Vietnam: A Television History; Interview with Thomas Murphy, 1981

To get back to a few years I wonder if you could think back on these and tell me. What you regarded you. You know those early days. That was the mission that I thought that we were actually over there for was to keep the North Vietnamese from taking over the South. And I think that was specified by the president for them. People went in. First. Impressions actually. I mean how do you feel about that. I remember flying in on the advance party with the 9th Marines as we were flying over country the lights all went out in the plane for having never tasted combat before it gave me an eerie feeling. We got off and I thought I was more or less in hell because it was so hot. The.

Day. I saw the mes in any area of the Dogpatch period of two days after I was in country. That was the first the first patrol that I had been out on. And we went out through on a on a routine patrol through what was referred to as Dog Patch. No sir I don't. Really saw anything actually. When you come back in view of the the combat that I had actually seen was when I was flown over on the advance party. They flew us out and we was doing some operations with 3:9 and we were under a lot of fire at that time. Then when 1:9 landed there we moved to the rear and we were more or less just the advance party. We moved to the rear and we were running more or less routine patrols around the Dogpatch area and out of the base of hill 3:27 and in those areas and the area around Dogpatch was very

quiet. There was not much action in that in that area at all. To take you to solve this. Which receivables to give you that you need for you something did you know. The only thing that we knew about the area of Kameny was that a month or so prior that another company had been in the village and they had some people killed in it and some people wounded. And we found that at that time you know just through the grapevine that it was a heavily fortified area. Did you yes I knew I knew the entire

company because prior to going to Vietnam we was one of the last pole battalion that rotated from the United States. We was we had trained together for almost a year. We Rouche sail we went over on a ship and we'd been together for a year and then when we got in-country you know it was just the whole battalion was just about like family we had we'd been around each other for so long. It was yes it was. It was the first of my colleagues to being killed. Wish you could just relate to me just so you know we didn't really know and then just start into one we went into Kameny The we'd heard through the grapevine after that about the company that had been named prior we got the word that we were going into Kameny and on probably August 2nd. The

operation happened on August 3rd. We boarded the Amtrak's and my platoon was designated the village of Kameny for the rest of the company was more or less broken down and one platoon took the village that was on the right flank and the one that was another platoon took the village was on the left flank. As we pulled into Attie about 75 to 100 yards. It was a rice paddy and it was a graveyard. We pull up the base of the graveyard at which time we deployed as we deployed. And we moved to the forward edge of the graveyard to start the operation which probably kicked off between 9:30 or 10 o'clock in the morning. We got up and started moving as soon as we started moving across the rice paddies. We took a heavy volume of fire from the Vietnamese and the village at this time to calm the fire we took and returned fire to set down a base of fire and we fired some 3.5 into the hedge rows and so

forth. As soon as a 3.5 is hit the heads rose. It was simultaneous explosions knowing that the entire heads were all around the village had been booby trapped. As soon as we got our wounded drawn back and put back into the Antrax we started moving across the rice paddies and we moved into the village. We were taking heavy fire. At about this time after we had probably been in the village which is a good. Could you tell me something. It was it was a heavy heavy volume of fire it was a sort of machine gun. And we were taking a lot of heavy volumes of fire as we moved into the village. And. As. As a. Fact is known there was some we

started moving in and we suppressed the fire slightly as we started moving some of those so-called civilians quote unquote. Is this on the news it got killed. At this time in. Some of the Marines used cigarette lighters and who just went up grenades. Some flame throwers were brought in. And as we were moving through we were going along and checking the bunkers and the tunnels and on this operation I had been designated the tunnel rat as the tunnel rat. It was my job to go into the bunkers and the tunnels make diagrams of them. More or less put it in the back of your mind you know you didn't didn't stop and draw a diagram but should work were the main main tunnels were. As we moved through we were destroying the tunnels and we were destroying the bunkers. Do you

want me to get in about Morley Safer coming up or do you say. And I'm just getting into this. The cement for us has got to be. Right after we got inside there was from them for some tracers and so forth. Some of the houses were already burning. And as we move through the village we were told more or less that it was going to be a search and destroy mission. And we went within the intentions of search and destroy. Why wasn't Jews. No way. So you really can't

say was the reason why no means you're doing. It's called Search and Destroy. No. This. Was destroyed before and it was search and destroy. Before we went in search and destroy mission is where are you going. The Vietnamese were issued like I.D. cards. You rounded up the people and you withdrew them out of the village. If you received fire from the area you apprehended the civilians and you segregated them. If they were of fighting age you segregated these people into another group. And search and destroy mission is where you go when you apprehend. And if you receive heavy volumes of fire as just as it says you destroy. That tunnels were probably the most complicated

tunnels that I've ever been in in Vietnam. They If you're after you found your entrance they just went for hundreds of yards and branched off into separate little little tunnels as you was crawling through. You had to be were booby traps. The Vietnamese would take a bamboo viper and he would hanging by a string down from the base or from the roof of the tunnel and you're in a tunnel. Region you're a sign that the job was a tunnel rat is because you are the smallest man in the company. At that time I weighed approximately about 100 and probably 110 pounds soaking wet and being the smallest man I would go in and check these tunnels. It's a very nervous. Because you have We're going in and you can crawl a lot faster forward and you can in reverse. The tunnels were just mazes. They were just like honeycombs they broke off into different

sections as we was moving in. I would destroy the entrances and blow the tunnels with the tunnels and so forth and the bunkers were heavily fortified. They almost every village in Vietnam every home had a bunker. But these people here had more fortified. They were stronger. So. You would tell me this is their word. And the village itself. No we found no weapons in the village. The Vietnamese are very smart people. They they very seldom leave a

weapon any place she can hide it. The when they when they were withdrawing as we were moving forward they were carrying their weapons with them moving through the maze of the tunnel. And in some villages in the tunnels will branch out and go into a complete room where. Later on in the war they found a complete operating room operating rooms underground. And in these tunnel systems getting the civilians there to see it getting them. This friendly to me and the people in the village of Kameny for it was well known that they were VC sympathizers. When we moved in

they come out and a lot of them were very belligerent you. We had no Vietnamese troops attached to us. We had no interpreters at this time and none of the Marines could speak Vietnamese. You picked up a phrase here and a phrase there they picked up the just a couple of phrases enough that you know you try to get the people out of the house if they would not come out of the House should go and you would apprehend them or move them out by grabbing a person by the arm. And as you bring him out of the out of the homes you would take in more or less form a daisy chain and move him back to the edge of the village where they were segregated down into the different classifications of people that were of militant military age were put in one group the elders and were placed in another group well as being being inside a village. All I did was was asked escort the people

back to the edge of the village. I did not get involved in the segregation or so forth of the People. It's just you or some villages you'd go into the Vietnamese at this time were very funny. If the Vietnamese knew that the Vietcong were going to be in the area they would more or less become a little more belligerent a little more wary and stayed away from you. If they knew that the Vietnamese were not in the area they would ride the other side of the fence and they would be very friendly and you'd have no no troubles at all. And some villages some villages were strictly pro-American. Other villages were strictly pro the Viet Cong. And it depend on on the village that you went into.

And the way that the people had been treated prior some of these the when we returned them when they fired upon us and we laid down a base of fire I mean a base of fire is when everybody in the cartoon opens up automatic weapons semiautomatic weapons and it's used to suppress enemy fire. We opened up on a village and at this time probably some of the people were killed right on the base of fire. You know I I don't really know what as we were going through just how many people had been dead by that time as we were moving through the village some people took off running. And at this time some people were shot at. In this this time frame.

But I asked to be safe in saying that probably 90 percent of them were were killed by the base of fire being laid down. To. Actually see the storm surge. OK. As I said the operation kicked off probably between 9:30 and 10:00 o'clock I would be safe in saying by the time we had got organized in and kicked off it was probably 10:30 by the time the base of fire had lifted as we were moving through the village. And as we got into the village as we were progressing along it seemed that the that everything was just going wrong. It was

we weren't going at the rate we we thought we should have been gone. We were having some trouble with some of the Vietnamese people being surly didn't want to go here didn't want to go there. And after a period of time it was we didn't progress as the day we didn't reach our. Edge of the battle area. And as the operation probably went all. I would say approximately fifteen hundred or fifteen thirty that afternoon. So what we were doing as we were withdrawing the Vietnamese were moving right back into the villages we were withdrawing and we received a heavy volume of fire as we departed the village. As we got back over into the Amtrack area across the rice paddies using fire maneuver methods we. Lay down a solid base of fire and artillery was called in on the village.

There was there was a lot of firing on all during the day. Now you know it wasn't just from the time we got there it was just a steady steady flow of fire at us. We received heavy fire going in as we started moving through the village. It would have walls that would be sometimes two maybe three or four minutes and not one round was fired at this time you're up moving them around and trying to get people out of hutches and get organized. And then every once in a while they they would open up on you. But maybe one sniper or possibly four or five would open up on you. But all during the day we had constant fire coming at us at all times. You know it was it just wasn't like they were throwing a base fire at us but we had a steady flow of fire during the entire day. We did some interviews.

One of the women who was from Canada the plane that. She had been raped. This just isn't realistic. I mean could you just say something about. The. The. Rape portions and the supposed maltreatment of the people in the village. I will be safe in saying we fought our way into the village. We covered our own tails. At no time did we have any method. I mean sure. You know in a war people are going to get hurt. You grab people you push and you knock them down. But we fought our way into the village. We fought our way out of the village and at no time in this timeframe did a Marine or any of the Marines that were with me have time to rape a woman and get in on that operation. We were interested in getting in getting out and keeping our tails in one piece. You're doing very well. Continue to.

You don't say it wasn't going very well it wasn't very successful. Why was that. Well as we said we had reached just not quite the other side of the village and I don't know what actually transpired there withdrawal or the moving of the troops out out of the village. I know we hadn't advanced as far as we were supposed to go. It more or less took me by shock that we were going to move back in the opposite direction after we had just went through the village and had cleaned it up that far. And as we started to draw. Back towards the Amtrak's we had to move through the same village and as we were moving out the Vietnamese were coming back to the tunnels. Those remaining tunnels and opening fire on us as we got

back to the edge of the rice paddy we laid down a partial base of fire and then we fired and maneuvered the rest of the people back to the graveyards and the Amtrak were on the opposite side of the graveyard. As we got right to the edge of the village and tried to move across the rice paddies. The Vietnamese opened up on us with very heavy volume of fire. After we had gotten into the graveyard and everybody could get down and put in a position we lay down a heavy volume of fire. And at this time artillery was called in on the village. It was my thoughts. I thought the operation was very successful outside of not going as far as we should have. And as I said before I don't know why we were stopped at such and such a time to move back. It was

it was a strange day because it was the battalion had landed there and. The actual city. Which is just so you know it was it was part of the burning of the village was part of the search and destroy you could either blow bloom or in this case they most of them got burned. As I said from the fire and the flame throwers and the tracer rounds that turn

every fifth round on a machine gun and so forth did you. Have to. Get. Specific. I mean do you does you want to do this you have to refer back and say run can we set follow these rules. Did you just know there was there was. As we moved in in the place it started going up I think that most of these kids were really green. It was it was most of these youngsters first taste of combat. And as you seen this smoke going up from their homes that had already been a fire and they were told it was a search and destroy I don't think that an order had come down to burn the village. But I think it was just something that was carried on carried on through the operation. It was you know as it was some set by cigarette lighters there were

some set that were set by tracer rounds and flame throwers. And that was one way to quiet the fire from the village. Was before every house before any house was burned. We do. That's what we were doing there we were in there and we take the people out. And you know you don't have time to check to see if there's any trap doors in the house or anything else. You got the people out you got him back in the rear where they were segregated at this time. The some of the houses were already aflame and then that the village was destroyed. One thing the papers see is that one of the

casualties was you could only use it and amaze the American public are very unaware of the kind of war that we're fighting. There was there has been incidents where kids would come down to the water point down at Marble Mountain. They would come up and they would have shaved glass in sodas and they were selling the sodas cold sodas to the Marines down there for our dollar a bottle. We didn't have any at this time. There were other incidences where these young kids would come up. They would have a hand grenade. They would had the pen pulled. They would have a piece of adhesive tape off on it and they would come up and they would get to shooting the breeze with some of the Marines on a truck while they were shooting

the breeze the kid would rope and the gas can or the gas tank. The grenade would go down inside the gasoline would it would melt the adhesive and you end up with 20 or 30 or 20 Marines getting blown away on a truck. There was incidents when the kid would be stand along the side of the road. He had a stick that was maybe two to three foot long. He had a bamboo Viper tied off on a piece of string. He was waving it over his head like a whirly gig. And as the truck went by the kid would throw. The bamboo viper in the bed of the truck. And did you ever see 20 Marines trying to avoid one little snake in a six by going down a road or 25 or 30 mile an hour. It causes mass confusion. Bamboo Viper when he bites you it. It's it's a terrible terrible thing. To say to you.

What would you do. My thoughts is as to an eight nine 10 year old in a village it was somebody that I wouldn't trust. I couldn't trust. An 8 year old or a 9 year old can kill you just as quick as a 25 or 26 year old man. Now these people have been fighting this war a long long time. Some of these people were actually fighting wars when they were nine 10 and 11 years old were back here in the States. The kids are playing cowboys and Indians over there they've been playing it for real. These these youngsters. If that's what you want to refer to them has. Had some of them had more combat experience than the Marines that had just landed there. So

this is your life as a Marine. What was it actually like to be raised. I mean did you get on with each other. The day of just this day as I said before we had trained as a unit for a year prior to going over here in the States we had drank together we we'd fought together and we'd had a lot of good times together. The spirit and the morale of the company. Was outstanding. It was fine. One hell of a fine organization. The troops were motivated. We had hardly any disciplinary problems at that time. There was. That. The men took pride in the organization that we were in. And I think

this was true through my tour in the Marine Corps. We all considered ourselves the elite. The finest fighting machine. It's made that simple. We know one thing we want. To change them. Vietnam and the effect that it had on me. I read in the newspaper about some of these guys that are coming back to the states claiming that Vietnam put them on drugs and now they can't find jobs and so forth. Yes Vietnam did have an effect on me. I was there 65 I was there 68 I was again there in 72. Through the times I had matured a little bit.

The it's the American person is brought up with the assumption that everything is pure white or lily white and you don't as a Midwestern farm boy you don't think about killing anybody or anything like that. And after you get in there and you blow up a person the way it affects you. Some people take it a lot better than others. Some people actually crack up. They got to be brought out of the country that. The war did change me I am not the same docile person that I was prior to Vietnam. I don't jump through a hoop like I used to prior to Vietnam. I'm a little more systematic about what I'm told to do something I'm a little more systematic. I take a little more time to figure

out the way to do it and to do it. To Marine Corps standards but to do it MY WAY. Richard Oh Vietnam. Vietnam. I think. Some people will say that it was a job well done. My honest sentiments. I think that it was a political war. I don't think that the we were went in there with the intention to win it. If we went in with the intention to win it. The war would have been over in a very short time. So. To. Me.

Well the. Thing that I don't think I'll ever forget as long as I live was an incident when I left Great Lakes hospital to come out to Los Angeles to see my wife. I knew there was a lot of animosity amongst these folks. Right. OK. After having been wounded and was in Great Lakes hospital. I was placed in a cast with my arm up in the air and I had a. More or less a bar on it. So I boarded a plane to fly to Los Angeles to see my wife. And I knew there was animosity amongst the young and some of the elders about the people that had served in Vietnam. And I got off the plane and I was going to meet my wife at the Hayward hotel on Sixth and spring. And as I was walking down the street two young gentlemen decided that seeing me in the position I was in was going to take a little bit of revenge on

me for supposedly things that I had done in Vietnam. And it come to pretty much of a fistfight. And as one kid went sprawling on his street the other young gentleman grabbed hold of me. And there was people standing at the side yelling getting getting getting and a little old woman about 55 or 56 years old was parked in a car there and she seen that nobody was coming to my aid and that. I was doing fairly well. The little old woman jumped out took off her high heel and proceeded to start knocking this other young gentleman on top of the knowledge box. And at this time finally after this incident is skirmish and men on the street for about four to five minutes. Finally the cops came up and apprehended the two gentlemen taking them off but it was the amazing part was the animosity and the the atmosphere and the looks that

people just give you because you were a Vietnam veteran. That's. Incredibly issues. Did you really actually many Americans actually. Wanted to do so. A lot of the American public would find out that she had been to Vietnam. The word baby baby killer would come up many times in a conversation. They would look down your nose at you like you was a piece of dirt on the road and they would avoid you and try and try not to have any conversation with you. A lot of people were that way. It irk me it irk me thinking that the American public would

do that too. To a serviceman it was at times it disgusted me. And at times I felt sorry for them because they were any smarter than that. Q I wonder do some coaches with the crowd. How did you feel the crowd were against you. They didn't need to be oh they were yelling getting getting getting and making a big joke out of it. And with two hands I can pretty well hold my own. I can take care of myself and you can get you. Oh sure. It was evident. You know it was just the animosity was

even on the airplane flying out here. The animosity was there. People were shown that people wouldn't. I would try to stay away from you. Not many people would even talk to you. And this was in 1965 or this was later on in 1966. Oh a lot of the young troops at this time frame you know they read something in a history book or they a lot of a lot of the training we Gwenda's shows some documentation on Vietnam and some of the incidents for the training portions. And you know a lot of the young kids will come up and and talk to you about Vietnam and what was it like a. Normal question. Every memory I know is how many people you kill. You know this is I guess it's something that amazes people

and they keep the word we use a lot of Vietnam training films and these these are the young kids that are in now are the ones that do most of the talking about it or wanting to find out about it. Curiosity. About safe. Just stay with Tony. So. Just to. Right now.

Well Morley Safer I read a lot of the statements after after the fact before we just maybe do OK on the morning of the operation when we come out of the Amtrak's and started moving into the village. Morley Safer was on the side of my platoon. Morley Safer was in a platoon that was on the right flank. The village as I said was 750 to 1000. Yards away. And as we started moving into the village and. We started getting all the fire and. We was the only two at that time that were receiving any action. I guess I was probably into the village about. Maybe 100 yards. And. Here come Morley Safer with these two newspaper people. And as we progressed and went through the village and finally Morley Safer had two Vietnamese with him we used his. People they could speak some English and Vietnamese and we started using them to help get the peoples out of the oven.

The whole thing as we're going through. We're burning out the homes are burning and Morley Safer is running around giving the people money. So as we left the village Morley Safer withdrew with us and the statement that he made was to pretend we are receiving slight sniper fire. Or food or even slight sniper fire. I'd like know what he was doing crawling right through there like a great snake on his belly like the rest of us when when the firing opened up so we left Kameny and he had quite a bit of footage on the operation. So on the 4th of August he came out to the camp. And he wanted to interview three people that were on the operation. Well at this time. He asked for me by name. The other two were taking

taken to. And you know we're left briefed by the company commander. So Morley Safer came up in and we done the interview on it buy a Jeep and a tent was sitting right behind in verion and. He was telling about he had been with the platoon the day before and he was going to interview the people at such and such a time. So he started the interview and. And. We didn't really know everything he had on the on the film from the day before. You know we knew we had some things but we really didn't know everything that he did have. So he's asking about such and such an incident and such and such an incident and he comes up and he says something about to I have any remorse or in the way I. More or less conducted the operation. And I said no and more or less. And we got into a very heated comment. Well they had to bleep bleep out

parts of the interview. And finally how did I feel about what we had done in the village. And I told him that it was the job that we was there to do. We had done it. And I think we proved the point to the Vietnamese people. We were done playing games. So as the interview finished Morley Safer says I want you to shake your head. Yes. And I want you to shake your head no. And he says all we're going to use it for is close up shots. And I come up with a comment. What do you need a close up shot of me shaking my head yes in my head. No for it doesn't seem feasible. Well this is just part of the progress you know are the process. And we got in a little argument over me standing there shaking my head yes in my head no. Well the program must have been in the air in the states the

that but probably the fifth or sixth because probably about the eighth or ninth. They come out to the field and took me to the denying press compound and they start showing me this footage that they had on the operation. And there's four people in this room and it become more than an investigation it become an interrogation process. And that at this time I see all the footage. Morley Safer shot it was quite a bit of footage. And here I am trying to go through the process and there's this guy's asking me what happened here what happened there. At what time. Who is just standing there with their back to the camera. The cigarette lighter go on. They was interested in that. And then this time he was trying to find out when the 14 15 or so many civilians had been killed. Then after you watched that. Here's the interview with me standing there and he showed all this footage. And

then how did I feel about it and I said well it made me look like Attila the Hun to be quite truthful. And that was by the time the whole process was over and the everything was broke down it was probably September. Well Morley Safer left Vietnam in late September or early October. He was flown to London. And. I don't know whether it was the way that he had handled some of the interviews. There were rumors. Thank. You. I think that the as the program. That he presented to the American public and the interview.

With myself. And two other Marines. Was. Very distasteful. It was. A. Very very poor poorly presented. I was completely. So we say I was dismayed. That that. All of this. Four to five minutes. News flash could really get that many people really upset. I thought it was very poorly handled. It's the the statements after seeing the footage. Morley Safer get the American public the assumption that he was with

me from the time I come out of those Amtrak's the entire operation. He was not. He gave the American public the word that we were receiving light sniper fire which was an out and out. Lie right across the board. He. The way that. And as as we were leaving the village he said we received slight fire but yet in my mind as we're getting across that rice patty. When the rounds started coming. Morley Safer hit the deck with everybody else. And he's cameraman and I had to send two marines back out in that rice paddy water to get Morley Safer and his two cameraman up and into that graveyard where he'd be safe. And I was completely. I had no use for reporters thereafter.