Say Brother; Afro-Studies: Why So Many Barriers?; 917

Say brother showed 917 Afro studies why do so many berries. Oh why so many berries GBH TV Boston. And.

Good evening. Bari Ghani Welcome to say brother. Tonight's program is titled Afro studies why so many barriers. We will explore the history growth and current status of Afro-American heritage programs at three Boston area universities Harvard Northeastern and Boston University. Our objective is to establish a case and then eating some of the perpetual institutional obstacles placed upon Afro studies programs from their inception. Through a series of interviews conducted by Joyce Rivera. We would hope to present information that will spark continued support for the expansion and enrichment of universities subsidize Third World Heritage programs. Dr. Joe Durley a noted historian begins this evening's program. With a look at Afro-American

Studies in retrospect. Dr. Gurley the myth of Afro-American Studies is. That. It was an invention of the late 60s and it was discovered by white institutions is that true. Now and I'm glad that you chose the term myth because all too often in the field of higher education particularly black people are concerned the myths are still prevalent. And. The education as far as black you'd like to say has never been. Down to a shadow a 968 because of the demands made by many of the college students black college students on the dummy white college campus there was a need to fill that vacuum or that void because of the many misrepresentations or the myths that have been perpetrated in higher education has put out a white college campus. So the myth as you put it is just that because education among black people is a culture. The

language the history has always been an integral part of the overall educational pattern. As much as when to say yes when to say no when to say thank you. Understanding who you are what you are about what you're doing where you're going what just taken for granted. So there was no need to set up a black studies department of black studies program a major in Black Studies a major in Afro-American history. James Weldon Johnson doesn't even need to brawl and many great writers. It was an integral part of the lifestyle so it was a part of that so now it started many many years ago in fact it was even organized officially in about nine hundred fifteen but much much right it started a long time before that northeastern has a unique situation there the Afro-American Institute preceded the Afro-American Studies department while in other schools the department came first verity of brown and Gregory Ricks. Explain how this occurred. OK. I'll just briefly say that the insitu is sort of the mother of the two institutions. The ensign the African-American

Studies Department was born out of the African-American Institute. It was fully accredited in 1973. Prior to that it existed for five years but it was free to the community and the students who opted to take courses in a state that did not receiving credit. Gregor Poppy give you more background information as to how it all came about who was involved in the founding of the state. The background I would say that. The source. That brought about the. African reference to his was African Studies Department or program as it was formally called. I was especially. 25 tell to black students that was boarded by the Ford Foundation. That came to Northeastern. And 1966 57. And. These 25 students were very strong academically. They could have basically went to school anywhere in the country. But historically

the doors to higher education in only white institutions in the north have been pretty much closed to black students but for the first time this is the Northeastern University receive some. Funding from the Ford Foundation to in fact recruit and support 25 minority students. These students came to Northeastern and why they were here they made. Some demands on the institution. That. Things such as 10 percent of the student population. Of the entire universe should become black and they should develop programs to begin to meet that kind of and that kind of a quota. Or whether in quota we use the term goal. You know that kind of a goal that there should be a program in African-American studies and we should begin to offer services to community residents. If you live around the universe because the universe is expanding taking people's property in this kind of stuff they should give something back to the community rather than just take from it. So a lot of these kinds of concerns were brought forth by the students as again as I mentioned did come from the Ford Foundation funding. In

1967. Many of the demands and concerns for the program matic concerns on the campus were on paper they were paper concepts that the university was very slow to respond to. But in 1968 on this fascination of Dr. King a lot of these paper concepts became realities overnight. This happened here as well as other parts of the of the country. And then in 1969 the African-American is to was born. On the. First Street which is a block away from here it was a suite of rooms in a building. Where students basically has a place to hang out a place to get away from quote the masses of whites to get along and around ourselves it was a room that was furnished with African. Fabric and drums in the literature that was laying around just a place to feel comfortable with our own and even though there were very very few of us here at the time it was a blacks. And then there was a program doesn't mention African-American studies these these programs these courses offered through the program. Were offered to the community and students to students for no

credit. It was an accredited program. Many of the professors. Are the people that instructors in the program were community residents people that a lot of skills but they didn't have quote the traditional unquote skills and responsibility and credentials that the university required in terms of its own faculty appointment schedules and those kinds of things. But they did have outstanding abilities as far as I'm concerned that they had just as much ability and skills as many the professors on campus have but they just don't have that magic piece of paper. So that's why it was a program and that's why it was a noncredit. The feeling was the blacks felt for their own edification of course were important and the community people at the time the feeling was they didn't need academic credit for this kind of instruction. So it remained a program. Until 1973 in 1973 after the tremendous work ended. Who was a professor here that worked with me when I first came to the INS to 1970 to her was she was the vanguard in terms of those provide the leadership for the The Black Studies accreditation

of the making actually Department. And all this came to fruition in 1973 in April and since then it's been a department that struggled. Continuously and there were a lot of reasons that very I can speak to in Dr. Wood who's going to speak later. Speak to it suffers from the many the same kind of programs today. I think that the critical thing that one needs to know in terms of how we're different. George from many of the other institutions in the area is that we've linked up very much with a community that is to say a lot of the impetus for our program came from the community to the university rather than from the university back to the community. So that linkage has always been there. Also our addresses roster and we like to say that you know some people like to say that the front door is a fun way. But the real front door is the Roxbury Community. And when you live daily and you look out your windows as we are today you know into Mission Hill into lower Roxbury into into Highland Park in the fort we're reminded every day where we are what our responsibility is so I feel that. Even though we struggle tremendously here in northeaster we've had a little bit easier.

Than some of our system brothers at Harvard and be you in D.C. because we're home. You know we're in Roxbury and I. Want to go for students at Northeastern and want to be found Institute. Could you could you tell us what it was like back in those days. The mid 60s when Ifirst and Northeastern. There was just a shadow of blackness there specifically there were very few black students. There were no. Programs nothing structurally that would assist black students as far as their needs and directions for the five years ago were spent in Northeastern. I first charges we sorry 25 students that were there. Under the Ford Foundation scholarship. My first charge was to formulate some type of organization that would address our needs while we were students at their school. I addressed them not in the absence of looking at

the community from which we came and addressed them in a way that would like us to their community. And so we began that in the mid 60s and it culminated in the formulation of. Necessity. Not a part of. It. I was the I was the movement at that time by those students to establish the answers received by the university. Well they made some concessions. University they were faced with the student body particularly the black student body that was. Very much disturbed about the. Lack of ideological integrity on the part of the faculty. Specifically the faculty senate. There were. No courses. In which there was a direction for black students to look at their history their understanding as a people nationally or internationally locally. Well certainly they want the kind of concepts in those

courses that allowed us the intellectual freedom to explore who we were and where we're going to go. Within the next decade or within this century. So. The university didn't make a concession it wasn't something that they. Sort of foresaw. And they're all saying no we pressured them into a situation where they were. Going to look at. Options that they felt comfortable with and establishing an African American Institute. There was a lot of negotiations. We ended up with a structure that we were very satisfied. DR Would you recently come over to the northeast and perhaps share with us your responsibilities. Yes as the dean and director of the African-American Institute I have the responsibility as a chief executive officer of the institute to plan and implement a range of academic and support programs cultural and social for our black students here at Northeastern University and of course.

The doors open for others I guess who might value what we do. You've been in Boston for a good while and you've seen many programs such as this one come and go I'm sure. Could you share with us perhaps your opinions of how predominately white institutions in the area have created programs to deal with the study of the black experience. One of the reasons that I'm excited about being here at Northeastern University is that I find the contrast in what I view at this point as the commitment of Northeastern University to cherishing and valuing the black experience of a major white university. Most of the universities in the Boston area as I hear it and some more than others have decided that they want to go on to some of the fad now. But we're determined at Northeastern that the black experience is not a fad it's here it's going to stay and we're going to deepen it and broaden it make it serve our students as they come here to make sure that more of our students will graduate who do in fact come into

the university because one of the problems is that black students have been recruited often but seldom graduated in many many major Universo that they're in a revolving door as it were. We're determined that there shall not be the loss of one when our program is fully as we now envision it operational. What's the relationship between the department and the institute. Fantastic now. Growing together I think the way we have been in the past. We started the Afro-American Studies Department initially started out as an academic program within the African-American Institute. And in 1973 we became an autonomous Department. And because of that there were there was a lot that had to be worked out about because now we're two autonomous units How did we function and could we function as one. When should we do so much and. It's taken us a couple of years to work that through I think and now we're at the point where we

do see ourselves as one unit although we operate a separate units. And in terms of our mission here on the university in terms of our commitment. To. A Northeastern University student to the black students we see ourselves operating as one unit here. To provide whatever we can in terms of educational services. The relationship has been through the library which. The African American Library supports the African-American studies department with all kinds of resources books films. Because in the African-American African. I guess it should be clarified too that the studies that offer courses. In African studies Caribbean studies but of course that's all tied into the African-American experience. Also this. Is another part of that George which is a. Kind of conceptual design early on when. Professor It was here and we've talked about that.

Extensively. Here's what the role of the problem would be versus the as to how they support each other and we used to say I think you very may remember this in early days is that. You know you take you get their minds together. OK you know you do that in this in studies department in terms of research and. And the whole academic matter and skills skill of that whole kind of thing and we all will support it in terms of toil and well-motivated in terms of counseling and will provide the cultural piece in terms of how that gets transferred and used in this culture and together. Your department and the institute are just as important and that's very clear to the students. So it's almost like you know you take care of the technical piece and we'll take care of the social political cultural place which we feel is total education and last it was neat. One thing that has changed though I think very it brings this out which is which is which is very important her remarks and that is where students are really being prepared adequately last students that don't take African-American studies courses and don't

take after Maria's studies course especially if they don't we're going to urban areas. I mean you know Washington's 80 percent black Cleveland 70 percent black lots and 60 percent. Here you just go all around the country for your major urban centers. Just very very heavily minority in this and the Spanish population is growing all the time. So therefore if you're going to you know deliver community health medicine or you go to work in the urban area then basically what you're talking about is better than 50 percent of population you have no idea about. So therefore you costly functional stereotypes and I think that's the big problem that we face today and the institutions that are the response they have responsibility of institutionalizing these programs haven't seen fit to do that yet. How can you be a sociology major 1979 1980 and not taken a black oriented sociology course if you go to work in an urban area or Spanish oriented one or or how could you be to call yourself educated or be a liberal arts major and never head of African-American studies course or survey in African-American art or you know just goes on and on and on. And so we're not even talking about the relevancy of black studies and we'll play that game. It's clearly relevant

and has become more and more available just by our presence. Dr. Kahn How would you answer the criticisms of those that say that Afro-American studies is not going to. Feel for concentration. I think African-American status. As an academic that it was similar to any other discipline that we have and higher education presently in this country and education in general. I mean to argue that there is no academic foundation RAF American studies would lead me to feel that those people could make the same arguments for philosophy history. Drowns you so and so forth. Anything that that anyone wishes to pursue and an academic or intellectual intellectually rigorous manner in terms of developing a set of hypotheses. And then an analysis that should be generated from those theories I think

rounds. Of definition as an academic discipline. So I think for those reasons that some found looking back on it what effect do you think he has on black life on campus. I think if it hit you very much had a profound effect. And some of the things that we get at that time we could measure in the three or four years that we were there because our goal was to prepare students for a lifelong kind of commitment. But in the short term that we were there it provided students with an expression of identifying with either students from Philadelphia from New York from D.C. and becoming a part of the community in tutorial programs that allow them to participate in courses to challenge their. Intelligence and develop their skills in crowded outlets

for them to get into careers and talk about careers that. Here to for that had not been a part of their experience within not just the black context but in the worldwide context it gave them a frame of reference in terms of identity and with the counseling programs that we had. And I was provided sort of a home atmosphere. It was particularly important for the students who were out of town to understand and work with him to be a part of that social culture a community of students who are from Boston. And I think it did all of those things and certainly we could. Begin to measure the long term effects that have. But in the short term we found a very successful be use Afro-American Studies Program is distinctive in two ways. First it's a graduate level program only. Secondly unlike other programs we know of it arose out of peaceful negotiation. Dr.

Adelaide Gallagher department chairman recounts its history. I think it came from a number of things actually. It Ridgeley a student raised the question with me as I think I told you about his dissatisfaction with the way the material on blacks was being presented a particular course. This of course indicated there was something being said about blacks it was an omission. It was about how I was treated and as I was giving a section same course I was surprised someone else would treat material differently. But he sensitized me to it and I spoke to the dean and we got a group of faculty people and that is the grad school to discuss the problem. I think this is important not to overlook that one student interest but one student picked up by the dean of the graduate school and concerned faculty who went about examining what in fact was being done at Ross University in terms of the black

experience and found out not surprisingly that was much being done. And so without the pressure of any great political move. When we set out and try to design a format for doing this. The students at Ross University Braxton's were not silent at that time but they were more concerned with other issues. Lousy I think because we did have African Studies program it was visible and I was an associated with it as a black rattling member and there were other people doing something in the field. So the students were more interested in getting more black students and having a cultural center. Getting my black faculty in the abstract. However as I think I did tell you because I was working at that time as an advisor to the merger when we decided on for the faculty what might work here. As a graduate program I discussed it with the offices of the mojo to inform them and to get some feedback from them. We're trying to do. So that's how it started in relative

calm. Could you tell me what the thinking behind developing a program was versus the establishment of a department. A lot of universities have gone the route of establishing departments. That's true but you see all of those other universities with at least at the time about which is speaking which is the late 60s and early 70s were first of all being imitative. And secondly we're talking with undergraduate level you couldn't really start a program at the undergraduate level. You could have some thrust of courses but we never talked about the undergraduate level. We always we start off at the very beginning talking about graduate work and you could have you wouldn't have just a graduate department. So I think we really our interest in the how the courses were going to be designed where we want to start with the students almost dictated that we talk about a program and not the department. I think also I

am a little sorry that some of the development in the whole field of Africa studies was not done with greater knowledge about Area Studies per se. And other investment or programs in my own personal experience and experience of this university has been with the African Studies Program. And I love I help to set that program up. I was here when I started and I have tried to evaluate other. African Studies programs. So when presented with this particular challenge I think almost intuitively my mind went in that direction rather than in the direction of a department. A few years ago people used to ask us you haven't asked me yet but people used to say I was a student going to do with this degree. And I think you can ask that about is degree. You know what are you going to the baccalaureate are going to with a master's in history for example

of French speak French. So we haven't really spent too much time contemplating that. But the reality has been that students have used this experience in various ways. Some of them have use it just to get there. It's together to the side where they were wanted to go. They were and do go wrong wherever they plan to go in the first place. Some have already come with careers. We've even had priests who come the teachers who come they already knew what they were going to do but they use this time to enrich themselves. Others have used as a stepping stone to a PC program or to professional schools mostly low we haven't had indigo in the sciences from here to my recollection. Others have gone into the community. But a few years ago and I think this is been a good development although it's been kind of slow. We decided to develop for the students some options so that if you have a still loses I wanted to get a master's in there from work says but doesn't quite know what he or she

wants to do. We now offer them that possibility but also the possibility of getting a joint degree and afterwards as a just social work and after exam is in journalism. In point of fact as a black person or as just an educator you could use knowledge about black America in almost every field. But we start with these two fields because they seem to be most in need of the input. The power of the media and the ignorance of the media. Demand some attention being given to the people they intend to do. Don't review it talk about all or interpret and social work if you deal with people who have problems. Irrespective of they all if you want to stand the culture and the background. If you do it for the other way around you better able to help them. So we have these two joint degree programs which means we have a three track system of further exploring the barriers encountered by be used Department. Ironically we learned that Professor Bill worthies position as director of the Afro studies and journalism

program was in jeopardy before hearing from him. James Branch chairman of the journalism department comment on the subject professor were these released and we quote below it is a visiting professor would be you three years ago in a federal grant. He knew full well from the beginning that when the federal money ran out as he did this year that his post as visiting professor would expire. He signed a contract in early 78 specifically stating that employment here would end. I was 30 first thousand nine hundred seventy nine. There's a lot of controversy concerning your stay at Boston University. Could you explain that to us. I think it stems back. To. My having challenge the chairman of the thing ran. Two years ago. At a faculty. School a public medication therapy in. Which he was censured by a vote of 29. About. A school wide. Faculty. And I brought up that meeting some of the racial jokes racial remarks that you made to the students in particular and after that was above them and to me personally.

He's always resented it and I've known ever since. That. Was just a question of time with a knife at the very moment. How did you first find out about the move to have it removed. Or. As you would expect in a campus where there's this kind of climate. There been leaks a little over the last several years it's been the publications and other people. And a secret memo was leaked to me. And. Written. In handwriting by a top administrators just before it was to the program. He's the number two man under the president. And the secret memo which is probably written during a strike here in early April. The best we can determine. Because the secretaries are on strike. The ministries didn't have secretaries didn't they could dictate almost this handwritten secret memo details a plan to get rid of me. Just completely refutes the claim by James Brown and others that I knew I was going to be terminated quote unquote at the end of this academic year. Because if this were true there would have been no need to have the secret memo and the scheme to

bring in a replacement. On the kooky nor faculty notice was given none of the other general content that he knew every place from the going to be brought in. There's no in other words there's no peer review in the fact that even happened in this decision about a handful of people eight or 10 people at the top level of the university. And also last November in the administration about the interest he submitted a proposal to the National Endowment for manatees for a new grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities 3 a period and they praised me to the skies in that proposal said that I was uniquely qualified as a director of the Africa journalism program. I've been here 11 semesters five and a half years and suddenly they're raising questions now about my qualifications. That's what Worthing was in trouble. Now. Well. Everyone including my attorney we're going home and most eminent civil liberties attorney in this area. Please I have a very strong legal case. The I was actually in the 1079 1080 budget

according to this memo this handwritten secret memo. And was in some point fairly recently taken out of the budget which completely demolishes a case that my. State court interest was tied to a federal grant runs out in August. And. I don't I support is very definitely thinking of organizing a demonstration. At the use commencement on Sunday May 20th which kind of sort of thing that Ted Kennedy is going to be the featured speaker. Broken promises 10 years kids have brought us together. And Afros defense you know the premise is 10 years hence that Rasta gathering ads. Despite its well renowned reputation in the field of liberal arts education Harvard's Afro studies program rose from the 1909 student strike and has been enveloping controversy ever since Harvard has been severely criticized for what many consider racist insensitivity in his dealings with the original purpose of the program. At this April 19th Afro day rally students and faculty

alike voiced resentment over continued administrative interference in their program. Cause I have the history of the department. The five things I'd like to bring up with your is why I'm. Not in the form. That Afro-American studies should take a hard. Second. Who should decide curriculum matters very hard. Who should nominate tenured

professors in the department. Or who should be responsible for developing the research institute that was originally placed by the fact you are right and science isn't the department and fair while the relationship right from American studies. In the United States of America now I'd like to read you a sentence from the last Dean Ford send to a faculty member 30 asked to look into the questions that have been raised by students and various segments of the Harvard community. In 1967 68 he said. That all of the people who are concerned about these matters. I agree on one thing and the fourth

I have him in his own words well as far as movement toward a possible being the one to crack your concentration necessarily cutting across disciplinary line but the centrality of concern for African and African American subject matter. End of quote play really from the very beginning. Everyone I'm concerned with Afro-Americans that African subject matter the only thing factor in Afro-American Studies. The Faculty of Arts and Sciences vomited on April 22nd 1969 to establish a Department.

And inviting fabulous apartment fame a central point in the development of the Afro-American Studies Department. There should be a standing committee and the standing committee show have the following function. Among the functions was run I don't want the Afro-American Research Institute of the Afro-American research which was developed by the Standing Committee. Well within the Afro-American Studies Department. In 1974 without anyone from the Faculty of Arts and Sciences took the ball right out of the department I pointed a board of directors of Prime members will not have pro-American status

on it. Originally the W.E. Dubois Institute was to be a place where students faculty and community could study issues relating to Afro-American life. Dr. were near then chairman of the Afro-American Studies department was not even selected for the planning board of this institute. Another critical issue facing the Harvard program is tenure as epitomized in the e from Isaac's case. As a member of the faculty since its inception Dr. Isaacs offered extensive expertise in Ethiopian studies and African languages. Kenya was first denied when the dean of the faculty decided not to proceed on the committee's recommendation based on the closeness of the vote and that all yes votes came from the students and doctors were near. After a second committee was formed with no student members it was laden with issues like searching for American scholars vs. African iste and granting tenure to a candidate who could chair the department.

There was a mandate for the Standing Committee that the standing committee should nominate the first four to six professors. The end of the pipe might be 10 years. That's what the faculty sad. From 1969 M to the present we have never had faculty members in the department who were ten years back of the Fed. I'm sorry for our professors in the department might be tenure. I want the relevance of all of the relevant part of the team being refined who have been here I'm running out for Khamenei. But being fourth appointed this kind of.

And to bring in a report as to the situation and the demands and the needs of black students at Harvard has been opposed to department. I've been a committee up various departments from American studies. He was defeated by the back of me on April 22nd six any is negative enough is all. The Afro-American studies curriculum I believe that doing the Afro day rally at Harvard. We spoke with Dr. Martin and outspoken critic of Afro-American studies programs on this matter and I think it's an important matter. Do you think there is a move to change the status of the department through a committee or a program and if it is if the status of the department is changed do you think it will benefit the department at all. Well let me refer to the speak to the last point. First I think that yes any reformation on the lines of those laid out

in the original report would be to the benefit of Afro-American Studies at Harvard. Firstly I have a doubt about that. Department Professor you're going here and other members who are associated with his position on these on these issues. I'm not aware that at all. You see the department had an initial professor who was also its chairman namely you're going near and I always understood that that in fact was the only professorship for all practical purposes that the department as such would happen. And you see the reason for that is that operationally the department the call of a partment is really like other interests interdisciplinary curriculums committees and or departments in the university. You were at one time. Quoted as referring to the Afro-American Studies Department as an academic ghetto Do you still feel that way as an academic ghetto I mean there's no doubt about that it would be as if I woman studies department at Harvard had only women ninety nine point nine percent

women teaching in it and operating the study the place is a is a ghetto and this should not be a dad always should be cosmopolitan not sectarian. That's that is what it would have been if the advice that I rose off the committee gave the university was followed. But as I told you given the conditions under which that advice you know was rendered to the university the conditions of threats to burn something or harassed the lifestyle of the university university made a concession. Professor when he arrives there so much opposition to Afro-American Studies at Harvard. Toni's and Harvard. Professors from the 19th century until the present have been discussing talking about investigating black people from a younger centric perspective. Their conclusions have been that black people who have made no contributions to society at any time but black people.

Problem. That black people were born in few or because of slavery that they've been defeated so that they're a problem. Afro-American studies look at the black experience from a black commander view a black perspective and understand that black people have made contributions throughout history in Africa. And we understand that slavery was a profitable enterprise for the country as a whole. We understand that blacks have been the redeeming factor in bringing the United States to that nice voice progressive ideas and the black people such as Martin Luther King are the ones that are able to provide a vision for Americans. And this means that the status quo will be threatened because the status quo does

not provide for equality for all Americans including over 20 to 30 million white Americans. So I think that those are the reasons scholars and various departments are wedded to the notion that we are in the best possible world everything that's been done has been done for the best through errors. But those are under control. So they've been threatened. Dr. Buddy Foster former chairman of Princeton's Afro-American studies program and a former Afro Studies faculty member at Harvard is now a lecturer at Harvard's Graduate School of Education. Dr. Foster offers his views on Afro studies given his experiences at the nation's leading universities. Well expectations were shaped largely by my previous experience as a graduate student at Princeton. And then as the chairman of the Afro-American Studies Program.

Basically the program at Princeton. Was an interdisciplinary program which was structured in such a way that we depended to a large extent on the large gess of other departments to design our courses to staff the courses. When I came to Harvard the expectations were that here you had a university of international reputation that had made a rather substantial commitment both in terms of resources as well as structure. That is to say that Harvard had a department of Afro-American studies for people outside of the world of academe. It may appear that there isn't much distinction between a program and a department but believe me from the inside. Of academe of the university having a department is something far more substantial both symbolically and in fact so my expectations when I came was that I'd be able to function in a department with adequate resources and the kind

of critical mass. Of scholars and students concerned with the experience of Africans in the New World. How does the department compare with other departments. Well both in reputation and in fact. The reputation of the Afro-American Studies Department at Harvard was rather substantial both for controversy that had surrounded the department as well as the fact that it was Harvard University. And. I think it is somewhat true that Harvard University is the backdrop of higher education in the United States so therefore when Harvard decides to create a new academic unit. You have a rather. Impressive. Impressive reactions to the front page New York Times for example. Told us that Harvard had created a department of Afro-American Studies. So when you

compare. That. Beginning and the kinds of resources that originally were described. Two or three tenured professors a number of junior professors. Undergraduate students the prospect of. Some graduate or post doctoral programs whether in the department or in a research institute such as the DuBois Institute. When you look at that constellation and compare it to other programs around the United States you saw that. At least on the surface that Harvard in fact had made a rather substantial commitment. To Afro-American Studies far more so than you would find in other universities in the West Coast Midwest and East Coast. During the years that you spent at the department from your first arrival to leaving in and coming to the School of Education full time what type of changes did you notice if any at the department. Well I noticed two. Changes. First of all

a decided shift. In Focus intellectual focus in the department away from a comparative approach to the African experience in the New World and by that I mean at Princeton. Our program was clearly comparative that we were concerned in making linkages with African Studies. And making linkages with what you might call Afro Caribbean studies. And then of course focusing on the experience of Africans in the United States. So we constantly. Constantly we made. A decided effort to have a comparative approach originally that was the approach as I understood it of the Afro-American Studies Department at Harvard. When Iraq and during the year and a half to two years that I was an associate with the department I saw a decided shift away from the African Caribbean focus and and targeting or

focusing explicitly on the experience of Africans in the United States of America. The second change that I saw was a rather. Clear decline in the number of students who were involved formally and informally in the department. I'm not sure exactly why that happened but you got the feeling that you. Were missing students students who had been here before and been active in their colloquia series as well as our courses. I think those are the two things that I noticed. And I should say quite frankly also a decline in the morale of the faculty. And. The feeling that in fact commitments had been withdrawn that the future of the department was not as secure as it once was and that has a rather damaging effect on the morale of faculty both in their teaching and their research.

The role of students and the involvement students in the creation of our home studies departments and also in their in their development has always been a point of controversy and discussion. What do you think the role of students should be. You know not for American Studies Department. Well I think the role of students in the Afro-American Studies Department in fact is not that different than the role of students in any. Academic department that is to say that students ought to be actively involved in their own education. And if I understand education to mean do sing bring forth that which is already there students are in the process of trying to bring forth the gifts of the concerns that they have and the role of faculty and staff are to facilitate that growth. So therefore it's a it's a collaboration. Now the form that that collaboration takes can range from the kind of rewarding relationship with an instructor. The

fascinating relationship with a book that you find in a library can take many forms and it can take the form of organizing committees activities making suggestions in terms of new courses a variety of intellectual activities that that could be mounted in terms of one discipline or another and in this case Afro-American studies I think you have to understand the. Afro-American studies programs were created in large part as a result of a combination of political and intellectual forces political forces in the sense that the large number of programs in place and departments including Harvard were were founded in the late 60s as a result of the kind of social turmoil and recognition. And this society that in fact the way in which black people have been treated the way in which the experience of African the world had been treated. Was a disgrace. So a combination of students demanding. And without them I'm not

sure whether these departments have been created without them. I suspect we might very well be in the same condition that we were in universities in this society in the late 50s where you would very rarely find any mention or systematic examination of the Afro-American experience. Now the other forces were intellectual forces that in fact people began to to reflect. In part because of the social social social turmoil that how can we pretend. To educate people. In this society. And exclude either consciously or unconsciously. Important information. About one tenth to one twentieth of the population of the society. So. The combination of these two forces with students playing a role that quite frankly administrators should have been playing. Other faculty should have been playing. But they did not. Or they could not

as a result students. Took on that burden. Now add to that the general political turmoil and you have a backdrop. That suggests that students have been too involved. Now I don't deny for a moment that there have been abuses. But my sense of education is that it's an act of collaboration. And that the student in fact must be involved. How that involvement takes place. I think it depends on the concrete situation. Does that mean that it is then safe to say that. Institutions like Harvard and Princeton are somehow less committed today than they were in 69 and. When a lot of these programs were initiated. OK. If I as I hear your question. Our institutions like Harvard and Princeton less committed. Every time I hear the word commitment I recall that my grandmother told me that the

difference between commitment and contribution could be seen and a plate of bacon and eggs. And that is to say that the chicken contributed the egg whereas the pig committed itself to provide the bacon. Using that analogy our institutions like Harvard and Princeton. As committed. To Afro-American studies as they were in 1968. I don't know I suspect not. Is a true first of all that Harvard. Is a trendsetter with the future of Afro-American Studies. Looking the way it does to us. What effect will that have on Afro-American studies departments elsewhere if it is true at all that Harvard is a trendsetter. Well in my experience as a chairman of an Afro-American stage program at Princeton. I can assure you that Harvard for better or worse is a trendsetter. I cannot tell you the number of times during the two

years that I was chairman at Princeton. The number of times when I would come up with a proposal recommendation and faculty and administrators at Princeton would hold back and say well what are they doing at Harvard and Harvard was doing it then that made a little easier for me. And this is the institution of Princeton so that in effect we lived in the shadow. Of Harvard. Now you can imagine what the impact will be in terms of a program at the University of Illinois. Or the Wichita State. Or the University of Alabama at Mobius. Or Birmingham that when Harvard begins to pull back. And to say we want to rethink. The place and the importance of Afro-American Studies. That will be a signal. To a number of institutions who for reasons that I described earlier constrained resources will

now find the legitimacy to proceed to do what they're going to do. Now I'm not saying that some of these programs ought to exist or not I don't know the facts but what I do know is that the the impact of a decision made at Harvard will have an enormous impact around the country. What do you think the man factors are there we have to consider. To make certain that our people. MR. It's documented properly from our perspective I think one of the first and primary most important things is the ratification of many of the myths that have surrounded the the educational process as well as the culture of black people in this country there have been so many myths right after or prior to reconstruction but immediately after reconstruction where it was many of the myths we put together to contain a group of people and in a certain class status so I think before anything can be done the historical base the educational base the sociological base economic base the

political base many of those misconceptions and many of those myths must be eradicated muscle's myths have been eradicated. Then people can see the truth honestly and openly and begin to assess the impact of what is headed on the forming of America of a united pluralistic society and it's not until we begin to eradicate those myths. That's what black studies was about to give people a correct not only black people but people throughout the country a clear honest precise perception. Right now these institutions have put black people middle America from slavery and considering the conditions which brought about the formation of those departments and programs. What type of factors do you think we need to emphasize today to ensure their continuance. First and foremost of any program to ensure the continuance. There has to be one word comes to mind. We've gone to the era of contribution now as to the era of commitment and and commitment in America since around budgets and where you have a budget you have

to have. Commitment from the top and a commitment from the top. It's not only just a verbal commitment but a commitment in terms of the financial resources so that it is no longer on soft money. We have faculty commitment committed to the cause that what they're doing is not some bastard program to the side but a program that is an integral part of the learning process. The most crucial problem facing Afro-American studies programs today is the commitment of the universities under which they are housed. The extent of this commitment reaches across many levels. Not only should the universities maintain their leadership roles as liberalized institutions but should provide unstinting support of any minority group seeking to overturn the yoke of slavery and oppression to legitimate academic pursuit these universities must provide economic support as well. Without that commitment there is no guarantee of equality resources and accomplished faculty so necessary for the expansion of opportunity and experience needed by minority

students in light of the clamor for such programs. The mandate is clear and unequivocal. The present self-determination is irrevocable.