WGBH Forum Network; Playground: Child Sex Trafficking in America; Boston Initiative to Advance Human Rights

Can you talk about just how you're doing with us and what you're doing to address this problem. Well at first I have to say it wasn't work that I was looking for. You know I had on a girl friend of mine who was working with Lisa go black grace the director of the my life my choice project which was in the response around 2001 to the death of a young woman who was murdered who was you know in and out of group homes and no one knew that she had been involved in the sex industry and that she was found murdered and to this day they don't know who killed her. So my girlfriend asked me they were you know they were kicking this off. She asked me to come and speak we knew each other from the street and she asked what I share my story and I said No problem. I began to speak. Two adults that they were training and then they asked me to speak to teens. And then out of nowhere at that time we were there with the Home for

Little Wanderers a hopeful and wondrous contacted me and asked me to do some of these trainings you know. Then I began going into the teen group homes and I have to say as a mother of three girls I never wanted to work with girls. Never. And but when I went to these group homes that I begin to tell these young ladies what I had been through I began to build fabulous relationships. Through me sharing where I had been they we were able to identify victims. These young ladies were beginning to come out and say you know what these things happen to me to prove that work. I remember the Department of Social Services had asked me to go and see a young lady who was 15 years old at the time who was in the sex industry as a matter of fact the big story there's a big piece on. The conviction of two pimps that just got convicted I think each girl of 25 years and she was my first

case and I remember going to see that young lady and my introduction was again to tell her where I had been and how I said what I had survived. And we began to build a relationship and I began to sufficiently on a weekly basis. And then before I knew it I began to get all kinds of referrals of girls who had been identified as being in the life. I began to get referrals of Hybris girls. So what I identify with in the movie are the girls that the Runaways the girls that are in and out of the system so I can't really identify with that because that those are the girls that I work with. The girls were people used to say things like well she does it because she likes it you know. And these girls had nowhere to turn to and I could really understand their shame and by me working with those young ladies. And then as the as it became like you said no one talked about it. So the more victims were identified the more trainings we began to do because we had to change attitudes

because believe it or not the people who work with these children their language was oh my god I was going to group homes around a group and it's a prevention group and they were the girls with say I'm not going to that prostitution group. And so we had to really change the language and the thinking through training the you know the adults it was amazing the adults who work with these women and they weren't helpful at all. They made the kids feel worse. And so you know I've been doing that for are up almost eight years now and I've built really great relationships with law enforcement. And it is just what I do it is. You know not only a lot of people will say you know you're you mean a lot to our kids but they don't know what their kids mean to me and how this work has really helped me to keep it in order you know to really set an example and I want to keep that example because these girls have no one.

And what I found with the young lady in the film you know all of my girls you know they want their mothers and their mothers and not in their lives for different reasons. And I you know I hear the story all the time the girl that runs to you know an unsafe place just to see her mother. And so what I do is I have I'm that person that I stick with that kid. I have kids I have a young lady that came with me today who I met at age 14 who ran all the time who is now 19 years old and I still meant to her. And so I brought her way Danielle. And so I brought the Shanley with me. Because these are the kind of relationships I could have probably thought the whole role with relationships of young women who had met at like age 15 who are now 18 19 and 20 and who have you know made it out alive so and that's pretty much kind of what I do.

And again I run a 10 week group I go into all the DCF funded facilities girls group homes lock facilities mental institutions anywhere there's juvenile girls. I'm there and I run this 10 week curriculum which is a prevention curriculum to prevent girls from getting in in the life. And so I run at least three to four groups a week a caseload of probably 10 to 12 girls that I have to keep up with. And you know I do a pretty good job at it sometimes they give me the slip but that's what I'm dedicated to. And so I just love what I do and never thought in a million years again that I will work with girls. I love them they love me. They are the most judgment tall people on earth. I mean they're amazing and so on it in a nutshell that's what I do that's why I continue to do. And I I couldn't see myself doing anything different. So it's pretty much.

Thanks. Thank you. One of the things about another aspect of the movie that was quite compelling was seeing the various social workers the NGO officials the police law enforcers talking about how to deal with the problem. But we also know that we have a long way to go in terms of truly addressing it in terms of legal listed plea terms of statutes in terms of any number of ways. Karen one question regarding the task force you're dealing also in a state which does not have a human trafficking law. Massachusetts is one of five states I understand that has not passed a law. Forbidding human trafficking. Can you talk about that and why and relate that to the context of the film which we just did. What Libby said film it's just extraordinary.

It's been brought to a lot of places all over the country. She really is just really very much in the same thing that Audrey is bringing voices of victims. She's brought the voice of victims. I can't thank her as a professional working on victim's issues for the last 30 years. Enough about what these testimonials really mean to all of us because we don't have that opportunity to hear every single day from every victim who we're all working with and to get that information out to the public so I told her before she's the artist turned activist and I really do mean that Libby. Thank you. You're just another victim completely immersed in helping other victims. I'm so amazed. The reason the NCA the ability to be able to take the work the pain the suffering the issues that you had to address in your prior life. And put that to the most important use too toward prevention and toward helping the victims. So is

out of that victim mode that activist mode that I also got involved is far is the work being being done in Massachusetts. We are very much trying to keep doing the work in spite of having no state law. It was introduced four and a half years ago by Senator Montigny. It's still alive in the House it passed the Senate. I say sometimes that if we were a country we'd be Burundi even Burundi has a national plan to help human trafficking victims. So it is still hanging by a thread in the house and we hope to see some action before the end of the year. As far as why I don't know inertia. Busy schedules I don't know. So I look to all of you to help us with this effort. I'm happy to give you more

information on the bill. But let me also take this opportunity to thank Congressman Congresswoman Maloney who was here yesterday because she's got. The other major bill winding its way through Congress that we really need to pass. It's all about domestic sex trafficking victims. It will help provide grants and support for. All the various agencies that work with victims and you saw many of the representatives in the film. I'm very grateful again to Libby for showing those people on the front lines and for really dealing with some of the complex issues that we don't have a chance to tell the public about either the federal law that's pending How is the very good chance in spite of it being a really difficult time in the budget process. So I would ask you if you're interested to come up there is a talking point that we can give you if you're going to call your

state senator or rep. I didn't mean for this to be just a political pitch but as long as you asked. All of you who are inclined to be activists with us. There is other federal legislation pending one that just passed the Senate just two days ago on international forced marriages of children. So I would really love to talk to you have an opportunity to give you some background so you really know the background behind these bills. I'll give you the bill numbers. You can be on websites tonight to look at the. Summaries of the bills. So I encourage you to educate yourself and thank you so much for the question we don't usually have time to publicly pontificate so much about such urgent issues so thank you for your for your start of this in 2000 and one effective way. You concluded the film in 2000 and not in 2008. I

assume you have you must have encountered some of the same problems that he's talking about in terms of actually trying to get this in the in the in front of the public. I mean yeah I know but it misrepresent the National Center was not at all disregarding that the story is just what you're saying which I agree with. The problem is so massive and it's everywhere. It's and you know this 78 minutes was edited down for almost for the editor or readers here was it 400 hours of footage or eat. I mean it's really difficult to do because it's so prevalent and it penetrates every every race every you know different socioeconomic background. And so we really just had to you know sort of focus on one particular area. Otherwise you know we would have a series that could go on for 40 hours. The question is this will seem like a natural media issue. Oprah Winfrey would be a person who works should be naturally involved with us. I don't know. I was going to say I was going to say Pete one of the I think one of the problems in it from a media

perspective and I'd like the paddle to address as well is that there are a lot of ways of approaching this issue too often its pros approach in a sensationalist manner and sometimes to be honest with you it's sometimes a reporter has a hard time differentiating what is sensationalist and what isn't. And then from the from those who are working in the home this working this on the ground there is there is justifiable concern that media might be exploiting the very people whom they say they might be representing. And so there's a lot of concern and so in other words it's a cop. It's there's some complexity to the whole media conundrum. I just want to say that Oprah's doing something in her next round on her new show which will be called Oprah Winfrey Network. She's actually interviewing survivors who are working on the demand side of things you know working on prevention like I guess doing so I hope I'm not tipping anything off tonight on to say that but you know

she's got the microphone. I actually think what you're see what you're saying is is a really important area to concentrate on especially because we're at a film forum and communications and social media and the the performing arts and all those other things in addition to film really needs to be our vehicle. We cannot have enough voices and frankly you know I would rather have those thousands of voices than one show on Oprah. Frankly I agree with you and like you know I want her to endorse one of these films because we need something like the book. The book deals that she does the book you know clubs that she does. We need to do we need to spotlight some of the work that we're doing and the filmmakers who are struggling to do it. I actually think that this is a brilliant mechanism for us to continue to expose people to this field. The question is how do we scale this up how do we get the ovaries but how do we get other parties to. We also saw some terrific

new scripts that have been done with the Performing Arts where young people have performed incredibly well in terms of new plays that needs to be a part of a documentary to documentaries on demand need to happen. So we need to cast a wide net to be inclusive to bring these parties together. And I think we really need to hear from Libby in terms of what films film itself. Well I think yeah I think things like OHP are great I think actually to what's equally as important is just what we're doing today and I think going I think what you have to do is you have to go community by community city by city and state by state because as we know you know all the different arenas we want to affect We want to change legislation which is one of many steps by the way because you have to also enforce it. Legislation is different in every single state in this country. You also you know the organizations in the work that's being done you can have to go into each city and find the right partnerships and bring everybody

together which is another issue. Quite frankly everybody needs to work together on this issue because we need all the resources out there just people here today you guys actually can do something I mean there definitely needs to be some letter writing to local legislators but you need you know I guarantee that everyone will walk a day walk away today and tell at least five friends and that dialogue of just telling people is tremendous. I think things like Oprah are great. It definitely hits the masses but I think again if we want to really administrate change it's getting to the people on the Hill and it's also just getting to the communities. I mean I think you know Kara knows we the screenings we've done you know we did a screening in Atlanta where you know we had 500 people and I you know I always had people raise their hand like you guys know anything about this before we came in. Usually 80 percent of the audience is oblivious to this issue happening locally and that's to me the most shocking thing but I was in the same position where I thought this was just something that happened elsewhere.

And I think by people understanding that it happened here you know with American children all colors all races will make people also care more I think it will further the movement overseas. If we can further the movement in our own backyard as well. Well you know a lot of times we do we focus a lot on the pimps who are profiting but a lot of times the pimps are connected with us. You know it sometimes can be the little guy. You know what I mean. We have to look more at. The guy who owns the strip club. You know because there was a club in Providence where the girls were able to strip at age 16. You know I mean but they have that back room. You know. There's always and we teach the girls that there's all and it's usually always the male like the latter keeps climbing. You know I mean it doesn't just start with the little guy. So the pimps the club owners. The people

who own the websites. With the stuff as being. Absolutely absolutely. Right. Yes. And can I say yes and let me say this one I remember. But what's hard about changing laws Briley from my experience. The johns are the ones in power to make the laws and the ones in power to change the laws. I remember our thanks. Thanks. To. The training we did a training for court personnel. And judges and so forth. And I like immediately. Had a flashback. Really looking at this room of lawyers that was probably the number one. Profession. Of the johns that that would come around so the people that's what makes it really hard the people who can you know the governor. You know I

mean like yes. Yes the people that can change the laws are the one participating. And bisects. Yeah yeah. I mean I just want to further what Audrey just nailed it I mean we just did another documentary in Portland for America's Most Wanted and it wasn't re-enactments it was just a 20 minute documentary. And within the making of that documentary we couldn't film this but Sergeant Justus who are following had a 15 year old girl who'd been trafficked in Portland and they walked into the courtroom and she turned around and walked out and don't follow her he's like what's wrong and she's like I'm going to lose that judge was one of my customers. So this. Absolutely happened you know. Scott Dunning the first officer you saw in the film in the opening he talked about when you go into these clubs there's like a menu. He's been kicked off out of Portland PD because he was a guy who was frequenting these clubs and buying these girls which is why I had so much information when I worked with him. So. Audrey's right the people that are making these decisions and it was interesting

because Doug and I talked about you know Doug being a man who's in you know Portland Petey's been working for 30 years and he said he said to me Libby It's men the people that are making the decisions a lot you know a lot of these guys are it's not all members obviously you know their customers they're the customers. I think to your point too that we have to really address how big the sex industry is and this is the the real core of the problem. I mean when we're dealing with this and we're talking about the enforcement capability and the limitations of it or anything out there we have an extraordinary problem. It's a triple threat. We are working against organized crime. We are working against the sex industry. We are really in many many venues in the largest industry in the world which is the hospitality and travel industry. So we are encountering. We say blowback. I mean you know let's face it we've

been having these breakdowns. About this because we know we are really threatening. And it's important for us to be threatening. We have to have these breakdowns in order to have a breakthrough. And I think in in your wisdom your understanding you. You completely get it. I mean we are trying with this a level of resources to address organized crime. You know Asian Italian mafia it's Russian. It's in the. Exactly. And and that's the point. Exactly exactly and that's the last threat. They had those complicit. You know we like to diagram it in say we're taking care of the victims. That's the supply we're taking here of issues relating to the pimps and traffickers and the enforcement. But what we're not dealing with on the demand side of the Johns and lastly the enablers the

complicit the corrupt officials. And I'm not talking law you know law enforcement I'm talking broadly. And the corrupt corporations who are allowing it. So we have to get the people who are champions in each in every area. The peons that are our male champions that are going to help us on the demand side that are going to speak to young men that are going to mentor them. We need business mentors to help not only give an entrepreneurial chance to a young girl or training to a young girl but we need a corporation. To step up they're not going to market their goods based on this. That's going to say yes. We cannot have businesses involved with this. There are codes of ethics there is training in some companies about you can't use your travel money or if you have a convention mentality we're going to penalize you internally. We're going to report you. But we have a hotel concierge as we have hotel managers who freely give out

gifts just yet. It lists just like they do on Craigslist. Here's how we can get used to services tonight. And I mean I just thought Las Vegas is a prime example. Las Vegas even the mayor there. I mean you have a show girl on each arm. You know what I mean. When I was there the end of October right before election time. You know he's he's. You know on TV with a glass of champagne. You know what I mean and it's and when you walk down the street these people a pass and out cards. With women there are trucks going by dial this number are. For girls I mean all over the place so when you see some you know multi-billion dollar industries like Vegas people are getting paid to make that happen. There's there's a lot billions and billions of dollars that are lost.

You know and I like to say you know like a lot of the politicians they're getting paid to vote and keep these things going because it's money so if the pimp. You know we talk about him but he's the little guy. He's way down there. It's a much bigger bigger picture. So it's the people that can make the changes who are involved in the in the corruption. So. Just one mention of the thing and in this regard I just interviewed a detective His name is Mike Korea and he runs a Providence Rhode Island. Rhode Island Narcotics an organized crime unit and he's been he just busted a human trafficking ring. In Providence led by two 23 year olds to 23 other men from New York who basically set up an office in Providence run Providence College in order to have the women young girls pose as students. And.

One of the things that I found really fascinating about the story talked also about the origins of the indoor prostitution law and how it was pushed. Of you I don't know if you knew it or not but up until last year indoor prostitution in Rhode Island was all it was permissible and legal was a different question. But it was permissible and it led to what he believes to be a major human trafficking problem in Providence that they're just now putting a dent in. Not to I mean they have a long way to go but to put a dent in the trace a lot of which organized crime out of New York where women were being brought up from Manhattan largely Queens queens as sort of as some type of. Major headquarters for all of this for a lot of the traffickers. Anyway the point here is that. You know you're up against a major problem. When you arrest a. Pimps on one day. And the next day in the same block some of the students are having pimps

and hoes party. Off. In other words the reality. Is that these young women are being exploited right next to a home where students are are. Sealed. A pill for something that's funny. Of a whole is something that's funny. How do you change the language how do you change the mentality how to change the culture. What do you how do you get away from my right as something that is as that. And that is some of the core issues that you're dealing with when you're trying to put a dent in the in the popularisation if you will of human trafficking. My life my choice has actually we can't go into it with the younger students but we do go into middle schools which is very hard to do but we have managed we started after like alternative schools like time school you know the troubled school way we can get them in. But that's where we started. But now we are in a lot of the suburban Boston public

schools. I mean the inner city Boston public schools now the suburban schools that's the Tolly. Different story. But you know my experience has been as long as we're doing the work. The more places we are more schools that we go into the word gets around. You know I mean it may take a little longer but eventually. The suburban school here the work that has been done in the results of the work and hopefully we will get in there but is very difficult. To to bring this prevention work into the schools. And unfortunately for me there was there was I'm also a recovering addict. So I didn't get out of the role. You know a prevention program or survivor's program. I actually came out through going to treatment for substance abuse. And so I got my help

from from there. And. The the rule that I was told from the first time I entered treatment at each 20 and the last time at any age 30 they kept saying you can't go around people places and things. That's how I got out. You know I mean there is there is you know you from the Boston area. Yeah. We do. You're from the. We do have like for the women who are who have been struggling and who have made it out. My life my choice. We help them by bringing them into the group homes to speak as we bring a panel of women in to speak to the children to share their experience. And so we've helped a lot of women that way by them you know giving back. But there is really nothing out there for the adult that's struggling to get out. I think Sherry has a program.

For you know women. But as far as like this is not a dress really the way it should be. But for the children we have been able to get into the middle schools in this whole thing is really about training. Training training training training we have to change the thinking and we were fortunate enough to get into some schools and train people say they're not going to listen to what you're saying just based you know what I mean. But if you could bring just folks in the other train like the social workers the teachers who are working with the kids then a lot of times they will advocate and push for these things to happen. But we won't get in a school without. Changing the attitudes of the folks who work with the kids. I think it's going to be how we marketed to to educators and that it's going to fall under not just sucked sex health education issues but it's going to have to go into media literacy cyber safety training all those other areas. And just

quickly to say it's going to go in other venues because it's not going to get into the curriculum in schools so easily but we're looking at putting this and demand indication issues and respect for gender issues in the earlier grades through parochial schools through afterschool programs through juvenile depend to pension programs there. It's not just education for a traditional education setting. We'd love to talk to you later I'm sure. And Sherry's project Kim's project is working with you talk with. OK we ripped over this one. One of the questions. Inside barely. A. Lot your questions are good or that the question was. If if I thought that Michelle and my experiences Michelle's story was common or uncommon and if there's any sort of update on the work how she's doing. First question is I don't know if you guys recall the footage of the Los Angeles website of Department of Family and Child Services I like to always point that out again to people which should answer a question which is you have a hundred and thirty kids that are missing currently just in Los

Angeles County alone and there's only a hundred photographs that are on that website and those are the kids range from age three months to 17 years old. Now how can you find the child. Who's missing if you don't even have a photograph of them. And of all those children that are missing in Los Angeles County there's only about 5 percent that are actually reported into to the National Center Missing Exploited Children into the national criminal database which means nobody in law enforcement even knows they're missing. So there's a tremendous vulnerable population and my experience was that unfortunately. The foster care system is broken. I mean it's completely broken and the show was unfortunately. I came across many Michele's during the making of the film and to give you an update. I have I was in touch with her often when the film you know obviously during the making the film right were done and I lost track of her about a year ago and about 18 months ago she called me from Oakland and she had she was pregnant

again. She had been locked in an abandoned house by her new boyfriend aka her pimp. He had was trying to starve her to death he wanted to kill the baby. He had kicked her in the stomach a number of times locked her in the claws of this abandoned house and was not giving her any food or water she managed to get out and you know a shell of what you saw in the film was just a sliver of her life. I mean if we showed you anymore you just would have gotten up and walked out. We should do the bare minimum. And when she called me it was the first you know of all shes everything she's been through she was actually terrified. And she's like I need I need help I need somewhere to go and so an example of lack of resources is that I'm pretty resourceful and I spent two days on the phone and I have friends in San Francisco who work with different agencies and I could not the best thing I could find for her after 16 hours of phone calls was a hotel room in a area of prostitution in Oakland which is the worst place you know she can be just some seedy motel for one night and that's all I could find her not one bed available for her

nothing long term. And I actually called Portland Oregon I called the DA's office there and they technically didn't know anything I mean she was at that point 18 she was an adult. She was really a ward of the state of California before she turned 18. But they were actually amazing and they spent two hours on the phone they called me back in there we've got a bet for her. It's it was like a year and a half program that she had to commit to the 18 months they would pay for all of her medical expenses to have the child with her with them. And you know she couldn't work it was all about the treatment. So I you know I caught you know Michelle and I talked again and I was OK I found a bed for you on a 5 December school tomorrow and you know took her from the place where she was staying and we stayed in hotel the first night and I took her for intake the following morning at 9 o'clock it was like a three hour intake and I just waited. And after the intake the woman who ran the program came out and she was like you know I'm really sorry Michelle's decided not to take the bed. And you know you have to understand though this you know it's Arrested Development she may be

18 but she's really a 12 year old girl are less you know and in a woman's body and you know the reason for not taking the bed was that one of the rules that you could not use your cell phone for the first 90 days the program you know of course I said to Michelle who is that you so desperately need to call in the first 90 days and she just couldn't stand the thought it's akin to think back when you were a teenager and your mom said you can't use your phone for the weekend. You know that was just you were going to commit suicide so for her that was very traumatic. And so there's That's all I could do. You know the program was there she had to take that step to make the choices she chose not to. But I remember explicitly driving her back to her Argos her boyfriend's house. And I couldn't say anything because I was I was angry because I knew what was going you know. I knew what she was in store for. And and she said to me she goes it's OK if you hate me. She goes I was hated when I was I was born into hate when I came into this world which is how she felt and then I felt horrible because I didn't want to leave her with that you know. And obviously I don't hate her but

I try to explain that you know look I understand but I also feel like this is a chance for real. And so we stayed in touch she actually had the baby in September and we talked you know we were talking probably want to re couple of weeks and she sounded great and then just what happens with Michelle is you know go to call her number and it's disconnected. And then I call her orders number and his numbers disconnected and then their friend Felix his numbers disconnected. And unfortunately the friend of mine who is in the FBI who would always help me trucker when she went missing got moved. So I have no way of finding her unless she chooses to call me. So that was I do actually know I did find one police report that she was arrested again. This is probably eight months ago and she was in jail for three months and then you know got out again but that's that's the last word I have of her. You were actually worried something I was going to ask of a playground. Where else has it been shown and how is it being or is it on DVD obviousness and

DVD but I should say is it been shown for example to law enforcement social workers schools. Where exactly is it being shown. It's funny that you said that we we actually are trying to move into a campaign phase with the film where we can hopefully will do 100 cities we're going to start with 12 over a two year period rebuilding the structure of trainings and prevention programs and hopefully can can bring people along that are qualified to do these trainings. But right now we're still in the end of paying for clearances for the film and so we haven't done a public release but the film is already being used the National Center for Missing Exploited Children uses the film for internal training. We've done trainings with law enforcement. We did a training for 40 and 50 FBI agents in D.C. about seven months ago. Definitely being used for to forward legislation the bill that Karen referred to the federal bill that Maloney and Ron Wyden co-sponsored we did a screening at Barbara Boxer's house a year ago Senator Boxer of

California and those senators were there Senator Wyden and Durbin a few people and you know Senator Wyden walked out with. This bill or portions of this bill so I do think in terms of how the media can affect this issue and have impact just you know can have a tremendous effect and I hope that you know I'm not it's been seven years or eight years and this is you know Karen as you say this but this is sort of the beginning because you can't really walk away because at this point it is more of a it's a cause. And so I hope that we do Make it 200 to days or would be one sweep over there could be the basis for your next movie. What do I not lose lose sleep over these days. There's a I'm scared to commit to that right now but there's a few things that again I feel like I have I need to follow through with seeing this film through this campaign that's really important and then to pass it off to the appropriate parties to continue the movement but there but there are a number of things on the radar in a lot of them deal with most of them deal with youth

that have been marginalized in some way and so I want to commit fully to that but let's just say that yeah there are other projects in the works for the future what I lose sleep over. I mean you know a lot of things I lose sleep over. I'm trying to think right now I mean it's you know this issue I steal. I still lose sleep over the fact that we just have a long way to go. And sometimes that there are days that it feels. And I know everybody on this panel can relate to this in the audience that it feels really overwhelming and it's great to get a turnout like this. The festival again I'm so impressed that leash and Kate were able to put this together in a piece to huge success but this is not always what we get. There are plenty of times I've walked into a screening room and we've got five people and they're dedicated five people but it's five people in a theater of you know 200. So it's a long dedicated road to to see this through and I and I do leese lose sleep over that as I'm sure it's such a great question of what you it's going to do you

are trained to care of as well. I mean because I work so closely and one on one with girls. You know it's like every other week. There's some sort of crisis or a situation that one of my girls are in where I'm like tossing and turning trying to figure out like what can I do. To help this kid. Like what will really make a difference in a lot of times when I it's really overwhelming when I when I know I've done all that I can. And she's still struggling. You know or she's missing you know and when I I get to know them want to really personal level. And so when they're missing you know I already know the activity that they're involved in. And so it's like you know some of the you get really close to and it's like oh my god I know the danger that they are in and I've tossed and turned a lot of nights

worrying about these children. Again it is the missing you know you can imagine just knowing that. You know approximately where they are but you're trying to find them in a needle in a haystack. And the ones that we can't substantiate that are. With us for a long time but. We can't make the case against the offender. And Leslie just I think on the demand side just how many hearts and minds we really have to win over. And that we really have to be inclusive as possible in the army of people we really need to bring forward to move those people. Because we're not going to we're not going to enforce our way out of this on the pimp trafficker side. There's just not enough money resources in any way or we're really able to go against the organized crime and the sex industry and the travel and tourism industries. You know we really

need to win the hearts and minds. So I do have some literature about what men can do and an e-mail address if you want. The steps that citizens that want to become more active can do. We'd love to talk to you afterwards. Thanks. Thank you.