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I'm Cally costly and this is the Calla Crossley Show. The British luminaries Samuel Johnson said marriage is the triumph of hope over experience. And for gays and lesbians it's been a longstanding hope that's been dashed again and again. The biggest blow came and President Clinton signed the Defense of Marriage Act defining marriage as an exclusive union between heterosexual. It also frees one state from being required to honor same sex marriages conducted in other states. It's legislation that has particular resonance here in Massachusetts. Last month a Massachusetts judge struck down the Defense of Marriage Act basing his decision on state's rights. We'll take a look at what this ruling means for the political landscape and for the future of legislation on gay marriage. From there it's a look at how the property tax could boost home values by way of schools. We top it off with a contest showcasing Boston's new wave of comics. Up next from justice to jesting. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi saying emergency personnel

are on the scene of a plane crash involving nine people including former Senator Ted Stevens and former NSA chief Sean O'Keefe. It is uncertain if they were among the five people confirmed dead. NPR's Martin Kaste He says the plane went down in a remote area of southern Alaska last night. The Bristol Bay area of Alaska is very sparsely inhabited although it is sort of considered the backyard of Anchorage when it comes to sports fishing. It's about 300 plus miles southwest of Anchorage. A lot of private planes had there during the summer for the fishing season to lodges and that sort of thing. But it is a very sparsely populated area. At the same time there are a lot of planes in the sky. And if a plane goes down there will be other planes around and apparently the crash site was already seen from the air so in some ways you've got more friends in the sky than you do on the ground. NPR's Martin Costa reporting. President Obama is rallying teachers to press for a twenty six billion dollar bill now before the U.S. House. At a Rose Garden

ceremony this morning Mr. Obama said the legislation is vital to saving hundreds of thousands of jobs. We can't stand by and do nothing while pink slips are given to the men and women who educate our children or keep our communities safe. That doesn't make sense. The House has passed key legislation though on border security a 600 million dollar legislation that pays for unmanned surveillance drones at the U.S.-Mexico border and also boosts the number of agents. Federal Reserve policymakers may unveil new strategies to stimulate economic growth and as NPR's Jim Zarroli tells us this could come during an interest rate policy meeting this afternoon after Friday's disappointing jobs report the Fed is under some pressure to come up with new ways to encourage faster growth. One idea would be for the Fed to purchase more mortgage backed securities and government debt that would essentially pump money into the financial system to encourage lending. Officials also could try to reassure the financial markets by

emphasizing in the statement they issue that they are likely to keep interest rates low for the foreseeable future. But the Fed could also adopt a wait and see approach. The meeting takes place at a time when the U.S. economy is growing but at a relatively slow pace and the unemployment rate remains at nine and a half percent. Jim Zarroli NPR News New York. While host Bill inventories go up sales go down that's the picture for June another sign the recovery is losing steam. The government reports inventories rose a tenth of a percent to about 400 billion dollars. Meanwhile sales at wholesale are slid seven tenths of a percent from the downwardly revised figure in May. On Wall Street Dow's down 93 points at ten thousand six hundred six. This is NPR. The H1N1 or swine flu pandemic is officially over that today from the World Health Organization. But as NPR's April Fulton reports countries

are still urged to remain vigilant. You might have thought that the swine flu pandemic was over months ago but w h o Director General Margaret Chan said she was waiting for flu data from the southern hemisphere winter before making the official announcement. Since last April more than eighteen thousand four hundred people have died from swine flu complications worldwide. That number pales in comparison to seasonal flu which has an annual death toll of more than 250000. But chance that her decision last June to declare that the H1N1 virus had reached pandemic levels was the right call it sped up vaccine development and launched public health campaigns. But now the dominance of the H1N1 virus has declined and many people have developed immunity. Still Chan said some serious risks remain. She urged continued vaccination and monitoring. April Fulton NPR News. Drilling on a relief well in the Gulf of Mexico is suspended because of bad weather. BP spokesman Max McKagan says the company stopped its work after the National Hurricane

Center said there was a 60 percent chance of a tropical depression developing in the next two days. The storm could reach the spot where BP has been working to seal a leaking oil well. But BP screw is staying put until further notice. U.S. stocks continue to slide at last check. Dow Jones Industrial Average down 94 points at ten thousand six hundred five. Nasdaq composite index down 36 two thousand two hundred sixty nine. I'm Lakshmi saying NPR News in Washington. Support for NPR comes from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation supporting the 2010 community health leaders working to improve health nationwide at community health leaders dot org. Good afternoon I'm Kalee Crossley and this is the Kelly Crossley Show last month a federal court in Massachusetts ruled that the state law allowing same sex marriage in

Massachusetts should take precedence over the federal definition of marriage. The decision supports an echo as a central tenet ripped straight out of the playbook of the Tenth Amendment and namely conservatives and Tea Partiers who believe that the authority of the states should trump Washington in most matters not explicitly assigned by the Constitution to the federal government. Joining me to talk about what this ruling means for the political landscape and for the future of gay marriage legislation is Elizabeth spawn. She's a professor of constitutional law at New England Law Boston Elizabeth spawn. Welcome back. Nice to be here thank you for inviting me. Now I. It would have been particularly interested in this question because right after the Defense of Marriage Act was struck down a couple of months ago the Boston Phoenix had a headline examining the piece and examining the legislation analytically with a headline that said gay marriage when progressive agenda lost question mark. Yes and it was all hanging around this whole 10th Amendment issue. So before we

go straight to that I thought we should back up just a second and tell people what's the difference in what happened last week in California with the Prop 8 decision and how that was ruled upon by Judge Vaughn Walker and the Defense of Marriage Act which and how that was ruled upon by Judge Joseph Turow a couple of months ago. Great question complicated question. I think the place to start here is to understand that the political issue. Are you in favor of or against gay marriage is somewhat separate from the technical constitutional issues. So Judge Toros Massachusetts opinion is dealing with the Tenth Amendment which reserves the rights to the states and as you said has been a favorite tool of political conservatives really throughout our history. Where is Judge poncy issue in California was dealing with the individual rights of individual. Couples who would like to be married under the 14th Amendment the due process and equal protection clauses so they're coming from two different parts of the

Constitution. OK so let's put the Prop 8 thing aside and just concentrate on Defense of Marriage Act which I a lot of quote unquote progressives have sort of wrung the bill saying this is a problem for progressives if we're allowing embracing this decision based on 10th Amendment arguments why. Well I think the concern of the people the progressives as you describe them the political liberals social liberals historically the 10th Amendment states rights state sovereignty has been a tool that has been used well prior to the Civil War by the slave owning southern states. And then more recently in the in the turn of the 20th century by the state's rights movement that wanted to prohibit federal regulations of things like minimum wage or unions. So it has been both politically socially and economically conservative tool. Historically and it's very

unusual to see it used as a tool for any issue that we think of as liberal gay marriage. So what do you think about that why do they use that. I mean there were two cases two opinions actually in the Defense of Marriage Act striking down one rested on equal protection and the other one there were two separate things rested on this 10th Amendment. Why go there. Well I think. The question of why I go there is is the key political question the strategy question. It's it's a little bit ironic to use a social and political conservative favorite tool. State Sovereignty 10th Amendment on behalf of a politically very progressive agenda. Gay marriage. And I think there's a little sense of humor there. Well yeah unless unless it bites you in the end. Well that is why. And that's where we are because that's what some progressives worry about that this is in fact there is a guy who is a young professor of law who writes A His name is Jack

Balkan he writes a blog called balkanization and he this was his quote. Judge Pirro has offered a roadmap to attack a wide range of federal welfare programs including health care reform. No matter how much they might like the result in this particular case meaning Defense of Marriage Act this is not a road that liberals want to travel. Exactly. So I think Jack Balkan who's a very highly regarded professor of constitutional law I think he's concerned that by having progressives pick up this tool the 10th Amendment tool and use it it's going to strengthen the tool and make it. And I think in his view the tool itself the 10th Amendment is. It has such historical baggage. And in addition has been deployed against progressive causes really for centuries from the time of the abolition of slavery. That he's concerned that as strengthening that party that the tool itself is a conservative

weapon. And I think that's his view. Now what's your view about it I mean on its face it would seem that makes sense. It certainly I mean you're playing with sharp knives here baby don't run with scissors. Yeah I mean this is this is not I wouldn't just discount the danger but I guess I have a little bit of a different opinion with Jack Balkans approach which is the tool is there. It's not going to go away because progressives don't like it. The Rehnquist court and now the Roberts court have resurrected it again and strengthened it again. It's there. It's being used and it seems to me that. It's a tool not necessarily with a particular political agenda attached. It's just that progressives haven't to date. Use the tool. So I don't see any reason why the idea of State Sovereignty 50 different states Justice Black who was certainly progressive

called it the 50 laboratories of experimentation which is exactly what Massachusetts has done with gay marriage were a laboratory. We were the first to actually implement gay marriage and the idea of state differences and state sovereignty I don't think is inherently politically or economically conservative or progressive state laboratories can be used in a variety of ways. I don't see the tool itself as having a political agenda. OK. Well I guess what people are thinking about is that eventually they feel this is going to end up before you know the Supreme Court at some point and then you know as we say down south that's where the Honey Hush comes in. Now that I defend that very strongly. Yeah and I'm not a lawyer you are but it seems to me that you look back at precedent and all the president would be from conservative viewpoint right. I mean to this point which puts the current conservative

justices or the justices that are perceived as conservative on the Supreme Court in a bit of a bind. The proof is in the pudding as what we say in the Midwest. OK. If you believe in the principle of state sovereignty and many of these justices say they do and have in their past opinions said we believe in the variety of 50 laboratories we believe in the principle of federalism we believe in the the design the structure of allowing differences and experimentation among the states. And now they're there. The question is Is it a principled commitment to state sovereignty or is it only committing decided state sovereignty when it serves their political platform agenda. And so I think it's going to be a very I'm for one I'm greatly looking forward to seeing what Justice Thomas Justice Scalia our new or newer justices Chief Justice Roberts and Alito. And particularly of course Justice Kennedy who is

very committed to state sovereignty and very principled on this issue. And I'm very interested to see what they're going to do when the principle of state sovereignty is tied to a politically progressive issue like gay marriage. We are speaking with professor of constitutional law and New England Law Boston Elizabeth spawn. And we're talking about whether or not the use of the 10th Amendment as an argument to strike down the Defense of Marriage Act is a loss for the progressive quote unquote progressive agenda. Now one of the reasons that this struck me was it not just as it was raised with this case is that it keeps coming up now in more recent cases we hear about states attorneys general saying we're filing on behalf of states rights against the health care reform about all kinds of stuff so immigration immigration. So how do you how does that how does that going to work play out then. Well that's I mean I know you.

These are the right questions. I mean there you're right exactly on the money and the money is is the key issue here as usual with health care and immigration where you've also seen the state sovereignty argument raised. These are arguably distinguishable from the Defense of Marriage Act from Douma the gay marriage debate and the recognition of traditional one man one woman by the federal government which conflicts with the Massachusetts recognition of same sex unions. How is it in. Immigration is probably the easiest one to distinguish immigration Congress has a specific federal U.S. Congress has a specific textual grant of power to regulate the Immigration and Naturalization of citizens. And this power has an extensive history at the time of the framing of the Constitution. And then we had the Dred Scott opinion where some states would not allow African ancestry persons to be recognized as persons human beings or citizens and so this federal power

to recognize citizenship and regulate it is deeply rooted in our Constitution and in the history of the development. The Defense of Marriage Act is rooted. The part that the judge Torro addressed is rooted in the commerce clause the power to regulate interstate commerce. OK and maybe the spending clause which I think you also is concerned about. OK so Congress power to regulate interstate commerce is textual but it's also quite amorphous. The outer boundaries of it are quite amorphous unlike the immigration clause which has been very heavily defended by the federal courts over hundreds of years now. The Commerce Clause waxes and wanes and marriage is a commerce issue. But it has been normally historically been reserved to the states. So different states will have different age at which people are allowed to marry. Congress has never

tried to regulate that federalize that under the Commerce Clause. And so using the 10th Amendment to strike down the portion of the Defense of Marriage Act that's rooted in the commerce clause is the least controversial part of Judge Toros opinion and I think it's not I'm not laying awake nights worrying about it or. Where Congress is using its spending clause power now this would come into the Obama health care reforms where Clearly Congress is using money. They're not just giving orders buy me a hamburger they're saying here's some money. Use the money buy me a hamburger you get to keep the change. So the spending clause is very different and Congress has power in the spending clause to date has not been constrained or limited by the Tenth Amendment. So extending the 10th amendment to limit Congress's power to regulate federal money spending putting strict it's Cali it's kind of like

when you were a kid and your parents gave you an allowance and they said you can only spend it on certain things. Exactly. OK. As opposed to when you are a kid and your parents just lay down the law you have a curfew so lang down the law you have a curfew that's the commerce clause giving you some money and saying you can't spend this on rap music. It's your parent's money. So when Congress gives out the money they have a lot more power to attach strings and conditions. Then when Congress is just issuing orders. So what this says to me is this now. I mean because there is so much more it seems to me conversation here out in the public with regard to not just immigration but several other issues and states rights that right should any one of these get to the level of the Supreme Court. This is not one case in the middle of this. There's a lot of potential cases.

Yes so whatever they rule really has a domino effect such as we've not seen before because X is quite different. Yeah it's a teachable moment. I mean it really is because we're taking traditional alliances progressives like the federal government conservatives like state governments and we're going to you know I mix it up we're deconstructing it we're you know shuffling the deck. And now progressives are using states rights arguments and conservatives are using federal power and it's not so fixed illogically. One you know on its face you can say well maybe that's a good thing but I don't know how this is going to let me miss him. It's awfully confusing I think and it seems to me that it's going to put people it's going to force at least progressives to line up maybe behind some ideology that would not necessarily be on their side of the ledger. Yeah we progressives used to think of the federal government as the protector of civil rights

and conservatives are used to thinking the state governments as the protectors of traditional conservative social values. So asking Sarah Palin How do you feel about federalizing marriage is an interesting question I am interested to hear what she has to say about that. I like that I think it forces us all to rethink our positions. So I don't think that a lot of people are paying attention to this. I mean it's it's very interesting to me that you know we're hearing it here there and everywhere keeps popping up. But I don't think there's been a lot of concentration about it so in your opinion by the time this rises to the Supreme Court we're going to be in kind of a mix. And this in discussing this I think I think that I'm really grateful that you're bringing this to the public's attention because it's a structural foundational shift. It's like the Teutonic plates are shifting. Yeah. And we're worried about what color is the room painted. How do you feel about gay marriage or what do you feel about immigration or what do you feel about so that people are working at the level of what the particular political hot button issue is. And we're

actually shifting the structures here which is going to have a wide ranging effect as you pointed out. And we're not paying attention to that. It's fascinating here is a gentleman who he who quoted in the Phoenix pieces said conservatives are the ones now faced with a dilemma in order to reverse Judge Torro This is the Defense of Marriage Act. They have to convince the appellate courts that they were not really all that serious all along in arguing for states rights and the viability of the 10th Amendment. That's right. That's that's right. And if the if the conservative politically conservative justices who have been the primary advocates of the 10th Amendment turn out not to be principled that they're only in favor 10th Amendment when it's also serving conservative political agendas. That will that will do what Jack Balkan wants which is just destroy. Well the 10th Amendment etiology as a principled etiology. So it's really a very sophisticated

martial arts movement I think. All right and there is that new Karate Kid So we'll see you haven't said Eliphalet. We've been talking with Elizabeth spawn. She's a professor of constitutional law at New England Law Boston. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me again I it's a real pleasure. Thank you. Up next a look at how paying property taxes can actually increase the value of your home by way of schools. We'll be back after this break stay with us. Support for WGBH comes from you. And from the Office of Cultural Affairs

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below retail right now at WGBH dot org. On the next FRESH AIR A Day In The West Wing we talk with Vanity Fair national editor Todd Purdum about life in the White House and what it tells us about the modern presidency. Most big things take time to solve and we don't seem to be willing to give a president or anybody that time. Todd Purdum on the next FRESH AIR. Join us. If you've recently received WGBH ask you to. Remember. To. Please return it as soon as you can. Obviously the first marks the end of the fiscal year. To. Gauge your support in any amount will make a big difference. Thanks. Good afternoon I'm Kelly Crossley and this is the Kelly Crossley Show a new study out of Northeastern University concludes that paying property taxes can actually boost the value of

your home by way of the local schools. And joining me to discuss this is the brains behind this study Barry Bluestone. He's the dean of the School of Public Policy and urban affairs and professor of political economy at Northeastern University. Barry Bluestone welcome. Glad to be here Kelly. Now you found that when people vote against an override on property taxes they're often voting against their best interests economically. Please explain. Well of course what happens with the proposition two and a half override is that cities and towns are restricted on how much they can raise taxes unless people vote to raise them. And we've had over rides for for years many of them are turned down because people want to save on the property tax and that's the way to do it. Now we were listening to a broadcast about the. The turning down of an override for the second year in a row in the town of ho here in Massachusetts and one of the people on the show who had been

fighting for this young woman with three kids said she'd had it with Hall. She's going to pick up and move to hang on where they have good schools and are willing to pay for em. And that got my graduate student and a guardsman and me to thinking maybe there's a relationship between the property tax school spending how good the schools are and future property values. And I thought about some of my friends who are real estate agents and I know when they're in a town which has pretty good schools they let their clients know this is a place you might want to move particularly if you have young kids. So we pulled together data on one hundred seventy six of the three hundred fifty one towns and cities in Massachusetts. We looked at S.A.T. scores we looked at property tax rates we looked at how much they were spending on their kids and what we came to the conclusion. It was that for about every dollar that somebody might save on the property tax by turning down a property prop two and a half override if that money had been passed and gone into the schools so they spent more on schools

over a period of five years they get about $4 back in higher property values if they sold their home. So ironically paying more taxes if those dollars are then spent on the schools to make the schools better actually improve the property value so much that the property tax pays for itself. Now a lot of people would hear this and say OK well we know that and in places that are you know well known to be economically well-off that the schools are better so of course this is obvious right. But you're saying something beyond that. Exactly and I mean not everybody is going to live in Brooklyn or New. We've got three hundred fifty one towns and cities and the perception and this is what's important the perception is that some of those towns and cities have very good schools and some schools aren't quite as good as the others. One of the ways that you measure how well those schools are is how do the kids do on standardized tests like Castor S.A.T. the other is how much does the school board spend

per student. And it turns out that that is a measure that seems to correlate very strongly with the rise in property values so that since people are constantly thinking about what community they want to move into and they're not always going to go to the top three school districts for all those other cities and towns how they in a sense sell themselves to potential new residents plays an important role in what happens to those property values. And yet you know anybody listening this is going to say I'm not paying any more property taxes this is tax it uses as it is you know Come on Professor. What are you talking about. Obviously nobody would like to pay more taxes. What people have to remember is that taxes are what you pay what you get is police protection fire services good schools and so forth and those you're paying for with those property taxes. So if you only think about it in terms of how much tax someone to pay you'd obviously say I don't want to pay another dollar tax but if you think about what that tax buy is in

terms of the kinds of services that might affect the overall quality of your community and indirectly the quality of your own home. Since people not only buy a home in terms of how many bedrooms and doesn't have granite countertops but what kind of school district is that home located in. And when you think about that in that complete sense of not only how much you pay but what you had get for it. We found that you get a lot for your dollar if the override goes for the schools. OK so let's say you're a town that already for years has had the perceived and the very real. Our schools are great. Everybody wants to come here. You know there's evidence to prove that however you measure it. Is there a point at which that stops you stop getting the payoff in your own your home value where it just you level off. And it's not going to you're not going to get any more for it I don't care that you're doing great. We couldn't test that directly. And I guess my answer would be maybe. But I

think what happens is that communities are constantly competing with each other for business for new jobs for residents. This is going to be critically important over the next decade because as a matter of fact if you look at it and forecast what it will happen to the population of Massachusetts between now and let's say 2018 based on another study we've done at the Dukakis center at Northeastern you'll find that we're going to be seeing a very rapidly aging population between now and 2018 will have about two hundred forty four thousand additional households. But ironically 300000 of those households will be over the age of 55 will be added by somebody over 55. They'll actually be 56000 fewer households with a household had under 55. In other words we're not going to enough young people. I don't have enough young people to pay taxes. We're not going to have a young enough young people to do the jobs. When I can have enough young people to take care of old people like me. OK.

Communities in that kind of environment are going to be competing. To attract young people into their schools and into their districts to keep them viable. In that case even the school community with the best school system is still competing with other communities and they have to kind of keep their record up and the perception that they care about their schools. And so this may in fact work even for the best school districts in the state. Now some people listen this is say OK well this is really a high calorie high class problem. You know and some sense because and at a time when you know foreclosures are everywhere and their communities are just struggling to survive and let's talk about the other end of the spectrum where you have schools that are struggling and the perception has always been whether or not that's correct they're not so hot they're not a great school is not a place where you'd want to send your kid to school if you had a choice. How do you ever get out of that. I mean how do you change that. Well it's certainly true that the money you spend on schools is not the only factor

that determines how good your schools are. Obviously you want to be working with a good union you want to good superintendent you want to good school board. You want parents who are committed to the education of their kids and other kids. But let's face it if you have two districts that are pretty much equal except one spending a lot more money on their kids than another district you're going to see a difference in the schools if for no other reason the best teachers want to teach in the schools where they have the most resources and therefore it makes a big difference in what the quality of the school is. And as we've see over and over again the quality of the school tends to be one of the critical factors that at least young families take into account when they make a residential decision. So that means that perception or no. If you're in a community where it's perceived that you don't have very good schools your property values are sort of stuck. They would level off or do they go down. Do you have any shot of getting them up again when your what happens with this is that we've had property values falling not rapidly like other parts of the country

since 2005. But they fell a lot less in communities where the schools are perceived as being very good. And that's what we found in this study. I mean the really important thing here is that people have to realize when they go into the voting booth and they'll be many communities with overrides facing overrides this fall that they should not only think about how much more they might pay but they have to think about what does that extra tax buy. And if they think it buys nothing. Then they're probably going to go out and vote against it. But if they can realize that this would not only help the schools but indirectly help them even if they have no kids in the school system. Maybe they would be instead of what we call penny wise and pound foolish. Maybe they would vote their real interests rather than their perceived interests. We're speaking with Barry Bluestone He's the dean of the School of Public Policy and urban affairs and professor of political economy at Northeastern University. OK.

I have a list here of approved overrides in Holliston did it. Upton did it Concord did it. There were some other communities like marble had enough. And Franklin and mending that rejected the override. So our nuffin Franklin Mindon in Marblehead in a better position from a property value. At this point. Well those folks probably are going to save a little bit of taxes over the next five years. But it's interesting. I got a call from somebody from Holliston because that vote came out after our article appeared in The Boston Globe and several people got up in town meeting and used that article and they called to thank me and my graduate assistant because they said they thought there were a number of people who would have voted no. Until they heard this argument and began to realize you've got to think about what it buys as well what it costs when you do the Prop 2 and a half override so that over the long run and this is not going to hold possibly for every last community but we've been looking at Framingham and we've been looking at some of these other communities. There seems to be a

general general conclusion that if the Prop 2 and a half override is for schools there are other things you can use a prop 2 and a half or we don't know what impact that will have on property values. But if it goes to the schools as far as we can tell from the data we analyzed it's going to be a good deal for the city and for evermore town and everyone who lives there. Is this doom for kids in poor neighborhoods then. Well it's not doom I mean one of the things that saves the poorest communities from having horrible schools is that the state of Massachusetts under Chapter 70 redistributes a great deal of state aid to those schools where there is a very low property tax base. A city like Lawrence for example gets a great deal. City like Chelsea and so under court ordered equal educational opportunity. The state has stepped forward stepped up to the plate. They distribute almost 4 billion dollars in aid to the schools each year. If it

weren't for that we would have a society that had even better haves and the have nots would be further and further behind. We have tremendous inequality still today in Massachusetts but at least when it comes to the schools the state government has stepped up under court pressure to make sure that kids in the poorest districts are at least getting a mo to come of the same kinds of education that kids in the richest district aside from those people who called you from Holliston are you hearing from other people who can kind of see your argument. Because I think a lot of people are like I don't know what he's talking about I'm not looking for increased taxes. We got hundreds and hundreds of e-mails after this appeared and a lot of stuff in the blogosphere. And you had some people who said all of this is just nuts Bluestone should also take into account the fact that the property tax itself may reduce property values. We took that into account. It has no impact whatsoever as far as we can tell. But when people really thought about it and realized the better the schools and the perception is if you spend more money the schools are better the higher the property value.

People generally said you know that makes sense. All right I've been speaking with Barry Bluestone dean of the School of Public Policy and urban affairs and professor of political economy at Northeastern University Barry Bluestone thank you so much for joining us. Pleasure. Coming up a look at Boston's burgeoning comedy scene with our film contributor Guerin daily. We'll be back stay tuned to eighty nine point seven. With the.

Support for WGBH comes from you and from the Office of Cultural Affairs in Lowell August 12th through the 14th is Lowell's Quilt Festival. You can enjoy a juried quilt show exhibits of antique quilts and much more. A city of world culture. More info at culture is cool. ORG and from Skinner auctioneers and appraisers of antiques and fine art. You might consider auction when downsizing a home or selling a collection. 60 auctions annually 20 collecting categories Boston in Marlborough online at Skinner Inc dot com. This is eighty nine point seven WGBH Boston's NPR station for trusted voices and local conversation with the world. The PBS News Hour and the callee Crossley Show explore new voices with us all day long here on the

new eighty nine point seven. WGBH. Aug. 30 the end of it this will year for WGBH. It's a lot like the end of the month for many listeners. It's twenty nine point seven but it's down with the Elves to make sure that there's enough. Money to cover the costs. Of bringing you quality independent program. Dues to NPR production studio a special event. They're all very expensive. But if you agree that public radio is worth every penny then please get involved with a contribution before August 30 first. Just click the donate link at WGBH dot org. Wyatt a 9.7 because the way some Kenyans run about it barefoot may be better for their bodies than running in shoes because you'll only hear Marco Werman and the world on the new eighty nine point seven. WGBH radio. I'm Kelly Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show over the summer the Boston Herald has been

host to Boston's funniest minute and online contest where local comedians upload their comic genius for anyone to see and judge. Think of it as the original online version of the TV hit Last Comic Standing. The contest wrapped up last week and joining us to discuss the stand up comic tradition in Boston and those who participated in this contest is Guerin daily. Karen Daly is a film critic and host of the gerund Daily Show on 15 50 W in TNA and a contributor to this show. Hey Karen how you doing. Well first let's talk about Boston as just a comedy. Anyway the history of Boston with comedy. Well you know it goes all the way back to Mark Twain who was you know I was we know a great writer from New England but he also did a lot of monologues in Boston and those monologues were actually part of the beginning of the Stand Up tradition. And then as you move forward it went to vaudeville and vaudeville spawned a breed of stand up. Then I went to radio and radio again created the first essentially modern

standup comics like Jack Benny Fred Allen Frank Fay Frank Ray's actually credited with creating the urge to considered the father of the stand up. And then you go into the 50s where things broke off between the standard comics and the Lenny Bruce's of the world. And then we go into Boston when we hit what is known as the Boston gold rush which was in the 70s and 80s when there was an incredible burgeoning of comedy kind of comedy connection and bingo were all these comics would go and try out new material. And it was something that was a little different than what was going on in New York and L.A. because it was more literate. It was more experimental and it created some of the traditions that are now extend within the standup comedy genre. We have the author of a biography of George Carlin well-known comic and he talked about the importance of Boston George Carlin's career so you don't think of but at least I didn't for a long time didn't realize how important Boston is in the shaping of many comics careers. Let me let you mention Fred Allen and that's what my hero. Yeah that's a name that some people may

remember he was a host at the end of his career kind of a Johnny Carson like host if you will. But he did stand up he did radio. I want to give people a sense of what he sounded like. This is from Fred Allen and to Lula Bankhead radio comedy sketch poking fun at something we've all endured radio sponsors we have I must say you look at this thing they will record it not me. Yes thanks to our wonderful passion at that because that push he went oh my god. The matter is it takes all of the guesswork out of sleep or an. Them that machete angel face here three in here ya copy. Thank you it all was have me Bill come on you know that. Good now I can try some of that little panfish box removed. Yes brace a little panther on your vest and watch it eat the spot right. That's Fred Allen getting a start right here in Boston had no idea how important it was in

his career well you know that the thing about Fred Allen is that you have two members he created a lot of the traditions that we have you know that is that's a classic almost sitcom segment that you just played he also is very creative the kind of the SNL news program every night last Saturday night. Yes he kind of created that as well. So he was very instrumental in doing that he grew up in Cambridge and has his career began in Boston. Well there are moving forward fast forward as it were to thirty two comics who are hoping to really kick off their comedy career through the Boston Herald. Boston's funniest minutes. Yeah I've been online looking at some of them some of them not so funny Gary and I have to tell you. You have to you have to really admire someone who is going to get up in front of a potentially hostile crowd and bare their soul and try their jokes out and you know they're still working on their craft I mean this this is this is like being very courageous but you know like I said like you say some of them are just not

that good. On the other hand some of my thought were pretty good here's one. This is Dave Roussel according to his Boston Herald profile he's from Took Sperry his day job is comic shop foreman. Thank you for that. It was like that. I got to say that the end of that you have to go online to see it as he does this incredible slow motion thing as he's trying to run away from the guy who's right. It's hilarious. It's very good and that's one of the things that you can't really do with the audio is see how good these guys are with their physical movement. They actually bring the great tradition of even slapstick bright right to the stage. But you know what's interesting about Dave Russo as bit was when I looked at the 32 bits on the Boston Herald funniest minute

there were very few black people very few Hispanics and I think only one woman. And you begin to think well is standup a white male kind of gig. Yeah and that's would be my answer. But you know then you take a look at some of the great standup guy Richard Pryor you know Godfrey Cambridge back in the 60s and 70s. Dick Gregory there were some very good black comics. And I'm wondering why we don't have more of them in Boston right now. Well I look at I'm a big fan of Last Comic Standing and so every year I watch as the number of women just go down down down. It's very hard for a woman to hang in there even in the semifinals as a couple now as we're going through but it's tough for a woman too. I know a couple of female comics in Boston and I think it's a very very difficult position to be in because you're playing to a male audience essentially and you're in a very male dominated scene and it's very difficult to create a female version of that and still be true to yourself but also try and get notoriety and ignition.

And yet they're awfully funny I think. OK here is another one of the comics His name is Jim. And according to his Boston Herald profile he's from Roslindale. His day job is a comic and he's been in the business for 21 years. Sure sure. OK. OK. Right we're going to. Do your duty. Now I personally don't know why you get six hundred and eighty six votes for being hilarious. Because I don't find that particularly funny. On the other hand toward the end his statistics are don't quit your day job these are the categories of voting. Hilarious funny not so funny don't quit your day job. Where is the first guy we played Dave Russo only got three hundred forty two malarious And I think it's really hilarious. And don't quit your day job. Eighty seven. Well you know what's interesting gender stuff is it's very similar to what started off in vaudeville with the stand up comic because it was all

ethnic based. You had the Irish comic the Jewish comic you know the minstrel show comics. So it's sort of an extension of that and always finds an audience. And what's interesting about this is also it's very local and everyone has gone to Revere Beach and has seen you know these these beautiful young women walking in the sand with high heels and going What the heck are they doing. And he just made a little little bit of a skit on it so. Again I think he's on to something is just not quite polished enough yet I think that you know when you have homegrown humor and then it refers to places around in the hometown that always attracts people to so I can see that. OK here's another comic kids this is Tyler. But the way I think is how you pronounce his name according to his profile he's from Portland Oregon. His day job is unknown but he's been in comedy for six years. I heard that that we're OK that we're focused on was that it wasn't cool that. To say OK

these children want your works. Thank you. That was. Close. Oh I'm OK I'm back. I think that's pretty well done but he didn't get very good ratings only 105 people found him malarious and one hundred twenty said Don't quit your day job. Well I think in this case I think some of the other comics were a little packed with friends calling I'm voting and he's from Oregon and he didn't get a lot of votes because of that. But you know he is doing a lot of the self-deprecation humor and he also is going back to his childhood where everyone feels like they're a little bit off that there's something wrong about them and everyone's kind of staring at them. And he did a very nice job of again doing that self-deprecating humor which is what a standup comic does. You go back to like someone like Woody Allen who always made fun of this neuroses and their and his neurotic behavior and then you've got someone like Tyler was talking about his eye patch and how you know it was

good I know not as bad as it didn't make any sense to him one of the things that I think should be brought up here and we're having you our film critic talk about this because the comedy people the people who are booking comics in this town would not touch this. But with a ten foot pole it's so fraught with politics it's amazing so nobody wants to come on and say what we're saying So-and-so is good so-and-so is bad because it's it's a far reaching scene I guess. Well you know I think politics has something to do with it too but you know. Humor is so subjective that when you're looking at it when you're inside the business if someone is having a successful career and you can't figure it out why that why that's funny. You don't want to say anything bad about them. So I think that there's something about you know some artist respectability or respecting the other artist a little bit in this kind of stepping back. So I agree it's really political but I think there's also some of that in there as well. You know one of the things I have learned from watching Last Comic Standing is how important I mean when you and I talk about these things with regard to films. Writing is yes and pacing and timing. You know you just cannot stand up there and just sort of be talking out of your

armpit. You get you've got to have something. Well the most important thing is to listen when you're a comic even though you're speaking you need to be listening to your audience because your audience is going to tell you what's working what's not working how to change things around and be able to respond to them and work with them. The really good comics will talk to the audience you know not all the time but they will they will respond to what's going on in the in the audience in some way and you take a look. Jon Stewart when he's doing his daily show we'll talk to the audience every once in one of his opening monologue. So I guess listening to your audience and then working your craft around with the audience is saying to you so you can say it back to them. I don't want to give anybody the impression that you know you're the only person that you are the last resort and having this conversation it was just that we know that you could talk about it and you were familiar with the comedy scene here in Boston. But I was actually quite surprised as maybe you were as we started to explore this about how political it is for anybody to comment. Well you know again listen let's think about what makes Boston humor work.

Part of it is the politics of it you know and part of it is the literacy of it. And part of it is the audience is a really sharp as well and it's a very diverse audience because it is a college town in a highly educated town. Boston is still one of the great breeding grounds for comics and you think about like Dane Cook and some of the other Louis C.K. who just got a show on Comedy Central. These guys are from Boston. And again So Boston is still the breeding ground along with Austin Los Angeles and San Francisco as a breeding ground for new young talent. And it's going to be very interesting to see how this new batch of comedians compare to that golden age of the Lenny Clarks and the Jimmy tingles and the Barry Crimmins is because they have a very they have very large shoes to fill. I agree with you I would have to say that. I know probably the Boston Herald did just for a fun thing but I found it very revealing to see you know exactly the kind of subject that these guys would decide to talk about and how they were in their growth period trying to get to the place where I see these guys on Last Comic Standing.

But their growth period some of them been in for six to ten. So you say along your growth here it had to be something that has to do with the politics of what's going on but it also has to do with the fact that you know they do have a day job and they're doing this in the party and you've got to give them credit for getting up there I mean I don't know. I mean you've been in front of crowds before the first couple times you get in front of a big crowd and you're doing something that's really you know new and different. It's pretty scary. It takes a lot of courage. I can't remember what you get as a result of I guess except for recognition. You know we were talking about that just before we went on air and there's nothing. It really is just the recognition and what you also have to remember these are very young comics in terms of their maturation in terms of comedy because they're trying to get their name out there are still plenty of other really good comics out there in Boston who are probably far from here that are not going to do that. Boston Herald the funniest minute because they're already established. This is this is the the single-A or the Double A ball of comedy. All right well let's there's nothing wrong with that that nothing wrong with what I know and it was a very very interesting

though as a film guy and I was looking at these videos and going oh you could use some editing. Well you know sometimes I found that the longer they went on I enjoyed it actually because I sort of got warmed up to your point and I think it's just another point too because a lot of these guys have 20 minute and 30 minute acts and you're only catching one minute of it and sometimes it takes a while to build up to these point to it to a very funny point. Which was your favorite. You know I kind I did like you know Jim Lewis Revere Beach thing. And I'll tell you why because I remember what as a young man going up to Revere Beach and I come from the country I came from a very small town in Connecticut and going up to the very beach to taste my first Kellys clams for the first time and it was the only one then. And seeing these beautiful young girls in high heels and tall here walking on the beach in the sand I'm going why are you in high heels. It just didn't make any sense. So I kind of brought me back when I heard Jim said did you vote for him. But I think I should go for Dave. Yeah he was he was pretty funny and he was very good with his physical comedy I really liked the

excellent and I'm always a little you know queasy when somebody goes into what I perceive to be racial humor who is not of the group. Yeah but how do you handle it. Well it was it was funny and by the way he was the one in his routine mention the fact as you point out that there wasn't much diversity in the crowd nor in the people who were participating and he probably would have liked a much broader broader diverse crowd. Probably would have understood him a little better. I agree with you. I think that people should take a look at Last Comic Standing to get a sense of what you know you see those those men and women really working to really polish their acts you know that's a good thing. That's an interesting point because when I was doing my research on this there was a point somebody made and one of the articles I was reading about how you know 50 years ago when you were a comic involved though or even earlier you had an act you worked the act you hone the act in front of a crowd. And that became your act. Then when radio and TV came along you had to change your act to keep it fresh all the time so you were changing your act much more frequently almost on a daily basis which created a new kind of comic and

probably changed how the standup comics became the standup comics that we know today. I think that is an extremely important point because in the various iterations of the last comic standing you see how much material these people are burning through. And then it's all out there now on the web and everywhere else as we've seen it on the show. That's a lot to give up to be participating in a contest smell of thoss and YouTube and some of these oh yes man it goes quick. OK. But if you like comedy and you like to laugh go online and take a look at it. Bostons funniest minute by The Boston Herald I've been speaking with our film contributor Guerin daily daily as film critic and host of the gerund Daily Show on 15 50 W in t in. And our contributor Guerin as always a pleasure to have you on. This is a gas I love this. This is the Calla Crossley Show where production of WGBH radio Boston NPR station for news and culture.