American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with Bernard Lafayette, Jr. , 3 of 3

[Interviewer]: So, you know, you're not in Kansas anymore. What were you all thinking? [Bernard]: We’d been confronted by small groups of people who had attacked us earlier, but we had never been faced with large mobs of people. And that was a different experience. And we’d heard about this kind of thing happening before, and we’ve gotten reports, you know, all through our growing up, about these kind of mobs do things to people and that kind of thing. And I think that we always expected that some people would survive. And we were hoping that, it might be us who could carry this thing on. And we’re surrounded by this mob in church. But one of the interesting things that happened to us on the way from Birmingham, uh, to Montgomery: We

We actually, um, were confronted with a mob in Selma. The mob was so large, they said there were about two- thousand people waiting at the bus station for us and we had the, uh, state troopers. You know. We were coming out of Montgomery, so we were all, um, you know, protected. But that law enforcement group was not willing to confront a mob of 2,000 people. So there was a decoy. In other words, there was a bus that was sent to the Selma bus station, but we weren’t on it. And we made a decoy around. We sent them as the decoy, and made a– another way around Selma, Alabama to get to Montgomery. So, I'm sure that some of that mob caught on to what happened, and that increased the forces. But they were well organized when they came and attacked us. [Interviewer]: So there must of been so-, when you were in this church, there must have been at this point,

some kind of fear. [Bernard]: Well, we were thinking that the church would be bombed, like the bus was bombed, maybe now with dynamite instead of Molotov cocktails. So we were, had no expectation of being able to survive that situation, but we were there. And we had good leadership. That was a thing that we never want to forget. Martin Luther King himself was there, Ralph Abernathy, Fred Shuttlesworth, the people we looked up to as leaders in the movement, people who had been jailed and beaten, and people who, you know, were not not afraid, and people who had courage. That gave us the inspiration that we needed, because we felt we had, you know, backup protection, and that sort of thing; that they were with us, not-not behind us (laughs)

and not too far in front, but we were in this thing together. And, um, so if anyone could help us get out of that situation, it would have been Martin Luther King, and he did, when he got the, uh, President to nationalize the uh, the nat-, federalize the National Guard. The governor could have done it, but the governor refused to. [Interviewer]: Mmhmm. Um, Do you, next day, um, you guys get the ride to Jackson, do you remember anything about the ride, the trip to Jackson? What do you remember about the trip there? [Bernard]: Well, it was very interesting. It was not exactly the very next day, because we had to, uh, wait until some other people joined us, and we had meetings, and we had to, uh, plan our strategy. CORE now was back on board, okay. Congress of Racial Equality, which was the one that started it. But they were no longer in charge. Okay. The students out of Nashville were the ones who, um, decided

to continue when they stopped. But they were certainly in support of our continuing the Freedom Rides and that kind of thing. Uh, another thing happened during this period. And that was for some strange reason, there was a house in Montgomery that was owned by a black pharmacist. He had a pharmacy on the– Dexter Avenue. And that was a safe house. It’s the only place where we could stay, because remember, they had warrants out for our arrest. But they would not come to that house and arrest us. In fact, when we did continue the Freedom Rides, the buses came, the Greyhound bus came to his house, okay, this pharmacist’s house. And that’s where we boarded the buses. Now, I think a very important point should be made. Were the National Guards and the state troopers and those

people who were surrounding the buses be continued from Montgomery, were they there to protect us from the mob, or was it the bus they were protecting? We felt a very strange feeling when the changing of the guards at the Alabama/Mississippi state line. It was very eerie. In spite of all that Alabama had done, the fear of Mississippi, in the minds of many people, was far greater than any other southern state. In fact, we learned that, uh, as we grew up, that Mississippi was a state unto itself. In fact, they used to call it the sovereign state of Mississippi. When the guards changed on the state line,

They, um, and by this time we’d been joined on the Freedom Rides by other people who had come in. And even Jim Lawson, who had trained us, was there. And the ministers from Nashville, who’d given us the check with one signature, (laughs) they were there with us now, after the Montgomery mob situation. When the bus stopped and there was a changing of the guards, we happened to notice there was a huge billboard. And that billboard said, “Welcome to the sovereign state of Mississippi, The Magnolia State." It had a huge beautiful magnolia blossom in the middle of the signboard. And when we continued to ride on, the next large sign we saw on the side of the road said, “Prepare

to meet thy God.” And we were very somber, because we took the literal translation of that sign. And as we continued to roll, everything was very quiet on the road in Mississippi, because we had no idea what we would face. [Interviewer]: Okay, cut. So, you didn't know that that they had- (cut out) Good. We need some humor in this story. [Bernard]: Okay, you got it. You got me. That's what you got (laughs). [Interviewer]: Alright, well what happened? [Bernard]: Well, when we, uh dismounted the buses at the bus station in Jackson, Mississippi, those of us on the bus, we walked into the white waiting room. And there was this police captain. We learned his name was Captain Ray. And he said, “Move on. Move on. Move on.” And I was moving, but I was moving towards the restroom.

Because remember, this bus had no restroom. So I was actually arrested in the restroom. And when the police told me I was under arrest, I told him he had to wait. You know, I was going to cooperate, but I you know, couldn't do it at that particular moment. But, he could be assured that, you know, I was prepared to obey his orders. Okay? But it was in the restroom where I was arrested. [Interviewer]: Okay, I'm not sure I understand as to why that story is funny. [Bernard]: Oh, that’s because it’s a play on words, in terms of arrest. [Interviewer]: (laughs) Okay, so you were in the middle of doing your business in the restroom, is that what happened? Um, you gotta tell me that! Cut. [Bernard]: Well, you know awh, you're too serious [Interviewer]: You have to tell me that if you understood you were arrested. [Bernard] Well, when you're: W placed under arrest, usually have to put your hands in the air.

Okay? Or either stick your hands out, so you could have handcuffs. I couldn’t do either at that moment. [Interviewer]: Why not? [Bernard]: Because I was– I was resting already in the restroom. [Interviewer]: You talked a little bit about about singing in, in, in, in Parchman. Talk to me about that. And I want you to tell me about, about how you guys would sing. Why, why did you sing in, in the prison? What was the purpose of singing? [Bernard]: After we got to the- Jackson, Mississippi, we were arrested systematically. We were in the first wave. And we were waiting for the others to join us, because we had not waited to finish our exams, you know, and we thought we could pave the way for the others to come, so they would follow our leadership. No sooner than they would finish their exams, that they would get on buses and come and follow us. Well, a

week passed and nobody came. Not one bus. And we were up on the third floor of the jail, and we could look out and see the city. In fact, we could see buses, and, uh, the bus station even. And there were no Freedom Riders. So we made up a song saying that buses are a’comin’. And we sang it to the jailers to tell them and warn them to get ready, to be prepared, that we were not the only ones coming. So we started singing: (singing) Buses are a’comin’, oh yes. Buses are a’comin’, oh yes. Buses are a’comin’, Buses are a’comin’, Buses are a’comin’, oh yes. (speaking) And we say to the jailers: (singing) Better get you ready, oh yes. (speaking) And the jailers say, "Alright, shut up all that singing hollering in here. This is not no playhouse, this is the jailhouse."

So we said to ourselves, “What are you going to do? Put us in jail?” (laughs) (singing) Better get you ready, oh yes. Better get you ready, oh yes. (speaking) They said, “Wait a minute. Hold it. If we hear one more peak out of you guys, we’re gonna take your mattress.” Let me say it: (singing) You can take our mattress, oh yes. You can take our mattress, oh yes. (speaking) We start piling up the mattress at the door, so they wouldn’t have any problem. So they, you know, we were with the program. We’re going to still sing. And we continued to sing. And then they said that they were going to take our toothbrushes. And someone struck out: (singing) You can take our too- (speaking) We said, “Wait a minute. Hold up. This is time for Quaker consensus. We all got to agree on this together.” Because here we were, eight of us in a cell built for two. And that means you have

close quarters. And so we learned to sing with our mouths closed, so we wouldn’t breathe on each other. And we sang: (singing with mouth closed) You can take our toothbrush, oh yes. You can take our toothbrush, oh yes. You can take our toothbrush, oh yes. You can take our toothbrush, You can take our toothbrush, oh yes. We will keep our freedom, oh yes. We will keep our freedom, oh yes. (speaking) So in nonviolence, the whole strategy is how you respond. So we were letting them know from the get-go that we were our own persons, and we would determine what we wanted to do. And the songs were a way of captivating our own emotions. Because one thing you have to do when you’re in a stressful situation

is be able to control your emotions. You often hear people say, “I lost it.” Well, we couldn’t afford to lose it. So the music and that sort of thing put us in harmony with each other, gave us support for each other, and we, uh, relished the opportunity. Even if you didn’t have a great voice, it didn’t matter. You could hum. And so everybody can sing, you know, together. That’s one thing you can do together. You can’t make a speech at the same time, you know, but you can sing at the same time. And the singing in jail meant a lot to us. In fact, I remember once we were in jail, in the county jail, and, uh, we were singing, and especially in the evenings and that kind of thing, you know after dinner, entertain ourselves as well as uh, give our ownselves, self-inspiration, that kind of thing, group, you know, togetherness and harmony. And the jailer used to, uh, slip down the side of the, uh, jail cells,

He couldn’t see us but we could see him, because we could look through the transit on the other side of the hallway, the transits up there, and we could see his re– a reflection. So, we saw him. We started making up songs about the jailer, and how good the food was, okay, and what a wonderful person he was. We called him Professor anyway, because we were students, and those in charge of us were professors. So he’d never been, you know, respected that way. Well, it turned out that uh, we developed a relationship with him. He had, uh, an 11th grade, uh, daughter, this 11th grader, and no one in the family had ever gone to college. So he would ask us questions about college and how to get in and stuff like that. What better resource? You got whole jail cells, you know, full of college students. Okay, they know how to get to college, (laughs) and also know how to get out.

But we’d give him information during the day, and he’d take that at night, because he was a night jailer. And he would take it back the next day, and he was like star of the family, because he was, you know, could give, write off for Pell grants, you know, and write applications and registration, all that kind of stuff. He knew what to do. And so what would he do at night, late at night? He’d watch the little black-and-white television with the rabbit ears, okay because it’s not like activity going on at night. And he would eat out- he would send a "trustee" out, and this was an inmate who was trusted to go out and come back, you know, so they called him "trustee", and he’d trust him to go get the ice cream. He would buy ice cream for us! What they would do is put the pints of ice cream in a mop bucket with rollers on it, take the dry mop, put it on top, and then roll this, uh, mop bucket past all the other cells until he got to our cell, flip the

mop off, we would stick our hands through the bars, eat the ice cream, you know, with the paper top on it, and then throw the empties back in the mop bucket. They would put the mop on and roll it back again. This happened. Okay? More than once. [Interviewer]: Okay, let's cut. (coughing) Sorry. Almost done. You good? [Bernard]: Good. Now, I don't know what you want to talk about beyond the Freedom Rides but one important point I wanted to make, if you want to include it, it's fine, but it'll be in my book, and that is the fact that the Freedom Rides were stopped in Jackson, Mississippi, people were systematically arrested. But, no people from Jackson got on the Freedom Rides until we went out and started recruiting them.

And we would take 'em through workshops. We would break up, uh, basketball games. [Interviewer]: If this could be short... I mean I like the way (cut out) What did, um, Ross Barnett say? [Bernard]: While we were in jail, the governor came out with a front-page article congratulating the Mississippi people uh, for not participating on the Freedom Rides, and not, uh, joining these northern outside agitators. And we thought that was a insult. So Jim Bevel and I, when we got out of jail, we had to get permission to stay in Jackson because the pattern was, you get out of jail, you get a steak dinner, and then you get on the bus and get out of there the next day. That was the arrangements they had with those people in the law enforcement. So we had to get permission from the uh, you know, uh, the prosecutor to, uh, stay. And we said we’re going to stay here in Jackson. You know. Bevel’s from Mississippi, and we

like Mississippi. We didn’t particularly tell him what we were going to do. But we set up office and started recruiting people from Jackson, Mississippi. [Interviewer]: And what did they do? [Bernard]: Well, at first, well, you can cut this out if you want- We would stop a group of, of black fellows, okay, and sometimes they were gang members, and we asked them if they wanted to fight. And I remember Luvaghn said, “Yeah, I want to fight.” He didn’t know what we’re going to fight about. (laughs) But we said, "We’re going to go downtown and fight segregation. Would you like to do that?" He said, "Well, yeah." "So, you may go to jail." He said, "It’s all right with me. I’ve been in jail before." So we would gather people from wherever we could find them. We’d take them through training first, so they wouldn’t get in there and then turn around and say we, you know, duped them or something like that. So we had to make sure that they were on board. So one of the requirements was to meet us at our

office, where we did the training, at 6 o’clock in the morning. Anyone who would get up and be there at 6 o’clock in the morning, okay, had to be serious. [Interviewer]: Mmhmm. So did you say you had 42 people arrested? [Bernard]: In two weeks. [Interviewer]: So, I just want you to kinda answer... [Bernard]: And we were re-arrested. [Interviewer]: So just, yeah, end it there. [Bernard]: And that 13-year-old was one of the warrants that we got. [Interviewer]: So, just say that you got it, you know, that, that, so you say you got these people, um, and so, say something like, you know, you know, in two weeks, we got 42 people to be, and they were from Mississippi, these were Mississippians, you know, okay, so what happened? What was the outcome of you and Bevel staying there? [Bernard]: We stayed in Jackson, recruited people, and trained them to go on the Freedom Rides, because we wanted to make sure the governor understood that black folks in Mississippi also wanted to be free. And once we trained them, and they went in there—Luvaghn Brown, for example, Jimmy Travis—these were all people who are leaders in Jackson, Mississippi—Jimmy Travis. And they were on the

Freedom Rides. They didn’t have to go on a bus. They didn’t need a ticket. They just walked into the white waiting room, and Captain Ray said, “Move on,” and they refused to move. But we wanted to make sure. Because see, you can’t bring about changes simply by changing the law. You have to change the behavior of the people. And the behavior of the people can only be changed when their minds are changed. So that’s why Martin Luther King was always about bringing in masses of people participating in a movement. [Interviewer]: Uh, so if you can, uh when I just say, you know, mention we got, or in 2 weeks we got 42 people from Mississippi to walk into that bus station, try to sit down at the white place? and be arrested as Freedom Riders. [Bernard]: In two weeks, we were able to get 42 people from Jackson, Mississippi, to go into the white bus station in Jackson and be- and refuse to leave after being ordered by

the policeman. And they got arrested. And they were considered Freedom Riders. [Interviewer]: Great. Okay. Let's cut. They would walk up to the ticket counter, designated for whites, okay, and she was arrested for asking to buy a ticket at the white ticket counter. She stayed in jail the whole summer. She went to school, after being in jail the whole summer. She was out. She was in jail about 3 months. And she was refused. Principal said, "You can't register for school, 'cause you'd been in jail." The entire student body stacked their new books on the steps of the school and walked out, went downtown,

came by our office, SNCC (Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee) "snick" office, we happened to be meeting. And, uh, [Interviewer]: Let me ask you a question, because I have to, I wanna get this. [Bernard]: There's part of free, this is, there's a quaint part of the Freedom Rides, but for this girl to do that by herself was phenomenal. [Interviewer]: Yeah, um, I think this will probably be the last questions this is kinda to sum up. What, what did what do you think the Freedom Rides accomplished? [Bernard]: The most important thing that the Freedom Rides accomplished. [Interviewer]: Let me start over. Just, just start over again. Mmhmm, go ahead. [Bernard]: The most important thing that the Freedom Rider- Freedom Rides accomplished, Freedom Rides of 1961, was that if you stay with your issue and don’t abandon it, other people will join you. And when other people join you, you have a greater chance of being able to make the

change, because you give people a chance to think about your particular issue and make a decision about the rightness or wrongness of it. And no change can take place unless you win the sympathy or the active participation of the majority. And it was when the white folk said, “Enough is enough,” and they’re the ones that caused the actual change to take place. Black folks took the leadership, and white folks took the followship, and they also shipped out those who were responsible for holding us (down).