American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with Julian Bond, 2 of 2

sunil um hold on, um ... yeah, I like, I do this, do this maybe later, so when they're, as, as the Freedom Riders Riders and the other people, Martin Luther King and others, are trapped in the church in Montgomery, is this kind of growing frustration with the Kennedy administration Well, there's a feeling that the Kennedy administration wants to treat the civil rights movement, generally the, the Freedom Riders, particularly as an irritant, these are people getting in our way, these people upsetting our plans, these are people who are taking attention away from what we want to do, making us pay attention to things we didn't think we'd have to pay attention to civil rights particularly, and, so that in turn, creates this disillusionment the optimism that had enveloped the Kennedys, I think, from election day forward began to diminish and it kept going down and down and down and down I think that, at that -- that point, there seems to be this, this sense from the

Freedom Riders that, that, OK, we're gonna have to force the Kennedys, uh hmm, yeah to become involved. The, the Freedom Riders, I think, particularly, and the civil rights movement generally says, you know, these people are not going to do, the Kennedys, they're not going to do the right thing, they've got to be made to do the right thing, we've got to create confrontations that force them to take sides, are you with the right, are you with the wrong? and we want to make them get with the right. It seems, uh, just, just one more thing about the Kennedys, it seems that, that one of the things that happens is that the truly fascinating is you, you know after the bus burning and, and and the rioting in in uh, Birmingham that that the Kennedys are still talking about the Cold War, they're still, right the Kennedy brothers, John and Robert, were fixated on foreign policy, domestic affairs were an afterthought for them, and the civil rights movement was an afterthought beyond an afterthought, now, all of a sudden chaos has broken loose, attention is

riveted, people are talking about this, the whole world is watching and they're just so irritated they don't know what to do, okay, what what and I -- one of the -- about the, uh the Montgomery, uh, riots, is that, um after the Montgomery riots, the attorney general of Alabama comes down and issues injunctions against the Freedom Riders, so they're all beat up and now they're He reads an injunction to John Lewis, who is lying unconscious on the ground, right some of that's Attorney General Patterson comes, too, No, that's not Attorney General Patterson, it's Governor Patterson, no, yeah I'm not sure of the Attorney General's name. Yeah, you mean to say the attorney general, yeah OK the attorney general of Alabama reads an injunction to an unconscious John Lewis, lying on the street, forbidding him from doing what he did that got him beaten and no attention is paid to the people who beat John Lewis or rendered him unconscious, ah, so, even at that level, uh, they're trying to place the

blame on the Riders, rather than the attackers. If you could just do, I'm sorry do what he did, but say you know the injunction is for um, cease and desist, um, it was sorta cease and desist cease and desist the integration, yeah, yeah, the attorney general of Alabama reads an injunction forbidding John Lewis and CORE making them cease and desist from participating in the Freedom Rides while John is unconscious on the ground. Uh, just you know, an absolute reversal of what he should've been doing, uh he should have been paying attention to the rioters, the violent people, instead of the victims are being blamed. Um and, and what does it say about Governor Patterson? John Patterson had succeeded his father as governor of Alabama. His father had been killed, assassinated -- and he, that's not right. John Patterson had, uh, succeeded his father, who had been attorney general before him, and then became uh, governor of Alabama

and he was a rigid segregationist and had to demonstrate to a segregationist constituency that he was good with them, it's like playing to his base uh, and so he's not going to give an inch. He's gonna call the Freedom Riders names, he's going to blame them for all the violence, he's going to do everything he can to cleanse the reputation of the decent white people of Alabama and place it entirely on these outsiders. It seems, seems though that, that -- I just want to get back to that, that one scene at the uh, after the Birmingham riot that you know, that, that, that the Freedom Riders and eh Kennedy, RFK, too, thought they had a deal with Patterson, you know, for some safe passage, but it said something to me that the attorney general is waiting there, an attorney general is is reading this injunction. But doesn't the safe passage agreement come after the Montgomery No, the safe passage agreement comes-- The safe passage to Mississippi? No there was

the first safe passengers out of -- you're right, the first safe passage out of Birmingham, it's out of Birmingham into Montgomery. OK, yeah. so actually in -- in Montgomery, I -- the government so you have -- are you listening? Montgomery, the Riders are just beaten almost to death, John Lewis's lying unconscious on the sidewalk and the attorney general of Alabama reads him an injunction forbidding CORE and the Riders from continuing on -- it it's if all this has been their fault, not the fault of the authorities who should've protected them and should have been arresting the bad guys, but no, it's the Freedom Riders. Gray thank you so much for that. I just uh, want to set up this, this kind of the, the mass meeting that happens the next day. uh, that, you know that, there's this huge mass meeting that's

called so you know we have the footage inside. Yeah. the meeting uh, just want to get get the idea that that you know Martin Luther King flies in, it's in Abernathy's church, you know uh, uh, Farmer comes down and Diane Nash comes in a huge thing that happens the next day -- the, the aftermath of these beatings, ah just want to, ah try to set up this mass meeting. The day after, the uh, the the evening after the Montgomery beatings, there's this great mass mass meeting, at Ralph Abernathy's church, by that time King has moved away from Montgomery but he comes back to this, James Farmer is there, the leadership of the embryonic student movement is there, Diane Nash is there ah, so here is a gathering of all of the people who made this possible and some of whom are not sure about what the next step ought to be but the young

people carried the day because they intend to go on. Uh-- One of the things that that that happens -- and we're gonna let the people who were in the church kinda tell that story, after they, after the next day after they get out in the next few days is that the, the young people in from, from, on the Freedom Rides trying to persuade Martin Luther King to go on the rides. There's a poignant confrontation between the SNCC people and Dr. King in which they're asking him to go forward with them from Montgomery onward into Mississippi and hopefully into Louisiana but he refuses and he claims that he can't go because he's on probation and many of these young people are on probation three or four times over, you know, they've been arrested many more times than he has and are going to get arrested more times than he has in the future and they can't understand this reluctance and I think this is the beginning of a diminuation of the respect that Dr. King was held in, it didn't mean

that they turned their backs on him by any means, he's still a revered and beloved figure but he was revealed to have feet, well, maybe of clay. Uh, Ron, can you hear? Yes. Could you understand that last sentence? There's, there's a confrontation in Montgomery between the young people who carry the rides this far and Martin Luther King. They ask him to go forward with them with them to go to Jackson then onto New Orleans where they hope to end the ride and he refuses and he claims he can't go because he's on probation and they're incredulous because many of them are on probation several times over, they've been arrested more times than he and will be arrested more times than he, so it's a beginning, I think, of a little disenchantment with Martin Luther King and these young people who demon-- see that he's not willing to take the risk they are and, of course, they're asking him to take risks that are probably greater than theirs because

he's a known commodity and they're not, he'd be a target in ways they would not, but at the same time a little distancing begins now between King and these young people. One of the things that, that um, -- let-- are you good? Umm. One of the things that that is fascinating about this time is that uh, you know after the church siege, you know Governor Patterson is still unrepentant, you know, he blames King, he blames the Riders John Patterson is one of these figures who is absolutely unreconstructed. He will not be accommodating, he will not give an edge, he is mindful of where he is and who he is, he's now an Alabama elected official, he's elected by white people, black people in Alabama can't vote. He gets elected by playing to white fears and white dis- prejudices and so he has to maintain this posture and he will not give in, he will not change. um one

that Martin Luther King says, I think, at the church,um, is that is-- is that Patterson is really responsible yeah, highly -- If if there's one person responsible for for the violence for for for for the uh, you know the uh, what's going on there I don't know the exact words but that it's that that's that's it's Patterson. OK, ah, Salisbury says that, too, in the church. He's on video saying that. The people trapped in that church know that one person is responsible for all of this and that's John Patterson, the governor of Alabama. He's the one figure right on the local scene, who could have stopped it. Instead he's encouraged it. he has disparaged the Freedom Riders, he's called them outsiders, he's made them responsible for everything that's happened when in fact they are the victims, they are not the people responsible. Um-- so finally, ah, we're getting close. OK, good because I have to go.

they--they-they--there. Um-- There, uh, -- Finally that -- there is a deal struck to get the Freedom Riders out of Alabama. Then the arrangement is made between the federal government, Robert Kennedy, and the most powerful man in Mississippi. James O. Eastland, the senator, who's the most racist member of the Senate of the United States and the deal is this: in exchange for violating, in exchange for an agreement that Mississippi will protect them from the Alabama-Mississippi border to Jackson the federal government agrees that their constitutional rights can be violated, that they could be arrested in Jackson under laws which have twice been invalidated by the United States Supreme Court so in exchange for guaranteeing their safety, their civil rights are abandoned. So at this point, the the this ah, union, this agreement

this thing between, between RFK, the Justice Department and Mississippi. Yes, the Attorney General of the United States, Robert Kennedy, agrees with James O. Eastland that, in exchange for providing safety for the Freedom Riders, their civil rights can be violated and they could be arrested in Jackson peacefully and calmly under laws which have twice been invalidated by the US Supreme Court. Did the Freedom Riders know about this agreement had been made? No, the Freedom Riders had no understanding of this at all. I don't think anyone have any understanding of it until years and years after. Um I just want to -- so the Freedom Riders kinda counter this. It's kinda like this chess game so Eastland in Mississippi says ok, so we're just going to arrest you all. So the Freedom Riders kinda countered this with ok, we're going to call up a massive wave of Freedom Riders and we're not going to take that, we're just going to fill up your jails. The Freedom Riders react, uh, to the failure of Mississippi to beat them.

which I'm sure they had expected by trying another tactic and that is just packing the jails, in this case, Parchman State Penitentiary, so hundreds of people are recruited from around the country or volunteer from around the country to go on a Freedom Ride and people both associated with CORE and not associated with CORE show up to the Jackson bus station, get arrested, and get sent to jail and the Freedom Riders say we're not going to pay bail, we're not going to get out, we're going to stay here, at least until the last day we can stay in jail and still appeal our, our convictions and we're uh, going to make it as tough on you as we can. Again, I want to say try to make that just, just, just, make that kind of call for the people a little bigger because that, that's a huge thing that you know when when the Freedom Riders -- when, when, the first group of people are arrested and they say okay, they call for more people to come, you know, and we can even like, not even say said you know you don't know if they are going to come or not but you know it's a huge thing

to say ok we, we are calling for people to come from New York to California, Michigan up from anywhere and the -- talk about the -- when the Freedom Riders finally make it to Jackson where they're relatively peacefully arrested and sentenced to to Parchman State Penitentiary, there's a quick, kind of subtle shift in tactics, now they're going to focus on Jackson, on Mississippi, they issue a call for people from around the country to come and pack the jails and come they do that their attitude is that it is also a ? get a sense that you know we have pictures of people holding prayer vigils for the Freedom Riders as that, you know people having fundraising, that there's other ways that you know, because there's you know i mean there's only come and get arrested but that it becomes this connection with, that there are other ways that people participate in what's now this national movement

of Freedom Riders. From the moment of the bus burning and beatings in Alabama, the Freedom Riders become a national concern and national cause celebre and all over the country, people are trying to do supportive things, not everybody could go but many people can give money they can hold rallies, they can do marches, they can picket, they can do all the things that focus attention on this and then make the Kennedy administration have to do something about it. Um-- What was Parchman for, just, just-- just want to tell a little bit about it, because you know because one of the things that happens is that, is that first you know, the highest count as more and more come, you know ok, what we're going to do is put them in Parchman Parchman had its own special place in America and you know, I just want to just get an idea, what was Parchman? palestinians also delays in america Parchman Penitentiary was probably the most famous prison in the

country, it was a plantation, it was a farm, they grew crops and the prisoners worked on the farm and the labor is just terrible, it's harsh, it's just unforgiving and the place was feared. If you got arrested in Mississippi, you didn't want want to go there I want to just add a couple of things, all right? OK, yeah. Yeah, OK back at the church, seems like it gives a sense of kind of negotiation going on you know while people were trapped in the church, a mob outside of people are, you know, upstairs and there's also these negotiations are going on between RFK and Martin Luther King. Well, the church is under siege and this is a siege, raving mob outside turning cars over, burning cars, throwing Molotov cocktails into the church, fighting with the marshals keeping the crowd out of the church, Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy are in a

screaming shouting match with the King asking the attorney general to uphold its responsibilities and Kennedy, I think, offering reasons why he can't do this, he can't do that and eventually, he has to give in he has to do something to save these people or they would all be killed. oh this, um, a little bit about this you know, the, the National Guard comes to the church sieges as the Alabama National Guard and actually I just want to give everyone what happens is the people say oh, OK, the National Guard is here, we're free, it's time to go out out and they turn their bayonets on them and tell them go back inside and you realize the Alabama National Guard is a bunch of rednecks. Just want to tell a little bit about -- OK, so, so the Alabama National Guard kind of takes over and has now taken over from the federal marshals and the people's -- at first get a sense of relief

the people in the church in Montgomery been protected by this tiny band of marshalls who really aren't equal to the mob that's gathering outside. The mob is almost breaching the front door and bam, all of a sudden the Alabama National Guard has mobilized and they come and they disperse the mob and the people think, boy, this is over, we can go home, but of course, the guard keeps them inside the church until early the next morning, they had to spend the night there sleeping on the pews and on the benches and I have no idea why they do this but they do So I just want to get just a little bit more about that because so so so they think they're rescued and I just want to get at that that that that that he's with the Alabama National Guard that they were Alabamans that they you know probably weren't responding and that the people who

thought they were rescued don't know, really. People inside the church are eventually saved from what probably would've been a massacre by Alabama National Guard. The Alabama National Guard is mobilized. They disperse the mob outside, replace the marshals who'd been trying their best to defend it and the people inside think well, we can go home now, but to their surprise and horror, I think, they discover the bayonets pointed at them and they're kept inside the church until the early morning hours. Beautiful. Um -- what did the Freedom Rides accomplish? The Freedom Rides do a couple of things. They accomplish the integration of interstate facilities, did something two Supreme Court decisions could not do They create a national reputation for an organization, which had been around since the 1940s, the Congress of Racial Equality, but, all of a sudden, it's one of the big players now with the NAACP, with SCLC, with SNCC, it becomes one of the major

civil rights organizations of the country. It demonstrates that there's a new militance among these young people. They're willing to tell the president of the United States, uh, we're not we're not going to do something just because you tell us to, we're going to do what we think is right so it does all these things and it involves more people in the movement, not just the couple of hundred who come to Jackson to go to jail but people around the country who, in some kind of support role, become engaged in supporting the Freedom Riders and go from that into something else. Julian, I promise you this, this will be the last one. All right. I swear. OK. I want to tell me if ? line all the time there's one thing, just give me one thing, pull out one of those things. those things that the Freedom Riders accomplished. The Freedom Riders legitimated the use of civil disobedience to change social policies in ways I don't think the sit-ins did. They used federal law to say we have

a right to do these things and in the end they won that right. and let's get some tone. Tone? Yep. Okay. [Interviewer] Thank you so much. [Bond] No, thank you.