American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with James Lawson, 4 of 4

It was also a common theme, back then, In Nashville, in Chattanooga, in Memphis, in Jackson, mississippi in montgomery in birmingham alabama there Our race relations are peaceful and they will gradually change so militant non violent direct action intervention interferes with those relationships we heard that for the sit-in campaign in Nashville. The students in Atlanta heard it in Atlanta, Georgia. We heard that all over. So, we operated from a nonviolent urgency; from a passion for truth and justice to get told. We,

we suffered from a sense that people were in pain and being hurt and so even our own comfort should not become a reason to let their cries go on without being heard. [?host, background voice] okay? I want, we're going to get it right now into that final, you know the bus ride into Dacoma Montgomery into Jackson. It's like a let's talk about the dread, apprehension. [Lawson] yes [host?] Talk about the dread about going into Mississippi. Any young people who going to be dealing with people have no idea but Mississippi in 1961 was. Talk about the dread... [Lawson] Okay. There-. For many people there was dread, but but I should tell you that no matter

the potential cost for others of us we were more empowered by the necessity of the action we were taking than by any anxiety over what we would face. I have to say that about myself. I know that Bernard Lafayette has said this. I know that Jim Bubble has said this. I knew that others have said it, you see. We were young, maybe we did not see ourselves dying. I don't know. But I know that I went on that drop, I went on that Mississippi journey, and there was no fear in me about it, even though I knew that the consequences could be worse than I could have even imagined. I operated out of the confidence that we were on the right track. That history was on our side. Or let me say in a more theological fashion. What I

knew I was doing was in the will of the teachings of Jesus, and therefore I had to do it. [host] yes presidents the Alabama, Missisippi line [Lawson] Somewhere in there. [host] Where you are talking about, this is not ???largest massacres in the was that. [Lawson] Oh, yeah, that's crazy of course, but I should say to you that, yes, as soon as I got on the bus and the bus started from Montgomery towards Jackson, I asked the thirteen of us who were in that bus to go to the back of the bus where we could sit together and be closer, and where we could talk about the situation we were in, and what we could expect, we can brainstorm and we could do some orientation about nonviolence and so forth. I had a fairly mature experienced group in that first

thirteen headed for Jackson, but that was another one of the techniques of organizing. Decide what you're going to do in jail, decide if you're gonna meet violence what you're going to try to do with that. So we organize ourselves and one of the things that came out of that two or three hour session was that the first time we can get this bus to stop, let's have a press conference and say primarily, that we did not ask for all of the state police and the helicopters overhead and whatnot. That it was shameful that we could not travel peacefully in Alabama, without that apparatus of protection. That that meant the country needed major change. That the nonviolent perspective, we were

prepared to face the consequences of our peaceful bus ride and so I try to say as many of those things is our group had determined should be said. of course it was crazy is against the conventional wisdom now we have buses burning to beans and then you're willing to rest that again and we stand back thirteen that group of thirteen people in that first bus going into jackson mississippi said yes we are prepared to face that again if that's the only way that lance this racism, this hatred, this segregation, this cruelty imposed upon a people, then we were prepared to do it. that first verse from montgomery to Jackson Mississippi decided that that the first stop of the bus

we would stretch our legs and that I should hold a press conference outside the bus and express some of the feelings of the thirteen of us. So I tried to say in that press conference that we did not ask for this overwhelming military and police protection for a simple non-violent ride in a bus from Montgomery, Alabama to Jackson, Mississippi. And I try to say that we were non violent group and that we were prepared to face the violence that our peers had faced already in montgomery and in anniston alabama but if that was the price some of us had to pay to get jim crow segregation and the racism in america changed to allow the negro people that fall right of their freedom and god given dignity than we were prepared

to pay that price i also try to reiterate that what a disgrace it was a symbol of civilized people haven't group of neatly dressed men and women and many of those college educated people clergy and there were these four five clergy and that they're deemed group and that group of thirteen to ride for montgomery to jackson required in the minds of the government state troopers and national guard and helicopters should police cars of all kinds and famine back of the bus you saw the thirteen of us prepared ourselves and set of cells of strategy for getting off the bus we said when we reached the jackson

station a bus station we would each have a partner getting off the bus and we chose those partners on the bus then we designate it which group of troops would go where i agreed with alex anderson my partner we would get off the bus first we would head directly to the white men's toilet restroom others of the group headed towards the white waiting room others went directly to the white so called restaurant are calmer we'd had no way out of the place and we just had to guess another team i remember was going to go and sit in the white really really really mean so we've divided up our task when we arrived that

jackson i was tentatively surprised that the police would not waiting at the bus station for us i saw no police is i got off the bus and alex and i with our objective being the toilet marked white men went immediately through the door of those station and looked around for that sign saying white men only and we get there and we are we are relieved ourselves and we wore star faces and dried our hands and then we determined that we would come out of their way out of the restaurant and had to the restaurant so each team had a path that they will find as soon as they hit the door of the bus station and fall and that was my team then when we

came out of the toilet and then we saw a couple of police officers who immediately asked us to go with tennessee and tourist so we didn't get to go well what our next target was security we were immediately arrested and you do your work i wasn't sure about that i don't think i had thoughts about having a month there but i knew that the role that police action going on outside the bus that most certainly police was going to be in control of the scenery at that stop and like anniston montgomery area so he went to the wire but what

that what was on a typical at that time a lot of men's restroom or is none of the special about it but there was clean and and alex i did going into two and refresh ourselves that was really our first big movement after about four hours or five hours and unbeknown to us and i think that i should say i think that a police by surprise and they didn't expect us to have a plan get enough of us and it all of us are all about team who had six teams i think every team and got to their objective initially house and they were all arrested we will arrested and and as i've said i don't know we were arrested only after we came out of that white so called men's toilet lid over yeah

we i think i think the police did not expect us to be organized on that bus as we go i think they did not anticipate that we would go off in different directions that we knew where we were going and what we were trying to do so i think the surprise them and so as i say david they were not present where they can visibly interfere with my movement on my part and i walk directly into the air bus station spy be white men only signed and had it directly to that door and went on and in a real way the people in nashville who came together in nineteen fifty nine and sixty were not were destined to come together in nashville and each one of us and prepared our lives up to that

point to be able to fully respond to the challenge i love learned about an engaging in militant non violent action to create justice and freedom this is true of each person and diane nash was one of the foremost people who in a way i arrived at her destiny at fisk and nashville in nineteen fifty nine she was very angry when we met her with being in the situation of shopping downtown which was a major shopping area and being confronted by white colored signs over drinking fountains restrooms bean prohibited it from being able to stop at a restaurant downtown and have a

sandwich while shopping and so what she was frustrated and disturbed by this form of racism that she met in nashville which she had not seen in chicago girl she was anxious to get involved in doing something about some of her friends on campus that this did not understand why she didn't just allow herself to be a party one woman and a beautiful woman and that pace space of the parties and not be angry that they are being subjected to and dignity they never understood that but when she was told by paula prague that there were workshops on nonviolence and which we intended to de segregate downtown nashville she came i'm agnostic and skeptical about what we were doing and were that we could do it whether

we black folk and organize ourselves and take on the business community and the government and the police in nashville but with it i'd say to you within six weeks to two months or three months she was convinced that we were on the right track she became one of those people who determine that the nonviolent theory and spirituality fulfilled a part of her religious spiritual need of non violent theory and practice ended days in nashville and she exercised that her leadership was seen by other students even though it was a woman other students recognize your obvious talent and

intelligence and recognize that she was that exemplify in a form of courage that would not let her fears and anxieties stop her from moving forward in that in that effort the eighties heyday of this holiday is really all those issues are untrue and diane nash was the outstanding example of female beauty and intelligence encourage also shares outstanding illustration of what it is to be an emerging human being a growing lawyer named human being

here to put the freedom ride back into the bottle and off the front pages here and we at this point we're through of course to three hundred people already in the jails were along as the kennedy administration of course does not know what to do with all of this but one of the things i do know they ought to do is to manage the freedom ride and get it stopped get it back in the bottle and redirect it and so there were two conferences of robert kennedy the attorney general i did not make that first one in june because i think i was still in parchman prison end in the mississippi but i went to the second one and the argument that was

going on when something like this you need to gain political power and you gain political power through the ballot so instead of having these street demonstrations going to voter registration and we'll help you find the money that do voter registration if the mississippi negro could vote he would change their racism and that whole theme has proved to be absolutely wrong we were already doing voter registration bmw cpb are really good deeply committed to the sclc was deeply committed to it by that time and doing it in various places but our point of view was that yes we do want to get access to voting we need to have genuinely democratic elections that was my view in the united

states which no one of an advocate it anyway but we need that but that would be insufficient to do all the work that needed to be done it would not produce the end of racism the end of racism and the general law it was a multi tactical philosophical affair and that while we were willing to go ahead and expand voting registration we were not willing to a nonviolent direct action was kennedy remained no robert kennedy remain adamant that his political strategy was the better strategy and we remained and the wire walker diane nash and a number of other people who were in those conferences remain adamant that the rapid action had to expand and be enlarged in the sixties so you have a

new evidence that we would continue therefore to develop non violent direct action now almost four hours i guess we are saying yes we we wade in for robert kennedy that we would continue to allow the freedom ride to go forward to recruit people and to send people on buses or trains into jackson mississippi and that means meant that we would therefore fill the jails in jackson in may