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I'm Cally Crossley This is the Cali Crossley Show. Aristotle said that education is the best provision for old age. But these days it could be the route to a debt ridden away with college costing up to $50000 a year and the average student loan debt topping 20 grand is the cost of a conventional education Borthwick. So many Massachusetts students answer that with a resoundingly no. Earlier this week 150 of them stormed the statehouse imploring lawmakers to keep school affordable and education. A gift that keeps on giving. Not a colossal debt that keeps on taking. A look at the debilitating consequences of taking on student loans and what can be done if anything to avert them. From there it's another edition of pop culture maven Monica Collins is taking your calls on all things dog. Up next from costly college to canine country. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Jim Howard it is quickly ranking as one of the deadliest outbreaks of violent weather in nearly 40 years. Storms ripped across the south leaving more than

200 people dead. The sound of chain saws can be heard in communities throughout the south as crews are searching through splintered homes. Thank you and downed trees and power lines in one Tuscaloosa Alabama neighborhood. Homes are without roofs and personal belongings are scattered throughout the yards and streets. The University of Alabama's campus there was spared from any serious damage. Later today President Obama will announce a reshuffling of his national security team. NPR's Scott Horsley reports CIA Director Leon Panetta will be moving to the Pentagon to take over Iraq for Robert Gates who is retiring. Gates who's been defense secretary since the latter part of the Bush administration wants to step down this summer. The president has been urging Panetta to take over the job. And after some gentle persuasion Panetta agreed on Monday as Defense Secretary Panetta would be tasked with the beginning of a troop withdrawal from Afghanistan along with continued cuts in the military budget. Mr. Obama wants David Petraeus the commander of U.S. forces in Afghanistan to take over Panetta his job as head of

the intelligence agency. All of the moves are subject to Senate confirmation. Scott Horsley NPR News Washington. And the Obama administration is proposing to increase the number of waterways and wetlands protected by the federal government. NPR's Elizabeth Shogren reports the new policy comes after years of controversy over which streams wetlands and ponds should be considered waters of the U.S. The proposal would replace Bush administration policy interpret ing to Supreme Court cases. Those cases limited the wetlands and streams protected by the Clean Water Act. The new proposal would direct federal officials to protect streams that run only part of the year and wetlands near them. It could make it harder to get permits say to turn wetlands into agricultural fields or shopping malls. Obama administration officials stress that the new policy would not be binding. Environmentalists say it's a step in the right direction but they hope the Obama administration follows through on promises to develop legally enforceable regulations. Elizabeth Shogren NPR News Washington.

For the second time in three weeks unemployment claims are up an indication that the recovery is slow but on even the Labor Department says applications for unemployment benefits jumped 25000 last week bringing the seasonally adjusted rate to just under four hundred thirty thousand. This is the third straight rise in the first time the number of applicants has topped 400000 in two months. And Exxon the world's largest publicly traded company says it earned 11 billion dollars in the first three months of the year. This is high gas prices are at the center of the public's attention on Wall Street the Dow Jones Industrial Average is up forty five points to twelve thousand seven thirty seven. The Nasdaq composite is up six points a 28 63. You're listening to NPR News. From Washington. A Connecticut priest has been sentenced to three years in prison and three years of probation after taking more than a million dollars in church money and spending it on male escorts. An attorney for 65 year old Kevin Gray entered a plea of no contest on Gray's

behalf. The Republican American newspaper in Waterbury Connecticut reports that Rev. Gray will not have to pay the money back because the diocese of Hartford is not asking for restitution. A food fight between celebrity chefs and Los Angeles public schools seems to be over. NPR's Mandalit del Barco reports that the district has agreed to make some changes in its school lunch menus. On his reality TV show Food Revolution British chef Jamie Oliver challenge the L.A. school district to improve its food. When he was banned from shooting inside the schools he invited a group of students and their parents to see how much junk is in their cafeterias. To illustrate how much sugar is in the flavored milk served to students every week Oliver filled up an entire school bus. I'm trying to make it dramatic because I want to play. What the. Hell is new superintendent John Deasy responded this week on late night TV. Sitting next to Oliver on Jimmy Kimmel Live he announced. No more chocolate milk. So we're going to be recommending to the Board of Education by July actually eliminating that from our cafeteria.

Chef Oliver also a plot of the announcement saying flavored milks have more sugar than soda. Mandalit del Barco NPR News. The sound of a ceremonial guard playing in a parade at Buckingham Palace with less than a day to go before the royal wedding in London crowds are starting to assemble along the parade route. And final preparations are being checked by organizers and security personnel along the route towards Westminster Abbey. I'm Jim Howard. NPR News Washington. Support for NPR comes from CIT for last selling all callers of the Herman Miller air on chair on line including sit for a last true black on line at CIT for last dot com. Good afternoon I'm Kelly Crossley. This is the Kelly Crossley Show. We're entering the season of pomp and circumstance. This means students will be donning their mortar boards and walking away from the college campus with much more than a diploma. They'll also be carrying a lot of debt for the first time ever.

Americans are carrying higher balances on their student loans than on their credit cards. This hour we're looking at the high cost of a college education and what can be done to avert or at least lessen student loan debt. I'm joined by Lauren Asher president of the Institute for College Access and Success. Mark Kantrowitz publisher of the financial website fin aid dot org. And Zac Bissonnette a senior at UMass Amherst and author of Debt-Free you how I paid for an outstanding college education without loans. Scholarships are mooching off my parents. Welcome to you all. Thank you for having me. Listeners we want you to get in on this conversation at 8 7 7 3 0 1 0 8 0 9 7 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Let us know how deep your debt is. Was the degree worth the debt. Parents are you getting nervous sending your kids off to college because of the debt they'll accumulate and students. Are you worried about what will happen when

you graduate. 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 8 9 7 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. And you can send us a tweet or write to our Facebook page. Mark Kantrowitz I want to start with you. You're the publisher of the financial website fan a dot org. Give us a sense of how bad student debt is now cumulatively and then if you would if if there's been an increase in let's say the last five years share with us what that's been. Well student loan debt outstanding exceeded credit card debt outstanding for the first time in June of 2000. Then the total student loan debt outstanding around now is about 900 billion dollars. I expect it's going to hit one trillion dollars late this year early next year. And the total amount of new student loan debt over the last four years is about 300 billion dollars. This is long term debt whereas credit card debt tends to be short term debt. So the repayment trajectory is a lot slower with the student loans.

Can you see you know by looking at the numbers when let's say fewer Pell Grants fewer scholarships overall made the impact and the number started moving toward loans loans loans. Well the Pell Grant has on average increase by about one percent of the inflation rate since the start of the program in 1982. But there are feast famine cycles saying there were four years during the Bush administration with no increase. And then the stimulus bill increased it significantly to make up for that four years of no increases. The state's support of higher education also has a very strong impact whenever state governments cut their appropriations to the public colleges. That tends to lead to double digit tuition inflation in those states. So they are the primary driver

of increases and that is the point when need based grants don't keep up with increases in college costs. And we're going to see a lot of that out this fall. As we said at the beginning of the program or at leading into the program one hundred fifty students here in Massachusetts went down to the State House to say listen based on following just what Mark said. These fees are going up and now it's not just a matter of things being tight. It's about making a decision about whether I can go or not because according to an article in The Globe The average increase in fees will be four hundred eighty dollars here in the state and we're talking about public universities now. And if it if it all adds up it comes to about $700 that's a huge leap for a lot of students. Seven hundred dollars extra and you're just pulling it all together is quite a bit so we can see just on this small level how these fees are increasing relative to what Mark just said. Lauren these numbers don't surprise you. I guess you're the president of the

Institute for College Access and Success and. You've watched it as well. Absolutely. As Mark said we've seen college costs outpace family income and available granted as well as budget allocation and state budgets really are the big player and cost increases at public institutions and in general because the majority of students go to public colleges. Now one of the things that I know that you are dealing with is that by the end of October this year colleges are required. This is a federal requirement to create an online net price calculator so people know presumably what they're getting into that they cost it all out and they have a sense of what's what's happening is that yeah. Is that a way that people will have a better sense of what the cost. Oh Lauren are you still there. Yes. Sorry I just got out I heard an operetta calculator OK. Oh I'm sorry. I was saying that by the end of October the federal requirement is that colleges create an online net price calculator so. So presumably

parents and students know exactly what their cost will be and they can make some decisions relative to do I want to do this do I want to make this kind of investment. And I'm wondering if you think this kind of tool will be will pay off in helping people reduce the amount of debt they end up. They're right now they have incurred anyway. Well now presidential leaders can be an important tool for students and families to get a handle on what it might cost to go to a certain school. They are only for estimates and in fact the more precise they try and be often the harder they are to complete because they'll ask you to go look up your old financial bank statements and mortgage records. The goal is for them to actually be simple so that you can answer a few basic questions that you know without having to look anything up. And at least get a general sense of whether something is in your zone. The important thing is that the net price with these calculators have to include is the total cost of attendance.

That's not just tuition and fees but books housing food all those things that you actually need to get through school minus grant aid. Just eight you don't have to pay back so you can get a sense of how much you'd have to borrow. They've earned to go to school X versus school Y and then decide whether to apply after you apply you get a financial aid offer that tells you just exactly what those costs are going to. But my point is is that just at least having a good sense of the estimate of what it might be can help people make some decisions Zac Bissonnette which is really the essence of your book is like before you invest in this. Figure out how you can survive. Is it worth it to incur these loans you say no and know exactly what the investments going to be. Absolutely these net price calculators if they end up working the way that they're supposed to I think are going to be hugely important because when you look at financial aid letters now and Mark Kantrowitz and I have talked

about this a lot. They're not standardized. I just did a piece with Ron Lieber in the New York Times where I was showing how these financial aid letters are often very misleading. There was one that I just looked at from junior college that said that a Parent PLUS Loan would reduce the expense of college. In other words they were saying sending letters to students saying if your parents borrow money that reduces the expense. Obviously that's not true borrowing money increases the expense. So my hope is that these regulations will sort of force colleges to be more straightforward and to give sort of students a more standardized idea of what different colleges are going to cost. Were you surprised you wrote the book Debt for you how I paid for an outstanding college education without loans scholarships or mooching off my parents and I should note that you have yet to graduate you're coming up on graduation. But we're just a couple of weeks but were you surprised to know that student loan debt had outpaced credit card debt.

No I mean you know college costs have been increasing at two to three times the rate of inflation for a long time and granted it hasn't come up kept up with that and what we've gone from over the past you know 30 or 40 years or so is from student loans being virtually nonexistent to being you know the largest for consumer debt in America next to mortgages and I think that there hasn't been enough of a societal discussion about whether that's a good idea whether it makes sense to finance education with student loans. We have much more to talk about. And I want to take a call because lots of folks want to get in on the conversation. And we're at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Gavin Go ahead please you're on the callee Crossley Show. Hi Kelly. Great show and thank you so much. Get on because it's important to talk about the issues Marcus just banged the debacle we just came out of from 2008 with with mortgages I think lends itself as a great example to what potentially down the road here for student loans that I don't I don't see how the

calculators are going to do good work and don't really understand the ramifications of the amount of money that they're getting as their oyster of age and as they look ahead they can't really relate to the conversation or Stickley. So as a parent who's got to move on. My wife's been on my oldest son has been along and now I have a younger son who wants to go to school. It's almost a no win situation where a conversation can really go very far. Mark you have an online site for student information what do you say to Gavin. Well one of the things that concerns me is that as the graduation increases more students are opting for 20 25 or even 30 year repayment terms. So they'll still be in the student in debt by the time they're children and long college when parents are up to their eyebrows and they're much less willing or able to help their children pay for their college expenses. So we may see a downward spiral in affordability as a result.

And do people understand that I mean. That's a pretty startling fact you just uttered. I don't think people know that. They don't necessarily realize it all too often the students on whatever piece of paper is put in front of them figuring that they'll figure out how to pay back the loans after they graduate. Well the time to pay attention is before you sign the promissory note I encourage students to never borrow more than their expected starting salary. If you borrow your expected starting salary for your entire education you'll struggle a little bit but you should be able to afford to repay that debt. Ideally should be borrowing at no more than half of your expected starting salary and $5000 a year is potentially reasonable given what the starting salaries have grown to be but. I've seen students borrowing 45 50 60 or so miles a day. It's just too much for the value of the education.

We are up against a break. Gavin but I'm going to ask you to hold on because I think Zach would like to definitely weigh in on this I mean he's managing to get out of UMass Amherst with no debt. So what Mark the startling fact that Mark has just put out here is one that we need to offer some help for people who find themselves in the same situation so hang on Gavin hang on other collars were at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 8 9 7 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 we're talking about student loan debt the first time ever Americans are carrying higher balances on their loans than on their credit cards. Listeners call us and let us know your experiences did college land you in debt have the loans changed your life and was a degree worth it. 8 7 7 3 0 one eighty nine seventy eight 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. You can send us a tweet or write to our Facebook page. We'll be back after this break stay with us. Support for WGBH comes from you. And from Tower Hill Botanic Garden in

Boylston. The world class garden that's always in season. Celebrating Arbor Day weekend and the national Primrose show April 29 through May 1st. Tower Hill beach. Dot org. And from Fuller craft museum. New England's home for contemporary craft. Presenting furniture divas recent work by a dozen women studio furniture artists. On view now. Information at Fuller craft dot org and from the film forgiveness a time to love and a time to hate. Explore the concept and practice of forgiveness through a compelling range of stories from personal betrayal to global reconciliation. That's tonight at 9:00 on WGBH to. Ban Ravitch is a former assistant secretary of education who once supported No Child Left Behind and charter schools on the next fresh air she explains why she changed her mind. And education expert Andrew Rotherham explains why he supports strategies that will redesign American public education including charter schools and accountability. Joining us this afternoon at two on eighty nine point seven

WGBH. That is officially the program scoring some great deals on all inclusive getaways including a. Fair. Point. Good afternoon I'm Cally Crossley This is the Calla Crossley Show this hour we're talking about student loan debt. With so many students about to graduate we're looking at how to avoid the

high cost of education. I'm joined by Lauren Asher president of the Institute for College Access and Success. Mark Kantrowitz publisher of the financial website fin aid dot org. And Zac Bissonnette a senior at UMass Amherst and author of Debt-Free you how I paid for an outstanding college education without loans scholarships are mooching off my parents listeners who want to hear from you. 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 seventy guidance counselors what are you telling students about the cost of college. And do you wish you had seriously factored in the consequences of student loan debt before you made your college decision and now are you now in over your head 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Now before the break Mark weighed in with caller Gavin about his particular situation he's got loans as both his sons have loans in them and the younger one is about to head off to college. And I wanted Zach to weigh

in. What do you say to Gavin. You know Gavin brought a really important point here which is that a lot of students are not sort of prepared to weigh the risks and they're not aware of what they're getting themselves into with these student loans. And he's absolutely right about that there was actually a pediatric neurologist who found that the frontal lobes in adolescent brains are not yet fully connected which determines things like risk aversion and the willingness to take risks and sort of judgment. This is why we don't let teenagers drink or rent cars but we do allow them to borrow you know $100000 to go to NYU for example. So I hear from parents all the time saying to me you know ultimately it's got to be the kid's decision about what he wants to do. I don't buy that. I think that when it comes to something as serious as student loan debt where you can literally ruin your life. Parents have to kind of put aside the whole Dr Spock thing and go a little bit more medieval and say I'm older than you. Your birth your frontal lobes aren't fully connected yet you can't go to NYU and borrow a hundred

thousand dollars. I'm not going to stand for that. You know you have to be take a really hard line on this issue. Lauren I want to speak to the long term impact of hearing this kind of debt. Absolutely I think it's important to put in context that on average student debt is about $24000 for a four year college degree and that about two thirds of four year college graduates have loans. So there are still some people who are getting through school without debt a second self is pointed out. But a lot of people are needing to borrow now. If you graduate with a lot of debt more than you can actually handle on a starting salary then it can have a lot of impact on decisions about whether to buy a house or start a family. How much of whether you're saving for your own retirement or your own kids education whether you feel like you can afford the risk of starting a new business. All things that have. Implication of not just graphic individual that often for our society and our economy. Mark Kantrowitz I know you have to leave us but I wanted before you left

if you had one final thought you wanted to offer on your way out. Oh I know what Zach did is one of the best ways of saving a college costs and that's to attend an in-state public college. Besides the in-state public colleges there are also about six dozen of the more elite colleges that have adopted no loans on antiquated policies where they replace the loans and the financial aid package with grants and these include. In Massachusetts MIT Harvard and a couple of other colleges you can find a list on my website at and a dot org slash no loans so you need to think about what the cost is and what are the trade off between going to a more expensive school in some of the students who graduate with $100000 and are going to very expensive institutions and not receiving all that much financial aid in the not unusual that as acht noted

NYU students graduate with more debt because they're in the middle of a very expensive area of New York where is the students might have been able to get a much less expensive college education by going to the funny system or the county system. And and graduate with a lot less debt as a result. Let me I know you're out the door but I just want to point out that one hundred fifty students here in Massachusetts went to the state house because they're concerned about the increase for in-state schools so if that is happening and we know that state houses across the country are on under budget constraints will it still continued. Will the schools continue to be the best deal for for all concern even with these increases there are still going to be the least expensive but in the low income students and roll at in-state public colleges much more so than other types of colleges. So when you're increasing the tuition

you're essentially taxing the poor. And there was a great report by the Advisory Committee on student financial assistance called the rising price of inequality where they show that sensitivity to increases in costs of public institutions shifted in Roman's by low and moderate income students from public four year colleges to public two year colleges and also to no post-secondary education at all. So increasing the costs. Keeping the grands quiet or even decreasing them as is occurring in several states that's going to cause one of two things either the students are going to graduate with thousands of dollars of additional debt or they're going to go to a two year school or even not to college at all or drop out if they're already in school and can't make me write these you know the one thing that Lauren Dunn didn't mention is there is a program called income based repayment for the bank doing well. Now she has a website. Our info dot org

I have on the phone they'd cite a section about income based repayment. It's a safety net. If you borrow only federal loans and your salary is sufficient to cover the. The cost of repaying the loans. Income based repayment pegs the monthly payment to a percentage of your discretionary income as opposed to the amount that you all any remaining amount is forgiven after 25 years of repayment. Soon the dropping to 20 years for new students starting in 2014. And it also meshes very well with public service loan forgiveness if you work as a public how as a public school teacher police fire for a nonprofit organization that 20 year or 25 year forgiveness gets accelerated to 10 years. So it's a really good option if you are thinking about going into a public service career. All right. Well Mark thank you very much for that information.

I know our listeners appreciate That's Mark Kantrowitz publisher of the financial website fin aid dot org and I know you have to go so thank you so much Lauren Asher and Zac Bissonnette and I will continue this conversation as well as our callers. Sarah in Belmont Go ahead please you're on the Kelly Crossley Show. There's no discussion off the different job and job prospects but different majors for example if somebody is majoring in English and versus somebody majoring in it they took an Engineering. It might be worthwhile to take out a large loan. If your child is studying something which they go to dinner with they will get a good job at the end of the pool use Sarah I'm going to let both my guests respond to that because I know they have strong feelings that that's not the case. Lauren Asher you want to weigh in please. The reason hello. Yes and the reason I think is because I personally experience because my daughter and her friends my daughter's that it is a good hearing and her mother's been English and another

maze of fine art and take on good job right. Well that's not always the case so long as you're president of the Institute for College Access and Success you want to respond to Sara. Sure you know it. It seems simple to draw these linear comparisons and absolutely people should think about what their potential salary would be when they're looking at their loans. But no one can predict exactly what they're going to be great at when they start college or what the job market's going to be when they finish. That's why it's so important that if you do borrow you borrow modestly and you always start with federal student loans which have as Mark mentioned these and. Important borrower protections like income based repayment and certain loan forgiveness programs deferments for unemployment and economic hardship things that help balance the risk of the investment that you're making. Colleges in general still the best investment you can make. But there's no guaranteed return in fact. Well that is a great example of someone who's figured out to get through school how to get through school without borrowing. In general people who go part time work more than 20 hours a week while they're in school

or go to a community college when they're qualified for a four year school are much less likely to finish a degree than those who go full time to school that they're more likely to be challenged in and that's what researchers found. Loans can really help with that. But you need to think about what those loans are going to mean and that as everyone's pointed out is one of the. Hard thing to do. Zach weigh in please. Yeah I mean the first thing you know my response to the question from the caller is that the first it's really important to point out here is that there was research that I talk about in my book that showed that many of these science majors engineering for example also in addition to having the highest starting salaries also have the highest attrition rates in terms of people dropping that major because these are really challenging majors. So I don't know the number but it's a relatively low percentage of people who enter a four year college majoring in the sciences and up gradually and with a degree in the sciences. So you don't want to borrow money based on an expectation of what's going to happen in the future if you're that great at predicting earnings you know you could play the stock market or something. I don't think that high

school students have any business borrowing you know tens of thousands of dollars based on their projection of the job market in four years. The other thing and in response to what Laura was saying is that you know I have a little bit of a problem with the notion that I mean first of all there was one study that found that students who transferred from community colleges to four year colleges actually graduate at the same rate as students who started four year colleges. Another study showing that students who work more than 40 hours a week on average graduate with the same GPA to students who don't work at all. And when you start to look about you know what's the graduation rate. If I go to this college versus going to another college it's a little bit like saying you know I think I'll move to Colorado to try to lose weight because that's one of the thinnest states in America. What's going to determine your success is what you do and don't drop out of college people should drop out of college but the idea that you should somehow you know borrow forty or fifty thousand dollars you know or even less whatever to make yourself statistically less likely to make a decision to drop out of college. You know

that's not a compelling argument for me. All right Monica from Franklin Go ahead please you're on the Calla Crossley Show. Well first thing I'll say this is just a wonderful comfort to be hearing you know on the on so I do appreciate that. The second point I wanted to make was just to say that I feel like I'm a person who benefited very well from her taking loans for a college education that was more years ago than I care to admit to. But it enabled me to go to a good college would enable me to go through medical school and those are advantages and I would not have had if I didn't have those opportunities. So I wanted to say at least one positive story. That being said both my husband and I are employed we certainly have good unfortunately we now have two children in college and even. Trying to have. Thanks for that and have the feeling that it's very difficult and we've been created by our children both go to school that day trying to find schools that challenge them but were

actually at an affordable more affordable rate. But for people like that there really are very there are very few other options for support and I think most frustrating is when you do your taxes at the end of the year. We don't get any benefit from making that investment in terms of any kind of tax credits because of our income. Yeah yeah. This is why Zach says on the front end Think carefully about where you're going right. Absolutely. Go ahead. ZACH Yeah I mean look and I'm totally sympathetic to the idea that there's lots of people for whom borrowing lots of money to go to college and ends up working out you know most risky behaviors don't result in disaster most of the time. It's the question is whether it's worth the risk and you know she mentioned going to medical medical school and I think that's really cool and I want to say that really important is that one of the top reasons that people don't pursue grad school is that they have too much accumulated debt from their undergrad. So things I'm always telling people is if

your goal is to go to medical school your priority for your undergrad should be to do it debt free. I interviewed someone a year ago for a story who had started at Columbus State College which is a two year college in Ohio and then transferred to Ohio State and then went to Yale Medical School and was able to do the whole thing debt for it. Well there you go. Thank you very much for the call Monica. All right thank you for the topic. Sharon from from Him Go ahead please you're on the Kelly Crossley Show. I really appreciate the topic. I'm just curious I have a son about to go to school on which he had been amenable. To that. But because you don't have to. Change of the wherewithal to do lions but when I think about my undergrad it was there was the key thing is guaranteed student loan you would go to a tree bank if their bank was in the left and I own that so I went to school. My parents didn't have the wherewithal. Now I'm wondering what why this shift Why is it so hard now for kids to get paid.

Lauren Asher Can you answer that. Absolutely in fact federal student loans are quite easy to get maybe back with a too easy but in fact they don't have any credit requirement you have to fill out the FAFSA the Free Application for Federal Student Aid which you can easily find online and has gotten much easier in recent years. And in fact students are eligible for up to a total of thirty one thousand dollars. If they're younger undergraduates under age 24 by the time they graduate from with a B.A. or if they're older up to fifty seven thousand five hundred dollars that is actually a tremendous amount of student loan availability within the federal loan program. Also there are now Parent PLUS loans which allow parents to borrow up to the full cost of attendance for their younger undergraduate students. These loans come with a lot more consumer protection. And other types of debt and certainly you want to be cautious about borrowing whatever kind of borrowing you do. But if borrowing is what's going to allow your child to get to and through a school where they're likely to complete a degree and be well prepared to enter the workforce

that's where you should start. Thanks very much. Thanks very much for the call. Zach I want to give you an opportunity because we you know we're kind of it's kind of a gloomy conversation here like some tips that people can use to be you with if you will and to be able to graduate debt free. What do you what your are your top tips for high school students and families who drowned you know. Well one of the biggest and most overarching tips I think is that when you're going through this college selection process there's a lot of peer pressure around it and you're getting a lot of information from a lot of sources. And most of that information you're getting is garbage. So what families need to do the first thing is to be really skeptical and don't believe what anyone tells you you know I heard from someone the other day who is saying you know my uncle told me that if I go to Florida you know that I'll get a really good education there versus somewhere else and it'll be worth it. And you don't want to borrow fifty thousand or hundred thousand dollars based on the advice of they said and I heard the two dumbest financial advisors in America. So the first thing is to be really

skeptical The second thing and Mark said it is that for most people unless you get into the most selective colleges in America. I wasn't that smart so I go to State College for most people the most affordable option for education is going to go to be going to an in-state public college. Third is you know you hear a lot of stuff but this don't write off community colleges. You can start you know you're living at home. It costs very little you can do that without loans for two years and then you can transfer and I have a lot of data that I talk about in the book showing that your kid's not going to suffer for starting a community college. That we can in this segment without just answer the question how. How did you get to the point where you were just so determined to come out on the end on the other side with a good education and no debt. I mean you know it was it was when I when I when I went when I was growing up watching my parents struggle with money and deciding that I never wanted to be like that and so you know starting you know when I was in like sixth grade I was always selling stuff on e-bay. And then I was in high school as were you know a candy store in a grocery store in a theater and I'm still selling stuff on e-bay. And you know that I started writing about money for a

while and you know I was able to earn enough money you know mainly from working in high school to pay for college and you know by the way the other thing that really needs to be said here is that tuition fees and room and board at the average four year public college in America is fifteen thousand five hundred dollars a year. Last year the average family got a 25. You got 25 under the tax rate for that brought down to $13000 a year $13000 a year it's like two hundred fifty dollars a week. It's not an insurmountable amount of money to cash flow if you're willing to work and cut costs and do it that way. Yeah taking out a bunch of debt easier it's worth it to do it the hard way. Particularly now we're talking about the average student debt is eighty thousand dollars that's kind of mind boggling to think of that. And I should point out that you cannot declare bankruptcy on this kind of loan on these loans I mean you know this is this is it if you get it you're stuck with it until you know it's financial herpes. Yeah. So Zach I assume you have a job when you graduate.

I'm working on my second book and have a lot of stuff lined up. All right well there you have it. This has been an illuminating conversation I know for a lot of people in our callers and I want to thank all of my guests we've been talking about student loan debt and the high cost of education. I've been joined by Lauren Asher president of the Institute for College Access and Success. Mark Kantrowitz publisher of the financial website fin aid dot org. And Zac Bissonnette a senior at UMass Amherst and author of Debt-Free you how I paid for an outstanding college education without loans. Scholarships are mooching off my parents. Zach I assume your parents are in Hawaii now just vacationing leading up to your graduation. Right. Anyway thank you so much. Up next it's another edition of pop culture with Ask Dog Lady Monica Collins. She's taking your calls if you need dog advice. She's only here for a limited time. 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Back after this break. Stay with us.

Support for WGBH comes from you and from Boston Private Bank and Trust Company Boston private bank provides private and commercial banking and investment management and trust services to individuals and businesses. You can learn more by visiting Boston private bank dot com and from Somerset Chrysler Jeep Dodge celebrating jeeps 70th anniversary with a wide selection of anniversary edition vehicles Jeep providing drivers with seventy years of freedom. Somerset Chrysler Jeep Dodge Route 195 in Somerset. And from the Hanover theater for the Performing Arts in Worcester presenting three time Grammy Award winning artist and songwriter Hall of Fame inductee Kris Kristofferson on May 4th at 7:30. You can visit the Hanover theatre dot com for tickets. Next time on the world torture at Guantanamo. A medical expert working on behalf of detainees says the evidence is there fractures in her back problem. He says military doctors should have reported the abuse of inmates. I think it's

impossible not to recognize here. We were called to investigate the next time on the world. Coming up at 3:00 here on eighty nine point seven WGBH. From PR eyes of the world. On Tuesday night May 10th at 6 o'clock at the WGBH studios I'm going to be hosting an evening devoted to folk singer and educated priest. Saw. In honor of Asian Pacific American Heritage Month will be screening a song for ourselves. It's a documentary on a GM is like bye to the Camorra with an expert panel discussion to follow. Admission is free but you do need to get details of WGBH dot org slash heritage. Roy O'Donovan every Saturday at three for a session. Well just like that on a Celtic sojourn here on eighty nine point seven. WGBH.

The locker. Room. I'm Cally cross-link This is the Calla Crossley Show. It's time for another edition of pop culture. Joining me to talk about dogs and how one visit to the vet can escalate to multiple visits and dollars spent is film Fido maven Queen canine princes of poaches Dorion of dogs our royal hound Highness Monica Collins hi Kim. Hi. She writes the syndicated column Ask dog lady and she's taking your calls 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 write it down or put it on your phone. 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. You can send us a tweet or write to our Facebook page. Short period of time with Monica so call often and early if you have questions about your dog. But I want to start out this way because I'm always interested when there's a

breaking news about. Yeah and the New York Times had this huge piece about pet massage not just like petting your dog. Starting this I think every week they have an A because today there was another good week. Yeah. Talk about another time I guess pet massage was last week they wrote a big thing about it. And what's that you know you go get trained to learn how to massage your pet. Yes. OK so I don't. My dogs love that far. OK. I mean just petting the guy and rubbing his belly is enough for me. And in fact a couple people were quoted in this article saying that like OK you know I just pet the dog I really you know and some dogs have bad joints their joints are wobbly or an owner could can tell that you know they're in a little bit of pain. They can massage those to the knees and the eyes they can do that and there be help but that's like humans too. Right exactly right exactly. So I don't see any big whoop about this but if someone wants to go

into a big big big enough of a could that be me. If someone wants to certainly there's no harm in it. Yeah OK all right only good for and hate. Sounds like the dogs are loving it. Absolutely. All righty well you got some interesting letters here and I wanted to begin with one. My boyfriend their dog lady my boyfriend has a 12 year old black cocker spaniel frisky. He is a grumpy one. The dog that he always falls sick and refuses to eat at least two days a week. Wow. We are worried because we have been changing his food now and then but his condition did not improve. At times he won't even eat his favorite treats. Need your advice on what to do. Well here's the thing about dogs. They can go for a day without food. They can even go for two days without food. That this is what a dog keeper should not do is hover. Oh come on you know try this try that try that I'm changing the food 5 times. You can't

do that. I would just let the dog be and what is always said the great wisdom is they will eventually eat they will get hungry they will eat. So not making Simba the dog not making a big statement just not hungry and just not hungry at the time now if this goes on for a week. That's a problem that's a problem. You should make an appointment with the vet. OK very good. All right well we have a caller Rick on the road you're going to Cali Crossley Show. Go ahead please. Oh I didn't. Have a tell all I have a question. Aren't I just on the war I'm on and by I question might one of my first question is I am August alcohol on internet bound as it is now. First question I just switched with a very because I heard I heard a commercial about the dog. A lot of adoptable

supposedly Greyman not me. Yeah all dogs are a carnivore wife. I looked up online to get a little bit of researching and some some of the fights or you know same with the commercial side. You want art that need to be the first ingredient. Right exactly. Or dog food and I have a mostly need to know what it looks like she's enjoying its women right. Here's what I got or that's the one I got or the bits that look like the meat cheese eating up and she definitely enjoys a lot better than her old dog. But the bits I believe are supposed to be mostly right. Yeah she seems to be avoiding childe it if it's the last thing in the bowl but he's around you. I'm wondering if there's a way to get her to forget just did I guess what sir. There is no actual warrant. Oh I should get that way I might just stop at the buffet OK I can eyeball you know the whole way through. All right Rick picky eater and Rick should observe the rule that I

just spoke of which is don't hover. That he switched the food. He is doing a very good thing that when you switch your food if you want a higher quality dog food for your dog you should always check that a meat ingredient is the first ingredient on the can on the bag of kibble. But if your dog is not eating or eating a round what you think is the rice that's fine. You know for a while it's two days getting the protein that's the important part. You should see my dog when I when he has a squeaky stomach as I call him call it and I give him Lamb I give him rice and I give him chicken boiled chicken with rice you know a bland diet is good when they are not feeling well so I do give him the bland diet of boiled chicken and rice brown rice and he should see him get that brown rice out of the bowl.

Oh my it is so funny you know. Every bit of chicken is gone. I even shred the chicken so it mixes in with the brown rice. He still can get that brown rice out of the bowl OK. And it's amazing how they do all this so I think that makes dog right now is reacting to the new food loving the new protein by kind of going. Not so much. OK. Riggers that sounds right to you. It's good for you. You got it now. I just got a second question. All right go ahead. Rick let me give the number out for our callers. 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 I'm in the studio with Ask Dog Lady Monica Collins. She's taking your calls on all things dog. Go ahead then Rick. All right my second question is if she's a Chihuahua or so she's a small dog. Yeah I was told by the lady when I originally thought or if I intended to ever reach her that I wanted to do it with the first couple of years she's coming up on this or I'm not really in the best situation to

really have the rhetoric. Please get her fixed. Well once you know that clearly what it is I mean I just want one. Me forever before I get a farewell why and are you are you prepared to set up a whole well-paying pin and do all this. It takes a lot to have a puppy in your home. I would get her fixed. I would indeed you're not going to make any money off of her. She's going to be unhappy I don't I don't want to breed or to make money I just I think I've got a couple of people that love this dog and that they would take a puppy from her and I'm just going to give them give them away I am not really. I'm not looking for adventure in money I just want her to have a copy so I can keep I can keep her whining going because she's a very good dog and you know I love her to death and if I actually you know unfortunately she's going to be like George Carlin said a little tragedy. Understand I understand and I thought the same thing about my dog when I brought him to be neutered

and it is the responsible thing though in this society to have your dog fixed because you never know where the little chihuahua might meet a Great Dane. And there would be a lot of unwanted puppies. I think that's the final word from Dog Lady Rick. Take care and thanks for the call. Also healthier when they're spayed and neutered. John in the car you're on the Cali Crossley Show With ask Dog Lady Monica Collins Go ahead please. Hi John. How you doing today. Fine. I had one quick question. I try to pick the homeopathic route when it comes to my dog and I was wondering if you had your suggestion. First of all that's real this year. That is a good question and that is something that I think about all the time. I wish there were holistic remedies I have tried holistic tech remedies they have not worked. Yeah I've tried a couple route myself but I have still pull it off when we do.

Yeah I know and I was too i tried i tried i tried they say garlic feeding your dog garlic will repel the ones that don't. And it's mostly fleas. There's a spray on like common meal spray and other sprays that are organic sprays you can put on your dog to stop the ticks but I'll tell you if you find it you're going to be a millionaire or billionaire. But right now I'm afraid that it's the frontline it's the hard hard chemicals you've got to put on your dog to kill those ticks. And there are so you got to get it out through the daily brushing when we go out for a walk. There you go daily brushing is very good. All right thank you very much for the call 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Billy from Plymouth. Go ahead please you're with Ask Dog Lady Monica Collins. I have a black lab. On occasion when I go to see him

you know. Nose on the floor. Yeah and sometimes you get down thinking like I don't know is that making you maybe if you're not hungry you know it's weird I mean you look like you're very young and I think you know. Does he eat after he rubs the nose one sometimes but a lot of times don't just walk away. Oh really he'll rub his nose and then walk away. Yeah it's weird that I mean I would it's not weird it's dog. I'm not going to call it weird I'm going to call a dog. We who knows it's a it's an eating ritual. It's if the dog eats after rubbing his nose. First of all you should check the nose to make sure he doesn't have a tick or something honest knows that. Because he could be trying to get it all trying to get something off his nose before he eats. If you have any questions of all at all you pushy go to your vet and Cal you can repeat the.

Yes he is not a vet nor does she play one on the radio. So I can't give you a medical reason for this but your vet could if you if you seek that. Also as I say to check around the nose for a tick or ticks because dogs get ticks this time of year by smelling the ticks attached to their nose. Otherwise this could just be a phase. The reading I noticed before I ate fish. I thank you for the call. Thanks to you April from Barrington Rhode Island Go ahead please you're on with Ask dog lady on the Kelly Crossley Show. Hi April. I actually wanted to make a comment about the organic bug repellent. Oh please. I actually knew the name. I don't know if you've ever heard of. You know they treat their relatives and it's all natural and I absolutely hate the stuff. I went hiking.

Last summer and I used the name bug repellant on myself and I was bound but I can't spell it and am no Niinimaa. Ok ok I actually use it on myself and I don't get a single mosquito bite and I used to get swarmed by them and I think Monday April April we're not talking about mosquitoes here we're talking about chicks ticks so this is the same thing at all but these are highly toxic to them and they can sense it. And I use it on my dog and he hasn't gotten any check any antifreeze for about three years it used to have them all the time. Wow. So it's very very useful and I think that's very effective. April you thank you so much for the turnout there. Yeah thanks a problem dog ladies good never going to try this April still on The View. Yeah bro tell me what's in the name of it's for a tree a term it's a tree is it is it has its eternal goal from the tree. OK and they just

take the oil out of the tree and they you can you you can find it at all natural stores and you actually get it online I've done OK so you know if you did go searching for a name and you could find out where you could buy it online. Yeah and you might be able to find. It's a thick name. I think they have him on like not coming. Well I think I think I have gotten there but it is very very active. Thank you thank you very much both thanks for the call. And this is the tick season which is why you're trying to be so careful with callers about making certain that they get their rights absolutely ticks. I mean I could tell you a I'll tell you one gross little gross story which is the ticks literally fall off your dog. If you put on the chemical stuff and because they it goes into the skin and it prevents the take a specimen from really attaching. And but

I find. Room in the house. Yeah because because of this and you just go whew there's a lot a lot of wildlife out there right now. And that's what a dog's going to do is roam around. Right. Exactly right. OK. Well I wish we could squeeze in yet another caller but I'm I'm not sure that we can dog lady you just have to take them the next go round. Kelly I just want to stress the importance of everyone having a veterinarian for their dog to discuss these matters of ticks and and you know like a seasonal tune up for you know the seasonal tune up exactly. As it is for the rest of us you know if that rain comes OK. All right well been another exciting edition of pop culture. Monica Collins writes the syndicated column Ask dog lady. You can go to ask dog lady dot com to ask a question or make a comment or visit the ask dog lady Facebook fan page. Thank you so much Monica. THANK YOU can you can

keep on top of the Calla Crossley Show at WGBH dot org slash Calla Crossley follow us on Twitter or become a fan of the callee cross the show on Facebook today show was interviewed by Alan Mathis produced by Chelsea Merz will Rose live and Abbey Ruzicka where production of WGBH radio Bostons NPR station for news and culture.