Education and Race Relations; Introduction and Overview: Implications For The School; 2

We have three distinguished panel members at this session of course two of the outstanding state commissioners of education are among our guests Dr. James Allen Commissioner of Education at New York State and Dr. Owen Kynan commissioner of education in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. Both have been actively engaged in improving race relations through education. In addition we have Mr. James Tanah assistant to the superintendent of schools in Cleveland Ohio as our third guest. And as with every session I have my co-moderator. DR JOHN GIBSON of the Lincoln filing center at Tufts University at the first session of our cause i defined and limited our focus. And I outlined 15 or 16 observations of our premises. Underlying our approach to our problem. Dr. Gibson where do you want to start the discussion while you are signed up for essays.

Underlining our approach to the problem and we're concerned in this series of 28 programs with education and race relations and the thought that ran across my mind is what is the relationship between education on the one hand and race relations on the other hand. You're suggesting that it might not be the proper business of the school. I certainly am aware of the fact that it is a role for the schools to play. But on the other hand education is one thing. Race relations in our society might well be another thing Dr. Kiernan as a state commissioner of education. What do you see to be the connecting links between education are the substance of education. I'm not going to narrow this down to the three R's obviously but in the educational process what obligation is to educate. Does education really have for the improvement of race relations in our society. That's a big question. But I do think we have to show some connective tissue here. It's in the $64 category. There's no question about that. It would seem to me that our schools have a dual role. And I think there have be general agreement on

this point. First to stabilize and perpetuate and preserve society as we know it. And we're concerned of course with a democratic society. But secondly and rather important the school should serve as an agent for change. This frankly is one spot I think we've lagged somebody over the years. And when we see in this society certain defects certain deficiencies the school does have a responsibility to move in. Now there are citizens who would suggest that the institution remain academic high on the hill behind the community and that perhaps those of us in the field of education that place the academic told around our shoulders and not concern ourselves with these problems of society. There are others who would argue that as far as race relations are concerned this is a socioeconomic situation that has nothing to do with education. And yet the somewhere the breakthrough has to be made. I was particularly interested in Dr. covariances his first lecture in which he

said that education. Truly is the key that will lead people out of the woods so to speak in terms of these problems develop their hopes and aspirations to the point of real implementation not just lip service but something happening here. Well the fact is that education is of society not a pie. It's not a party that can't separate itself from the social problems of the day. Therefore the present problem of race relations discrimination segregation and so on but we care so much about is very much a responsibility and a concern of the schools of education generally. Certainly I think Commissioner Allen is correct. Certainly as Shakespeare might have said not a thing apart. But truly this is a this is the core of society and the breakthroughs will have to be made in our educational system. I tried to define education as a product in terms of the changes in behavior modification of behavior. If we change

the behavior of the masses of children perhaps it will be possible to change the way of life and change the social structures you imply obviously the school becomes a kind of an anachronism if all it does is transmit the heritage and does not come to grips with the world of reality. We've heard two state commissioners on this. I think Mr. Katter might have something to say on behalf of a major city school system Cleveland. What do you see the relationships in Cleveland between education and race relations that race relations as part of the substance of education. A school system that does not treat and does not deal with. Race relations and other kinds of problems of human relations is violating are at least not performing a very major part of its job. By that I mean as part of the curriculum there ought to be consideration of the major social issues of this day and in the past we've too often the schools have been sort of

custodians of the past and haven't engaged themselves in what's going on today either by studying it or by attempting to change it. You're suggesting that of the content of the curriculum in other words the courses that are being presented to students have maybe in times past ignored the problems of race relations in our society past and present. There's no question about this. Now that was one of the responsibilities of a school certainly is the development of proper attitudes among youngsters. And this obviously is one of the underlying ways that is changing attitudes underlying ways to improve race relations relationships and in L.A. to see what the proper attitude is. Will schools let's say in Mississippi and Alabama and one set of attitudes and let's say your schools in New York sell another set of attitudes. How do we get around this. Well I think we have a long way to go here to change attitudes in some communities some areas of the country. The problem will be

relatively easy in others where there has been long deep. Discrimination. And attitudes that do not. Concern themselves with good relations. Race relations is going to be much more difficult. It's not something that you can do. I think for some simple pattern spread over all of the schools it's going to have to be dealt with in each community and each school. Each teacher. Well an attitude has a propensity or an inclination toward some kind of value or behavior I suppose and some people might argue whether the schools really should be involved. In this kind of affective domain and this kind of value or attitudinal change. Don't you think Dr. Vera says that this is a real debatable question as to whether the schools and the school teacher who might be involved in this series should be concerned with attitudinal or evaluation or change

so as to well alter their behavioral pattern of students with whom the teacher comes in contact. I would see attitude as being closer to behavior and therefore I would plug for more emphasis on attitudes in view of the initial definition I've taken of learning as a as a product. But I think basically the question is which set of values. Knowing something about differences in feeling and tone and history and tradition according to geography I would suggest is what we mean by geography. Well in terms of are we talking about this in the north or in the south or in Los Angeles or wherever we may be because it may be that there's consensus in let's say Alabama that one set of attitudes is what the school should teach. There might be consensus in the north that the opposite set of values I would like to suggest is a basic criteria in solving this particular difficulty. The notion that a fundamental principle that we operate on is this

basic humanism in which we believe that there's no such thing as human rubbish and that there is prestige to every human being. And secondly that we operate on the premise of the scientific method. I tried to look at race very briefly at the first session in terms of what is race and separateness and so on looking to an answer in terms of what the research says in the distribution of traits in the allegedly separate racial groups. And it seems to me that if we can hold firmly to these fundamental principles one that there is no such thing as human rubbish too that if we can get consensus through scientific method that perhaps we can have a more agreement in terms of than the kinds of people we want and the attitudes that we develop. But you said the teacher is. And we all know that instructional materials in some way automatically discriminate against minority groups.

And I think you are aware of this Mr. Tanner because you are deeply involved of course in your school system in Cleveland and I suppose is as you view instructional materials in many cases the kinds of pictures students see and the kinds of old written words that they are exposed to in the learning process seem to deal with a rather lily white society in the United States and you yourself said on the first program that many teacher is inclined to view members of minority groups as people who are almost automatically inferior and therefore not able to keep up or keep pace with the learning process or the curriculum. And if education and race relations are to be combined in our society it seems to me that both in attitudes of teachers and in the content of instructional materials that a real job has to be done here. You see this in Cleveland certainly the. And on the matter of teacher attitudes seems is the. Whatever of the subject matter that the teacher may be concerned with. His attitude is going to show through. Even if he's a let's say mathematics this is fairly pure.

Usually I guess this is new math new math knowledge. It's intermediate math new and old. I don't understand the new math. All right. In the old Matthew if a teacher's attitude is as you suggested one of indifference or of sympathy or of antagonism toward certain of his pupils this is going to show through in his teaching and in his expectations of those pupils and the students feel that's right and the students are going to feel a bit teacher's own attitude has added up to a list of things. Absolutely. And if this doesn't become part of I guess maybe we're talking largely about teacher preparation are either the teacher preparation through his formal instruction or his own preparation of himself for the for the job of teaching. Looking at his attitudes and assessing them properly in terms of how he feels about the youngsters whom it's his responsibility to teach the then the Commonwealth of Massachusetts commission we can and there is a report called the Canon

report that attempts to get at factors related to the cultural imbalance in schools and let's say more equality of educational opportunity for the negro youngster. Other groups do want to make a comment on how the report got started. What this has to do with the problem that Mr Tanner is talking about what is the Canon report. Actually was the case and we can report. That that also is a very excellent question and it comes back to the original query that was thrown out as we opened this second session. What is the role of the state. What is the role specifically of the State Department should we concern ourselves with the problems of major cities in this particular Commonwealth and in the. School systems perhaps in other parts of the nation. Or is this something that should be best left to the local authority that they know best what should be done about the ghetto

conditions in a given section of the city. There had been an impasse here in the Commonwealth here in Massachusetts. It had reached the point where some authority and we think logically we're coming back now that the the constitutional structure of this nation of ours through the medium of the 10th Amendment of course education is not listed as a federal responsibility or function becomes automatically a state function. Logically the State Board of Education had to move in to see if they could resolve this particular problem which was becoming increasingly critical particularly in our capital city but rather than do it ourselves it was the feeling that we should lean heavily on the community so that the State Board of Education and the only reason it happened is to carry the name of the speaker is that he served as chairman of the group but we called upon 21 very very distinguished citizens from all walks of life leaders in the major faiths

leaders and industry business several professions individuals who had rich experience in government and teachers and teachers individuals who had the contact in the classroom and knew the conditions and some of the poorer sections of the city came together and took a hard look at this. They work under from one of our foundations for 12 months and then publish the document under the title we think rather appropriately under this title because it's right. Educationally we have since incidentally developed a summary spec the spectrographic type of summary I believe we've included that and I hope you have Sillett something that could be read very easily what is right educationally commissioning. Well this is the conclusion that the 21 members reached that there is the imbalance that it makes no sense in the society of AIs to have schools which are broken down by lives and then we went after the second question perhaps even more significant. Assuming you do have the ghetto school that

is obviously imbalanced is it harmful. And we did dig into this very comprehensively and I think we have the documentation to prove conclusively that the hopes and aspirations of these young people the academic achievement the opportunities for adequate guidance for the remedial and enrichment programs that should indicate that the school system in a particular school is moving forward. Some of these lakhs became very apparent and it was obvious that the youngsters were being short changed so that the committee then came in with a set of recommendations and rather significantly on the 18th of August 1965. The first imbalance act of its kind in the nation was signed by the governor in our historic hall of flags this mandates that there shall be no imbalance in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. I hope that this will be picked up nationally and that sister states also will fall in this direction.

Let's move over to New York state where you really have a giant sized problem Dr. Allen. What is the parallel in New York State. Well we have been concerned about this problem for a number of years. In 1961 the New York state border regions developed a policy. Analysis that it was the policy of the state to eliminate racial imbalance in the schools. And since that time we have sought to help local communities all the way from New York City to smaller communities in the state where. The problem exists to work out the. Patterns of district organization or school organization. Other arrangements that would eliminate the racial imbalance. We see the problem with us is twofold. One is the question of desegregation in the schools. This is an administrative problem and relatively easy. All we have to do is decide we want to do it. The more difficult problem is the educational aspect which

involves the teaching of integration and it's full meaning. This is a major focus. That's right. This is a big part of our plan because that desegregation may concern only a few places in New York City or in New York state relatively larger cities. Integration is of concern to every teacher every school wherever there is a. Community in the northern part of our state where there are no negroes. We believe that the teachers must be concerned with teaching of human relations and about integration and the importance of human dignity no matter what the color of one's skin. But it's seems that we're driving in two directions. It seems to me there's a tremendous distance between teacher in classroom and state department in Albany or in Boston. How do we bridge the gap. What is the relationship between teacher State Department State Department and teacher on this issue. Well.

There is often times at least physically certainly and in many many other ways a great distance here. However as I sit in my office I know that nothing that I can or can do to improve education can be done except in the classroom. I oftentimes think about nine o'clock in the morning. And when the doors are closed in thousands of classrooms in New York state there's not a thing I can do. It depends upon the teacher. My job is to see to it that the teacher has been well-prepared has the materials to work with in this particular instance has the has the curriculum materials the readings that will help her understand him understand the problem or race relations in my department produces materials that we make available to the classroom teacher that we produce teaching aides of various kinds. We have conferences with teachers on human relations. My department has a division on intercultural relations and a staff that is

constantly working not just with the administrators in the schools but going into community and into regions and holding conferences with teachers little boys reverse this lets me get Mr. Tenet to say something about the receiving end. Well before we get over that Dr. versus if I may be so bold as to intrude upon your question in the United States as you well know the role of state Department of Education varies a good deal as among the states and some states have done a great deal of work in preparing these kinds of materials that Dr. Allen and Dr. Karen have talked about. Other states have not taken these kinds of initiatives that are awfully important. I just want to have this as an intervening statement before we get to Mr. Tanner because I think here is a gentleman on the line in a city with a large minority group population not only Negro and I take it that your concern in Cleveland is not only with the Negro population but with the many national groups in Cleveland who are also a part of the great

American mosaic who have children who go to public schools. We're just as concerned and as I think we ought to be that for the most part now the instructional materials which we have used don't talk about the Schmitt's they don't talk about the Epstein's nor do they talk about society around who may happen to be Negro. We are a city which used to be called a city of tents because it was one tenth Italian one tenth German. Well it the really the the ratios have changed somewhat now. We probably have about half our youngsters half our school enrollment negro. At this point we don't know this because we don't keep any records by race. But on this matter of of the production of materials and whatnot it seems to me that the teacher has a very real and a big job to do in the adaptation and in bringing into use the kinds of materials which are now lacking for instance our major publishers. Are derelict are not derelict certainly have not done nearly as much as needs to be done in the production

commercially of materials I know of one series which is somewhat like the traditional that has put the Negro family symbolically in the back of the book. I know another I have a back of the boxes and I try like the back of a bus I have an interesting experience during the summer of 65. There's this thing in a certain deep south state just about the deepest south state. And I guess we have and I heard a representative of one of the book companies plugging the Bank Street greeters which are integrated in all of their pictures and everything else about them. But this particular lady was not plugging the fact that these books were integrated but that they showed how culturally deprived all the people were in the north. And since we didn't have that problem here in this state it may be part of the dream for our children to get hold of and learn. But. The whole business of helping teachers of giving them releasing what I think is a great creative potential on the part of teachers. And I believe

that most administrators want teachers to be as creative as they can be in adapting and in using general guidelines. Yes but in using materials that are relevant to the particular group of youngsters who they now happen to have and as a doctor and then suggest this does not mean that if a teacher happens to have a group of youngsters who are completely white who are completely Italian and we have some sections of Cleveland where just about all the youngsters would be of Italian descent that we do not then help them to teach their youngsters about the total fabric of America that is woven and of which the country as well. I was at a conference recently in which it was stated that one of the problems was the fear of teachers in dealing with the coming integration in the schools and desegregation of the school. There's is a better racial balance. It's just a problem in

Cleveland. It is our teachers seem to lack in some instances as it was implied here at indirect to teachers who lack confidence in knowing and dealing with it. How do you overcome this. I think a great many teachers do and I believe that one of the ways to overcome it is to eventually as referred to in his first session the business of Reyher and wider associations among teachers with other kinds with people other than people like themselves. Certainly as a starting point or as one early point in the business of helping teachers to overcome this fear which I think many of them do have. And I think this film works both ways of Negro teachers teachers who happen to be Negro may have the same kind of apprehension about going into non Negro schools as do not Negro teachers have about coming into schools that are predominantly Negro in enrollment. And I think that the more we get together the the better we will all the and we

have made several efforts in Cleveland and then certainly other places and in the Midwest to have teachers get together more widely and associate more we use all this year we in the summer of 65 and starting in the spring we used about 500 teachers on various kinds of committees and we deliberately chose teachers on as wide a spectrum as we could to get them to associate with each other. But we're hoping is serious that some of the things that are specialists are going to come up with Dr. Allenwood try to generate a feeling of confidence. Dr. Thomas Pettigrew is going to talk about the nature of prejudice during our next sessions and I think that as we try to develop a series for teachers we will hopefully give them some feeling of confidence in handling some of the subject matter. But I'd like to get back to a point that doc raised in the first session and that was the idea of the hidden curriculum and I wish that you would explore this a little more because in the area of education and race relations we're not only concerned with what happens in the

school but I sort of got from your present fancy a word. Well I used the word subliminal subliminal Yes I like the hidden curriculum a little better because it's an awfully big word for you I know and I know some of us don't really have it and I wish you would explain the hidden curriculum because we're going to hear me say that every I see every school is having a curriculum for example in the city of Boston there was a Boston Latin School which has quite a tradition. You go to this school and it's obviously implicit that you're going to go to college or maybe Harvard or an Ivy League college in Dallas Tufts. Well hopefully if you get in. The let's say that there is a way of life in this school. Thank him for that. No commercials. Let's say there was a way of life in a school that enables you to tell you how to behave how not to behave and you get certain status and prestige. Now there might be two colleges an adult teacher culture and

youth culture to be sure. But there are for example the unusual thing about American schools it seems to me as I would compare them with at least say in France or other European schools is the fact that boys and girls do everything together there is sex across the activities and this provides a kind of boy meets girl type of thing. And then we have I think you know in our schools a great deal of what some people say permissiveness and freedom I see this pretty much as an external kind of controlled environment which most youngsters are told what to do when to do it how to do it and whether it's right when it's done. It's a peculiar kind of culture in which a clock rings every 15 minutes or 45 minutes everybody gets up in the high school junior high school carries the books to another place they sit down and there's a kind of staccato beat the clock kind of learning. The I think every school ought to take a look at the way of life. Now this is like the law part of the

iceberg that has a great deal of influence on whether the youngster stays in school or leaves school. As you know there is an end to school saying and thinking Well as soon as I am of age I'll quit and others say Oh I'll stay and I'll go on to college. But I think we need to explore. It might be something that some of us schools my principals and teachers might want to explore. What is the nature of the hidden curriculum if you will. I think one of the psychiatrists that we probably will have on the program we'll talk a little bit about I think Dr. Thomas kirtan deputy commissioner of education in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts is going to talk about co-curricular and extracurricular activities that might develop ways of racial learning experiences with jump over them. I wonder if I if. Regarding this hidden curriculum if it isn't of such importance that let's just assume now that the group of teachers and the commissioner is very fine

schools here in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts are being very complementary. Oh I try to be I'm a guest and I try to act like one. But let's assume that a group of teachers says Fine we believe that this may be true in our school now. How do we go about finding out what it is in this school. Or is the subject of a later session that's one way to postpone this discussion. And the question in terms of finding out from that comparison yes. Right. Pluses and minuses associated with this concept. Certainly some of the traditions at Boston Latin School as an example are to be commended. There may well be others that perhaps long since should have been discarded like the attrition rate and survival. And not a matter of and I think rather appropriately editor Ralph McGill refers to the dead hand of tradition and yet I would caution clammy. I would also caution the administration that perhaps there are two extremes here. The Chinese philosophers have the right answer

but there are two types of fools. The first who would say this is old Therefore it is good. The second who would say this is new Therefore it is better. Now there must be a mix in here somewhere. And would you just say a word about some of the pluses and minuses of this hidden curriculum. Well you know you can enter a school in let's say in many countries you can enter a certain kind of vocational school you can almost smell the way of life in which almost. Well someone will present the numbers. The physical education department especially to say you say. You enter the building and from the damage statuary that's around then the stuff on the floor you can see what the evaluation system consists of. And from the movements in the corridors from the policing monitoring that might go on in another school you might see a lot of student government and Operation places a lot

cleaner. There's a certain emotional climate that you can identify rather readily. Now I mentioned that the first session the need for a social analyst as a kind of person that might be employed. And then I have a feeling that this is a kind of a cross between a sociologist and maybe a cultural anthropologist who would have the duty to try to help staff analyze and identify the forces that work in the school that operate to develop a way of life. I think Dr. Harlesden of a psychology department Tufts University is going to focus on this point in a I believe so later program in the series. And also Mrs. Barnett of the New York City school system is going to be concerned with the whole area of motivation and what happens to these people when they get out of school. So a lot of the things we're touching on right now obviously are going to be taken up later and we do cover this point somewhat.

I think I pursued it as far as I could in the Negro self-concept and I think we're here is where we need your teacher who herself being a you know school dweller will have a great deal to contribute. I think she'll she'll catch Mr. Tanner's point about the teacher being able to use the materials that have been prepared and many of which come out of the state offices of education many of which come out of curriculum departments of local school systems and also other organizations and other organizations. And then probably you know from publishing companies and institutions of higher education and also the instructional materials. And yet it seems to me that in many school systems. A lot of teachers are very apprehensive about being innovative or captivating on some of the new ideas or some of the old ideas in terms of improving race relations within the framework of that classroom door or behind that classroom door which closes at 9 o'clock in the morning and I. How do you get around this problem of a teacher who is afraid of the administrator or the

superintendent the principal the local Board of Education the state commissioner of education. Pardon. The children the children who might say gee we're getting some jazz in the school or that just Israel while Daddy and I want you to go down and talk to the super town about this. I think we're talking about. A kind of teacher more than we of whom we have more than we now realize we're talking about a teacher who's found a courageous teacher who is himself pretty comfortable in handling this kind of material which may be by some regarded as controversial and I suspect that a good deal more of it goes on when the door gets closed at 9 o'clock than never gets told about because of some of the teachers feeling that I know this is right I'm doing it I'm doing it because I want to and because I know what's right. But dare I tell the man down in the office because he might not approve it. So what we're probably saying here is that school administrators at the local level

at the principal level as Christie has pointed out in his initial session. The principal is a key he needs to give teachers the support he needs to say to teachers and be encouraged by superintendents and by state departments to say to teachers this is what you not only may do this is what we would like you to do. That's very true because we we made a study in New York state two or three years ago about the. About what factors make for change in the school. And one of the barriers to change handicaps was the administrator if the administrator set the climate for change whether it be at the state level or the local level or the principal superintendent. So if he accepts the climate the teacher will then. Move right forward. Often times make the changes I feel confidence about. But if he holds back and want to encourage the teachers and have some

fear that this will not she will not be measured properly if she moves and you don't think that getting a synonym is mixed up here. Are we thinking that all change is improvement. No no no. We will. It sounds as though we are changing to a better school. Could we change to the feeling that Mr. Tanner was asking for a little academic elbow room to feed the ammunition the necessary materials the innovative suggestions he reverse to the teacher. You need to expand that have support down the line so that this person does have the album if necessary. Well you know I've had the experience in the summer of 64 running a workshop for teachers of disadvantaged youngsters and I sense the feeling on the part of these 60 teachers that they wanted us to tell them what to do. And the idea was that I think there was some disappointment in this workshop saying that here we are. Tell us what innovative you know experiences we could devise that we're looking for rest or do you expect. Well I'm afraid.

They came to study with you and other experts. Why don't you explain I'm afraid that somehow or other we have taught these people that we have the sequence and the prescriptions and the answers and they come in with that mindset. And I think the time is here. They want to we want to say yes when we must say to teachers look we'll give you the elbow room and we have the confidence in you go ahead and try new adaptations but take some time to try to keep an eye on what you suggested experiment. Meaning let's see what's happening. Let's revise. Let's try it out again. Let's check it out. And we keep but he. We get clues as to what their teachers and their teachers and a good many teachers have a great many obligations like collecting money for all kinds of goody goody things and so forth. What does a teacher have the time to develop new materials and develop innovative approaches to teaching about race relations. I think that they are going to have to rely continually upon work done by the State Departments of Education and by their curriculum supervisors and so forth.

I mean I don't think I'd have to suggest here that the greater involvement there is by the teacher in the development of these materials are more likely to be used. Right. And yes they do. Teachers now do go to workshops and they go to summer courses and they go to institutes and they're looking for the experts like a very seasoned company too and a lot of recipes will tell you a great cookbook. Do it this way and you will achieve magnificent results. But I think that what probably happens as a result of these institutes and workshops is that teachers go away with a great great deal more confidence than they came with or that you can say they develop an immunity I may do that too. I think you're right with a great deal more confidence and do indeed it takes a while I think maybe a few months for them to realize that they have been given a booster shot or maybe an initial nose. But what can you say though that if a teacher felt that he or she were inadequate in handling education race relations that he or she could take some initiative and ask the school

system itself in conjunction with the State Department of Education to develop in-service education work and the development of materials that would be a little bit more meaningful in other words there ask Who's he could ask his school system to do this he can ask his principal that you see I have a feeling that a teacher who feels uncomfortable about this is not very adequate as a teacher anyway. Here's a place where the state can be of some help. In New York. We have some funds. For experimentation which can be used by teachers to explore develop them develop new materials explore different ways of doing things. We wanted to recognize the fact that the teacher in the classroom public schools could do some research and have some funds with which to play. We have found this is one of the ways in which the state can encourage bring the teacher more into through relationship with the state in which the state can really play a role in innovation.

Among teachers. Yes but I think Mr. Tanner hit the nail on the head really. When he said that the teacher who feels uncomfortable in trying to cope with the problem of education and race relations really has some shortcomings as a teacher himself or herself is a very very profound statement because Dr. versey if you'll recall at the end of Negro self-concept implications for school and citizenship one of our people who participated in the conference which produced this book said that education race relations really is a problem of American democracy itself is an integral part of American education. It is a meaningful attribute of American society to trace the development of cultural diversity and cultural assimilation in America and a teacher who in the social studies or in the handling of citizenship in the classroom overtly tries to ignore the problem of education or race relations says a. I would say a sick teacher and a person to say certainly know the strongest that there's one other thing though that I certainly hope that we don't

overlook here. And I presume that it will be taken care of also in a subsequent discussion that is that this whole business of race relations and education must not we must not overlook. The improvement of the quality. Of education improvement of the process. Too often we get wrapped up in things other than the basic improvement and making education better wherever it happens to be for youngsters and that's a very important statement. Very good thing to keep in mind because so many people think that our concern with desegregation with race relations is merely a concern to mix youngsters for mixtures sake. Right. And unless we can improve education for both whites and negroes in this effort to desegregate it we're not going to achieve the objective. One of the encouraging features today is new interest and I'm using new and in a relative sense on the part of citizens

insisting on quality education again remaining fairly close to their schools and wanting something done about those gaps and shortages and deficiencies that you might find in a given school system. And so to the state and so to the federal government this partnership must be effective but not that I would wish to in any way blow the states on. But I'd like to come back to an earlier comment that the state truly is the responsible agency and there must be a beefing up the state not handing directives down from on high to the teachers but rather giving them the information and the materials and the ammunition they need to do the job and to lift the quality of education. It seems to me that's subjective glad that you and Dr. Howard stressed this because many teachers doing this series and many local school administrators I'm sure don't recognize all the potentials that the State Department of Education now have today and all the resources they have to help in innovative and meaningful programs and education race relations through the State Department. You're going to be funneling a great deal of funds. Would you say that you have more money than

ideas. Or more ideas and money. No I wouldn't say that we have more money than I do is. What about you. We have a dearth of both. I think in a way. I think the fiscal dearth would be far more apparent as far as the Commonwealth is one of the things that you mention the attitude of the teachers oftentimes toward the State Department so I'd like to say that basically the teachers and the local school officials are really a part of the state education system. Their agency state. I think this is a good note on which we might conclude the second session. I think we ought to think to good commissioners from New York and one from Commonwealth of Massachusetts and Mr. Tanah from Cleveland. And again thank you John for your assistance as well. Second meeting