Advocates; Should We Lift Our Embargo On Trade With Castro's Cuba?; 20

There is not turned on you know. Miami Florida for the fifth largest city in America. With an average winter temperature of 68 degrees. A playground for tourists home for more than one million people. Including 200000 Cubans many of whom came here after Fidel Castro's rise to power 10 miles away

in Coral Gables as the University of Miami. With more than 16000 students. It is the largest private university in the southeast. Our setting tonight for the. Most important. Motherly. Body from. Place. To. Place. How. Come. I'm Roger Fisher subsidy once again for Victor will be back next week. Every Sunday night this time live in coast to coast the advocates look at a problem in terms of a practical choice. Tonight the problem is Cuba. The practical choice is this. Should we now lift the embargo on trade with Cuba. Mr. Otero. Yes we should because the embargo has not and will not achieve its goals. It's an absurd policy that has to change. You will hear tonight from one of the men who

engineered the embargo and why he has changed his mind. We have a film interview with the foreign minister of Chile on why he can no longer support us. With us tonight in the studio. Hello Mesa Lago once served in the Cuban government. And Richard Fagan a Latin American expert and political scientist from Stanford University. Thank you Mr. BAKER. Mr. Pell our embargo helps curb Castro's ability to promote subversion in the hemisphere. It is our only bargaining tool in getting Castro to give up his military links with the Soviet Union and resuming trade would be the first step and reversing our 10 year policy of opposition to Castro's brand of totalitarian communism. This reversal would deny to the Cuban people any hope of a Democratic replacement. With me tonight is deputy assistant secretary of state for inner American Affairs Robert a her which will tell us why the embargo serves the interests of the hemisphere. And Jose Torrey and Jose font who will tell us why the embargo serves the interest of the Cuban people. Thank you. Should we now lift the embargo. The we in our question

refers to the United States and other members of the OAS the Organization of American States who for six to eight years have prohibited all trade with Cuba. Where we are today is best understood by looking at how we got there. March one thousand fifty two. In Cuba Tista takes power with Army support to Del Castro a young attorney responds to the coup d'etat. He organizes a small group of men and women who attack the army barracks and Sunday I go to court. The attack fails. Most of the rebels are captured and tortured some are killed. Castro escapes and is later seized and tried secretly. In his defense he says sentenced me it is not important. History will absolve me. In two years he is released from prison. He goes to Mexico and organizes a guerrilla force December 1956. Castro returns to Cuba with his followers. For two years Castro and his guerrillas harass the government forces eventually gaining enough

strength to overthrow but. By January 959 Castro is able to make a triumphant entrance into of Anna and the revolution begins. The American owned utilities and telephone our national lives. The revolutionary government forms a tribunal to try Batiste officials. Some 500 are condemned and shot. American public opinion is shocked. Charges of communism are hurting Castro from the United States. While exiled Cubans are permitted to carry out raids from Florida. Castro charges the CIA with acts of sabotage including blowing up a munition a ship in Havana Harbor. Us own refineries refused to refine Soviet oil and are nationalized. January 1961. Castro charges the U.S. embassy with being a spy base and demands that the staff be drastically reduced. President Eisenhower breaks diplomatic relations. With them. Takes charge of the U.S. embassy.

But the direct confrontation between the U.S. and Cuba comes in April 1961. In the U.S. It is known as the Bay of Pigs the invasion is a failure. And Castro emerges more powerful than ever. In January 1962 the Organization of American States after considerable U.S. pressure imposes an embargo on trade with Cuba. Denied access to most American markets with Canada and Mexico are the exceptions. Castro has been able to survive economically by trading with the rest of the world. But the cost is high. Soviet Russia has been subsidizing the Cuban sugar industry at a cost of nearly one million dollars a day. Should we now make a decision to resume trade with Cuba. There are three critical ingredients in any political decision. What people think reasoned arguments and what people do. We're about to hear some reasoned arguments. We're going to give you a chance to do something. But first let's take a look at what people think on the question we're discussing

tonight the Advocate's has just conducted a national public opinion poll. And here are the results. Seventeen percent said trade with Cuba. 63 percent said no don't. And 20 percent had no opinion. Let's get the opinion of this audience of a little over 100 people invited at random from among those in the Miami area who written the Advocate's or otherwise expressed interest in the program just before the broadcast we took a first vote. Maybe see the results please of that vote. Trade with Cuba. 83 Yes 56 no in 61 not voting at this time. Let me see that percentages please. It's 42 percent yes now let's compare that with a national public opinion poll which was 17 Well there's as this audience is more firmly for trade than the national public opinion. After the arguments we'll take a second vote of this group to see if anybody has changed his mind and what happened to those who are in the middle. Sitting next to me is

Senator Claiborne Pell of Rhode Island a ranking Democratic member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. When and if we change our policy that committee may well play a key role in it. Senator Pell is one of the I guess he's the last member of Congress to have been in Havana some 10 years ago. Senator I know you have an open mind on our question tonight but what has been your thinking on trade questions like this. Well I thought about it in connection with trade with other communist nations like China. Russia and European countries have always believed the best national interest is served by contact by trade. I have not formed an opinion as yet whether there are any special circumstances that would mean that this policy would be incorrect vision of a Cuba. You have not spoken out on the Cuban question at all. I do know I have and the others here open mind well we're not asking you to decide tonight on that question. You're here to hear both sides of the case. Please feel free to ask questions of our advocates or of our witnesses. We ask each advocate to present not his personal opinions but rather what he considers

important and responsible arguments. And now to the case of Mr. Otero. What is the case for resuming trade with Cuba. Senator Paul in the early 1960s Cuba was mistakenly considered one of Americas most serious problems the American public saw Cuba as a threat to its security and typically we overreacted to the supposed threat. One of President Kennedy's closest advisors Richard Goodwin was affected by this emotionalism. But I think I was a little bit caught up and yet feeling that somehow this is a great problem. I don't know why I've got a problem now that I think back on it. Mr Goodwin was a strong supporter of the embargo when it was first imposed. He told us this week that he now feels that the policy was absurd and should be changed major purpose of it was of course to try to undermine economically the Cuban regime in the hope that Castro might follow be thrown out of office by any communist elements in Cuba that is clearly has not happened

and if anything Castro is more firmly in control and he is the time the Kennedy administration came in with a why didn't I go back. Yeah I hate that I just don't want to do it and I don't know how you're going to get there I'm not you know but have it over. Yeah yeah. No not at all. Show you where I am a policy that has failed and so obviously failed in its basic purpose or at least needs to be re-examined and my own judgement to be reversed and found not to work from the very beginning. Soviet Union would give whatever support was necessary but more important the very fact that we were putting this pressure on probably helped Castro and other countries made him look like a hero if anyone was trying to pin

him down on me. The money into the monopoly. Game and. Maybe the real Monaco by the operators of. Nearly doubling the greediness will fail because I am equal and the motto quite frankly very early for young mom. We have missed a good one as the impact prevented Castro from exporting revolution. I don't think that can be demonstrated in the five years again and really but overall a bit of work going on here in the rubble of the Fargo kept. At it and we're here to finance the nation and money is that ready

act. We. Are getting another we could get out. The fact is the development going out of the way I like what I have put out. By the local government by the government of the country back together with our military act a debacle it had nothing whatsoever to do with it. For one it seems to me that the fate of make Cuba totally dependent on the Soviet Union for there are kind of in order for the Q and for the call to relate United. They probably prevented from doing so by that because of that the Soviet Union that we found out of Europe. Why even Germany now are going to be there for we keep hearing that in the future power that the pattern will be of the after the Viet unit and all they could think that the FBI really are one of the

one of the if I go over the border. Thank you. With me tonight is Dr. Camillo messa laga. Presently the assistant director for the Center for Latin American Studies at the University of Pittsburgh formerly an official of the Castro government and a noted Latin American economist at Reza like ever glad to have you here. Doc there was a lot of the embargo was designed to weaken the Cuban economy has it been successful in doing so. Not a has not been successful essentially because the economic problems of Cuba are a direct result of internal mistakes of policy and north of the embargo. That Cuba has been able to get the materials and supplies and weapons from this also is blocked. They have been able to get spare parts. Through triangular trade from Canada and Western Europe. They have been able to get transportation equipment like railroad

bosses and vessels from Spain Great Britain and France and they have been able to expand trade with Western Europe. Their problem is not the embargo the problem has been that Cuba has not as sort of big enough to trade with. But the doctor has them back over at the United States I think that the embargo have heard the United States no matter when we have created a bad image of this conflict abroad particularly in the third world the United States has been presented as a big Colossus. Frankly sprang a small country and even worse we have a way of really cause a role because we have been unsuccessful in a strangled Number Number two there in Bahrain has been used as a scapegoat as it was seen in the two speeches right now. Do you justify eternal mistakes. Number three the environment has created friction between the United States and Song

life in Western Europe such as value Great Britain this country United States have sown also trade alliance vessels and this country have been exerting pressure to impede trade between these countries some of these countries and Cuba and also I think that there has been some frictions within the OAS which no member so recent member such as your maker and also with your eminence were recently and finally I will say that they embargo have strengthening. So interfering is in this image fear factor back because they very clearly are some questions about to miss a lot of this first. Dr. Mason laga let's just clarify one or two things right. Start the United States is not alone in imposing this embargo is it not. There are the abode of the Organization of American states voted in 1964 to impose an embargo isn't that true correct. And over two thirds of the member nations of the Organization of American states voted for the embargo and are supporting

that embargo today. Isn't that also correct. That's correct but I would like to clarify you are your question. We're not I just don't see what you just told me we are not discussing here what is it proceeded to eliminate environment. We are discussing whether the embargo has being efficient or not passive policy. But I want to clarify what I mean. Let me finish on an embargo I think I have been wanting me for being a very slight point which is increasing our cost of transportation between Cuba and the Soviet Block. But that's all what have resulted. Well but I just want to clarify the point that the other nations of the hemisphere have supported this embargo for their own reasons and not just because the United States went along. We want to get their point out on the record. Now you've written a good deal about the incidence of forced labor in Cuba. Can you tell us a little bit about that. For instance you've spoken of a term man years of forced labor in Cuba. Now how many man years of forced labor schoolchildren grammar school children occurred last year here.

It is quite difficult to say how how many schoolchildren. Because he's not as well structure as all or sections of the economy are socialists. Shall we say workers etc.. That's why I can answer that question. But would you say this is a significant amount. Schoolchildren stymies taken up and forced labor. Yes he has been entering and therefore they are both working internationally. OK now can you give us an estimate of how many man years of forced labor involved for unemployed women and. Again this is so difficult to say that eventually yes the days of basics are not very accurate so I don't see I can answer that question. Now how about the number of man years of political prisoners I do recall I think from your article some figure of 200000 man years labor by political prisoners that's correct the percent of the labor force now but that means that. Can you explain a little bit. Two hundred thousand man years means that at least two hundred thousand people work

for a year as political prisoners for a particular period of time in that right. No. First up we were talking of political prisoners there. First of all I don't mind sadly how many political prisoners are in Cuba for years ran from 20000 to 100000. So there is an estimate I was and on what if I were that person I have put in perhaps about 12 hours per day. OK there are some to your final question just very quickly. What constitutes a political crime in your book but you can get Center for celebrity. Well I am not I was a lawyer in Cuba but I am not aware whether this is the correct definition today. Why did you leave Cuba than when I left Cuba in 1961 because I was in disagreement with the political system within Cuba. I still I am thank you. Thank you very much start tonight. Thank you. For

her. I've. The power. Dr. May saliva has told you how the embargo has not worked. I don't know what the political prisoners have to do with it but we have seen it has backfired the embargo made us look ridiculous. It's about time to lift the embargo and follow the example of Canada and Mexico. And I would like to read direct quotes if I may. Mexico never adopted the embargo in the first place as the foreign secretary said in 1964 the interruption of relations would be of no use to anyone in any way. And even more would jeopardize indispensable communications Canada never adopted the embargo. Prime Minister Trudeau said at Washington last year and I'd like to read that quote. Most countries in the world trade with a lot of governments with policies of which they do not approve. One of the best vehicles of understanding and closer relationships is trade in international relations as in domestic relations. The catch word is

communication. The key word is dialogue. Now sir two of our allies in this hemisphere Latin American countries many of whom one willingly support of the embargo we engage in some arm twisting to get it through the OAS are now beginning to speak their mind. In recent months Venezuela Bolivia Peru Trinidad tobacco and Chile have all called for a re-examination of our relations with the country. Now. One of the leaders of the rising tide of Latin American opposition to the embargo is Chile's foreign minister Gabriel Valdez. He gave us this exclusive interview last week at his home in Santiago. Nothing worst I think for America to try to put the responsibility in different places. That's where they yeah really Castro is not responsible for revolutions in that in America. Revolution exist before Castro

is not responsible for many actions for the anarchists in Latin America for lack of development. They were there exist before Castro and it will exist after us if now they coexistence. It's a practice. United States has agreed with the union system and that is good for peace with China communist China in a very very imaginative action. We think that that is good for peace. When Mr. Willy Brandt the chancellor of Germany is trying the German problem that is when the United States

would draw from them. That is good for peace. But Juba remains as a unique completely free. That is not good for peace. That is not good for America and is a Latin American country. We cannot continue having a country in Latin America absolutely outside of connection with us. This is not normal. This is not saying this is not logical. We have to find a way to combine these cells that the munition of the Cuban people the nonintervention and the respect of ideologies. Richard Clarke is a professor of political science at Stanford University author of the book an exile and a man who has visited Cuba three times in the last few years. At the request of the State Department.

Are glad to have you here in Miami with us tonight. Dr. Fagan Why must we change policy. Let me make three points in the first place. Over the last decade and I'm speaking about the decade of the 60s we have followed what I would consider a disastrous and certainly uncreative policy in Latin America. Just to note some of the things that have happened in 1961 the Bay of Pigs a disastrous episode for the Kennedy administration 965 the massive intervention invasion of the Dominican Republic in 1969. Governor Rockefeller sent by a governor sent by President Nixon on a goodwill and fact finding tour of Latin America could not even visit two countries which were considered showcases of the Alliance for Progress. Venezuela and Chile it's simply time for a change to break out of those policies. Second point that I'd like to make. Is that. President Nixon has called for a change in a very impressive speech on October 30 first Nelson Rockefeller called for a change in his report and we simply must begin this change some time. There's been a rhetoric from political figures there's been rhetoric from public figures there's been rhetoric from

lots of people there hasn't been any action. And one place to begin this action is the question with the Cuban revolution right now Doctor. How do you feel we should change our policy towards Cuba to begin with with the embargo. We should end the embargo. Let me point out that ending the embargo does not necessarily in any sense mean picking up the trade a burden that's now borne by the Soviets and by others it simply means letting political nature take its course in this hemisphere. It means letting the full play of forces come free once again to see what in fact resolution there will be for the Cuban policy it means diplomacy instead of what we have now which is mind diplomacy. It means small events perhaps accumulating into a saner and healthier kind of policy in the hemisphere it's frozen it's time to break it free. Thank you Mr. Baker just some questions from. Yes. Before I began to talk to Dr. Fagan I'd like to just point out to Senator Kyl a few items about Mr. Rotarians film. Mr. Terry innovates by producing several examples of hemispheric

shifts in opinion that the whole hemisphere feels this way this is not necessarily so. Other nations Brazil Argentina for instance are still strongly in favor of continued embargo and blockade of Cuba. Second it's very easy for Chile to come around and make this saying that it abstained from the original vote to impose a blockade. And secondly Chile is a nation distant from the dangers of Cuban subversion. It's never really filled itself under the gun and you have a question for Mr. Han. Yes I do. Now Mr. Fagan you said that. You said several things that interest me one is that our policy now is beginning to wear thin now. Mr. Pell the senator phil is interested in trying to find out whether Cuba is somehow a special case. That's different from our relations with China and other other communist nations. Now in your article you said that Castro is totally dependent on the umbilical cord of a tie economic ties with the Soviet Union is in fact correct.

Two comments first of all I'll take my witnesses liberty to point out that what you said for instance of how she lay holds in just the opposite sense for Venezuela Venezuela was the country that brought the sanctions against Cuba in the OAS and it is the president of Venezuela President Calderon who has called within the last three days for a reopening of renegotiation of the Cuban case. But you forget the important condition he placed on that call that is done within the context of the OAS which I don't want is necessarily are not going to show that Cuba renounce its aims of subversion and intervention in the hemisphere. And I remembered all that convention walk the earth as it unsaid is that we have evidence now that Cuba has in fact by its policy by its actions renounced this he did not call for Pastor the chancellor and he called for a condition if I may correct you and I think we'll have a chance to explore whether Cuba is in fact pronounced in the later part of that you know they're applied this notion of the umbilical cord. There's no question. And the cost to receives aid from the Soviet Union of course he received from the Soviet Union a normal figure posited is about a million dollars a day. This is approximately what

we spend in a couple dozen hours in Vietnam and it should not be seen I think as anything that looms large in the scale of worldwide trading floor of the Soviet scale of I would say it does not not for the country of the world that has the second largest gross national product a million dollars a day is certainly something they can absorb and something which it is clearly in our interest to diminish in some fashion and that is your car interested in trying to reduce the burden on the Soviet Union. Absolutely. This is no way whatsoever to conduct a diplomacy to punish and make difficult and make as financially risky as possible. The conduct of foreign affairs we can punish the Soviet Union if one is interested in that obviously by building missile so they have to build anti missiles which are a hundred times as expensive as any trader and none of them sound like they were debating time talking about it as a question for you that I'm surprised because generally speaking we've felt that if you can drain the strength of one's opponents that's probably to your own national.

I'd always thought one of the reasons for the embargo was the fact that a billion dollars was being drained Russia yes or I think it is one of the reasons and I think it's a kind of false logic because it was precisely this kind of false logic which brought us to the confrontation in 1962. And this is something only and it will of course the same logic that the Soviet Union is using now with us in Vietnam that we're being drained some 80 billions as to their best not to see that conflict not coming to attend the nation. Absolutely but I don't take their behavior as a point of departure for the rules of national interest applied. Yes but I would say that this is minimal in those terms it's not even a good argument from that point of view because it is not Vietnam in terms of Soviet economy. Yes sir. Minute this fake and you've written a good deal about the the extent of political control inside Cuba. Now can you tell us how many newspapers were in Cuba before Castro came to power and there were dozens. And how

many are there now. There are about three national and about three three local. Now what constitutes a political crime in Cuba. I asset in this and there's a lot as well. I would point out which I what I think he pointed out very well that what constitutes a political crime. He's totally irrelevant to the question of our relation to this the same question could be asked about the Soviet Union which has in its history executed a thousand persons for every person who's been incarcerated probably. Well it's relevant in the question of what kind of conditions occur inside the country and it's useful for the American people to know what kind of man we're dealing with. I fail to tell you is that you have a nice what is. Well I'm talking about the relevance Well let me decide the relevance if you can answer the question What is what's your what's your precise point Mr. BAKER. My question is what constitutes a political crime in this. And within Cuba that would involve walking I take it your answer Dr. Fagan is whatever it constitutes whatever kind of whatever they choose to constitute as a as a political crime clearly. So there is no intangibles no definite standard just whatever the government feels like can be a political problem.

No it's not that simple. Well thank you very much and thank you thank you. Thank you. Thank you. For. Resuming trade with Cuba. And now let's turn to the other side of the question Mr. Baker will you give us the case against resuming trade with Cuba. Now Senator Perle Mr. Rotarians witnesses say in general that the embargo has hurt the Cuban people. Well so many Castro in power by letting him and letting him use us as a scapegoat for his mistakes. But the embargo has become a threadbare excuse after 10 years of mismanagement and economic stagnation. And Castro is in trouble now and now is no time to give him some help by lifting the embargo. Now Mr. Goodwin can sit quietly in the fire in the in his cabin in the Maine woods and opine about what we should do in Cuba. But we have here tonight a man who sits on the hot seat of policy decision.

He's a man who has to make these kind of decisions and be responsible for now and still be very interested know why a caster is in trouble now I understand he's still pretty solidly in general are refugee witnesses will speak to that in a minute. But I like to call now Robert Byrd's who is deputy assistant secretary for inner American affairs in the Department of State to which you're very glad to have you here from the State Department and I can just mention some of the path. Mr. Horowitz. What is the basis of our policy towards Cuba. There are two reasons why we have a trade embargo against Cuba. The first is Castro's. Publicly announced policy of exporting his revolution by overthrowing other governments and Hemisphere. The second reason. Is the military ties between Cuba and the Soviet Union which presents a danger to the peace and security of this hemisphere. Such as we experienced in 1062 during the missile crisis.

Now Mr Goodwin says that policies failed. Is he right. No he's by no means right. I think our policy has gone a long way toward accomplishing our goals and I think we should be very clear and be not be mistaken that our policy is not designed to bring down Castro or overthrow the construct government. Our policy is designed to limit cost Joe's ability to export his revolution and overthrow other governments. And the second part of our policy is to discourage the Soviet Union from other adventures in this hemisphere. Now Mr Goodwin says if you can't stop the spread of an idea but has a you know has Castro given up at least the spread of arms and men in Latin America for subversion on the on the contrary. Today there are young Latin American men who are being trained as a vs. in Cuba. They are learning guerrilla warfare and they are learning terrorism for the city's. Funds and arms are being transferred human agents are being infiltrated into the hemisphere. Not too long ago a high ranking Cuban Communist Party

member in Havana said privately it's a mistake to think that we have abandon our policy of exploiting the revolution. We are continuing at a lower level. But nonetheless we are continuing. Now what is the cost of the hemisphere resuming trade with Cuba. Well I think we should be clear on a couple of things Mr. BAKER. First the United States as well as the other countries of the hemisphere would welcome. If you go back to the American family of nations provided. In abandon this policy of subverting other governments and provided it cut its military ties with the Soviet Union. However there is no evidence that this that because Joe is about to do this the Cuban government has not sought to re-enter the American family of nations or the interim American system. As long as Cuba retains his policy it would be foolish on the part of the United States to abandon the trade embargo policy. Otherwise what we

would be doing would be strengthening Castro strengthening his ability to export his revolution and we would relieve the Soviet Union of the costly financial burden that Cuba represents. And finally as you know resumption of trade will mean trade missions to the various Latin American countries and it would not all be surprising if Castro used these trade missions which is a typical communist disguise for infiltrating agents and subverting these governments. It's her it's I know Mr. Terry has some questions for you and Senator Helms to Terry wants to start. Thank you. Mr. her which you say that Castro is training revolutionaries in Cuba is that the same kind of training we give to right wing governments in this country at our military installations. No not Oscar. All right you say that they're being smuggled into Latin American countries to subvert Is that correct. Right. How many Latin American countries have gone Communist since Castro took over and killed them. There would have probably been more if our policies had I would have been as they are but there are none. Is that correct. That's correct and we're going to try to keep it that right we're going to examine it and market fine now so we need you

back so that Latin American countries cannot determine for themselves who they want to govern them on how they want to be governed right now they say much of the of the. The are and. On the contrary the same Latin American countries were the ones who voted in favor of the embargo with a little lamb twisting from Noah's Ark promise to America Bolivia Peru and Trinidad Tobago Jamaica Canada Mexico Chile they all want to open some kind of a dialogue is this if we ignore them. I think if you listen carefully to to Mr. Baker you would have heard that all these all these countries have placed conditions upon any talks with Castro Cuba. They are the same conditions that we laid down there's nothing different same conditions we like as what we maintain the blockade these other companies don't. That's not true it's not true. Does any of the other countries have ships float around Cuba to keep things out. Any other country not a physical block I just anyhow they don't want to drop any other country stock ships coming in to witness its ports.

There are no other Latin American countries with the exception of Microsoft where the senator has a question. Wouldn't it would not be correct to say that a level of export of subversives and of subversion from Cuba to the countries of Latin America is substantially less now than it was five years ago. Senator Paul I would say yes it is less but probably not substantially partly because of the subversion is not concentrated in the urban areas rather than in the rural areas and therefore the amount of people needed for training and so forth are less so in other words even with the embargo we have the same amount of subversion now that we had five years ago so the embargo hasn't contained anything I thought I said last you probably had about your same amount but I said Look side let me ask you this. Do we trade with Iran Curtain countries as we do and we don't try and tell them that they can't have ties with Russia that they can't have communist government still with us right. Right. But we do think that Castro because he's 90 miles off our coast should have the kind of government that I state department tells him he can have that right.

No you're absolutely wrong let me repeat for you I've never said anything about the nature of the government. I have said two things that the State Department holds one is the export of revolution that is interfering in other people's business and in other countries. The other is military ties with the Soviet Union. Neither of those have anything to do with how the Cuban people have arranged their own societies and I think we ought to be very clear on that was no terror. Now let me ask our certain senator has a I just destroyed the two cars here one. Don't we interfere in other people's countries. Also on occasion and try to change how I got through. Oh I know I don't I don't like Senator we have a nonstop policy of calling for revolution in any country in the world. Announced. Them out. Through. One last question sir. Did you support the intervention of 20000 Marines in Havana and the Dominican Republic.

No I did not you did not you're opposed to that. That's right. Thank you very much Mr. Horowitz want to thank you. Just get back. Through. Thank you Senator. One index of the dissatisfaction that the people within Cuba must feel for this regime is the extent to which they will try to leave but this threat was used by two people who went 90 miles from Cuba to get to this and get to the United States since 1959. Fourteen thousand people have come by boat or raft right to get to the United States from Cuba. Over 1 million people have left Cuba or are waiting to leave. Now if you took the same amount of people in terms the United States that's 30 million people would have left the United States think of what a mass exodus that would mean to us. Now the two men who came over on this thread were joined by a third. He was killed by machine gunfire. The two men were 18 and 20 years old and they were

both workers. It's not the rich and the loon who are getting out of Cuba now I'd like to call Jose Torii Hunter to the stand he's a long time leader not a long time leader but he's now a leader of the Cuban exile movement in the United States. Still I'll tell you A.J. we're glad to have you here. Thank you. A senior Tory on tape why were the refs why were these refugees and uses ref and others that came over opposed to Castro's regime. Very simply because they were taking away the right of dissent. In other words when Castro went on the television and said what would be the election for anybody. And that means roughly at least a million people who have left Cuba felt that once the right of the center was taken from them everything else was useless. Now would Castro be able to claim a moral victory if we abandon our embargo

policy. Absolutely yes because in my opinion it would undermine the confidence of the other United States allies. That. Would probably feel that you haven't followed your policy whereas you have asked a lot of people who follow politics now what would be the effect on the people within Cuba if we abandon our embargoed demoralise. They would feel betrayed just like the million people who are outside of Cuba. Now why is it important not to abandon the embargo now. Because I think that Castro at the present moment is undergoing the biggest crisis since he's been in power and I think the time would be wrong to give him a hand at a time when he's practically on the run. Thank you very much Mr. turned your witness for cross-examination. Mr. Jay if you could you tell me Sir when did you leave Cuba.

On April 7 nineteen hundred and sixty and you were not political research. You've been out of there 10 years the answer is that Iraq and Sir do you think that an embargo that has been in effect for eight years and that has not toppled the Castro government that has not stopped the spread of any revolution in and of itself is a worthwhile tool to be continued. I would say yeah you were I will give you a reason for basically all human industry is based on the United States machinery which they are probably buying through Canada England. But it's been made a lot more costly to them and therefore they have undermined our hold on the Cuban people. But the Cuban people still have Castro in power eight years after the blockade. Now around alright I beg to disagree is not in part very violently. Castro had the Cuban people under a yoke. Right. We're not entirely different thing I point

something out sir. Of of the not just the trainees we had to get one thing straight. We are not pro-Castro. Let's understand it with procurement people as you well know this kind of thing right here that forces people who want freedom that forces people who want to be free to get on something like this and risk their lives for freedom is tragic and should stop. Do you feel sir that if the American government. Lifted the embargo ships were coming in and out of the hive as the American consulate and embassy was open. Don't you think that instead of 160 Cubans a day being able to go out on a rail after we might be able expand that we might be able to make access and access from Forth from Cuba more free so we won't drive with desperate people to use this kind of a thing to escape from a time when. The.

World hear their answer. Please do so very soon which is very point in the first place. If the renewing of trade would cause a lot more people to leave Cuba. I don't think it's how from Cuba. If the renewal of trade would enable the Cuban people to be free and have elections I would be for it but I don't think you're well aware of that. We're in a position when we merely disagree on what will help the Cuban people. It's obvious the embargo hasn't helped them want to force this on the rest of life on this. Don't you think in fairness to those thousands of Cubans who will be driven to this in the next few years we ought to lift the embargo and take a chance at dialogue with that Cuban Brothers and hope you're going to cite them. Wolf. I think Mr. Terry that you're being a little bit unrealistic but I want

realistic then the impact on the senator as a question that I really from where I've been sitting I've been hearing people say for years carry on the same policy. We're almost there. It's just we see light at the end of the tunnel. What is your hard evidence that you believe Castro is a bit on the ropes. Excuse me sir what is your reason for believing that Castro was on the ropes in the first place. Guys truth be making promises and promises and promises. Most political I have never heard. I want a promise you can't have you. Not only Cuba but I mean the promises that you make to become senator. I try to keep up. I think I'd write ception at night. If you try to get into the best of your ability but when you fail you're not cussing the people who are voting for you any Hartcher. But when Castro fails and he continues to create more and more hardship and more intolerance Ribadu have any more specific thought than

that because this is the same thought I've heard of that five years ago for two and one. But do you have any specific evidence that this unrest in Cuba over the years might have happened to have seen. An intelligence report made by a very good intelligence agency of a very serious European government wherein it states that although there is no organized opposition in Cuba against the Castro riddim there is. The feeling amongst the people who have canvassed the country that 90 percent of the people are against Can't treat Castro which is entirely opposite from what you heard during the first year second year third year. Because I for one told the U.S. government at the time of the Bay of Pigs invasion that it was a great make political mistake and I Time has proven me right. Thank you very much Mr. Torrey ente we're glad to have you here. Sarah Palin the critical question is what lifting the embargo would do to the Cuban people their sense of

the psychology of that shift in our policy. Not so much the economics but it's a political act and what a change in policy would do. I'd like to call a young Cuban who has a vision of what Cuba could be like. Jose Fonte is twenty two years old and he has been a study student in this country for several years and would like to return to his homeland so it's a father glad to have you here for joining us tonight. Almost upon what are your hopes for Cuba's future. I would say very firmly that I do not believe that any people and. I seek happiness without the freedom of mind to seek for truth. The freedom of mobility to seek for life. The freedom of thing to changing that what we finally stay. So self-knowledge and freedom of existence that this country says they provide for its inhabitants.

And that freedom. Must exist in a nation to go forward. Furthermore I believe that with the experience of such a junk nation like Cuba has had. The tremendous knowledge of a system which we call capitalism which up to 1959 we had pretty much MUCH OF A knowledge. Secondly the tremendous experience which the Cuban revolution has brought about to the Cuban people. The mines that have been created in the U.S.. We should feel. Reactionary attitudes at this moment of a man like the mantras have been cultivated in their youth outside of Cuba. I think they will blend in they will create a hybrid formula the structure of their house is going to be one of the solutions to their will I don't know believe that communism or capitalism or anything is necessarily the best of all I want I'm just so tired that after one of the classic questions are how old were you when you left Cuba I was 12 years old 12 so you haven't

been back there in 10 years I understand. So it's fair to say you really don't speak for the Cuban use today. I try to keep in touch very much with the Cuban youth. Let me ask a question sir if you were able to go back to Cuba tomorrow if Castro were overthrown and you could go back to Cuba tomorrow. And we had a government set up that was acceptable to the Cuban people and it was acceptable to the United States of America. And in a few years the United States decided because we have refugees this government is no longer acceptable to us. Would you was a freak who took part in the election of that government want the United States to tell you that government cannot exist because we don't approve it. You must be made to suffer. Is that the kind of freedom. I don't. Disagree with the Cuban situation because the United States agrees. I disagree because I know that there are seven million inhabitants who have been driven like slaves which have no rights of any sort to day have the right. So

I agree with you too much. That. Freedom is the. Thing we both agree freedom is what we need for the solitary we're going to ration is how does the embargo keep people and how change very short answer. Well see I don't take it as an economic good point of view because I do not believe that Cuba will exist as it is for much longer. Fine so the bagger wasn't helping. Well see I am going to if you are going to train my men thank you very much. We'll talk about it on the show. Thank you very much. Just fine. Thank you. To a 30 second just very briefly Senator so an inefficient dictatorship will sell the seeds of its own destruction if we only have the patience to let them grow and mature. If we lift the embargo right now that would give aid and comfort to Castro when he needs it most. All we have to do is just wait him out. And we shouldn't trade embargo for we should

lift the embargo for nothing we should wait and get something for. The store target or whether he said you haven't heard one single argument I've proposed tonight by our opponents as to why you should list the lift the embargo what effect you've heard is a lot of things we all agree on including freedom. But the fact of the matter is that you don't wait out dictatorships. We haven't succeeded in doing it Russia in Greece in Spain or in Vietnam and it seems to me as if we were more. Powerful. We will. Have. You. Back will. Have a dialogue with the Cuban people and let's help them as people to people rather than government to govern us one. Time for any of you who are undecided to make up your mind. Should we now trade with Cuba. As you heard there are risks and benefits in deciding either way. If we now resume trade with Cuba we take a first step toward reconciliation. We recognize the right of self-determination that we preach and we bury a foreign policy based at a set on punishment. But resuming

trade runs the risk of strengthening the economy every scene which was supported which has been supporting revolutions in Latin America which is unacceptable to many Cubans and to Americans. We decide the other way if we keep the embargo we continue to show our disapproval of the Castro regime and we discourage a violent approach to social problems and other Latin American countries. But this of course imposes economic hardship on other Cubans. It runs the risk of further isolating Cuba from the rest of the western hemisphere and of strengthening the Soviet role on the ottoman. With this choice in mind let's now take a second vote of the audience here in Miami. What each of you please pick up the voting box and be prepared to vote when I give the signal. I'll remember to hold the voting lever down while I count. Get ready for the second vote. The question is should we now trade with Cuba. Vote now. Three to. One. Let's go. Now before we look at the results. How would you vote.

Think about the choice whether you want to lift the embargo or continue it. You can make your position felt you can vote by writing to us the Advocate's Box nine hundred seventy eight Boston 0 0 21 34. We will tabulate your views and we'll make them known to Senator Pell and every other senator and congressman. Please let us know the station on which you heard this broadcast. If you usually don't write letters you aren't alone. One Colorado you were told us I've never written in response to a television show prior to this whether I like to admit it or not. It must be because I was not sufficiently concerned. A man in Philadelphia wrote I've never written to a TV program before. The advocates should become an important and regular forum for public debate on America's problems. We hope that you too think of the advocates not just as a television program but as your public debate. Be a participant not a spectator. And now to the views of the audience here in Miami on the first vote. Before the argument the number of voting each way. Let's see that again if we can on the

display we see the first vote on the display. It was originally 83 Yes 56 no 61 no opinion. And now may we see the impact of the arguments. Will you please put up the second vote now if you can have it. Wow. The second vote shifted to one hundred twenty four in favor of trade. Forty six against and only 30 undecided. This morning just taken is not a scientific sample of national public opinion. It is only what happened in this one though it is far more important is what you do remember that address the Advocate's box 1978 Boston 0 0 twenty one thirty four. Two weeks ago we debated the problem of foreign aid. As of yesterday more than 2000 of you had written in 28 percent were for more foreign aid and 69 percent were for

less. Three percent expressed other views. These results are being sent to Undersecretary Richardson who was with us that night. On November 9th the advocates debated the question should we prohibit lawsuits over auto accidents and have each driver buy insurance for his own injuries. Two thirds of you wrote in favor of the proposal. The results of that mail in and some of the letters themselves went to our guest that night Mr. Richard Stuart superintendent of insurance of New York State. Mr. Stewart's recommendations to Governor Rockefeller for a new no fault insurance system which would prohibit a typical personal injury lawsuit is about to be made public. Mr. Stewart. The New York state insurance department has now finished a careful study of auto liability insurance. Our report. Concludes that the present system is slow. Wasteful cruel and unfair.

If you as a consumer. Want to get your money's worth from auto insurance. And if you want to chance to get what you need if you're ever in an accident. Than this present system has got to be changed completely. The New York report recommends an entirely new system. One that would cut premiums by a third to a half. And that would get the money to the victims who need it when they needed. The proposal should help highway safety generally and would be especially tough on the drunken driver. If enacted this proposal can save you a lot of money. And someday might save you a lot of hardship. The report is written for the kind of concerned intelligent citizen who watches the advocates. If you'd like to read it. Write to Governor Rockefeller. Albany New York and he'll send you a copy. Unlike auto insurance the report is free.

Thank you Mr. Stuart and thanks for coming back to the advocates to make the announcement of your far reaching auto insurance plan for New York. Now let's look ahead to next week. The soldier's duty is first to obey and only then to think this classic military tradition has created great battle triumphs but it is also made possible such human agonies as lead of Chick fil A and most recently and painfully. We live next week. The advocates argue should US fighting men be instructed to disobey illegal orders that are in violation of international law. Thank you Senator Pell for joining us tonight. Thanks to our advocates and particularly to our witnesses. Join us next Sunday night at the same time. I'm Roger Fisher. Good night. We have. Nokia. Thinking.

To help you understand. The outside. World. Our thanks to the University of Miami. For their cooperation. In this book. This program was made. People buy crumbs from the fourth. Floor. If I say yes. But you have quiet please so we now have a few minutes of discussion before we break. The news.