Rock and Roll; Interview with Johnnie Johnson [Part 2 of 3]

Get the new camera on the. OK so tell me that Johnny that you used how you used to play mostly and then demonstrate that. Well I was used to playing blues on Chuck Berry for a hook up and blues. On. And. Feel the blues and then when I got hooked up with Chuck and we was playing. Hillbilly or whatever. It had a different feel to it and everything which went similar to this. One.

Made. In. The feel of the hillbilly tune up with. The Maybelline tune. Great. Let's do it again on the fingers. Maybe you could do a little shorter on each of each example. We'll film a closeup in your hand so we can intercut. Could you do the same thing again. When I first started out I mean. Playing a blues on the sound. Of. That was the sound of the blues and what I was used to playing you know before I hooked up with

Chuck and then we got together and Chuck put out the hillbilly tune Maybelline which was similar to. Mine. And. Made me start saying it. And we go from there. The rest is history. Great. So I keep that thought. Well now tell me about this tour after Maybelline became a big hit. How many nights and what kind of fights went to who the audiences were. Well the audition with mostly young kids that started out in New York at the entry rock n roll show. And then it went cross country from New York all the way to Florida with Miami Florida. We ended up with two ended up in Texas where

everybody broke up and went their separate ways. But the audience we had to play in some place that we play we had to play twice once for the black and once for the white. And a lot of places we went to play we can even get hotel rooms. Sometimes some of the. Residents of where we played black friends would let us stay with them at night and sometimes we'd have to sleep in the bus and ever. And never as. I say with disaster the two of us finding places to stay at times and in some places where we play we had to play two shows playing two shows with price and one. This and it would last a hundred and one one night as. We only missed maybe about two on account of the weather and one place we played in Texas a band was playing over here and they had cows and horses and things. Right next to you like in a barn. Is. That pretty common in the 50s where you'd have to play for two to separate a very common very common set

down Southern you know down south way. Back in taxes in Mississippi in places like we had to play to two. But at the point the further north we come the more you know more co-opted. I would just play in one job and the Mixolydian is down there we had to say two different art white and black. What about here in St. Louis when Chuck was with the band was that mostly black audiences or were they mixed. Well when we were before we made Maybelline it was a black audience cause we were playing in Albany St. Louis and this was a black town what we planned. But after we made record Maybelline or whatnot and we played plays like kill all the time or whatever you have mixolydian already there actually was more quiet than it was. Let's come here please. Mark. Now. I keep we keep kind of talking around

I Gates it's you know it's a real turning point. What do you think it was about that record about Maybelline that caught the attention of the white kids in the country around them. Well I think the main reason that the court threw out that there was the blackfellow doing it after they found out you know this backwards and doing it and then on the second hand it was that type of music that you the black people didn't do because his own country western style and whatever. And that I say people were really surprised when they saw him with a black artist that was doing it. So I think that Carnegie with it it had a different. Feel from what they were used to. I say public is always looking for something new. And this was very new to them believe me. So I think that's what really put it over. And when you went up to Chicago to record Maybelline and other song at the chance to you tell me about that what were that what were the chest brothers like to work with and what were they trying to get from his music.

OK we will we've got to learn that they had a very very small studio. In fact they're all one track was shaky and. The room was very small. They had up right like this. But the brothers themselves I mean they don't know about recording God I guess they already did a lot of it. So we went in the studio by 8:00 o'clock at morning and do Maybelline and we came out around 1:30 the next morning just for that one record because the things we would do we had to do so many times they would take the best of each time we do it they would cut anything on that until we got what Linda Chavez wanted. So as I say it took quite a while. The Blues part we did like two or three times and that was it but Maybelline was much different. And Leonard Chess know just how he wanted it. Chuck knew that this thing recording I was new drone with new. So he made quite a few mistakes you know. It took just that long to correcting the mistakes

where they could put it on tape and make a master tape out of it and send it off and have it rest. We find it when we finally finished with it and he said well this is a tape. And it was so odd and whatever when they sent it off you know it takes some time for five weeks a master tape to even go into prison. They did this on about two weeks the record was out on the street. So I think it was very hard to get it out so quick and not knowing the thing about recording. Then after that sometime we'd be on a road and Chuck would write a song. I mean you write the lyrics like say we playing here tonight in St. Louis we're going to Chicago. He write lyrics or song between here and Chicago and we get to Chicago. We will go a little chess and he and I would put the music together and make a record just like that. I think in his book he was telling people that he and I could communicate with this by looking at each other and me play and so many commented on that guitar. Matter of

fact Keith Richards had a statement in Rolling Stone magazine. About a lot of folks who were playing with my playing off the piano. But it worked out fine. So I don't think he ever had a bad seller back in those times. But now he seem to be struggling to get a hit out there now. I don't even know if he's trying anymore. Can't say I've been out on my own now for about five years so. Let's. Keep that thing in my white medium. OK so let's talk about school days maybe you could start out saying that Chuck had the lyric to the song school days and then I came up with this. Well we're on our way from New York to Baltimore I think it was. And had been about pretty close to two months since we had made a recording.

And Chuck say about time for us to get something else on tape you know he said I got some idea. What kind of music to put behind him. I say well I've got a bad day and we see I work out when we get to Baltimore. So we've got to Baltimore and got in the studio and I asked him how would you like this for an intro you know. So it work out just fine. So we rehearse at two or three times. And you come up with the song and it all blended into that. And he could do this on the guitar too so the time that I was playing with him he could do the same thing with keep the intro the same. So that's how we would do a lot of the songs and just just so there's no confusion here. Just tell me that that was cool. That song was great. They had that name that was school days right. I

think. Could you just say again that that's how school days got written. In that moment or on down the line and that's how school days come about. Just off of that intro and whatever and it blend in fine weather you are in it you know got to go with the lyrics. OK we're going to take a short break to change them back. OK. OK. It's. A. Time when talking somewhat about how the band would have to play it to separate audiences during this time in the 50s touring around the country and especially in the south. And in 56 or so when Elvis started to hit. There was a lot more uproar that you heard around the country. What do you what do you think was going on in terms of I mean there were people smashing records. There were. There was you know a segregationist group saying that rock n roll was going to be the root of all. Evil. And what do you think was going on in the country then.

Well I really couldn't answer that. To. God. I don't know if it was between choking Elvis the type of music they were playing. Some people say it was a bunch of unjustified reversal. But they were they having this payola stuff back at that time and I think I had a lot to do with it. This or who records played the most and whatever. So actually that's what I can do with that question. OK. Did you ever have any problem with. With people saying that this kind of music was you know the devil's music and it shouldn't be children shouldn't be listening to and oh yeah you got a lot of that from the elderly people you know they were saying that. Well they didn't you tell you that they saying this is filthy music. And some of the lyrics and whatever it was wasn't suitable for young kids to hear which I couldn't see nothing wrong with the lyrics they were doing whatever.

But that was just what we were facing back at that time. I go I wonder what they're saying about the lyrics nowadays. They're outrageous now you're not really. At that time in the 50s that it seemed like the white teenagers were really going for big beat music and a lot of rhythm and blues derived music for the first time in a big way. You think that's true. What do you think it was. Well I know they that big turnouts with the young kids and I play they. They all just having a big time off of this type of The Beatles a car or the whatever. And the music that we were playing was actually what they wanted to hear. So I guess that's what put it over big it went over. We've been talking to people about. How rock n roll call you know Alan Freed may have coined the name in the popular.

Media but how where that music in general comes from the origins of what we now call rock n roll. What do you think of where it came. Well as I said earlier the music that people like Fats Domino or whatever Carl Perkins or whatever. It wasn't called rock n roll at the time and that's all it was. And then I think of what really brought it in the light was when. We did the show to Paramount 1003 show. And the kids got really got into pop and in fact that then rock and the real and whatever. And I free with our on the stage say just look at them rocking and rolling and rolling on. That's what we call this music rock n roll. So I think that's where the biggest turning of rock and roll come in it wasn't so much as the music is the way the kids will react to what they were hearing. The way I see it. Do you think what we people call rock n roll is any different really from rhythm and blues. No.

I don't. I mean they just played in a fast with tempo in some cases and slow. OK. The blues that seemed to be taking over everything now you can play the same thing in a pool like. Put it in the first temple. Period they would just go wow and you find nothing but uptempo blues and they say they rock and roll it. So that's not a definition I can come up with. From my experience of playing for a different audience. And more started to play like when I go to Europe and whatever you see more young teenagers at these turn out than you do elderly people. At the rock and the outdoor festival and whatever I'm going to Australia. June 12 this year I'll do it for

two weeks and I went over there year before last and the whole 10 citizens took that number of young people there never did to one of their MCs who were young and middle age old all young people and they were like that with the blues so actually. They wanted more blues than what they considered a rock n roll and they were right up my attic that's what I play bass. So everything went fine. I hope to at this time be as successful as it was the first time. So. Just thinking back again for a minute in the mid 50s era. When you first heard the music of Elvis Presley What did what did you think of it. Well I thought he was just playing some downright save for rock blues. He just got his body work he was doing the twisting and turning thing going on.

But his music had a boogie woogie type of beat up song like Heartbreak Hotel and whatever other hole he was playing blues me. Did you feel like he was. Covering black music the way Pat Boone was or did he really have some of his own. I think that was his own feeling. And you say that it over again in your own words. Yeah I think I was I was on that too. I mean listen to the type of music that he listened to back at that time. I think he developed his own idea of the music that he wanted to play in this with his type music that he was playing and it wasn't a carbon copy or nobody is sure he sang along like nothing but a hound dog whatever which was already out. But he had a different feel to his music then. Odd as it put it out. I think this was beyond belief. And how did you feel about the white cover versions of other songs like things that Pat Boone would do or Bill Haley would do. Did it seem like. They were ripping off the original music or were they really helping to popularize.

I think they were up in a proper light. Because they were already out there. In a different version that people would hear would cause you know call their attention to listen to it more than just hearing one version of it. We'll see. All right let's stop here for a moment please. OK. Are. You good for the show. Before I forget. I've been asking everybody just to say their name to the camera just for you. You just look right in the lens and say. Oh my name is Brian Johnson. You think just go with it. Just just say it again and I'll also say that he used to play with Chuck Marion. Oh my name is Janet Johnson and former Chupke various piano player. And quite a few without a cane or whatever. Now I'm out on my own. Hope to be successful. I was playing with them.

Great thing to watch. Just keep rolling. Thank you for that. And look. Tell me about Turner's been in St. Louis he had a band and your band were kind of. Both the two biggest bands around the St. Louis train one time. Tell me about that and why and how his music was different from what you were doing or was it the same. No. We were playing the same music but I had a big a much larger band in mind. Plus he had one in his band which he would have big or bottom sound. And I just had a rhythm instrument piano bass drums and guitar and we were playing the same type of music but he had a big band so he had a bigger sound. So therefore I guess to say he got more attention more job than I because I almost most like stationary. The one place person I was playing for he didn't want me playing in place says Scott. We had built up his club and also a name for my band also.

So when I come to town he came in made a name for himself and. Played quite a few plays and I used to play a lot of private things more than clubs. So that's the difference in the music only that big band sound I would say. And when when Chuck was with your band you were playing a little more of a song with more of a country flavor. They were all white country people believe me he tried it. Chuck did one of the two. Ballads thing but they didn't go over nothing like his original you know his original tune. And I got broke into where. I actually when I said it was some of the band was playing jazz or somebody get lost. They used to play in rock n roll. So really I had to. Keep in touch with all type of music so you know I could work with any kind of band. Let's talk a little bit as we started before about Fats Domino what you think I mean.

Are. You ready to retire. When. You're. Ready. Just tell me that again. How what what kind of music. Chuck Berry always liked and would practice. When a John you know when I hired him and in my group. We were playing just standard blues and whatever inch Chuck could be whether they understood that too much because he had his own style that he was and which was Country Western or hillbilly whatever you wanna call it. And I guess him figuring. With this type of music something different and he would get more attention because he had a lot of competition out there playing just regular songs you know. So he maybe figured he wasn't good enough to play the type of music that with his style so he would create his own style of the black entertainer and get more attention to this and it seemed like it worked out real nice for him. And the reason that you know I stayed with him

so long I was just saying he offered me opportunity to get on the world to really see what it was all about and to make more money. That was the bottom line. So instead of him writing my music I learned his music. And at another point by me growing up in West Virginia I was used to listen to country western music too. Now this. Program I was telling you about early that I was listening to KDK from Pittsburgh big band music. This was called on patrol. It didn't come on like 12 o'clock at night. But up until then I was listening to country and western music all the time and wasn't too much of a straight for me to play it since I played by ear and not by music. We're going to put up the last roll. George we're all set here. Take a new Mac. It's like I just put up a