NOVA; To the Moon; Interview with David Scott, astronaut and commander of Apollo 15, part 2 of 3

Well, on the landing site selection during the course of preparation from Apollo 15, we actually had five landing sites because they changed the sites depending on the results of prior missions. So as we went along, there was sort of bouncing from here to there. And finally, they decided that there were two prime candidates, Marius Hills and the Hadley-Apponine. And we had been schooled in both of those. We'd had lectures. We were learning about why we would go there, what we would do there. And clearly in my mind, Hadley-Apponine had the greatest variety, and it was also the most spectacular site. I mean, there's just grandeur in a place like that. And there's always something to be said about exploring places that are really, really beautiful. So when it came time

for Rocco Patrone to make the final decision because of the scheduling and the preparation that had to be made, at some point you have to decide where the crew is going to go, where we're going to land. And I was fortunate enough to be invited to Washington to sit on this large discussion by all the geologists. And it was sort of a debate between Marius Hills and Hadley-Apponine, a very interesting and very solid debate. And it was difficult for the system, management, science, et cetera, to make this decision. And Rocco went around a room as he normally does at the end of the discussion and asked people for their opinions. And I was fortunate enough to have Rocco ask me my opinion. There was no question in my mind because we had studied them both from a, you know, field observers' point of view. And Hadley seemed to offer a lot more in terms of what we could get and what the return would be. Just describe for me, describe for the audience. When you poke your head up inside that lamb and you looked around, you landed. What, what's it like? What did you see?

Well, it's just absolutely breathtaking. I mean, it's, as I think Joe Allen once said when he flew endlessly fulfilling. There's so much to see. And when you've studied the area and you, you think you know what you're looking for. And there's much more. And it's so clear up there. Of course, there's no atmosphere. And it's just crystal clear. And everything stands out. And there's such a great variety of landforms at Hadley. The mountains and the river and the rocks and the craters and et cetera, that you could spend a long time just looking. But of course, the job, there was a purpose of that, was to scout the area and see if we could drive the rover. There was some question as to whether or not there would be boulders that would preclude us from driving the rover. So one reason for taking a scouting expedition through the top hatch, of course, was to see if the rover would be trafficable up there. It just must be spectacular. I mean, it can't be like anything you see on earth. Well, you know, if you like the mountains, if you like to ski, you can get the top of the mountain on a crystal clear, boo day,

you can sort of appreciate something like that. Describe the genesis rock. Describe the north side and the find. Was this, take me to that moment where you came upon this rock that was unlike the, what would change history? Well, you know, again, because the Hadley Appenheim was located on the rim of the largest crater in the moon and craters excavate very deep when they're made. So the theory was that the penetration that made the Embryum Crater may have excavated some of the original lunar crust when the moon was formed. That was thought to be a crystalline substance, a plagiar glaze called an north side. So if that had been excavated, we might find some at the rim of the Embryum Crater and that's where we landed at Hadley. So having that knowledge and knowing that this would help understand when the moon was formed and how the moon was formed, it was one of many rocks we were looking for. But we were very fortunate. And again, we were schooled by the best and we

knew what to look for because there are certain unique characteristics of an north side. When we found it, I think Jim or when an I-Bose said, there it is. That's it. But it wasn't a lonely rock in terms of its significance. Many other rocks were just significant. In fact, there's one even older, a black and white rock, which was equally impressive when you picked it up on the moon. And we found a green rock, just a pure green rock, which we didn't even know how to describe. So there were a lot of surprises up there and that's what makes geology fun. That's what makes science fun because things you don't expect to happen happen. You get surprises all the time and it gets pretty exciting. How was your communication? Who were you communicating with geologically when you were up there on the ground? Well, we're always talking to the Capcom who was Joe Allen. Joe being a physicist, a scientist, and he was really into geology too. In fact, he was a neighbor and Joe was our direct link to the rest of the total system. And of course, in the back room, you had all our geologists who communicated with Joe and it

was very effective. In fact, during our pre-launch training on field trips, we simulated the entire geology expedition in terms of having a Capcom Joe Allen sit on the other side of a mountain when we were doing our training with a back room so that we'd be proficient enough to communicate quickly and effectively. So it must have made you feel good, though, when you found that piece of a north side. What did it mean to you when you found it? Not just personally, but to the geology that you were after. What did it mean? Well, it was one of many samples we found that were significant. And of course, at the time, there's very little time to do what you want to do and we were in an area called spur crater that was just, to us, an absolute gold mine of different varieties of rock. Talk about a suite. There were many different times of rock there and we only could spend, I forget, the very short amount of time. So the north side was a find that was exciting. Put it in the bag and get on with other things because you may, as Joe Allen said, you may find

diamonds in an x-crader. So there was just so much there and we're moving so quickly that actually the collection of the north side was one of many rocks that we felt were quite significant. How about when you got back on the earth later on then, David, when you looked at it in the lab, was there anything significant? And the geologists were so excited about it. Like, that's it, the Genesis rock. Well, I think, you know, the Genesis rock came from the media. Geologists stick pretty much to what the science is. And as I mentioned, there were many other rocks that were quite significant, the black and white rock, the green rock, etc. So when we got back and got to lunar receiving land and went down the row of the nitrogen containers with the rocks, very exciting to see our finds because they were all significant. And everybody has, you know, the various disciplines within geology, the sub-disciplines. All we're excited about different things. One of the things that everybody's so excited about all the time when we talk about lunar landings and stuff is they see that rover and they go, oh, that is so cool, especially the guys.

That would be so cool. Take us about that. How did you get that thing to play the first time? Did they make it easy for you? What was the advantage of having that rover up there? Well, you look forward to driving it on the moment. Well, the big advantage of the rover was that we could cover a wide range of geological sites at one location where you land, which really means, in our case, we landed at three places because we could drive the rover and we could extend our range. But of course, always on a first mission, you never know whether it's going to work or not. So we actually spend a great deal of time planning walking traverses because the rover might not unfold, it might not start whatever. First mission is always susceptible, right? And I guess the greatest thrill was to get it out, turn it on, and it actually worked. And I've got to say it's just a marvelous piece of machinery because of the way it's folded and of course, it's dormant all the way to the moon. And nobody really knows whether it's going to work or not from the time they stored on the pad. So first, to get it out and it unfolds and locks up and then turn it on and

have it work. Pretty thrilling. How fast could you go in that thing? Oh, I think we're probably going about 13, 14 kilometers an hour, not very fast. But you don't measure fast on the moon the way you do on the earth because the surface is so irregular and so undulating with craters that speed, you can't really think about 13 or 14 kilometers an hour in earth terms. We're going very fast on the moon because it's very irregular and very bumpy. What's it like to work on the moon? Ask certain in this question. He had an interesting answer. I might ask you too. Working on the moon, was it tough? Was it good? What was it like? Well, I guess my feeling working on a moon was doing the geology I'd been trained to do. And once you get out and get settled down in your suit, backpack and everything, don't even know you have them on. They restrict you some in your mobility. Every once in a while, you have to make a check. But again, a marvelous piece of equipment, if you will. We never had any real problems and you just forget about the fact that

you got all this stuff on. You just get on with the geology and working on a moon was practical playing on a moon for us. What's it like to be in 160G? Well, it gives you the comfort of being able to move about without the weight that you have on the earth. But at the same time, it's very different from zero G because you have an up and a down. So it's sort of a cross between the best of two worlds, being very light and having an up and down. And which gives you a normal acclamation in your body balance and that sort of stuff. But because you don't weigh much, you can, as you've seen, everybody sees on a film, sort of hip hop along, move quickly. But it's a very comfortable environment. Now, how far did you actually travel out with the lunar rover? I'm not sure I got that. Well, I guess we probably went about six kilometers to the, to the base of the mountain. I don't remember the exact numbers, but far enough that you're over the hill out of sight of the limb. Because again, on the moon, because the moon is so much

smaller than the earth, the horizon is only about a kilometer away. Whereas on the earth, you're looking at, you know, 12 or 13 miles. So it doesn't take long, even walking, to get out of sight of home base. And at that point, now you have to be confident in your system to make sure you can get back. Just stop for a second. Do you think Jim Rowan, who's now passed away because of a hard element? Do you think that his problem started on the moon with what was going on? What happened up there with his system? Well, I don't really know, for sure, where his problem started if they did. But while we were on the moon, his water bag inside his suit, and again, we're out for seven hours. So when you're outside working hard for seven hours, you have to have something to drink. The very clever NASA guys came up with a little bag of water inside his suit with a straw. Did you get plastic straw? Drink water. Well, the mission of Apollo 9 was really to go through a dress rehearsal for a lunar landing. And for the first time, the lunar module would be manned, which means that

we launched with it. Then after launch, I took the command module and turned around and docked with the lunar module, pulled it out of the S4P. And then Jim and Rusty got into the lunar module. They activated it. We did some test firings of the lunar module decent engine. And then in order to, which demonstrates the landing capability. And in fact, we even demonstrated the lifeboat capability that was subsequently used on Apollo 13. That was in the planning in the early days. And then the limb separated from the command module went out to about 100 miles or so and performed a simulated lunar rendezvous so that we could demonstrate the capability of the limb's engines. And it's separation from the assent and decent stage. It's rendezvous radar and a various equipment to prove that the limb could perform a rendezvous adequately, get back to the command module. Then the limb docked with the command module, which was the only time that was ever done. Because it's so difficult for somebody to look up through a top window

and fly. And there was some sunlight problems. So after Apollo 9, the recommendation we had was let the guy in the command module do the docking, which everybody did subsequently. So we learned a lot of things on that. And it was basically a rehearsal for a lunar mission. After that, when did you know what your next assignment was going to be? Because we're going to get into you're getting turned on by geology. So what happened after 9? Did you know you were going to get a lunar mission? Did you know which mission it would be? Well, very soon after Apollo 9, when we got back, I actually had a call to come over to Shepherd's office. And he said, we'd like you to back up Pete Conrad on Apollo 12 with our warden and Jim Irwin. Great. So we became the backup crew to Pete and Dick and Alan on 12. And actually it was a real benefit to us because we were able to learn the operational procedures of a lunar landing on the moon. I got to fly the LLTV. And we really followed, as you know, the backup crew was closely integrated with the prime crew. We tried to break their legs every chance we had. And you know,

Pete likes to tell a story that had Neil not made it. He'd have been first on a moon. I like to tell a story that had Neil not made it and had I broken Pete's leg out of in first on a moon. But anyway, it was Apollo 12 backup was a great experience for us. We really learned a lot from Pete and Dick and Alan. And I think it set us up, hopefully, for a lunar mission after that. Now, when did you get bitten by the geology bug? What happened? For a guy who kind of like, you know, looked in the back of the class, why did you all of a sudden get inspired? Well, I learned a fair amount during 12, Apollo 12, because we went to Hawaii, had some geology trips. And even though 12 did not do a lot on the lunar surface, there was a reasonable amount of geology training. And it seemed pretty interesting to me. And I knew that the objectives of the subsequent missions would be more geologically oriented. And I think I really probably got most interested when we got on Apollo 15. And we found out we were going to have longer duration backpacks long before we ever had a rover or they changed missions.

And we found that we would have backpacks that enable us to stay out for seven hours. Well, we've got to learn a fair amount of geology to be, to perform for seven hours. Seemed interesting then. And then about that time, we were introduced to Lee Silver, who was going to be our professor. Actually, through Gordon Swan, Gordon Swan was the principal investigator on Apollo 15. And Jack Schmidt had, as you probably know, bought Lee Silver, suggested that Lee come in to teach Gordon Swan being the prince that he is, knows Lee's sort of stuff aside and let Lee take over. And I was just fascinated with the man. He's just the world's greatest teacher. A lot of fun. He took us out in an orcopy mountains here for a week and made geology fun. I mean, it was just really interesting to way put it across. How did he do it? To give me an idea of what he would do. Well, he makes your work. He makes you think. You know, a lot of our early geology training was somebody telling us what the formation was and what the rocks were. What Lee Silver does, he says, what is this and what is that and why is it there? So he makes

you think. And at the end of the day, if you've done it right, you're very satisfied. It makes you feel good. It's an adventure. So with Silver, you know, you sort of had this satisfaction when you did right, when you did wrong, you let you know about it. Then you weren't very satisfied. So you worked harder. But it was just fun being with him and fun learning about geology, because it's just a fascinating science. So you got turned on. I described the field trip, the suite of rocks and that kind of thing. I think that's a great story. His approach. Well, his approach was the suite of rocks is to gather up a handful, six to twelve rocks in an area that represent the geology of the area and then tell why they represent the geology of the area. And it becomes a pretty interesting technique to be able to very quickly gather up these rocks and then explain what you see in the formations. We stopped at a road cut. And of course, on the side of the road, the rocks from a higher layer would fall down

to the bottom. And if you picked up rocks that represented the various layers above you, you could tell a story about those layers without climbing up the side of the road cut. So this suite idea was really, it was a grabber, because you could find again some satisfaction. Once you learned that if you picked up some sandstone that was like... We're making good time here, Frank. Don't worry, we're all set. Well, a transition from Apollo 9 was really one of not acquiring a new discipline, learning something new. We had learned on Apollo 9 and back up Apollo 12 how to fly the mission. So now it was an opportunity to learn how to apply ourselves on the mission, geologically. And with Lee Silver as a teacher, it was very satisfying, very challenging. In fact, you know, there's quite a difference between doing field geology on the moon

and doing field geology on the earth. Because on the moon you don't have the time you do on the earth and on the moon you only get to go once, you never get to go back. So we had to learn techniques. In fact, Lee had to learn how to teach us these techniques so that when we got to the moon we could be effective observers and we could utilize the time properly. And we spent a lot of time studying the moon, learning about our landing site so that again we could be effective in the very short time available. So it became a challenge, you know, it became a fun challenge with a bunch of great people. And you take Lee Silver and Gordon Swan and all the geologists at Flagstaff and all over the world really supported us. Field trips were just a vacation for us. It was holiday. Out of the simulators, you know, into the field and it was just great sport. Now what about as you were watching as you were watching 14 and what was going on with shepherd and Mitchell up there, you were getting frustrated in the back room. I mean as you watch these guys, they were getting, you know, they were getting confused and lost. I mean, you did,

did you have a reaction to the way that mission got planned and what was going on on 14? Well, not really. I think 14 did the job they set out to do. It was not heavy in geology. But in the other hand, they did what they had to do and they had a real challenging situation. I mean, as you've probably heard from others, it's very difficult in the moon to determine how far something is away or how large it is. There's no way to scale it. So on 14, the challenge trying to get the cone crater was very frustrating for everybody, especially, of course, Allen and Mitchell. But I think they did a great job considering the situation, pulling the metal on and those sorts of things. I thought 14 was a real successful mission. Did you have any, did you make up your mind? Hey, on my mission, we're going to do something different because of lessons learned on 14, planning the mission, anything like that? Well, you always hopefully learn lessons. I guess one conclusion that we reached that we really didn't have to reach the conclusion was it might be better without the met, the mobile, the wheel

barrel. And it turns out we were fortunate enough to get the lunar rover, so we never had to really resolve that situation. But everybody learns from every mission. And it's not just the struggles, but it's the learning experience that we apply for a mission to mission. Now, what about the landing site for your mission? First of all, were you excited about it being the first J mission? And where were you going to go? Described to me. Where were you going to go? Why was it chosen? What was important geologically about where you were headed? Well, it's a long story. Hadley-Apanine is probably, in my opinion, the most spectacular landing site on the moon that we could reach. There are other places that may even be better, but you can't reach them. So within the bounds of being able to land the lunar module and explore the moon for three days, Hadley-Apanine is certainly the most interesting to me. It has a real or a canyon, has enormous mountains, 15,000 feet above you. I mean, it's just an amazing place, which you can't really describe and the photographs don't do it justice. But part of the fun of going to Hadley was learning

about what was there, what might be there, what we should find, what the objectives were geologically, and the more you got into it, the more challenging it became, and the better adventure it became. What was your take on being the first J mission? Were you proud of that? Was that a big deal to you? Oh, of course. Being the first J mission, getting the first lunar rover, first three day mission on the moon and a longer duration backpack and all that, of course. That was just a great opportunity and we were really fortunate to be in the queue when it happened. What was different from the J missions and the other missions? What separated the J missions from the other missions? Well, on the J missions, NASA actually stretched the rubber band about as far as you can go. They extended the capability of the lunar module. The propulsion system was better, the guidance was better, they added the lunar rover, we had longer duration backpacks, more consumables, more everything. So it was stretching out to the edge of the capability of the

entire system. In fact, I think the J missions were a very bold decision by the managers at that time. And of course, you know, we get to fly them so we were really enthusiastic. Why was, in your own mind, why was it important to do geology on the moon? Roll up. Good. And some of them were quite red. When they're red or orange, they usually reflect an oxidation of iron contained in the rock due to interaction with steam, which many of those things emit. By the time we got to 17, we'd learn the hard way. We've never seen any of the presence of a drop of water, a molecule of water on the moon. And I thought that what these guys had finally found was at Shorty, this crater was a volcanic crater, and this is a place where steam had turned the black stuff orange red. Good. I got to get that very end. I'll just

add that up here. Two's upside down. Well, the way you set up the relative position of the two spacecraft is such that when the limb gets ready to leave the command module, the eyes of the people in the limb are 180 degrees upside down from the eyes of the guy in a command module. And in space, when there's really no ground and there's no gravity, you don't have a down. So each crew sees the other as being upside down, which is sort of a joke. Okay. All right. We're going to change back to film. Great. Terrific. You're doing a good job. Do you need some water or something? No, I'm fine. Fine. Why was it that way? I mean, it's just the way they were configured. I see. So it wasn't a design feature. It was. No, just you know, you're undocked. Yeah. And when I forget how it really was, but when the limb pitch so that it could see the command module, well, it's legs were up. It was just a fallout. What was that? It's just a fallout of the orientation.

When you undocked, the first thing you wanted to do with a lunar module was to pitch it so that the guys in lunar module could see the guy in a command module. When you did that, it just turned out that the feet relative to the command module were up. Was it some of your sun two so that they wouldn't get blind at all? Oh, yes. Everything was oriented so you would be out of the sunlight. Yeah, there's spent a lot of time on lighting. These all these things were very precisely planned. What Maggie? Oh, yeah. And Paul and I was the first mission that actually did that. Yeah. I didn't know this, but you know, of course Jim Erwin, Daniel, you know, there's some speculation. People thought that he actually did damage to his heart on the moon because you guys, you know, his water system wasn't working. I want to ask you about that, all right? Okay. Okay, Dave Scott, 78. It's going to be take three. Okay, Mark. Do you think Jim Erwin, who's now passed away because of a hard happen? Do you think that his

problem started on the moon with what was going on? What happened up there with his system? Well, I don't really know for sure where his problem started if they did, but while we were on the moon, his water bag inside his suit. And again, we were out for seven hours. So when you're outside working hard for seven hours, you have to have something to drink. A very clever NASA guys came up with a little bag of water inside his suit with a straw. You could plash the straw, drink water. Let me stop it because you just ran out of film. I said, okay, good. We're on to this one and we're after this.