need new leadership a new voice that's going to stand up to those interests behalf of our families and communities. As you know there are a lot of people who have heard that kind of message and believed in it and then said to themselves after the person has taken the seat they didn't represent what they said they would so if you make it to D.C. What are you going to do not to be the D.C. insider not to become entrenched. Well one thing is you know that I've made choices in my life after law school I you know didn't go the route of going to work for a big law firm I worked for legal services and I went to work for a labor union because those are the organizations and institutions that share my beliefs in terms of standing up for for working people when elected to Congress. I'm going to

continue to reach out to every community in this district all 21 cities and towns to ensure that we have the conversation about what is of concern to our families and communities. I've been talking to a number of people who are new candidates running in a couple of them have said that President Barack Obama's victory inspired them even if they don't agree with him or his policies. I wonder if he was one who inspired you and if there are others. Well the first campaign I worked on was a mayoral race in Chicago for a man named Harold Washington who was the first African-American mayor of the city of Chicago and that was a transformative election for the city because it really brought a number of communities together to help folks realize what was possible. I think a lot of people felt the same way about President Obama's election in 2008. I'm hopeful hoping to make a little bit of history here in the Massachusetts 9th because as folks may know there's never been an African-American member of the House of Representatives elected in Massachusetts.

And folks may not know that you're African-American. Yes until this moment. That's right. Well certainly the Harold Washington campaign for those who are not students of history was one that was declared dead on arrival because nobody thought he could win either. So I guess you're accustomed to fighting the good fight on an uphill battle. That's right. That's right. You know I've been in Massachusetts for 16 years now and my wife and I are raising our kids in Milton. We love being here it's a great place to raise a family. We are part of this community and that's why I am working so very hard to represent these communities so I can take the fight on behalf of all of us to Washington D.C.. Well sounds like you have a plan and we'll be keeping an eye on it and there's only a few days really until the September 14 primary. So we'll be back in touch I've been talking with Mack dialysis Andro. He's challenging Congressman Stephen Lynch in the Ninth Congressional District before the

September primaries we will speak with all of the candidates running for this seat. Mack Della Sandro thank you so much for joining us. Thank you Kelly. Coming up a look at how riding the waves is helping war veterans recover from combat injuries. We'll be back after this break. Through. The. Roof. And. With the. Support for WGBH comes from you. And from the Office of Cultural Affairs and special events. Local area restaurants opened

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Learn more at WGBH. On the next FRESH AIR. Brian May Queens guitarist who wrote this song what could you give an audience that they could do while they're standing and they're all crushed together they can stand and they can clap and they can sing some kind of maid talks about Queen and new surprising directions he's taken on the next FRESH AIR. If you've recently received. Do you. Remember. Him. Please return it as soon as you can. August 21st marked. The end of the school year to gauge your support in any amount would make a big difference. Thanks. Good afternoon I'm callin Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show former soldiers are conquering a new frontier. The ocean waves for the Braves is a surfing

program designed to help veterans recover from amputations sustained in combat. Joining us to talk about this rehabilitation program is Randy Woodrow coordinator for the poly trauma amputee network site of the V.A. Boston's health care system. And who someone who will be joining us shortly is on his way into the studio. Lewis stomach Telos a veteran of the Iraq war. Randy welcome. Thanks Kelly. I have to say that a lot of people when they hear this before they even get to the fact that we're talking about amputees surfing say they're surfing in Boston. You know so you've got to explain where people are surfing. Before we get into the rest of the story OK where veterans are surfing in Boston isn't Nantasket Beach in whole and one of the reasons I fed her into are surfing in Boston is that before I came to the V.A. in Boston I was the director of Physical Therapy at the V.A. in Los Angeles and I was able to start an

adaptive surfing program for veterans with all disabilities in the Los Angeles V.A. area. I was fortunate enough to transfer to the V.A. Boston Healthcare System last October and one of the things I was hoping I'd be able to bring with me was a surfing program that we had started in Los Angeles and most people thought I was crazy and we just had some really good luck and we were approached by some local surfers and Nantasket and we were able to develop this program under the leadership of Kelly Casa boom. And we had our first waves for the brave which was an adaptive surf program for veterans with all disabilities not just amputations of limb loss visual impairments traumatic brain injuries a paraplegic or quadriplegic and veterans without disabilities as well. Now this is under the general umbrella of adaptive sports so people should know that that there are amputees and as you say people with other disabilities were participating in all kinds of sports that you might not

imagine that people who are disabled could do. And this one particularly has become quite popular having started in L.A. I've now seen a lot of comments about it from vets and other people who are impressed that this program offers a kind of special freedom to the vets who are participating. Can you explain that. Yeah absolutely the V.A. Boston Healthcare System has a wonderful really full range of adaptive sports that we offer to veterans there's an established Ski program snowboarding program they just had their first summer sports clinic up at Mount Sunapee. The thing that's really nice about surfing like skiing and snowboarding it allows people who may be dependent upon wheelchairs to do something that allows them to go faster it gives them back their freedom it gives them back a feeling of speed something nice that we can give back to our veterans especially some of the younger ones who may not be able to get around as well or as quickly as they did prior to becoming injured.

OK let's let's get down to some of the logistics of this. How do you get up on a surfboard if you're missing a limb. Oh very easy. Sometimes you don't need to necessarily get all the way up. In Los Angeles I worked with a wonderful group of disabled surfers many who are below knee amputees and they just stand up on their prosthetic leg as if it were their regular leg. I know of several beauties who've lost their legs above the knee who have such extraordinary balance that they can stand up on one leg. But we use a regular progression you start on your belly you go up to all fours you go up to a half kneeling and then if you can you can stand for some veterans who aren't very tall or very heavy we can have two people riding on a surfboard and some veterans with amputations can just sit on what we call a stand up paddle board and use the paddle to kind of paddle themselves in on the wave. There's lots of ways we can adapt the sport. You know what. I guess what's interesting is that I could never you know think of myself as as as a surfer and so I think that's what people are trying to get their heads around. OK.

If I have all of my limbs and I'm I struggle on that board. You know a lot of these guys or and women get out there. Yeah absolutely Well we've got wonderful wonderful surf instructors we had a great outpouring of support from the local surf community. Rich banana was a local surfer who approached us with the idea and he had great instructors. We also had a lot of our therapist's recreation therapist physical therapist occupational therapist speech pathologist and nurses who came out and they also helped with the lessons. For some of our more disabled veterans we would have between 2 3 and 4. One primary instructor and volunteers on each lesson so you really aren't by yourself if somebody does fall off of a surfboard. There are three or four big strong people to catch them and scoop them up and so really it's a relatively safe way to enjoy the waves. Actually I went online to just look around at some of the other places where there are this program is under way and I saw this really. To me a powerful

photograph of one veteran who had lost a limb and a guy with no legs. He was helping him on his back on the beach to get out to the board. And I thought wow that's that really says it all in that in that photograph. Yeah absolutely there's a wonderful sense of camaraderie there's there's a great kind of feeling of how veterans with disabilities can help each other somebody is visually impaired. They can help someone who may not have the use of a limb. Everybody comes out everybody supports everybody says try this you know you may want to add a little bit of this you may want to go with a longer board a shorter board you may want to adjust your stance. It's just a really nice collaborative sport and surfing really isn't all that competitive it is on the higher levels but it's a great learning experience it's a great way to share one's love of the water and of the waves and of the ocean. We are speaking with Randy Woodrow. She is coordinator for the poly trauma amputee network site of the V.A. Boston's health care system and more importantly she's working with amputees in the waves for the brave surfing program

designed to help veterans recover from amputations sustained in combat. Randi here's a question where what wars are most of your participants from or is it all over the place. We have a wonderful mix some of our veterans are from the Vietnam War a couple from the Korean War and then a large number from recent conflicts and some were not combat injured at all. We really don't discriminate we provide the services for all that aren't. OK. Randy we have Louis Los who is a veteran of the Iraq war and a participant in the program on his cell phone so I want to alert my listeners that this is not a great connection. But I did want to hear from one of the vets themselves who's participating Hello Louis. Oh we doing fine. Tell us how you got into the program. Waves for the Braves and what it's done for you pretty much are granted I last year went to stand in a summer sport. But Nick and

Randy would go out there and pretty much week I think from there and once didn't change jobs or move to Boston pretty much you know him for me that they were looking to do it. And I'm like keep in touch and that's what we did and I went through it and I lost some time. And what makes it so special. It's a way to connect to other veterans on a different level. There's no rain. There's no uniformity. You're there for a good time and it's separated from military. They're you know understanding that there's something more than just the military aspect to everything in life that there's something more. You were shot by a sniper in an airplane in 2006 and the sniper shot you in your right shoulder and damage the nerves on your right side were in a coma for a month and a half get to learn how to walk again how to do everything again. You could even hold your head up when you woke up. And yet now you're surfing.

Yes they did a lot of recovery process but it's been worth it very time to process the last six years and I've been pretty hardworking pretty little therapy keeping myself active and doing the talking to stop sports like this. I don't have use of my right hand I got a limited use of my right shoulder and elbow if I'm able. And so he comes out of the choice and the will of the person what they want to do something not good. Always figure out something if you want to do it. Lewis one of the other veterans and as I was reading online said that surfing makes him feel free. Is that a sensation you feel. It's kind of looking forward to almost the point is that you know I'm not I don't attack but when you get on that way I'm just ready. Whether it's kayak or surfing and you're going to have a lot of push against you. Allen still Gentilla powerful at the same time it

is peculiar. It can't quite explain. Randi I was aware prior to learning about ways for the Braves that there were lots of people who were amputees not lots but you know more I knew about who skied I was very familiar with the story of for example Bonnie St. John who is an African-American woman who was became a champion Olympic skier. You know Stephen Stephanie Victor and I remember James Stacey was in a movie about an amputee who was a champion skier skiing. Yeah I knew about but surfing. This is this is something entirely new. Yeah the V.A. has done a great job about promoting sports for veterans with any disability. Like I said the V.A. Bostons got wonderful program pretty much all season four seasons all year round and this was just something we've got a great kayaking program every Wednesday out of the Brockton campus and Lewis is very modest he's one of our kayak instructors.

This was just something else that we could bring to the table to offer our veterans who are interested in surfing. It was it was a change for me coming from Los Angeles a surfing culture to Boston which wasn't a surfing culture but there are surfers here they're very hardcore surfers here who are just so excited to have the opportunity to share their love of surfing with the veterans from the Boston area who served our country and the V.A. at Boston is just so supportive. Expanding to this program as well. Well one of the things that should be mentioned here is that certainly the veterans coming back from the Iraq war and Afghanistan wars are some of the youngest and also some of the most injured. So where we're dealing with a growing population of young men and women who may be amputees or in other ways may have be disabled and a program like this can I. I'm imagining Louis boost a lot of self esteem you're trying to find yourself again.

I want to I want to push the dolphin thing about both of them get rid of them to let go of the things that we come here in time vision that are holding you back. Make you resist doing that because the fear or the. Knowing I simply don't know what else to do you keep on doing the same thing just not because that's all you know and if you didn't well it would be you know something new a new call to talk about. Thing well that. You know that's worth his price in gold for a lot of people I have to say it sounds like a wonderful program and I know that a number of other people would be interested in it so I'm going to offer the dates for the next surfing classes the dates for waves for the brave surfing classes the upcoming ones August the twenty ninth and September 12th and the July class was full so if people are interested they should check in with the waves for the Braves program and act I've been speaking with Randy Woodrow coordinator for the poly trauma amputee network site for the V.A. Boston

Healthcare System and Louis tomato Lohse who is a veteran of the Iraq war and a surfer. Thank you both for joining us. Thanks. Up next we pay tribute to the American gospel legend Walter Hawkins. Stay with us. With the. Support for WGBH comes from you and from the Office of Cultural Affairs

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Me. You're listening to change a popular composition by the songwriter legendary songwriter Walter Hawkins. I'm Kelly Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show last month the award winning gospel singer and pastor Walter Hawkins died. Joining me to pay tribute to his life and work is Herbert Jones Herbert Jones is the director of the inner strength gospel choir at Boston University and a songwriter for the Edwin and Walter Hawkins music and arts convention. Herbert Jones welcome. Thank you Kelly good to be here. I know a lot of people are thinking OK Walter Hawkins that's not a name I I know I've heard around Boston but the reason I wanted to do this segment is because the man's reach and the extent of his influence in the entire genre of gospel music reaches all the way into Boston and I wanted you to talk about that can you just

give us just a bit of why his work is so important. Sure. I think Bishop Hawkins work was so important because his songs his and his writing style First of are reflected something new for gospel choirs the church choir has had a new way of interpret ing gospel music and bringing the news a new sound new rhythms and that kind of thing to go to Sunday morning services. But well but first I have to tell us what what do you mean by new sounding new rhythms. Well prior to the Hawkins sound of love love a live one in 1975 most choirs was singing chords that moved very statically very together. Whereas when Bishop Hawkins began to write things like changed and going up yonder the parts became a bit more of what they called Conde contrapuntal. And so the tenors might be moving while the Sopranos were holding a note of the tenors and altos might be moving and that kind of thing so I became a little bit more interesting musically to listen to and then to try

to sing. But in the past. When you talk about that the traditional kind of music everybody just sort of went along with the way it was prior to him. Right everybody sort of moved at the same time in sort of in concert so the chords were very blocked like. And is that what for example a Reverend James Cleveland which is a big name in gospel music would have that would have been the way he would have written his his songs. Exactly exactly. But now Reverend James Cleveland that's a powerful name and I thought everybody thought his his work was so great and that was the way to go so here comes Walter Hawkins and he's trying something different. I mean were people at first interested in accepting the change. Some people were as as as expect as normal with change change comes somewhat slowly. Bishop Hawkins had the good fortune of coming a bit on the heels of Andre Crouch who had already begun that but with smaller

ensembles begin writing this with smaller ensembles. Bishop Hawkins brought that again to the church choir so for his using his own church choir introduced that style to a larger body of people. Now does this make that music more modern. I mean that in that there has been a move for a number of other people who have you know added all kinds of modern rhythms hip hop and everything else to gospel music as a way to attract young people but also to sort of modernize what was maybe considered more of a kind of a traditional sound or was this man's vision just broader than that. I don't know if he set out to intentionally modernize the sound of gospel music in the church I think what happened was as he would tell the story because of his experience of singing with his older brother Edwin and a lot of the experiences they had singing and in the company of other of more secular artists actually a

lot of festivals out on the west coast being based in Oakland. So being on the program with a lot of hard rock acts and a lot of pop acts. They they were they were exposed to a lot of different styles of music and so I think what we got beginning with love alive was the influence of those other styles of music on the message that he was trying to write. Now if you had to pick one song that he composed in his last years and you just think stands out for you what would it be. For me personally it would probably be a song off of love a life I've called Jesus made a way and why that is the style in which he wrote it. It blends a couple of musical elements. A key change is it blends a couple of different soloists it adds in the choir in the choir coming back in a real traditional not even traditional gospel but just traditional

choral sound. And I thought it just it just blended all of that together. And the statement of the of the message of the song was just so personal that you could really relate to it. And that should be mentioned in a moment I'm going to allow our listeners to hear a piece of music and ask you to comment on it but you know this work that he did was really about his mission as a pastor. He wasn't a performer as much as he was a pastor and this was the vehicle by which he got his message out. Yeah well I think he would probably have said that he he did them equally. He was a performer when he needed to be but his real His heart was in fact him pastoring and shepherding people. OK. We have a song that's well known by him called marvelous and I wanted to allow our listeners to hear a piece of that and then ask you to comment on it. OK. Give.

Me. My. Feet. With a Herbert. When we look at that we hear that definite the strength of the choir there. Tell us what else were you listening to. You're listening to someone who is singing what we call in the church their testimony out of his personal experience his personal conviction his personal belief about his personal relationship with God how he relates to God and how he believed God. He's convinced that God relates to him. If you knew Walter Hawkins personally can you share a memory of interacting with him. Yeah I met Bishop Hawkins initially on a on one of his

concert tours here but then sort of got to know him through the water Hawkins and it was Hawkins music an arts convention and I know what you know what let's pause there and explain what that is so people understand what we're talking about. It's an annual convention of gospel singers and musicians and songwriters as well as in the last probably 10 to 15 years of the convention gospel pastor church pastors who come together and just sort of almost like a retreat where you sort of refresh yourselves by fellowshipping and getting together with others who do what you do and learning from one another and sharing with one another out of your own expense experiences. And if you are going if something new is happening it is likely to bubble up there so. A lot of new work probably came out of that kind of it comes out of those annual conventions. Exactly exactly on songwriters would bring new songs and so while I might not I might hear something there that I wouldn't hear on the radio yet or on

in the TV stations but I could hear it directly from the songwriter there. OK. So back to Walter Hawkins the person you knew him I knew Bishop Hawkins as someone who was genuine about caring for people who really wanted to see people make the best out of themselves in this life and who recognize that because of because of the history of the teachings of the church that a lot of people had been really beaten down by the church and so his message to everybody was that even though you may have made some mistakes so you may have done some things that may not be have not demonstrated your best self that you are still a child of God and that God still loves you unconditionally and God is faithful to you. And I think that was that's what we really hear in all of his his music over the 35 years of his his public career that he was writing songs that spoke to people in various situations to say you don't have to

be isolated. You are still valuable. Now you have to be in awe of somebody when you meet. I mean he's a legend he was a legend in his own time actually. So for you personally what was the impact on your work. The impact on me I think largely was in fact to recognize that even though I grew up in the church that I had to learn to be open and to be accept accepting and embracing of everybody. And as I said to record I mean from a musical perspective or from a musical so yeah I'm sorry that I guess the impact on me was to just write what I feel and to be able to write the best that I could and to not give anything less than my best in terms of my writing to to not be in a hurry but to write honestly

from from from my feelings. Did you try to imitate his style in any way or or what did you do something different. A couple of things that I've written probably could could be traced to Bishop Hawkins pieces yes. OK. You know I think a lot of people though I think Boston they can imagine that Boston has a very serious gospel core but actually there's several large annual. Concerts in town I mean this is there's a lot of gospel going on in Boston it's my point. Yeah and you talk about that. Yes. Well first of all you have then you want to serve a Tory which every year hosts the Thomas Dorsey gospel do you believe in February. And as we know Thomas Dorsey was if is in fact considered the father of gospel music as well as Berklee College of Music has very world renowned reverence gospel ensemble which they produce annual

concerts as well as all of the or most of the colleges in the area have gospel choirs that perform concerts once or twice a year. Not to mention the host of churches in the area that have gospel choirs in their community choirs and. Yeah just a whole host of activities always going on in the gospel community and in any given time what's the likelihood that any one of those groups or those events that you just mentioned somebody's guessing and Walter Hawkins song pretty much any Sunday morning and in some church particularly an African-American church somewhere somebody is singing a lot of talk in song Be it going all the way back to going up yonder or changed or be grateful or in the last couple of years marvelous or thank you or a special gift. What do you say. See it's his legacy. His legacy I think will in fact be the central message that love is central. And it's ironic that his

church would be named Love Center because love is at the very core of that of that body of people there in Oakland. And I think his legacy will be that he wrote music that people could relate to on a personal level and that could reassure them that they were not they were not lost that they were in fact somebody that they were children of God. I want to allow our listeners to hear another piece of composition with the title that I think a lot of people can relate to as you've said it's called grateful. OK. I. Am.

Told. I am. Told. Some other. Love. No Herbert as we hear that. I mean one of the things that also comes forth when you hear Walter

Hawkins song is because of the way it's written you have to be able to sing. You can't you know be a non-singer singing this stuff right. That's true that's true. I mean the harmonies are so tight and the soloists have to be really on point. Yeah. And and and yet I think most of the music of Walter Hawkins allows soloists plenty of room to be creative in the midst of what's going on with the choir and the background musicians. Well that's one of the things that I have to say that I've heard so many versions of for example the change which we opened up our conversation with. But because of what you just said the personalities of the singers as they adapted to the way in which they might articulate it. Yeah. Yeah I think you know well first of all for most of the love a lot of projects and actually most of almost all of his recorded projects he used a very small core of soloists. Most of them coming being related to him. His

sister Lynette his brother Edwin his ex-wife Tremaine his cousin Shirley Miller. So from that core he usually pulled his his soloist with his recordings but even in later years pulling members from his church who were starting to to find themselves musically and giving them plenty of room to interpret his his songs. Where where did Walter Hawkins come from you know I was aware of him from his brother and oh happy day and that song that was very popular but I don't know much about his background. Well. Oh happy day. Well yeah he started off well they both grew up in Oakland going to he was the efficient Church of God in Christ and Walter basically worked with Edwin for most of those years. Early on they were Californians then. Yes yes they were. They were born and raised in Oakland. And were they always involved in church activities. Yes they are. Their mother was their aunt I think is a pastor

out in California and back in the early 50s and 60s that was that was very rare as well. But yes they've always been involved in the church. And a couple of times I've heard them tell stories of how they were frustrated and were almost ready to leave the church. But because of the changing times particularly in the 60s when the whole culture of the country was changing. But but he stuck in there. And as I said through some of their experiences as part of the the Edwin Hawkins Singers and meeting a whole variety of people beyond the church circles he began to feel this yearning to sort of. To sort of lead people and look out for people and care for people and so he started having discussions and then which led to Bible studies which eventually led to the founding of his church. And obviously he had to know that he had some talent for writing and arranging and and musicianship in general. Yeah because that was going to work otherwise for people who

may be struggling to think OK I know that name Edwin Hawkins the Edwin Hawkins Singers. Did their famous song was oh happy day. So people are wondering because it drives me crazy when I'm listening to somebody and I don't know what what they're talking about. I want to say that as I think about names that will be sort of held up down through the years you tell me what you think his legacy is. But in the musicianship of gospel music there is Thomas Dorsey that anybody who sings gospel knows that name and can appreciate it. Well Walter Hawkins name be right up there with his. I think it will I think Thomas Dorsey Edwin Hawkins and Walter Hawkins will be names that will live for for centuries to come. OK. And for you will you be paying tribute to Walter Hawkins and want in what way. In the in the upcoming months and years. I'm trying to work out some sort of medley of water Hawkins tunes to teach to the inner strength choir there's some this fall.

We have the opportunity back in 2000 eight on a angle tour to go to sent to the San Francisco Oakland Bay Area and we actually sang at Love Center for Sunday morning service that year so that we could look forward to that. Yes. Very much. I will look forward to it. We're going to go out on going up yonder which is appropriate. This is another of Walter Hawkins famous compositions. I've been talking with Herbert Jones about the late great gospel singer Walter Hawkins who died last month at the age of 61. Herbert Jones thank you so much for joining us. Thank you Carol. The budget Bourbons Bell thank you he's the director of the inner strength basketball at The View. This is the Calla Crossley Show for a production of WGBH radio Bostons NPR station or news and culture.