WGBH Radio; The Callie Crossley Show

Time Arnie Arneson sitting in for Kelly Crossley. This is the Cali Crossley Show. We all know the saying actions have consequences and sometimes it takes looking at history to fully realize what this means. Take prohibition as an example. What may seem like a kink in American history along the selling buying and buying of booze was in reality a constitutional amendment that reshape politics economics and social dynamics. It was a legislative twist that gave rise to the super sizing of American corporations and changed the way we eat today. We'll taken the lessons of prohibition by way of a radio butu. You've got it. A radio beer tour. From there it's on to one of the nation's leading intellectuals. Robert Kuttner and his new book a presidency in peril. We'll look at the consequences of President Obama's in actions from failing to take on Wall Street behemoths to his bipartisanship fantasy. Up next from prohibition to the presidency. First the news. From NPR News in Washington on trial Snyder Arizona's tough new

immigration law is getting a lot of attention in Washington today. Mexican President Felipe Calderon is in town on a state visit. He and President Obama have just wrapped up a joint news conference where Mr. Obama called the law misguided. What I've directed my Justice Department do is to look very carefully at the language of this law to see whether it comports both with our core values and existing legal standards as well as the fact that the federal government is ultimately the one charged with immigration policy. At the start of today's state visit Calderon criticized Arizona's law NPR's Ari Shapiro reports on the welcoming ceremony. Mexican and American flags dotted the White House grounds as Mexico's president and first lady pulled up on the South Lawn. Both heads of state pledged to cooperate on challenges facing Mexico and the U.S. but only Calderon mentioned Arizona by name. Speaking through an interpreter he said we must create a border that will unite rather than divide us. We can do so with a community that will promote a

dignify and live in an orderly way for both our countries. Who are some of them still living here in the shadows. With such lows laws as the Arizona law that is placing our people to face discrimination. Tonight the Obamas host the Calderon's for a state dinner the second of this administration. Ari Shapiro NPR News the White House. Lannes prime minister says he's confident his government will soon restore order. He spoke in a televised address on a day marked by rioting and spreading fires in Bangkok after troops crackdown on protesters and one time curfew is in effect in the Thai capital and 23 other provinces but there are still sporadic clashes consumer prices declined in April for the first time in 13 months. As NPR's Tamara Keith reports tumbling energy prices are getting the credit. The Consumer Price Index is the most widely cited inflation gauge. And in April consumers saw prices drop by one tenth of a percent. Energy prices

fell one point four percent. With gasoline prices dropping even more than that the only thing that got more expensive in April were recreation and medical care. But just barely. If you subtract a volatile food and fuel prices the core consumer price index rose just nine tenths of a percent year over year. That's the smallest increase since 1966. Brian Bethune is an economist at IHS Global Insight. In my view. Greater risk at this point is the situation around with inflation which is why he and many other analysts don't expect the Federal Reserve to raise interest rates anytime soon. Tamara Keith NPR News Washington on Wall Street stocks are down the Dow has fallen 62 points to ten thousand four hundred forty eight. This is NPR. Good afternoon I'm Marty Arneson sitting in for Kelly Crossley This is the Calla Crossley Show. Good Listener beer. I will tell you so. And I wasn't.

There must be something in the air. As I was preparing for our first interview about beer I noticed a story in today's New York Times about taxing soda. Now trust me this is relevant imbedded in the story was a nugget of information that I want you to hold onto. According to a Yale researcher the link between obesity and soda is scientifically stronger than the link between obesity and any other type of food or beverage. Got that. While we're kicking off the hour with a look at prohibition for 13 years between 1900 to 1933 Americans cannot legally drink though that seems like a century ago. Its influences continue to affect us today. Well let's take beer as an example. The introduction of prohibition sent the brewing industry into a tailspin. Regional brewers of all sizes stop brewing all together and the larger Brewers including Anheuser-Busch and Pabst stayed afloat by making near bare bare containing less than 0.5 percent alcohol by the end of prohibition. Americans had cultivated a

taste for light lagers this Bud's for you and another bubbly beverage. Sweet soda. Joining me to talk about how the consequences of prohibition touched us today is Nick Kemp. Nick is an educator at the Lower East Side Tenement Museum in New York City. He also gives beer tours and an effort to ensure a truth in advertising. Hacky is my stepson. Nicole welcome. Hello Arnie How are you. I'm great I'm great. So I just need to set this up. We're in New York City the weekend of the Times Square bombing. I mean talk about picking it perfect and we're walking around Brooklyn and you are talking and you're lamenting the loss of all the little breweries in New York and how there used to be hundreds of them and they just didn't exist they don't exist anymore. And I'm not all gone they're all gone Larry. Why what happened. And then they started telling me this amazing story. And not only was it an amazing story but it made such remarkable connections to what's happening today. So I just said no you've got to

come on because actions do have consequences and we're constantly looking at governments sort of manipulating you know our behavior. But here was something that I think had consequences that so many people be shocked about. So welcome to the program and start telling the story. Sure. If I could start I mean the history of beer in the world. It's some people argue it's as old if not older than bread. Beer is the core center of civilization. Oh well it goes back to you know the Egyptians it goes back to the Samarian is the oldest recipe in the world is a beer recipe written on a tablet. Betty Crocker is going to challenge you on that one but that's OK. But beer specifically lager beer comes to America with the Germans the Germans come over starting in the 1840s and 1850s everybody in New York City's drinking whiskey everybody New York City's drinking ale and Porter. The Germans come. They bring their beer. They bring their culture and the brewing industry is born

as we know it in New York by 900. There were forty eight breweries in Brooklyn and on my tour I give tours of some of these abandoned ones from my urban oyster tours but forty eight of them. And by 1976 there were zero. The the biggest out of all is in 1976 there were fewer than 40 breweries in the United States of America. Are you kidding. Now they all disappeared. And Prohibition was the absolute body blow to us. It obliterated an industry and this is not just an industry you know people drink and booze this is. This is work. This is money. This is a multimillion dollar industry in New York and all disappeared. But you were walking around the city and you were saying So OK if beer disappeared I mean everyone has this image of you know making stuff in your bath tubs and stills and all that stuff but you said you know a lot of that is true but we really did switch

our palate that when beer and booze disappeared for the most part we started consuming something else and as you were telling me the story I was sitting there going oh my God if we only had played this sucker out if we had just lasted. Yeah exactly exactly. Adolphus Busch in St. Louis Missouri starts to make his money during prohibition by making its called King cola. Amazingly marketed brilliant Cola and he of course perfect bottling and the perfect canning and America stops being a beer drinking country and starts to adopt this newer lighter thing which is soda. And then after Prohibition was over the American palate was unaccustomed to tasty strong beers. So you know you reach for a soda and if you do you reach for a beer make it a light one make it as rice beer make it a lager That's about 2.5 to 3.5 percent alcohol and we've suddenly lost this culture that we were weaned on. We know 13 years 13 years without a drink.

It's unbelievable because I was looking through some of the history books and today we know that this probably isn't true because I'm looking at the New York Times today. I mean it's almost like they planned for your visit. I just want to let you know and I guess that ARE YOU read the article. Oh it's fantastic there's an article today in the business day section of The New York Times it's entitled The battle over taxing soda. But the reason I went kooky when I was reading this piece was that as I was going back and looking at some of the advertising during prohibition for the sale of soda obviously something to replace the bubbly scents from beer. Here's one of the ads. It isn't medicinal won't cure anything isn't intoxicating or habit forming. It's just flavor ie fruit snappy sparkling delicious. And I'm. That sounds so wonderful. I know what actually you know what really boosted soda in the United States as well. You know people who drink in booze and prohibition and all the speakeasies you know the stuff is rocket. They had to have something to mask the taste of this really shoddy basically nail varnish. So

Ginger Beer tonic water these are all created and marketed to mask the taste of really really bad cheap booze. It was unbelievable. But as as you were looking at this the other thing you also pointed out was was that not only did prohibition turn on this sweet tooth because we went from these strong dark you know beers to this now very soon you know syrup the sweet soda or this point five per cent near beer all my fried it sounds like something else but I can say it on radio. But at the same time as I'm I'm looking at this. The other thing is is that you would have thought that once the 21st Amendment was passed and we said to people OK the spigots are open then you would see a return to what people now so long I mean it's ironic people aren't talking about all of the microbrewery and I want people that I know who's making it and I want the different varieties. But we didn't go back to what existed before Prohibition. What the h.

It's crazy and it's such a coincidence I got to meet Daniel Okrent last night who wrote a new book about prohibition that has just come out called Last Call. And he talked about this too. It wasn't prohibition that obliterated beer in the United States as much as the repeal of prohibition. The sounds of what you say is that you know what I want to make sure that I am absorbing this I hope my audience is listening listen to the state and it sounds like you know sky is blue or red or black or what. It was easier to get a drink during prohibition than it was after Prohibition was repealed. OK. Now place for a prohibition before Prohibition you would drink your beer at the brewery in New York City that's what everybody did. It was a beer garden. One thing that I disagree with Daniel oaken is he says that the saloons were a man only establishment and that's very true. But the German beer garden was women and his kids and his grandparents and that's where you went on a Sunday after church you went and everybody drank beer together because beer was the healthiest

liquid in New York City. There were no laws saying you couldn't sell beer at a brewery and then after prohibition is repealed they say OK you can have your booze America. But there's a few things that gotta go down. First of all if you're brewery you can't sell your beer. You got anyways. If you're a brewery you can't sell your beer. Now if you can a brewing business on E. If you're beurre you've got to sell your beer to a distributor and your strip will sell it to the public and the distributor is this middleman in New York City that starts to make all the money in the beer industry. All these small brewers they can't do it. There's They just can't get through this market they can't sell the beer out of their brewery so they all start to shut down and tied into this was World War 1. This was also a time when people are saying Germans Well we don't want anything German. So what the brewers do is they for the first time they latch a

food or a liquid I should say beer to this concept of being an American. Budweiser delivers a case of beer on the day probation is repealed. To Roosevelt to the White House and its Clydesdales and these are people who are doing anything they can this sounds like some well Meyerbeer seem American it does sound like the old ones I mean. Where is my American flag quite quick. No American These are the most American people businessmen in the United States were Germans who had every every beer ad had a picture of the Capitol building. Yeah it had an eagle and it had Uncle Sam every single ad and then when Prohibition was repealed people want to support America so they drink. You know this this Budweiser which was initially created actually even as one of those near beers Budweiser was first in your beer. So no wonder they're in their country so. So not only are they brilliant in the marketing I tell you we are such suckers you know. I love your ass I have a sort of American it really isn't about capitalism it surely should be called sucker ism is what it should be called.

But as I'm listening to this the other thing though was that we also saw that beer came from a different place and that the kind of beer that people drank was different and in our opening we talked about the supersizing of the of the corporations that now started selling beer. Tell me about that because everyone is looking at agribusiness today and this is kind of like the beginning stages of you know what we call Kraft Foods and you know car you know and yeah it's really scary. Sure well. And isor Busch currently owns fifty seven point six percent of the beer market in the United States. The other the other majority it's Coors and Miller they own it all. And the reason they got so big is because they are the ones who invested most in bottling and canning all these breweries in New York City were absolutely content to sell the beer out of their bars. Because New York is a big city with lots of people and tons of money. But if you're in the Midwest you've got to get your beer out there so they're canning it and they're bottling it and they're using refrigerated cars and they're using kegs and suddenly this is my favorite stat.

In 1990 10 percent of the beer in this country was bottled by 1980. Ninety percent of the beer in the United States comes from a bottle or a can instead of a keg. Wow. So you know if you're an environmentalist you're really ticked. Yes. I tell you I see. Most of you know the consequences. You have bad environmental situation where obviously now we got cans and beer cans and bottles that we've got to get rid of and dispose of so we have a whole new industry that's created and landfill city unless you have a bottle bill. And then on top of that you go from that to thou you know embracing sweet sugary soda and I'll and I'm looking at that story in today's New York Times and there are two rationales for taxing soda. One of the reasons they want to tax soda is they're desperate for revenue and ironically beer and booze was also about revenue so there is definitely a connection there you know whatever we can come up with as an excuse to slap a tax on we will. But the other reason to tax soda is that

soda now really is this directly to obesity and the amount of soda we are consuming is mind boggling. And yet you go back to prohibition. And in that 13 years Americans didn't have the same kind of sweet tooth before Prohibition. But by the end of prohibition we have changed our palate. Oh my. It's a lot. It's one of those mothers and wives and those temperance women you want to lay the Monaco you know where you got it. Listen what have you done to your children and see the difference too is that you said that they were you know in the German beer gardens. There were families but for the most part you really didn't associate beer and booze and seven year olds and nine year olds and 12 year olds. But you do associate that with soda and kids and now looking at obesity and Type 2 diabetes and all these issues. And isn't it ironic that what we've created to sort of protect our children may in the end have hurt our children. Right and it's not just obesity Arni it's something else. It's it's the American mindset after a

mindset of prohibition. I want to use I can use myself a college actually has a very good example and I hope my father isn't here in this but take for example a kid going to college. He is told he's you know he's under 21 and he's told that he can't. He has no access to alcohol. So when he does get alcohol What is he going to get is he going to get a you know a six pack of tasty beer or is he going to get a big bottle of whiskey a big bottle of booze. The same thing happened for the whole country. People are told alcohol is illegal so when you do get it you're not going to look at this small beer is a temperance drink it's not that alcoholic. It's very tough to get drunk off of these early loggers. But suddenly this culture is created where people are hungry for booze and they want to drink these really alcoholic drinks in these speakeasies. And that pervades to today where we don't have the connection as a kid growing up. Beer is always around. Beer is good for you. Enjoy it in moderation. That's gone. And college kids are buying huge jugs buckets of booze anything that they can

sneak into a party or sneak past the cops. Not a good six pack of beer which wouldn't hurt anybody in the law. I want people to keep remembering this Nick I have to let you go but actions are sure consequences. Actions have consequences and when you start playing this out here's the good news I just read that the book about prohibition written by the New York Times editor Mr. O'Quinn is going to be put into some sort of you know documentary film by Ken Burns and I hope that he includes information like this because it's not just the story about prohibition. It almost needs to be divided into two places. You know the past what we did and then the result of what happened yeah. And but it should also include the. The hope which is we're getting there now finally after a century I mean that almost a century Jimmy Carter of the year I was born said for the first time you can brew beer in your own home legally. You can homebrew and that suddenly opens the doors to craft beer in the United States.

We're on the way back. We're on the way there. I'm already artists and we've been talking about the consequences of prohibition and beer coming back with Nick now but. Nick is an educator at the Lower East Side Tenement Museum and he also gives great beer to us. Thanks thanks so much for joining us. Thanks Arnie was a treat. Up next it's a look at Obama's missteps and lost opportunities. And of course the palpable anger evident at the electorate with wider economist and intellectual at large. Robert Kuttner Stay tuned. With.

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Take advantage of these sweet deals and do your part for WGBH at the same time securely on line at auction dot dot org. And. Informed local political talk. There's a lot to talk about here in Boston. I described my show as a these days show Cali crossly. We take a topic and look at it over a period of time talking Boston brown seem to come from nowhere in the media didn't seem to be able to detect his surge until it was detectable by polls. Weekdays at 1 on the new eighty nine point seven WGBH radio. The voice of the Boston Symphony Orchestra. And I want to invite you to join me in a learning tour is a fabulous trip to the Berkshires this July 4 full days of music theatre and art. Learn more at WGBH tours. Good afternoon I'm Arnie Arnesen sitting in for Kelly Crossley. My guest Robert Kuttner is one of our

nation's leading intellectuals. OK I'll be honest he's one of my heroes. Anyway he's an economist who helped create and now co edits the progressive magazine The American Prospect. He's the author of numerous books. His latest work is a presidency in peril. The inside story of Obama's promise Wall Street power and the struggle to control our economic future. Robert Kuttner It's been way too long. Welcome Jose. Pleasure Arnie. Well I just want make to make sure that given last night's election and given the fact that we're talking about Barack Obama you have no excuse. I really want to know how you feel about Obama's performance. Are you frustrated by his I love this word timid governing. Should we cut him some slack for inheriting such a mess. Has he exceeded your expectations and maybe in light of last night did last night's election returns send him a message. Our number is 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0. That's 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0. And you've got a really smart guy sitting here so I'm sure not only we feel your questions but I'll make you

think you wrote this book every time I turn around you're writing a book and the book is being written about exactly what I'm like bitch and moan about and this one is a presidency in peril. I was in Chicago on election night. You need to know that. And I was covering the election for SB STV Australia and I sat in a room with all the international media. And I was so privileged to be there. Portugal you know Israel Turkey and when CNN called it for Brock you heard the screaming outside but you didn't get to see what I saw. I got to saw hundreds of international reporters jump up in tears in tears screaming and running out of the room. So I was floating back home. It's now 2010. I am looking at a situation especially last night with some interesting election returns. What I'm looking at a sense of disappointment. And if I were writing a

book my title would have been a presidency in peril. It would have been majestic disappointment. Well. Yeah you know I had written this book not even two years ago called Obama's challenge which was published in August of 2008 when I think all of us were feeling the audacity of hope to coin a phrase and part of it was that he wasn't Bush part of it what he was was that he was an outsider that he was an African-American that he was eloquent that he was idealistic that he could inspire people that he built in on the ground organization and part of it was the collapse the economic collapse. So excuse me. So if there was ever a Roosevelt moment for radical reform this looked like a Roosevelt moment and my heart started sinking when I saw who was economic team wise. Now you can understand why he did it. If you go back to April May June of 0 8

and Obama realizes that hey I'm going to become the nominee and people are saying he's a Muslim he's a radical he's got a preacher who hates white people. He consorts me that he's the sort of portfolio that's very familiar. Well so he says first of all I better send for the A-team. We sent for the wrong A-Team. He sent for the old guard. It was almost like Roosevelt sending for Hoover's economic team. You have Larry Summers the bridge to the deregulation of the Clinton era. You have Tim Geitner the bridge to the deregulation of the Bush era and both summers and Geitner worked very closely with Bush's Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson on the bailout then to frost the cake. You have the reappointment unnecessarily of Ben Bernanke and you have Rahm Emanuel who came to prominence as a political fundraiser and then got rich on Wall Street himself. So with that

team Paul Volcker is the radical. I repeat Paul Volcker the guy who raised interest rates to twenty one point five percent helped take down Jimmy Carter the radical in the room is Paul Volcker. And they kept him in kind of a glass case in case of emergencies and for Paul Volcker and after Scott Brown won the election for Ted Kennedy so they rolled him out for 50 they rolled him out for 15 minutes exactly. So part one is he's a newbie. He could've been the outsider as radical but rather he's the outsider as I'm going to be validated by the old guard you met him. I mean we've seen him. He wasn't he never wanted to act or look or sound like a radical I mean he was such a it was so comfortable in that. Trust me I'm not going to make you nervous and I'm not going to rock the boat. You know it'll be OK. But I think what he did understand was to have something. Ok didn't need to basically recycle the same economic failure that we were in that we were basically

about to do again. OK so part two is his own character his own Odyssey his own temperament. And this is a man who believes deeply in the search for common ground. There was a lot of talk about post ideological solutions and bipartisanship and changing the tone in Washington. Barney Frank in in January of 0 9 said to me you know a lot of this a lot of us thought this was a very clever campaign tactic but I'm beginning to afraid that he means it. So for 14 months. Oh my God I wasn't politician. No I'm naive Paula I know you've already because for 14 months the Republicans beat him bloody and he's still searching for common ground and it was only after Scott Brown wins he loses the 60 vote majority in the Senate that he starts flirting with the idea. Maybe I ought to be a partisan but you know what's scary is is that it's not just about the Republicans that are beating him up. It's about the fact that they're beating us

up because they have now. You know helped to get the anger more intense the anger now across the country is nuclear where the anger goes though it's problematic because he has sat there saying you know the moments I want to work with you I'm going to be nice and I'm sitting there going I want to cross the side of the head like you know look what they're doing. Because as you are trying to extend your hand they are not only rejecting that hand but they are changing the conversation in America. Most Americans wanted health care reform but they time they thought it wasn't about health it was about death. I mean how did they turn something positive inside out except that he was sitting on the sidelines not providing the narrative that would have at least countered what the Republicans did well and they they took too long they let Max Baucus for trying to find some kind of common ground with Grassley and the other Republicans it sort of sat there and festered month after month after month to change the metaphor. It sucked out all the oxygen in the room. But OK so we have his temperament as a consensus guy.

We have the fact that he decided to send for the old team. But then we have something else. And in a presidency and paralyzed and a lot of time talking about the residual power of Wall Street. So it's all wait. Wall Street is totally disgraced. The idea of free market capitalism is a shambles the ideology is a disgrace. The practical result is a disgrace the administration is in disgrace. You would think this would be a moment for radical reform but guess what. Wall Street manages to get bailed out and the administration doesn't say OK we're giving you almost a trillion dollars of taxpayer aid where you give us a quid pro quo you were three trillion of Fed guarantees. We're going to reform you guys. Summers and I was in the room for some of those conversations. Summers decided that no this is not a moment to transform Wall Street this is a moment to rebuild confidence. Now that system was not worthy of my way.

This is not a moment to rebuild Wall Street. Confident in garbage stuff that fails in people who are out of control of the dollar that is then my nation. Are any of the policy was to was to prop it back up zombie banks. I mean Citi Group by any indicator was insolvent and they. They propped it up they breathed life of our number is only 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0 that's 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0 We're talking with Robert Kuttner is his narrative that Kuttner is describing does that make sense to you is that what you are seeing is that getting you excited about the 2010 elections does that make you want to take a shower. I'm just sort of curious or before we all slit our wrists let me let me give everybody a little bit of a basis for hope. Okay so about three weeks ago Goldman is sued for fraud by the Securities and Exchange Commission. And people who had been mystified by the game suddenly got it. What's the game. The game is Goldman

creates a ton of junk so that it's hedge fund customers the wise guys can bet against it and then it sells this stuff to other people as if it's good stuff with a golden seal of approval. And people who didn't know a credit default swap from a collateralized debt obligation started grasping what the game was. Now the tide has really turned in Congress. The difference between health reform and banking reform is that. The Obama health plan was pretty much of a stinker. It was not a good plan. It wasn't universal health insurance. It was let's divert a ton of money from Medicare so that the private insurance guys can insure the 15 percent of the people half of them who don't have insurance and we're going to have a mandate to make you buy insurance even if you can't afford it. And by the way if you have good insurance we're going to tax it because we need a ton of money to subsidize the insurance industry and that's not going to happen till 2014. So he's right you know I imagine or is this you know this was not hard for Republicans to vote against it was not hard for Republicans to demonize but the financial

reform bill which is getting better by the day because the 30 progressives in Congress keep toughening it with strengthening amendments that the Republicans are embarrassed to vote against. This is great. It puts Republicans on display as the toadies for Wall Street and the bill is getting a lot tougher than what Dodd wanted or what the administration we have a caller on the line. We have Nancy calling and Nancy welcome to the program how are you. Really good. So Nancy you know you have a really good question and I think this is a little reality therapy for Bob. So why don't you ask Bob your question. Well my question is that if in fact there was this progressive agenda was a reality then where were the people. Where were the vote. You know I sympathize with a lot of what you're saying but I also see the reality on the ground is that the grass root is just not there to support these progressive agendas. And it's not just grassroots Nancy I hate to break it to you right. I think when you went to the votes and Bob you know that you know you might have a D next to your name but for example the Democrat that just

won in Murtha's seat. He's pro-gun anti-choice doesn't like health care ran against health care reform. He's a Democrat. That's not a vote that's going to get you anything close to a revised health care reform. Well there are there are I think the caller's right. There are two game changers in American politics. One is leadership by a very unusual president and the other is social movements. And if you look at the great presidents that transformative presidents Lincoln Roosevelt Johnson before he ruined it all in Vietnam Johnson is a civil rights President. All three of these presidents had movements pushing him to be more progressive Lincoln had the abolitionists Roosevelt had the industrial labor movement. Johnson had the civil rights movement. So we need a movement on our side. And if you if you have a president like Obama who raises hopes sky high 71 percent of first time voters voted for this guy. People had tears in their eyes. Election night I was. Well we'll tell you where I was. But the point is if you raise hopes sky high and you don't deliver the initiative passes to the

tea parties. It's always that with this well you know it's worse than that. Nancy I just want to have you hear this story because I think part of the problem is where were the progressives for a long time. Another message has been coming out and we need to understand it. I always tell the story. I'm it's 1996 I'm running for Congress they bring me up to a very very poor town in northern New Hampshire. I walk into the room it's a set up. Everyone there is ready to basically you know roll me over with a cleaver they just they don't want me there. And they said we really don't like you Ari. And I said really we've never met. And they said no no no we don't like you because you like those welfare women. And I said Excuse me. And they said we just want you to know something. We work 50 60 and 70 hours a week and we don't have health insurance. We work 50 60 and 70 hours a week and no one takes care of our kids or gets us more education. Nobody but those deadbeat welfare women look what they get. Listen to this guy I'm going you know you're absolutely right. I'd be so ticked off too. I said but I'm a little confused here. How does taking you know food or

education assistance or health care away from welfare women get it for you. I say you know what it sounds like it doesn't seem like there's something wrong with welfare. It sounds like there's something wrong with war. And that's the problem is that there is so much anger out there and the anger is focused not on the solution but on anger. So they'll be angry at government they'll be angry at Medicaid they'll be angry at everyone but what they don't recognize is that what they're angry about is that they don't get part of that American dream. Well and if you don't have a strong social movement we don't have a strong labor movement right now. We don't have anything like the civil rights movement the strongest movement on the ground right now is probably the immigrant rights movement. Some of the movements that want to rescue people's mortgages. But in the absence of that and I'm not saying we shouldn't build one we should build one. What galls me and what disappoints me what exasperates me is you have a president with with the

gift that Obama has as a storyteller as a narrator absolutely could be moving public opinion. I mean we should be doing jobs jobs jobs jobs instead we're doing deficit reduction. And it's almost like they want to give Karl Rove a gift. They want to blow away Democratic incumbents in the fall because they're satisfied with an unemployment rate of nine point nine percent in an election year. And rather than putting forward a really major jobs program and talking about what needs to be done. You've got these woks these policy wonks talking to themselves saying we have to reassure financial markets so we better know they have a debt. Sure me we have a caller on the line. Nancy thanks so much for calling. We have William calling from Webster Welcome to the program William how are you doing. Doing fine. Yeah I was I was just thinking you know that the health care issue that we were trying to take care of Obama at the very very beginning during his campaign he was embracing the chair of the Senate

thing. Then all of sudden that result and then is up Eric Cantona can't be run from for the Republicans to try to get you know support on both sides of the aisle when he really should have just been part of them and just put his foot down because you know I saw him as a very crass can buy and he he just didn't look like him that the run he looked like he was going to get stuff done. You know and then all of a sudden he just does. But let me turn to Bob. So so Bob as you hear this we all had this image of what he is and he still has time. I mean you know the sad thing is it's in your first year of a presidency that you want to do all the heavy lifting. That's the best time because like you see Time to let people see how well it worked or didn't work. So he's kind of squandered that first year and he was given so many opportunities. I mean I mean from afar you got BP you got health care you have you have just a host of things to pick from.

Well I I did a column 10 days ago saying boy this is a teachable moment. You've got the blowout in the Gulf. You've got the mining disaster. You've got Goldman. Why isn't the president connecting the dots with the president on the defensive for the Gulf oil spill. Finally got angry at BP and Halliburton. And he needs to show some teeth we need to show Obama expressing some indignation on the part of people who are getting the short end of the stick. So he squandered the first year. The question is did he learn from it. And we're beginning to see that. The difficulty is it's now may almost June an election year. And if he doesn't pick up his game very very quickly the Republicans are going to have a very big Tea Party in November. And we have a lot of callers and I'll get you out when we need to go to a break but I just I just want to remind you and before we go to the break part of the problem with his learning curve and you're right is not only did I think he squandered that first year Bob but now we have the Citizens United

case where the Supreme Court has allowed unlimited cash to flow into the system. And I'm sitting there going it was so much easier last year. It's so much harder now because of Citizens United are going to go to a break. We're talking with Robert Kuttner His latest book is a presidency in peril the inside story of Obama's promise. Wall Street's power and the struggle to control our economic future. We'll continue the conversation after this break. Stick with us. With the.

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I'm Arnie Arnesen sitting in for Kelly Crossley This is the Kelly Crossley Show. I'm talking with Robert Kuttner he's one of our leading intellectuals He's an economist who helped create and now what is the progressive magazine The American Prospect. He's the author of numerous books and I mean numerous books but his latest work is a presidency in peril. The inside story of Obama's promise Wall Street power and the struggle to control our economic future. We know you want to participate in this conversation. So give us a buzz at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0. That's 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0. Bill from Newton you've been so patient let me welcome you to the program. You saw there Bill. Did we lose some. Hear me. Yes sure. Thank you for taking my call. Very briefly I'm curious as to how much we're going to hold the previous administration and administrations accountable for this unfortunately. The president one of his promises was to build a consensus to accomplish his promises. I think there was a

little naive by him. However I think in addition I wish he would have hired more academics to his cabinet. It was a distraction and more. Economists and educators as opposed to drawing a lot from Wall Street and its extremities. And I think this should be addressed I wouldn't hold him completely accountable I think everybody or a lot of the people of course in his administration are just as guilty. So how long can you you know recycle George Bush I guess is the question but after after and after 16 or 17 months it becomes your crisis. And you know you think about more people from his administration. You know I may be in the middle ranks who are still around from what I gather. But you know what. He no one knows who's in the middle ranks all they know I think Bob is what he says and how he frames the issue and how he takes it to the mat am I correct isn't that he's the focus.

Well he's the focus but he's chosen to hire people who really represent the old guard who if you know you compare him with Roosevelt. This is this is May of one thousand thirty four. And in may have 134 unemployment is still 18 percent. But guess what. The Democrats pick up seats in both houses in the November 34 election because they know that Roosevelt is on their side. They know that help is on the way and the right win was every bit as obstructionist the right wing hated Roosevelt that goes with the territory if you try to transform things. You're going to have Wall Street obstructing are you going to have the right wing obstructing you. But you have to rise to the occasion and lead. And it helps if you have a social movement pushing you prodding you opening up space. Well you know the other problem is Bill and actually you talk about this in your book I was able to glance through it I apologize for not reading the whole thing. But in a presidency in peril you also point to the fact that he kind of looks at Bill Clinton a little like he's a role model. And Bill Clinton's legacy is not necessarily a good template for what Barack Obama has to

do because you know Bill wanted to rise above politics. Bill was able to play footsie with Republicans. He was able to do all these things but he was it he wasn't hurting Poppy. I mean he didn't have a BP. He didn't have you know Afghanistan and Iraq and Iran. He didn't have a real job and the recession and the numbers I mean he was winning. And him and Hillary Exactly so. So it's really kind of scary because his last Democratic role model doesn't necessarily lay a foundation for the right approach this time around. Well you know in the in the last chapter of the book where I thought what I what what he couldn't do. I suggest that the choice of role model is either Clinton or Truman and I broke out part of that chapter as as an article in The American Prospect under the title given Halle Barry because of Harry Truman. His back is to the wall. It's 48. Nobody thinks he's going to be re-elected. And Truman just decides to throttle the Republicans he calls them back into special session even though they have a

majority of Congress. He sends up a bill after bill after bill just to make them vote against it. He goes on the campaign trail in a in a railway car for six weeks and his rhetoric gets tougher and tougher and tougher and he discovers his New Deal selfie wasn't that great a new deal or during the 30s. But boy it was a great new dealer in 48 and he wins. And guess what. There is a swing of 75 seats in the House of Representatives in the fall of 48 from Republican to Democrat so there are moments when it's good when it's necessary to be a partisan if the other side wants to destroy you. If there is no common ground to be had. Why not rise to the occasion why not be a leader and I think I think I hate to use the Clinton line here but remember what he said. It's better to be strong and wrong than weak in quiet or whatever for whatever it was. I think especially now people are looking for strong leadership. They equate strength with right. You know he gave my right I think that's true Bill I did some other cause a lot of. Bill thanks for calling from Newton.

You have to go. He gave a very interesting commencement address a couple weeks ago at an arbor University mission. First part of it was great he talked about all the things all the reasons you need government in the second part of the speech. It's the same old appeal to consensus he said if if you listen to Rush Limbaugh or watch Fox maybe you should also take a look at having him post as if there are a kind of a quibble and as if you can post as crazy as he is as crazy as Limbaugh is. And it reminded me of Robert Frost's definition of a liberal. He said A liberal is the fellow who is so open minded that he won't take his own side in an argument and love that put Yeah. Hello. Yeah yeah yeah. Maybe that's the difference with a progressive. But people expect leadership in a crisis just leading even if they don't agree with the particulars. That's worth five or ten points all by itself. We have we have I think it's Trina calling from Jamaica Plains Welcome to the program Trina. Yes hi thanks for taking my phone call. I just wanted to offer

another perspective on this idea of Obama's squandering the first year. And I just want to push back on that because I think that for a lot of young African American men and you know use of color in general I think that you know the image of Obama being in office I think has had a very positive impact. On use of color in shrouds and their self-identity and how they see themselves and how they imagine their futures. And I know that we're talking about squandering on a particular level. But you know I think that to say that it's been a complete wash or is I think is disingenuous because I think that Obama's presidency is having impacts in many different ways. It was very very important for multiple communities. And I just wanted to offer that as a perspective on this argument that his first year in office is going to squander.

And I would say that that's not I think that's an overstatement. The let me talk about it that's true because he's not you. Thank you very much for the comment. Writing this book was a real challenge because I don't want to do what the right does and just trash Barack Obama. I want Barack Obama to succeed. We've all invested so much hope in this man not just African-American young men but people of goodwill progressives of every possible. Background we need him to succeed. And it's not enough that he is an exemplary role model. He also has to deliver a recovery. He also has to name the people in the forces that are standing in the way of delivering the recovery and history judges presidents very harshly. It's not enough that he's the first African-American president and that he's an exemplary human being and that he's a role model. He also has to succeed as a president.

And this is really hard. And Trina First of all they're not mutually exclusive. He will be an even more phenomenal role model if you've seen even more. I mean look at this. Look at the challenges he has to face. I mean they're enormous. Most presidents couldn't imagine all of them happening at once it's kind of synergistic in this ways. It's getting worse I think you know. And you know I think I think that. I don't disagree with anything that it did that either of you have said I'm just suggesting that when we're having these kind of conversations in a public forum like a radio you know that having having some mindfulness about the different impacts of what's happening I think is just is just important and it's only fair and that that that's where I'm coming from. And I heard back to that that's how it resonates for me. And Trina let me let me share something with you. How do you we talked about the movement. Remember you were saying that we're looking for a movement. How do you create a movement in this media climate. It's a very very challenging climate our newspapers are disappearing. There's consolidation happening everywhere. The internet is useful but not necessarily so

useful because we sort of hunker down in these sort of little web sites that we all go to over and over again. So the opportunity of a conversation. And sometimes when you are critical of someone it isn't a negative. It's a way to say find your spine where there find your spine. And sometimes you have to be reminded of that that you were elected to be much more than a role model. You were like this to walk through some very very challenging times and not everyone is going to like you when you're done. But your job isn't to be liked. It's ultimately to make that change that you claimed you wanted. Well I think the question of how we build movements I think is a really important one and I think that that should be a continual conversation it's always come back to that. And when you have the answer call me I just get my phone. It's 877 No. I thank so much we have Seth said calling us from Falmouth Welcome to the program set how are you. Hi thanks for taking my call. Welcome. Yeah I wanted to talk about all of the talk about the young people in this country and in regard to you know policy that our leaders are making and

make every day on our behalf. You know people from the ages of 20 to 25 and that's want to talk about how how difficult it can be to get your point across to our leaders. You know it's the seeds because we're not really taking all that seriously most of the time and and it seems like we have you know. Older You know people of our parents generation and their parents generation making decisions for us and you know we try and get our word out there but it seems like we're not really heard that much and it can be very be out meeting it. And I just wanted to hear your guest's opinion on this. You know Barack Obama's movement in 2007 2008 was a movement of young people. Yeah he had 30000 organizers that they trained at Camp Obama they had 1.3 million volunteers they had 13 million people most of them young connected by the Internet. They had a movement. And

when he took office his political guys shot it down. They turned it into an adjunct to the Democratic National Committee. So you had all these young people you had a whole generation that saw hope in politics for the first time in years that was motivated that was inspired. And then it just kind of crumbled. So I think people need not to rely on a president to get organized but people need to organize themselves and take that frustration and turn it into action. You know what that says to me though Seth I'm listening to you and I'm listening to Bob. And what scares me is is that somehow people are only important every four years. And that when you shutdown an operation like this it's almost like not recognizing that all the heavy lifting happens really after the election and that it's so important to stay connected to to get Seth's involved in everywhere I mean Seth you are in a lot of ways like the unemployed the people who have lost their jobs in Arizona and California Massachusetts. Only it's worse for you you know why. Not only are you like overwhelmed with

debt but on top of that you don't have a job. So you walk into the into the into the market with no work history trying to figure out how to describe yourself not having a job and have and coming out of school of lots of that. I mean the worst possible time when you need to be talked to the most because you are the future. You are the you know I mean and I've worked on political campaigns I would I've worked with you know in history and over and over again. I I find myself being very disillusioned seeing no results that don't mean anything you know. I work I work hard I work 40 hours a week. This seems to mean my government also works just as hard. Were times started like you know I just sometimes it's hard to keep a point when people you know when when I don't and said I need to let you go but the last customer to cigarette to Mr. Kuttner is is that Mr. Connor did Rand Paul's win last night.

Give us an interesting template about how we have to have a conversation to organize people you can answer it. So you got to come back but I want you to think Is there a Rand Paul on the other side. Lots of our lots of populous are going to win this fall I are going to lose. Remember that this is of course the callee Crossley Show we've been talking with Robert Kuttner his new book is a presidency in peril. The inside story of Obama's promise Wall Street power and the struggle to control our economic future. You can catch him here in Boston June 3rd at the ford hall forum for information visit Ford hall forum. Robert Kuttner I'm coming back just to have you back. It's a pleasure thank you. This is already artisan sitting in for Kelly Crossley This is the Kelly Crossley Show. Today's program was engineered by Jane picked and produced by Chelsea Myers our production assistant is an all white not only for our production of The View GBH radio Boston NPR station for news and comment so.