Harvard Book Store; WGBH Forum Network; Amy Chua: Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother

This evening on behalf of Harvard bookstore and I am so excited to welcome Amy to discuss her book Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother now known internationally as the Tiger Mom and each of us sit squarely in the center of a massive media firestorm. The book is a descriptive not prescriptive look into chose a very particular parenting style has generated a wide ranging debate with topics including home schooling Eastern and Western relations. Corporal punishment and the readmission of the Mommy Wars. Local novelist guess Ginn calls him a quote pug nation and blunt with an eye on erring nose for the absurd. Jen goes on to say quote The cultural divide so brilliantly captures is when we stand to witness more and more in our globalized age. The issues and Herenton Battle Hymn are as important as they are entertaining and Matua graduated from Harvard College and Harvard Law School and is currently the John M. Duff professor of law at Yale Law School. Her first book world on fire how exploring free market democracy breeds ethnic hatred and global instability was selected by the economist in the Guardian as one of the best books of 2003. It was also a New York

Times and Harvard bookstore bestseller her second book Dave Empire how hyper powers rise to global dominance and why they fall was a critically acclaimed foreign affairs bestseller. I'm so thrilled to welcome Professor Chu up back to Cambridge tonight. Ladies and gentlemen with thanks for your patience. Please join me in welcoming me to you. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU SO MUCH. And thank you all for coming. It's been a pretty surreal month since a book came out and it's really great to see some familiar faces of former students in the crowd and some friendly faces seemingly friendly faces. So instead of giving a talk I'm guessing that people have a lot of questions. So I thought that I would start by saying something very briefly about how I came to write the book and then because I I'm guessing I'm fearing that many of you may only have read The Wall Street Journal excerpt

and again for the one millionth time. No I did not write or even know of the headline and I do not believe that Chinese parenting is superior. I think that there are many ways of being a good parent but because I'm worried that many of you or most of you may only have read the excerpt which is from the very opening of my book I thought I would read a few pages from towards the middle of the book and then some pages from near the end of the book just to give you more of a sense for what the book is really about and then I'll just take questions. So this book was actually far from being triumphalist it was actually born in a moment of genuine crisis. When my younger daughter Lulu rebelled at the age of 13. By way of background my myself and my three younger sisters we were raised by extremely strict but extremely loving Chinese immigrant parents they actually emigrated to Boston in 1960 to come as graduate students and

you know the whole American dream story they were so poor their first two winters in Boston and it's really cold tonight. They couldn't afford heat their first two winters so they wore blankets around to keep warm. As parents they my mom and dad were really really strict very very tough with my three sisters and me. But it worked. I to this day I adore my parents I feel I owe them everything. And I thought always that this is the biggest thing we voluntarily love to vacation with them every chance we get so I think that's saying a lot. But because I guess it worked with me. That's why even though my husband is not Chinese. He's a Jewish American. We decided to raise our two daughters the same way or try to raise my two daughters Sophia and Lulu the same way that my parents raised me and with my oldest daughter Sophia. Things went you know pretty smoothly. She likes to point out that she let them go smoothly. But then my second daughter Lulu came along and she's a real fireball she and I have

very similar personalities hot tempers. I feel like she kind of came out kicking and screaming and saying no but I with Lulu I basically got my come up and we locked horns from day one. And at 13 she rebelled. So the book is basically a story of our family's journey. You know in two cultures a foot in each culture and my own transformation as a mother it is not a parenting book. It's a memoir. It's supposed to be funny it's like a self-parody. And much of it is making fun of myself. So the actual writing the book I I literally wrote it in a moment of crisis. As I say after my younger daughter Lulu rebelled there was one part we had one terrible when we were having awful fights and you know when it rains it pours around the same time my youngest sister who was here actually in Boston got leukemia and had to

have a bone marrow transplant and everything was going wrong and I sort of felt like the family was falling apart I was thinking have I done everything wrong. And then after one awful blow up and I'm going to read that scene the next morning a very public awful fight that I had with Lulu. I thought of the next morning and even though I usually have writer's block the two other books took me eight and five years to write. I would just write like one paragraph a day I considered good. But in this case I wrote the whole the words just poured out. I wrote the whole the first two thirds of the book in just two months. The last third forever I just couldn't get the anybody would still work in progress. But I showed every page to my daughters and my husband and it was basically like family therapy. So you know I think it was a good process. So let me now just read a few pages from the book really I'm keeping this very short to leave time for more questions. I think just total of 10 pages double spaced so

the opening of the book I mean the book has a real arc. So at the opening of the book it's really me you know looking back 18 years ago to kind of a cocky over confident parent I was in this a little bit of a caricature but that's the tone the voice that you you get you got in the in the Wall Street Journal excerpt stubbornly obtuse. And if it's funny the way the book has been received because if you were to ask me you can ask my daughters you know what kind of books I had in mind when I wrote this when I wrote this my models my idols were you know something more like gave itsa Doris's books. Dave Eggers you know Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Genius Pale Fire I mean I love these books where the the narrator is a clearly flawed character and then there are the protagonists. So the first thing I'm going to read from you is near the

beginning of the book. This is a music scene it's only just half a page very short. And this is a scene with my daughter Lulu who is about seven of the time she was playing just trying to play the violin. And we had a wonderful violin teacher to Mr. Schu guard who just saw her musicality and really brought out all all the best in her. We were doing the Suzuki method so I just read one thing that the piano one violin have in common with each other but also with many sports is that you can't play extraordinarily well unless you're relaxed just as you can't have a killer tennis serve or throw a baseball really far unless you keep your arm loose you can't produce a malicious tone on the violin if you squeeze the bow too tightly or mash down on the strings mashing is for is what makes the horrible scratchy sound. And Mr. Shu Gar was a genius with Lulu. Imagine that you're a rag

doll. Mr. Shu Gart with Lulu floppy and relaxed and not a care in the world. You're so relaxed your arm feels heavy from its own weight let gravity do all the work. Good Lulu good. Relax I screamed at home Mr Schuh guard said rag doll. I always tried my best to reinforce Mr Schuh Garth's points but things were tough with Lulu because my very presence made her edgy and irritable. Once in the middle of a practice session Lulu burst Oh stop it mommy. Just stop it. Lou I replied I didn't say anything. I didn't say one word. Your brain is annoying me. Lulu said. I know what you're thinking I'm not thinking anything I said indignantly. Actually I've been thinking that Lou's right elbow was too high that our dynamics were all wrong or that she needed to shape or phrases better just turn off your brain Lou ordered. I'm not going to play anymore unless you turn off your brain.

Lou was always trying to provoke me getting into an argument was a way of not practicing that time. I didn't bite. OK I said calmly. How do you want me to do that. Giving little control of the situation sometimes defused her temper. Lulu thought about it. Hold your nose for five seconds. A lucky break. I complied and the practicing resumed. That was one of our good days. Now I'm going to read from the middle of the book. This is I don't know maybe Lucifer my oldest daughter must be around maybe 15 my youngest daughter. I mean Lulu probably around 12. Our clashes are getting a little bit more serious I'm starting to have more internal doubts but I am still stubbornly holding my ground. So again just a very short passage not even a page. And this one this passage I have to say is provocative for an award. Here's a question I often get. But Amy let me ask you this. Who are

you doing all this pushing for your daughters. And then here always the cockhead the knowing tone or your self. I find this a very Western question to ask because in Chinese thinking the child is the extension of the self. But that doesn't mean it's not an important question. My answer I'm pretty sure is that everything I do is unequivocally 100 percent from my daughters. My main evidence is that so much of what I do with Sophia and Lulu is miserable exhausting and not remotely fun for me. It is not easy to make your kids work when they don't want to. To put it in grueling hours when your own youth is slipping away to convince your kids they can do something when they and maybe even you are fearful that they can't. Do you know how many years you've taken off my life. I'm constantly asking my girls. You're both lucky that I have enormous longevity as indicated by my thick Good luck earlobes that the Chinese think of it.

To be honest I sometimes wonder if the question Who are you really doing this for should be asked of Western parents too. Sometimes I wake up in the morning dreading what I have to do and thinking how easy it would be to say Sure Lulu. We can skip a day of violin practice. Unlike my western friends I can never say as much as it kills me. I just have to let my kids make their choices and follow their hearts. It's the hardest thing in the world but I'm doing my best to hold back. Then they get to have a glass of wine and go to a yoga class whereas I have to stay home and scream and have my kids hate me. And finally from the ending these are longer pages. This is towards the end of the book. This chapter is called Red Square. As chapter 31. And this is after my sister Katrine had just had a bone marrow transplant we had a very very rough year two days after lose baht mitzvah. We left for Russia. It was a vacation I dreamed of for a long time.

My parents had raved about St. Petersburg when I was a girl and Jed and I wanted to take the girls somewhere we never visited ourselves. We needed a vacation to train. My sister had just passed through the worst danger zone of acute graft versus host disease. We've basically gone 10 months without one day's break. Our first stop was in Moscow. Jed had found us a convenient hotel right in the center of the city. After a short rest we headed out for our first taste of Russia. I tried to be easy sorry I tried to be goofy and easy going. The mood my girls most like me and refraining as best I could from making my usual critical remarks about what they were wearing or how many times they said like. But there was something ill fated about that day. It took us more than an hour standing in two different lines to change money at a place that called itself a bank. And after that the museum we wanted to visit was closed. We decided to go to Red Square Lulu and Sophia

kept sniping at each other which irritated me. Actually what really irritated me was that they were all grown up teenagers my size is a fetus case 3 inches taller. Instead of cute little girls it goes so fast. Older friends had always said wistfully before you know it your children will be grown and gone and you'll be old even though you feel just like the same person you were when you were young. I had never believed my friends when they said that because it seemed to me they were told by squeezing out so much from every moment of every day. Perhaps I imagined that I was buying myself more time as a purely mathematical fact. People who sleep less live more. That's Lenin's tomb behind the long white wall. Judd told the girls pointing his body is then bald and on display. We can go see it tomorrow. Jed then gave the girls a short tutorial on Russian history and Cold War politics. After roaming around for a bit

we sat down at an outdoor cafe. It was attached to the famous gum shopping mall which is housed in a palatial arcade lined 19th century building that takes up almost the entire east side of Red Square directly across from the fortress like Kremlin. We decided to get gleanings and caviar. A fun way to start off our first evening in Moscow judge Nye thought. But when the caviar arrived 30 US dollars for a tiny receptacle. Lulu said EU gross and wouldn't try it. Sofia I snapped. My oldest daughter don't take so much leave some for the rest of us. I then turned to my other daughter Lulu. You sound like an uncultured savage them. Try the caviar you can put a lot of sour cream on it. That's even worse the booze said. And she made a shuddering gesture. And don't call me a savage. Don't wreck the vacation for everyone Lulu. You're the one wrecking it. I

pushed the caviar toward Lulu. I ordered her to try one egg one single egg Why. Lulu asked defiantly Why do you care so much. You can't force me to eat something. I felt my temper rising. Could I not get Lulu to do even one tiny thing. You're behaving like a juvenile delinquent. Try one egg now I said. I don't want to said Lulu. Do it now Lulu. No Amy. My husband Jed began diplomatically. Everyone's tired why don't we just. I broke in. Do you know how sad and ashamed my parents would be if they saw this Lulu you publicly disobeying me with that look on your face. You're only hurting yourself. We're in Russia and you refused to try caviar. You're like a barbarian. And in case you think you're a big rabble you are completely ordinary. There is

nothing more typical more predictable more common and low than an American teenager who won't try things you're boring Loulou boring. Shut up said Lulu angrily. Don't you dare say shut up to me I'm your mother. I hissed this but still a few guests glanced around. Then I said knowing Lou well stopped act trying to act tough to impress Sophia. I hate you. I hate you. This from Lulu was not in a hiss. It was an all out shout at the top of her lungs. Now the entire cafe was staring at us. You don't love me Lulu spat out. You think you do but you don't. You just make me feel bad about myself every second. You've wrecked my life. I can't stand to be around you. Is that what you want. A lump rose in my throat. Lou saw it but she went on. You're a terrible mother you're selfish. You don't care about anyone but yourself. What you can't believe how ungrateful I am after

all you've done for me. Everything you say you do for me is actually for yourself. She's just like me. I thought compulsively cruel. You are a terrible daughter I said aloud. I know I'm not what you want. I'm not Chinese. I don't want to be Chinese. Why can't you get that through your head. I hate the violin. I hate my life. I hate you and I hate this family. I'm going to take this class and smash it do it. I dared it. Lulu grabbed a glass from the table and threw it on the ground water and shards went flying and some guests gasped. I felt all eyes upon us a grotesque spectacle. I had made a career out of spurning the kind of Western parents who can't control their kids. Now I had the most disrespectful rude violent out of control kid of all. Lou was trembling with rage and there were tears in her eyes. I'll smash more if you don't leave me alone

she cried. I got up and ran. I ran as fast as I could not knowing where I was going. A crazy 46 year old woman sprinting in sandals and crying I ran past Lenin's mosly M and passed some guards with guns who I thought might shoot me. Then I stopped. I had come to the end of Red Square. There was nowhere to go next to an army just two pages from the next chapter which is called the symbol and I'm almost on it. The families often have symbols a lake in the country. Grandpa's metal the Sabbath dinner in our household the violin had become a symbol for me. It symbolized excellence refinement and depth. The opposite of shopping malls mega-sized Coke's teenage clothes and crass consumerism. Unlike listening to an iPod playing the violin is difficult and requires concentration Chrisitian and

interpretation. Even physically everything about the violin the burnished wood the carved scroll the horsehair the delicate bridge the sounding point is subtle exquisite and precarious. To me the violin symbolized a respect for hierarchy standards and expertise for those who know better and can teach. For those who play better and can inspire and for parents. It also symbolized history. The Chinese never achieved the heights of western classical music. There is no Chinese equivalent of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony but high traditional music is deeply intertwined with Chinese civilization. The seven strange chin often associated with Confucius has been around for at least twenty five hundred years. It was immortalized by the great Tang poets revered as the instrument of the sages. Most of all the violin symbolized control over generational

decline over birth order over one's destiny over one's children. Why should the grandchildren of immigrants only be able to play the guitar drums. Why should Second children so predictably be less rule abiding less successful in school and more social than eldest siblings. In short the violin symbolized the success of the Chinese parenting model for Lulu. It embodied oppression and as I walk slowly back across Red Square I realize that the violin had begun to symbolize oppression for me too. Just picturing Lulu's violin case sitting at home by the front door at the last minute we decided to leave a behind. The first time ever made me think of the years the hours and hours and years and years of Labor fighting aggravation myth and misery that we'd endured for what. I also realized that I was dreading with all my heart

what lay ahead. It occurred to me that this must be how Western parents think and why they so often let their kids give up difficult musical instruments. Why torture yourself and your child. What's the point. If your child doesn't like something hates it. What good is that forcing her to do it. I knew as a Chinese mother I could never given to that way of thinking. I rejoined my family at the gum cafe. The waiters and other guests averted their eyes. Lou I said you when it's over we're giving up the violin. And now two final pages from this this chapter is called going west. I wasn't bluffing. I'd always engaged in brinkmanship with Lulu but this time I was serious. I'm still not exactly sure why. Maybe I finally allowed myself to admire Lulu's immovable strength for what it was. Even if I bitterly disagreed with her choices. Or

maybe it was my sister Katrine watching her struggle and seeing what became important to her in those desperate months shook things up for all of us. It could also have been my mother to me. She'll always be the quintessential Chinese mother growing up. Nothing was ever good enough for her. So you say you got first place but actually only tied for first right. Even after I became a professor and invited her to some of my public lectures My mother always offered painfully accurate criticisms while everyone else was telling me what a good job I'd done. And yet my own Chinese mother had been warning me for a long time that something wasn't working with Lulu. Every child is different she said. You have to adjust to me. Look what happened to your father she added ominously. So about my father I guess it's time to come clean with something. I've always told myself and everyone else that the ultimate proof of the superiority of Chinese parenting is

how the children end up feeling about their parents despite their parents brutal demands verbal abuse and disregard for their children's desires. Chinese kids end up adoring and respecting their parents and wanting to care for them in their old age. From the beginning Jed had always asked What about your dad. Amy I've never had a good answer. My father was the black sheep in his family. His mother disfavored him and treated him unfairly in his household. Comparisons among the children were common and my father the fourth of six was always on the short end of the stick. He wasn't interested in business like the rest of his family. He loved science and fast cars. At age 8 he built a radio from scratch compared to his siblings. My father was the family outlaw risk taking and rebellious to put it mildly. His mother didn't respect his choices value his individual ASM or worry about his

self-esteem. All those Western cliches the result was that my father hated his family found it suffocating and undermining. And as soon as he had a chance he moved away as far as he could. Never once looking back. What my father's story illustrates is something I suppose I never wanted to think about. One Chinese parenting succeeds. There's nothing like it. But it doesn't always succeed. For my own father it hadn't. He barely spoke to his mother and never thought about her except in anger. By the end of her life my father's family was almost dead to him. I couldn't lose Loulou nothing was more important so I'll stop there and just take questions. Q Thank you. The question was say a little bit more about the reason for writing the book I mean there was the therapeutic part but then the Wall Street Journal like so it was so different so you know why put my family out there in such a public way.

Yeah. You know I know it never occurred to me in a million years that this was going to be the reaction. You know this is it's a memoir. I mean seriously how upset can people get about a memoir. I remember my dad when I was writing it. My family thought No he's going to publish this my father said you should waste your time because you know you're not a famous person nobody's going to want to read a book about you. So I really had it. I didn't write that headline and I was very surprised that it kind of got it entered into the into the sort of global discussion that way and I would say that that is my one regret. I I love the book. OK. I think the book is much more complicated and I would say to this day. I've had a lot of I've heard a lot of nice things in addition to a lot of mean things. But I would say I don't think there is one review out there yet that has actually discussed the book in the way that I intended it. I didn't even attend it exactly as a memoir. I mean it for sure it's on a parenting book. But I again that's why I mention a block off. I thought it was funny. You know like I'm there

I loved. I've always loved books with unreliable narrators. It hollows of a nose confessions of xeno what just where there is the Narrows. Writers saying something you know again Dave Eggers book I think is a bit like this. And they're very self-critical they're self-deprecating but you have to read between the lines to really figure out what they think you know and I do wonder now if I had known that the book was going to be taken this way with so many people reading it I could have made myself a lot more likeable. I mean I could hardly make myself less likable I ought to care. The narrator dares people to not like you know I tell my daughters I love them all the time. I didn't I didn't I don't think I you know I just didn't put that in my daughter Sophia said to me Mommy. I mean they always knew better you know she said you know you put together only the most outrageous and extreme moments of our lives you know people are going to know how much fun we had how much we snuggle around how boring our lives are usually. And I said you know I'm not going to put a chapter we woke up had cereal went to bed. I want to read. You know so I I really had something in my head

that it was going to be an unusual book. You know I think there is much. Not to believe like right on the surface and this is what is out in the public these strict rules. In Chapter 3 I've disclosed that I disobeyed my own father right in chapter 3 it's like on page 10 he said to me you're going to stay at home and go to college. Live at home at Berkeley you know in the base are you with us. I forged a signature and I applied to one school that I'd heard people talking about I went to public high school Nelson California. I had heard of the school called Harvard. I applied to it I forged his signature and he was mad for one day and then when he figured out that it was not such a bad school he turned around is very proud he said to me when I was four you'll marry non-Chinese over my dead body. He said to me. I didn't ever tell him about any boyfriends because that's pretty severe Oh my oh my god. And now you know I married a very Chinese guy by doubting my husband or the best of friends

so then I reveal at the end that my father is a rebel. I think the book is written in an outlaw voice. So I think the book is in some ways not about Chinese versus Western It's certainly not about parenting it's as much my last saw is such a good you know I've wanted to say this for for a long time because it's I've been asking you know the questions I usually get are did you or did you not burn the stuffed animals. Not so. I'm just defending answering questions that are supposed to be jokes and. And but you know at the very last page of my book I'm going on again I do all these showdowns in my book between my daughters and me both of them always get the best lies they call my bluff My daughters are the biggest personalities. They are so funny. And you know I'm very proud of them. And I say I'm going on a rant again and I say like you know well what are the historical origins of the play date anyway. You know do you think our founding fathers had sleep overs. I think our founding fathers had

Chinese values and then this is actually happened. Sophia my oldest daughter said I had to tell you this mom but if our founding fathers had them then they're American values. And that is the way I mean that is the arc of the book right it's. My father came to this country saying this is the land of opportunity. It's it's not fair anywhere else. He hated the country came from. You know here's where if you work hard and don't make excuses then you can make it. So the idea that hard work and you know maybe some toughness but that these are not American values is just. So I mean the book is much more complicated than I intended to be so that's why I didn't expect it to be taken you know so much into the parenting. You know I didn't really didn't. Final thing I guess on the cover of my book it seems to make clear to me that it's not a parenting book it says this was supposed to be a book about how Chinese parents are better raising kids but instead it's about how I was humbled by a 13 year old. So I feel like it's on the cover you

know. Well first I should for the repeat the question for the for the people can't hear. I won't ever feel they but it was a very nice comment about how the book in fact is extremely different from the way that it was. It's coming out in the media. One point the questioner was actually from an Italian-American background. And just to reiterate your point because it's related to the first question I intended the book to be much much more universal. You know it's it's it is both universal in the sense of the any teacher you know forget. And so partly the immigrant thing. I mean I think immigrants in particular relate to this but even it's not even just that. I mean now that the book is out there that a lot of the nice things that are happening I'm getting e-mails of people who have finally read the book and they say look I'm I'm not an immigrant I'm not Asian I'm not even remotely ethnic At this point. But I am I. You know I I can see that you're just trying your best.

We come with this baggage I tried to do this because I was reacting against my parents I was doing this and so. So anyway thank you for your. You know I. Why did I keep hovering around my daughter when she was 7 doing the violin thing. I would say that that's one of the lessons I learned at the end of my book is to basically give both my daughters more freedom. And but I don't know if I agree with you about age 7. I think there's a right point at which you give them more choice and breathing room. And we could debate about what that period might be. So she the person does research in Chinese immigrant experiences and. And was asking me correctly identified that there are big differences between Chinese immigrant practices these are like my parents that come in their super strict and then second gen I don't sometimes call first generation second but people like me born in this country raised in the United States. And you are absolutely right and this is what I mean by the read the the theme of rebellion.

There's a chapter in my book called on generational decline and it's on my favorite ones. And I actually I just say this like I say there's this familiar pattern the immigrant generation comes in and by the way I think this applies to Nigerian immigrants and Caribbean immigrants and German image you know Jewish immigrants and the first generation they come in their heart hardly any money and they are just about survival and there's there are certain characteristics they save everything for the children's education they don't spend a lot of time drinking wine they don't have such fancy clothes. I have jokes like they invest in real estate you know I mean that just my mother you know you don't throw any leftovers. And but then my generation is usually because of the hard work of my parents generation were usually I would guess a lot of people in this room today. Go to real pretty good universities end up being professionals. You share a lot of the same values you even make more money than your parents but that's because they invested so much in you and.

This generation my generation typically is not a strict with their kids. And one of the lines of my book is the next generation my kids. That's the generation I lie awake at night worrying about because they grow up with so much more prevalent. They are all their friends have expensive clothes they have iPods also equipment and they can't carry heavy things you know and I don't the swimming pool when I was 15 and I had a paper route that I always like sell like a seven year old man you know. But I have heard all these stories and I didn't want them. I have a line that I didn't. Not on my watch. There's a lot in my book which is partly a joke but it's like I'm not going to follow this pattern you know. So I would say that I'm unusual I talk to my friends who are in my bracket demographic bracket and they do it much differently. But what's funny about the book is that I couldn't do it. This is a fun talk as these are not questions I've ever answered any I've been out on the road for six weeks but another sub theme of my book that I've

never had a chance to talk about. So I'm still always on the stuffed animals. Is is that I think it's interesting that I was able to do what my parents did because I'm not an immigrant I didn't have the same authenticity. I think there was something about my mom and dad like wearing such shabby clothes my dad same pair of shoes for eight years working around the clock. So if they said these things like A-minus is about great whatever you know whatever. It never occurred. Me to question them. Whereas my kids see me going to cocktail parties much you know and for some reason I they can ask why. And you know usually it's a good question you know why can I do this why can't I go to the mall. So it's really interesting. You know it's interesting. I mean you know I think about this all the time this is why it's important that my book is in a parenting book because my dad is my idol and my dad I think in some ways was very typical Asian like this whole list. No boyfriends no sleepovers engineer. That part is all the same but the part that's different is that he really was is this creative wacky guy. Right so while he was saying this being the strict paternal I mean

authoritarian On the one hand I could see the way he was acting my dad does like crazy stuff you don't always want to try all these things he was a big risk taker and a big rebel. And so I think I I would say I don't have a it would be interesting apparently to study this my own experience with my students. And I'm not talking about just Chinese students but like these students raised off an Asian South Asian or you know with very strict parents. Is that it is not at all clear is that more of them are taking it because I think like myself my parents were so strict I had to sneak around a lot and I think that breeds high emotional intelligence. I mean it you know you have to sort of negotiate on the one hand I grew up more slowly there are certain things I couldn't do why these work scales. But I was all you know because they were so so and I have to say I raise my kids a lot different you know socially. I mean I think I was much more encouraging of creative again my kids go up in a hybrid household by my husband. It's all about questioning authority question and I think that's another

flaw. I mean I think that's a good thing. I know just what you're saying. I you know I when I went to law school here I found myself to be just a poor law student I was in distress I really was almost in a crisis because I just want to write down everything the professor said. And I was not good at challenging authority. I was like What. Just like you know it but it didn't take me such a short it did take me such a long time. So you know I mean I don't know that it's that you can't kind of go out of it and if it's not worth it in the end because you also get a lot of great great skills and great things right. I just asked if anybody's going to make you a movie. So I've had like twice so many requests about reality TV shows. No why you know yes I know I have had actually yes many many interests in a movie and so far we've been saying no. So are you saying no the only thing I'm worried about legally is whether we can stop

anybody. But so far yeah. It goes back to the first question really not why I wrote the book but the question is with my husband husband being from such a different value system and background how did I feel myself you know growing and adjusting. It is true my husband grew up in the exact opposite context his parents themselves were raised in very strict orthodox Jewish family so they this is my husband's parents went the other way so they were the most permissive 960 as parents just explore your choices. No structure be happy and I will say to my my mother in law is a pivotal figure in this book and it's another thing that just bums me out with all these interviews it's like she is there all these supporting characters in my book and she's at a really important one because she she and I were great friends she was an art critic. And but and I used to admire her so much because she was just everything that I

wasn't you know she was sort of very appreciated colors and she was very sensuous and dark chocolate and she knew how to kind of enjoy life and you know not me you know. And but when we when I had my first child that's when we started having the clashes. And there are some very important chapters in here because it was actually central to have this other important player you know in our lives which is kind of dropped out of the public debate. I would say that my husband despite loving his parents enormously was actually more on board than people expect because he was the kind of person who wished that somebody had forced him for example to learn a musical instrument. You know doesn't read music and he was given the choice when he was 16 to play with her friends or learn instrument. You know obviously and then wish somebody had forced him to speak a second language you know. After we got married I got the tapes. Impossible to learn a 30 very difficult at least so and he so we were really a lot on board but I will say that our There were really

clashes but I think I'm so lucky that my husband brought balance to the household and it might go back to the previous question right because while I was doing the two are insisting on the two or three hours of violin every day my husband was making sure that. But you know we're going you know on the bike ride or we're going to the water park this weekend we're going scuba diving and and I have to admit all these things I hated. I saw that I hated but I'm a guy you know. So just when its comic you know I the waterparks especially remember my husband loves dangerous risky things you know. And so the water parks I remember that because my daughter Sophia was just about to perform. And then she had this great idea is going to take the kids to the water park where they had those huge slides that come down and all I could think about is she's going to just she's going to injure her fingers. So I asked her if she would wear these big ski mittens. She said no. She refused. So but I mean I guess this is what

you know the question is after the Wall Street Journal thing came out there was a lot of negative stuff that came in particular from the Asian-American community. I guess less so now but still some you know suggesting are you promoting stereotypes of the model minority and things like that. And this maybe bothers me the most you know I don't think I'm going to be able to persuade everybody but I'd like a 5 5 tier answer you know. Well first it's I think I because I'm a lawyer. I define my terms very clearly on page one. I say that I'm that I was talking to a white guy from South Dakota and you know after talking decided that his working class Irish father had definitely been a Chinese mother. And then in the next line I say and also by no means many many many Chinese people do not parent this way so in law we call this defining terms and. And I also say many Koreans and South Asians are Nigerians and had to make and you know. So that's one two. If you actually read the book it is the opposite of promoting

stereotypes of the stereotype is there here's a stare. There are stereotypes of the callous Asian mother who doesn't care about her kids and just drives and. And I am trying to humanize that right it's like we're all parents. I mean you do this and and also the if you could have read the arc of the book I mean in the end it's about giving up the violin. It's the choice that's more important I just worry that people you know another stereotype of Asians is that they don't that they're not they're robotic and don't have a sense of humor. I think it's unfair. Does that have a sense of humor. I really do. You know and this book is a satire it's funny it's it's got complexity. And my last point is I the reason I just I sort of feel like why my existence is a robot. You know I mean like I I don't play either the piano or the violin and I ended up not being good at math and science I'm a law professor so am I right.

Provocative books. You know it's a it's not it's not the typical stereotype and so the question is if I think it's so funny then why do so many people not you know and I and I think that's a really good question I've thought so hard about this because again I in my academic work I'm very careful you know and I I guess for me knowing myself it's just so obvious that some of these things are are so over the top you know like I'm I'm a law professor and I have lines in there you know drums lead to drugs and you're only you know I'm just this could you know just these crazy overall generation if they if a Chinese kid ever got a B which would never happen. I mean you know. It's just such a hit all the way through that and then what I'm trying to train my dogs with Chinese parenting. You know it's and the lines. But to go back to your question I first want to say that many many people it's not just an Asian thing think it's up many

many people did get the humor. Even just with the Wall Street Journal article lots of people wrote in this was so funny. I I think that one thing I didn't realize is that if you touch parenting and might again My daughter pointed this out. If you if you don't know me you know you don't don't have any picture. Then you just pick a few lines out and you sort of have this image in your head. I think it's possible in a very intelligent and sincere way to read it completely straight. I mean I have very very good friends of mine who have read it straight and who know me you know so it's not I guess the humor just isn't for everybody. But I think coupled with that headline Why Chinese Mothers are superior which definitely has no humor. You know then a lot of that was lost but that's the most I can I can think of. But I will say there are a couple blogs where people have taken almost like analytically how could this not be funny like they string all the lines together to show to try to prove. But that's what clinical. Yes.

Of the excerpt. OK the excerpt was I didn't write the excerpt but all the. And every word from the excerpt. Every word of the excerpt is from my book it's from the beginning of the book. And my I don't know who wrote it but the Wall Street Journal something but I cleared the eggs are apt but I never saw the headline and I I mean never saw it. I cleared the whole excerpt. I declare the whole exit and later you know I realize I didn't put anything in there about the rebellion or the change. And for me I have regrets about that. Well I don't think it's so biased it's just I mean to me it's it's from the opening of the book to me it goes back to the humor question. I thought it was very funny. I mean I myself find it very funny. There are completely self-incriminating moments in there which for which I've had to pay over and over. You know I mean I mean there was they took the they took the most provocative moments of the book. I actually think that's great actually which is there if you read the book there are no other more provocative moments. And I was kind of

OK with that you going to put the provocative things in that's OK as I just didn't realize that people were going to think it was that was going to people take it as a parenting guide I thought was can be a memoir. But the question is how much of what he was raised in a permissive household. Oh yeah. I was he was I said. Yeah. OK so you know he was raised in a wonderful household and he but he recently went to China and seeing the kids in Beijing is seeing extreme discipline. He was saying do you hardly see kids under the age of 18 on the streets they have school on English school on Sundays all prepared for the test and the final question was How much do I see this in you know contribute to the rise of China. Well ironically my previous book Day of empire was was intended to be a foreign policy book. You know unlike this one I got these questions about it

with Larry Summers when I was debating him or not debate it was in this thing I want to talk about Dave Empire very much about Tiger. So but in that conclusion. None of that book what I actually said that I was going to get to do very well but that it would could not replace the thesis was that it could not replace the US as a hyper power. It was possible that we would have no hyper power which I think we might you know go back. But I had a whole thesis I won't go into about not being able to innovate and be so creative and you know for now I guess this is the interesting thing. The book is being sold. I mean I had so much trouble with that Wall Street Journal headline when it hit China. You know I'm just the reason it's been so painful for me is that all over the world people think that this person named Amy wrote an essay called Why Chinese Mothers are superior. And has this list of things that she wants everybody in the whole world to do. You know I mean not realizing that it's a memoir with an arc or anything like that so I got all this angry stuff from from China like don't you know

we're trying to get it. So they quickly they quickly got the book out there and I almost thought I was going to have to do a lawsuit because when I saw the book and the title of the book just startled me. And it's called something the pitching is exactly the opposite the pitching is. I mean for them it's already goes without saying you know the strict drilling of them you know. Of course not. So they're pitching it just the opposite way which is like in order to you know you need to give more choices and explore more creativity. But the title of the book is something like parenting by Yale law professor. It is. But. I mean it's I that is actually the title that is actually the time. So I looked at it I called to my Chinese friends and then after. That we put a stop. We put a stop on it. We. Oh but it's always so I stopped. But then after talking to a lot of people you know all this up all the titles are different.

I actually try to understand the culture and where they are and what you're saying I kind of understand why they chose that title. It actually does a lot more they say they have a picture of me so I'm visibly Chinese. And then they yell law professor things like just within Western influences who has learned things you know. Yeah. Yeah. So it's and then you know the yellow Harvard thing is this is the successful thing so I don't know. He was saying that from the from coming from a Jewish background that he one of the things he gleaned if you're going to pick up principles of this you know the kind of parenting that I. Practice one is having is your right is having high expectations I would say by the way that it only really works when it's high expectations coupled with an ability to convey that love is is there I mean for I think a lot of the most tragic cases some of the most upset Asian market are for people for whom for one reason or another that love wasn't conveyed it was just talk. I mean I think if you're conveying whatever wherever western Chinese if the message you convey is you don't get an A I don't love you. I think that's bad parenting period. That's just bad parents you know.

So for me it's it's like the high expectations coupled with love is really I would translate it more into like I believe in you so much I know you could do anything right so that the question really is how to Jewish you know you or your narcissist one analysis like that you got the high expectations but more through arguing and not through the strictness. I don't know whether that's true or not but I have often said again not knowing whether it's right that I sometimes think of the Chinese as two generations behind the Jews. Right. Because but because if you think about the Jewish immigrants that came over first like the ones that were the butchers the bakers or whatever. I mean you think about some of the language that they I don't know people maybe these are now your great grandparents or but they. Yes so. And so was my husband's and so is my husband. Grandfather actually yeah yeah. Maybe their partner worded it as if it's offensive but they they were no sugarcoating very tough words you know a lot of things that people are you know while you said this to your daughter I mean you know and but what's interesting about the Jews is Jews are almost perpetual immigrants because I have a lot of students who are first generation they just

came from Russia or Israel so. So but where you are I mean it's interesting that in the 20s through the 50s the most the best violinist and classical pianist were all basically Jews from up in Odessa and form you know. And so now so there are. So that and the response that I know this is the response that I've had from the Jewish community has also been very interesting because it's probably been the most diverse. Just because there are just so many different ways of being a Jewish American at this point you know. So that's all really interesting. Are your parents immigrants. They are themselves OK. So the question is she's from a Indian background and found many many common things the same girls are dissing up to be ahead of all your classmates and math no sleep overs playdates all those academic excellence but the difference she noticed was not the emphasis on music she herself like playing piano but parents thought that's not useful that's just going to be you know entertainer.

I think that this is complicated because I think that my own parents were a little bit more like that. So I think it's an immigrant thing I think when you are are the immigrant. I think a lot of it is just about economic security. You know so I think the real reason that my parents were so you know you get these crazy rules that seem so brutal but you know my parents came over my mom could barely speak English. And the reason they didn't want me to be a poet or an artist or an actor plays wasn't because they wanted to approach you know it was because they had just come from. Japanese occupation the Second World War many people died they were malnourished they were afraid that they couldn't that their kids wouldn't be able to survive so they wanted stability. So I think it's like these practical things the doctor these are the practical things when you get to my generation I think that's why I was going to I was asking I'm actually more your generation right. I wanted my kids to in my book I say to have a sort of it's not all about survival anymore I know they're going to survive you know and I wanted them to have sort of a kind of cultural depth. And this by the way power follows an old American I think I was like Ben

Franklin. I was a butcher so you know that my son could be a banker so that his son could be a poet right there's a there's a sense of a sense of. But so anyway it's not a fight but it's a it's a. But the reason I am un come on unsatisfied with my own answer is that I happen to also know that many Chinese immigrant parents also do force their kids to do piano and violin and maybe in those cases is that they think it helps them to get if you can get into Juilliard or conservatory could help you go into an Ivy League school. Maybe there's something like that too. Yeah I don't know because of because I. Those are the immigrant you know parents. Thank you. Thank you for having me.