Education And Race Relations; Civil Liberties and Civil Rights: Implications For The School; 22

At our last session commissioner of education Francis couple discussed the role and function of the U.S. Office of Education with particular reference to its impact on race relations. At this session up panel will continue the discussion initiated by missed a couple of panelists surely MacNeil coordinator of language arts in the Detroit public schools working in the great cities program. Miss McNeil What is the great cities program the great cities program is a national experimental educational program for disadvantaged youth and we have with us also the Duc de la Ashby deputy executive secretary of the National Education Association. How large is the National Education Association these days in direct membership about 950000 through its affiliates about a million and a half and I understand that this is the largest professional organization in the world as far as we know. Also we have Dr. Franklin Patterson director Lincoln filing center at Tufts University. We haven't seen very much of Dr. Petit's and lately he's been busy on many

projects that you've been working with Educational Services Incorporated What is Dr. Petit. Well in a way yes I was very much like a signer Dr. Rivera says it's concerned with research and development in materials of instruction and trying to develop new and better materials for the schools and this is something that Dr. coupled was supporting very heavily. As you recall also with us is Professor Gordon Clark of New York City. From the Bank Street College of Education Dr. Cluff this in the summer of 65 we're heading up a project called away what is a wet project whereas a study sponsored by the Office of Economic Opportunity and the Office of Education to look at all programs of teacher education the preparation of teachers for working with disadvantaged children and youth in this country. We want to come back to that one because you have some data on the stand and with us as always is my good cold moderator Dr. John Gibson.

Let's come back to Dr. clocks. Area. Tell us what you found do you recall the commission I was somewhat concerned about determining whether the progress was being made. You have some data. What do your data suggest. Well we've completed the section of report dealing with the National Defense Education Act institutes of the summer this past summer. Nineteen sixty five summer. And we found that the institutes the goals of these programs were to help teachers to develop understanding about children you about disadvantaged children. And then from the reports and the interviews we had with the trainees this took place they did learn to understand the disadvantaged child. We were a little concerned however that the teachers gain understanding. Felt they needed more experience with children and to learn more about how to teach and how to work with disadvantaged children.

And I think haven't you in the S-I and both at the center been doing some work and in dealing with the behavior of the person after he is gained some understanding. How then does he shift as behaviors for example we're concerned about teachers having new behaviors. Well certainly this is one of our principal concerns at the Lincoln filing center and the sigh that you can't really change your behavior unless you have some material to work on unless you have tools to use and new tools we think are certainly needed in the field that you're speaking about and certainly in the whole field of civil liberties and civil rights with which this program is concerned I think it would change. We're talking about changing teaching behavior making it more effective. Actually I wasn't very specific in that and I think what I should have said is that both kinds of behavior need to be changed in terms of the changing problem to which we're dealing and the materials if there are good materials out to help that to happen. There is a wood being used to teach approved materials what does that mean.

I don't think it means much. I think you're right I think it's a meaningless term. What is far more meaningful it seems to me is materials that the teacher can work with adequately and effectively and with a sense of success and the children can work with in the same way and to bring out the commissioner's point being supported with federal funds and Educational Services Incorporated has its grants from the National Science Foundation not from the U.S. Office of Education to any great degree at present but from the National Science Foundation and from the Ford Foundation and other private foundations. This is a great deal of interest and is homes that need to place in the hands of teachers some materials methods that they're asking for I think is somewhat to the credit of the directors. I say this all was defensively having had a summons to do it in 65 but teaches of of the disadvantaged to know that since there are so few materials that the. And since the cupboard is someone that the director is played

it safe innocence and spend a great deal of time on understandings in the area of psychological sociological understanding and the notion that we are to put that aside but we ought to bring up the materials and methods because I think it's more complex it's you know you have understanding's and then you as a teacher shift your behaviors and you use new materials and surely I think you'd find that this is kind of a very complex thing isn't discovered in the great cities project that you have to work with the child as a whole challenge going to that. Harold Taylor's sense of the definition of the whole child and we have school community agents who actually go into the home and try to translate what has been considered a fortress school in the terminology that parents can understand and then they come back to the school community and try to translate to the teachers the path that they have discovered in their homes in order to understand that you cannot educate a child in a vacuum. We always have. Not always pathology but

generally more often than not. I would like to think that there was some good sensible living being done in the lower socioeconomic level that I think some time looking in from the outside we might appear you know that would be so. That's a logical well perhaps not pathological. Different and different in the terms or in the sense that most of our middle class teachers couldn't even come into the inner city you know willing to stay cannot translate the behavior coming out of this house so that they can operationally teach this child in the classroom something that we've been very much concerned with in this series yet with Dr. Parkman is brought in data with respect to the teacher's disadvantage using the NDAA workshops in the summer of 65. Yeah you sort of have a feeling as we talk about this whole problem of the relation of the federal government to education race relations that we really are only reaching a very few people. And I don't think Commissioner couple really had an opportunity to discuss this matter as fully with us as he I know he would want to.

Other words how do you really get into the mainstream of American education and reach the kinds of teachers not only in the inner cities but also in the rural parts of America who are concerned not only with Negroes but also with other. Americans Indians and Chinese and people from nationality groups how do we relate. The support of federal government to these programs so that the majority there is a very great many other programs the Office of Economic Opportunity several other divisions of the US we can talk about are working with rural with migrant with Indian Summer was it was a rich summer interesting program yes I think part of the answer does lie in the rich variety and total impact of all of the programs. But I come back for a moment to the business of materials. I would add something a little different a little different twist perhaps to the question of materialism a point the doctor club made. You suggested that by new training new behavior develops a new new behavior requires new kinds of materials you know

orders early I say things that are law that would be my point that these things are interlocked and that if we're talking about reaching. Hundreds of thousands of teachers and thousands of schools in a very real way changes in materials can be armed. One of the most hopeful ways of doing the job on a large scale I'm fast enough and important as as retraining is our new training. I think that the material side of it really is terribly important to stress to the doctor a sense of them back to the question of materials I'd like to ask Mr. New Yorker about books in Detroit. I mean it's going to go on in first grade. Yes. How they succeeded well in Detroit we were most fortunate in having the time and money allotted for writers committee to produce a set of readers. They were the first pre-primer has ever produced that were into racially ethnically mixed readers. And when they were first introduced into the inner city and into the outer city we didn't know what kind of success we would

have. Interestingly enough even though because it is an interracial City series in the first in 200 years because it was a successful series we tend to think it was because of the introduction of a different type of pigmentation. And yet when you go into schools and actually see children reading the series you discover it could be because we have more males in the series and you have in any other particular series and that as you ask boys about these particular books I will tell you they identified because you're reading about believable characters and I think this is one of the elements of success to the book. Did you think this series could be used in St. Louis. It could equally well in San Francisco it could be equally well used throughout the United States and it can be used in suburbia as well as inner city immigrant studies program. It has pretty much bought us others like it. That's correct. Like I say I'd like to get back to the preparation of teachers and look at another group and that's the whole secondary school principal elementary school principal a whole group of Supervisors and the people in the teacher

education leadership roles. We've not been doing a lot of training for the classroom teacher. What do you think is the concern of the leadership group in the educational establishment in this country. Well the National Commission on teacher education and professional standards which is one of our units as it's expressed a very real concern for the system has had two or three workshops as a matter of fact on the problem of the training of teachers and of lifting the level of teachers in some areas of the country where standards perhaps have been lower. I think there is a very definite recognition that we have to lift the level of teacher training and understanding of these problems that Frank went along with the materials. I don't think it's either materials or teachers it is about us and a whole climate of opportunity in which teachers can do their work. Now you say you're going to the Head Start program and what do you have a low small group of youngsters a handful is a very different

situation from dealing with open public school situation. So you've got to have another ingredient here and we are running a project right now called time to teach which is getting at the problems teachers are feeling as they struggle with the problems in the classroom and really can't reach around to all of the children in the individual way that they ought to be able to do it. Where is the status of that project right now you think. Well it's fairly well along this particular project will be completed in this calendar year. Hopefully teachers then there is to be a follow up to this we hope in terms of another proposal to the office of education. A number of school systems are involved in this now in a very practical way. We feel that a lot of good for building communication rapport. Principal teacher superintendent wise and one of my CAN time I can say this that the number one problem that teachers will give you across the board. Not only this advantage but all the rest of them. You know it's a problem of time to teach

you how to be freed from all the things that are non-teaching to race and also to have the equipment the materials and all the rest of it with it to make an ideal teacher teaching situation. This they want and need in our priorities project or as three years ago they place this up salaries and everything else and if you don't deal with that kind of sighing it's a little bit insulting to suggest to teachers that they ought to be doing this or that or the other thing on top of what they're doing already. I would agree with what you said about the need to push hard on that one it's certainly as important as training and as has materials to keep it's going to be the emphasis as to in terms of what was developing in the south. You had the project I believe that the National Education Association that attempts to study and aid the displaced negro teacher. Well as you know there's been a great deal of discussion about the number of teachers who were being. It was said displaced in the south the schools

integrated. Through a grant from the Office of Education. Together with some funding from the National Education Association this study is underway and preliminary report has already made I can't quote the figures today but in a few days this report will be out. So we'll have a factual study headed up by the man in the southern educational reporting service and Mr Cousins doing it for us. And this study will give us for the first time the real facts about the situation about all kinds of talk. Thousands You know we're not dismissing anybody. Now the truth is somewhere in between. Dr. flop I'm not at all sure that the question you raise has been sufficiently discussed about the role of the principal and the superintendent or has if you're talking about teacher time we can make a study but I think it's it's the leadership of the establishment which determines teacher row and function the Board of Education the superintendent the assistant superintendents principals and supervisors and many of our programs as

we've looked at them this past summer and 1965. Are basically for teachers of the person in the classroom. And they tell us constantly they come back from the Institute want to effect some change in the school menu in the situation and they have a principal who feels this can't be done or shouldn't be done or he has other ideas. And there isn't support for change for the change process throughout the school system. What have you been most fortunate in Detroit you've been able to pioneer a new sort of peer supervisory role you call the person in charge your reading coordinator and this person actually is hired and works full time in a particular school in the inner city helping other teachers to have the insight and expertise in the area of language thoughts that the person hired as a reading who are native might have an hour to do this reading coordinator is free full time to go to meetings in-service training meetings to come back with information that can be disseminated throughout the entire building and to help all teachers whether they're reading teachers or teachers in content areas discover ways to

become teachers of reading. Now what if a teacher has a classroom that's more informal and she's trying to experiment some new ways of relating to children and the principal walks by and the room seems a bit noisy. There's this reading coordinator interpret the new process the teacher the administrator that's her and that's where she is. So what in your experience in a workshop you conducted in the summer 1960 different from this pattern didn't you involve principals along with teachers. Yes there have been a number of institutes that attempted to. Enroll teams to teach is vice principal or principal feeling that one can support the other when they get back into the program. I don't know I think we can overdo this is seems to me that with a bit of this kind of help that Miss McNeil mentions that the whole school system is really put getting ready to push its the old wheel. I think this raises a big question because we're engaged in a series in communicating and talking with teachers as we have many times and shall do many more times on education and race relations

and what happens if you get a highly motivated teacher who really wants to bring about change in the school system what can he or she do to gain the support of as you say the establishment or the administrative officials to accelerate the pace of such a program. He also mentioned the school committee or school board which is absolutely crucial in addition to the administrator many administrators would like to do more than they are now doing and they're not able to because they elected or appointed public leadership is not. To go along Detroit may be luckier in this case than certain other cities in the country. But what can the TTC using this series do if they were if they face this kind of obstacle I think one thing we have to do in teacher preparation is not only help the teacher or the classroom but to help or to be a change agent herself in the middle you know if you're my superintendent or my principal or my assistant superintendent or whatever your role may be in supervising me I not only work with my students and children but I in some way have to help you to change then I'm the true change agent and I think in teacher preparation doesn't surely have to be done that way.

Exactly. Also we have to help teachers to see that just talking about the problems in the boiler room will not change the problem. They have to begin to start a dialogue with their administrators. Just having gripe sessions among themselves will not make them effective date agents. I think in terms of the working today she was under which teachers labor teachers are tending to speak out today about a much more vigorous voice than you ever have before and I believe that you know they should do what the Board of Education can do as a legal body that the teacher organizations then indeed in our field are working conditions make a difference. Now if we're talking about something they are beginning to may be civil rights or something the teacher needs to claim to in terms of the responsibilities and opportunities the teaching provides. No I don't think that it was soon that aspect's divisions of the establishment. Anchored to anything as a matter of fact a number of committees exist in the big NEA house. There is a committee headed up by Mr

Rivlin and of the teacher education colleges that has been concerned with the whole matter of teacher preparation teacher education for the university and they're making a point that along the line that a teacher should be or should not be just let go into a school system but they ought to be some transitional period when school system and the training age and here the college of joining together until the teacher was on tenure so that the training period might be four plus three. All seven is getting the continuity because there was a feeling one senses that many of the people in the in my academic circle are not aware of the realities of the classroom and are preparing for a classroom of the past and that many people in the classroom have had this kind of looking back feeling in there isn't any joining between these two forces.

I think when the when the commissioner was at Harvard he suggested that there be a five year relationship between the conclusion of the basic training and the training institution. There is another point I think needs to be made with regard to this whole matter of dealing with the disadvantaged. And these are indeed growing in many of our cities. Although I heard Sergeant Schreiber quote the figure the other night that 80 percent of the disadvantaged are not negroes in this country. So it's not altogether a race problem if you're talking about the disadvantaged we're we are here we are talking about the racial problem. I wonder Dr. Patterson you talked about a little bit about Educational Services Incorporated as a research and development center in the production of materials Are you concerned now or are you going to be concerned with any problems entering in the area of race relations in the development of you or your units. Well we certainly are just as we are at the center because this is as Dr. Ashby was

just saying is a central concern of American society today and we are trying to do things that will be constructive in the long run we think we are I think sensitive and need to be more sensitive to the point that Mr. McNeil is making and one that was suggested by what you said a moment ago Dr. Ashby to view the negro white relationship in America as one involving the disadvantaged and the advantaged is a pretty simple minded way of looking at it and I think that's what the point you were making. It isn't all that simple at all. That's a much more complicated thing than that we have tended I think the commissioner said this to sweep under the rug or put to one side. The fact that we do have race relations in our society and that they're not always easy to work out and that a number of people do come out on the wrong end of things because of the relationships that we've lived with for the past 200 years in terms of the materials that we're doing and missed McNeil's point.

I think one risk that we run is of going so head on at the race relations question in terms of materials that what we end up is with is what some of the publishers are ending up with now a quick solution which our friend Richard Smith calls the color me Brown solution where all you do is to put a different pigmentation on some of the pictures in the book I was very much impressed by your point that reality situations that involve human relations that involve believable people in relationships with each other and occasionally sometimes across racial lines or within racial groups. I make a lot more sense. This is the kind of thing with a diagram to write that out on the program sheet on methodology as it was this is also a sit home and let him finish my plate a moment ago that I started to make I have a you may know everything I said was a no no we're going to grant you no no not at all. That's right in but.

It seems to me that when we talk about helping the underprivileged and the disadvantaged in our society today recognize as never before I think their education is basic to the solution of our problems with weight problems or economic problems or what have you but I am of the opinion been working with some of the other agencies in the community a good deal recently that we must find some kind of new formula by which the schools and these or other agencies learn to work together. If we are really going to help these disadvantaged youngsters this is there's one point I think is very important and I a second one is the Visa V the administrators the superintendents the principals and all the rest. And as we become more and more urbanized and superintendents have to deal with just massive problems all the time we're gonna have to invent I think some new kind of administrative machinery that will help keep that teacher a little bit

closer to the top of the establishment in a given system because they are so remote now that they feel almost hopeless. And even in some of our big cities to get a roof leak fixed may take three years to do it. Incredible as it may seem. You don't want to. I just need to react to what he said because I believe firmly in the need for an orchestration of community resources which includes the schools. One of the dangers in the present situation unless we in the schools take the bit in our teeth is that this will not happen and that instead a second or third or X number of additional educational systems will be build up by default because the schools aren't doing the job the next aren't sharing although it's already happening. You talk about Job Corps neighborhood you score so on many of these things are happening really without any relationship to the local schools or to the State Department of Education or with regard to universities you're getting

things contracted out to Raytheon and TNT and so on. Now some of that is undoubtedly healthy and part of inventing new institutions for a changing time but I hate to see the schools lose the kind of stake in it that I think it was reassuring to hear the commission of that educational monies being distributed back more often now through the office of education than through some other resources although I think we must must admit that the. Vocational education preparation within many secondary schools could not keep pace with the realities as found in the industrial world. And it may be that there is a good case to make for certain kinds of training in industrial settings. I think it really is one of the only major cities that got a large federal grant in order for us to take some of the promising practices that we discovered in the original Great Cities Project which was Ford Foundation funded and implemented into the largest school system.

One of the reason via the Office of Education is now is now handling a larger part because of these big bills and the Congress just recently passed medium and higher education. Senator as you know saying that we need a Department of Education because there are 40 other agencies there dealing with education. I don't suppose it ever slices cleanly and neatly but we can do better I think. You know one kind of very practical question in this regard that the teachers and others who are concerned with this program of ours might might want to talk about is whether the role of the school is of the kind of partnership role that Dr Ashby is talking about whether it where it should be doing jointly a job with other community resources or whether in effect the job of education should be very narrowly construed. And if a boy or girl drops out. Well then let him be trained by TNT and a Job Corps camp or by

Raytheon or by some other agency in our society or put him in the army. Is this is this what we want in American education. But I I wonder if part of the reason Mr. King and maybe you can help me with this as an educator here in teacher the fact that the whole area the new child development centers which are teaching health family counseling a multifaceted approach to the life of the child whether the outside agencies both business industry the social work agencies colleges of education are more innovative that they haven't been that they've been experimenting and the school has been very traditional in early childhood education and it's been other agencies that have developed new ways of educating a preschool and young child. Not the school system and what I call the school establishment itself so that. Have we been doing our job in the school. Unfortunately not only at the preschool level but also on our way to adult literacy programs

that came out. We discovered when we had and read program in Detroit for the adult functional illiterate and the people who started this long after our program we started in 59 and they started a few months ago in 64 when they started they were freer to get materials in a hurry to start with methodology that hadn't been tried to experiment and be an elevator. This was part of their directive. And so they could start a program and get it underway much quicker than the traditional school program because you had to wait again to see whether or not certain policies were going to be violated. Now there's a nice problem. I was going to read just a couple of statement that. In the long run you know a lot of the things that have been taking place in American education are really not new. He did stress the acts of the last several years especially the Act of 1965 Elementary Secondary education and even talk very much because simply we didn't have time about the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the role of the Office of Education in the areas of desegregation and racial imbalance

in the United States. How do you feel about the Civil Rights Act as it looked as though it progress is being made under this Act. Well progress is being made but my question always is you cannot legislate feelings. And so how can we as educators and help to get the kind of sensitivity training teachers need to have in order for them to function fully in an integrated society. You know what Dr. Pettigrew made a point that we discussed at a nearly a session having to do with giving people a chance to behave in a certain way. And then he said attitudes and by implication feelings may be built in to develop a more effective way than let's say a confrontation we're going to try to change the attitude. Very often people back up. I think the educational policy is diminishing but you're applying this way rather well and the recent pamphlet that you can do you segregate people in the physical sense but you have to integrate them in the emotional sense.

Got to say that we have the education policy statement listed in the syllabus discussion outline. We thought that was a very effective job one so you thing else about the edge well I might say that this pamphlet internal American education in the search for Equal Opportunity is not directed solely at the race problem but at the disadvantaged problem. But it has a very strong section on de facto segregation in other points in this area. You know it and I was happy last summer when the representative assembly the National Education Association said we wish to adopt this as an official position. Normally the educational policies commission pamphlets are there all and they're not necessarily the endorsement of the NEA but this one does. And it's a very strong and I think Bill a very effective statement. I'm glad you have it here. Their biographies coming back for a moment to Mr. MacNeill's point about. Your not being able to legislate feelings. And again I would feel that

the the the point is well taken but it's not quite that simple because. Well you can argue from that point then that any legislation having to do with human relations is is probably not going to work. And on the basis of that argument you could if you don't carefully separate desegregation and integration from each other or discrimination and the act of discriminating against somebody in housing or on jobs or something like that from prejudice if you don't make that kind of separation then you're apt to find yourself ending up saying Well any laws in this field are probably not much use. Actually of course they're of tremendous use not only in actually preventing physical discrimination let's say making it illegal just as a law against murder hopefully except in certain parts of the country seems to make a lot of murders an unpopular kind of activity you're apt to end up. If i'm sorry you can end up by using legislation as an educative

device. Legislation helps to shape the mores of a society just as well as the mores shaping legislation. I think the point that I want to make though is that legislation helps but it doesn't do the entire job. My biggest problem the native schools that I go into even now because they know there is a poverty bill also they know there's a civil rights bill. Now the teachers are getting complacent and they feel now having a large job there's a gun it's all over. And this is only the beginning and I think that's what I want to stress more anything else. But doctors here say if the whole area of integration there isn't some of our So for research support the thesis that proximity brings about a change of attitude I think this is what's been implied in our discussions and early on in the series that if you provide opportunities for people to relate. Favorable circumstances that this kind of thing changes attitudes more than some of the approaches in which I went with it was a comment about the friendship

of brotherhood dinners a little I thought some about discussed and made a good case even for such kind of a bit of evening behavior for some of the alone won't do the job though it has to be proximity with uncommon involvement in something that you all are concerned about. Common and education can be the sort of thing is the curtain is going to take a good look at that area and the school need to reach out into the community and work with the parents in order to make this effective within the school. Just to make it most effective we just talk about two things here working together and reaching parents know that the Office of Education have anything to do with stimulating programs along these lines I know that you had this in the NBA Institute and so forth but. Mr Cupples said that the role here of the Office of Education as a junior partner and working with local and state school systems that it is an initiate or originate or of ideas that the real work has to be done of the local

community. But in these two areas. Getting people to work together in common purpose and common goals and working with families and involving community agencies has this been done is it being done by the office of course as one title of it has to do with the supplementary centers and so on this runner gets going I think it says a great deal of potential for this but I don't know how to evaluate it at the moment. Is the sentiment you've been interested in looking ahead to the future. Is this which Center you I'm talking about in Tallahassee to the supplementary centers in the community. Title Three and he's a Title 3. Yes it is. There are several thousand of those are there and I don't know your drawing or the room eventually but I think I still think this raises the question of the role of the Office of Education which we're concerned with in this session and and I'm sure that many teachers and educate or is using this series will have all kinds of things that occur to them on how the vast amount of funds appropriated and allocated to education can better be used to stimulate

programs that they know in their heart and they know because they've used them and developed them like you have in Detroit that it could better be done. What the what the what kind of influence can teachers bring to bear in getting the Office of Education to initiate some things that they would like to do or did they depend upon the legislation and the ideas really coming from Washington. I don't know I just throw this question out as a word. Is the office really a stimulus. I think they should. Start Bersih is when you say that as we look at the programs of training evaluating and stimulating them that one dimension in most of these programs which we give support encouragement to and you know as well as making all of that community relationship the experience for the teacher and getting her used to working with family and other agencies as is important. Actually in Detroit you see and we started back in 59. We had

an intricate part of our program working with the parent in the home. We have in fact a movie called children without I don't know if you've seen a tremendous end of your film we have a quotation that says only if the experiences of the day carry over into the evening. Can the school have a chance again in the morning. And this is trying to help teachers to understand that you cannot educate in a vacuum. You must know about the forces that are helping to shape that child. In addition are above and beyond anything that's happening to him in the classroom. And if you have the understanding of the perceptions of what his community is like and then you are able to translate his behavior in the classroom so that you do not penalize him because this particular day he's unable to accept the education that you are offering him also by getting the parents into the schools so that they can understand that. We see school as a stepping stone out of the ghetto. Some of the parents who also understand that they want a better life for their child or their children do not see how education can be a stepping stone out of the ghetto. And we have to somehow translate

what we are doing as education practitioners so that they get a wise person can understand what it is are what our aspirations for the child actually might be. I think my this can be done. And it seems to me without Uncle Sam to me I think of another Sam Sam Shepherd in St. Louis in the Banneker district of the St. Louis schools where you know Bill you and I have visited there and seen what he's done with parents and with teachers without aging with without changing materials or methods but by tremendous efforts on his part on the part of staff to involve parents in taking a very hard boiled look at the requirements their children are going to have. I mean I think good Dr. Gibson's a question is an intriguing one because he's asking the Metro How do we obviously can filter down and we would hope that eventually some of the monies appropriated would help in improving change classroom practices. But I think there's another question how can we kind of communicate back. Let's say to the office in terms of needs now in

many many communities such as Detroit Boston Boston we have the action for Boston community development. And you cannot get funded from Washington I think rightly so if you operate on a unitary basis if you are one agency even the school applying to Washington without working closely with a whole coordinated set up in the community does not have a chance now I would hope that in the formulation in the study in the study of need in the in the ultimate use of the teacher that there would be a very heavy involvement of the classroom teacher. I don't see how anyone can do it at the supervisory level. I think Mr. Gibson's question is a very good one and I don't know how the US vegetation can be filled directly with all the parents are here but. You have here a large amount of money now available for research projects and of course there will be large centers when that is all going. Now then the question is how to disseminate the findings and get them put into practice.

And I heard somebody say the other night that the editor of The Office of Education magazine was talking about printing something which goes to twenty one thousand people. Well either maybe the key people but there are some disseminated channels outside we have sun and other organizations have some and I think we will have to marry up these disseminated channels with the research and study centers and to disseminate the best practices that are found in the school systems in order to shorten this lag of 25 or 30 or 40 years that Paul Blart said it took to get a new idea across so we can be visible. If you're going to visit in the natural resource that we need to utilize more is indigenous leadership in the community. I think if you take a look at some of the programs already on the drawing boards under the Elementary and Secondary act you'll see a tremendous diversity and just two. Compliment the office of education for its willingness to give a lot of local communities flexibilities in developing new

programs which cope with local problems and there are many various kinds in the United States the research proposals give a wide latitude for those proposing to undertake research activities and developmental activities so a lot of initiatives can come from the community as long as there is an incentive there to really think new. When a good thing comes of it just spread that using them that is some of the some of the partisan dissemination of the methods that did as important as indigenous leadership is it is most important it seems to me as it can affect the bigger institutions and activities of our society one of these is the publishing houses and other outhouses that deal with materials of instruction for the schools. One with which we've had some contact reaches 57 percent of all of the elementary school children in the United States every week. They have something like 16 million customers among the children of America and this is fantastic to overlook the need for the new federal programs to

have some kind of successful impact on these kinds of institutions is to overlook something important I think the best way that impact can be gained is by the widespread demand at the school level for better materials and it one of the outcomes of training and of. Of research efforts and so on can be to increase the voice on the part of teachers and principals for better things from the big producers the big producers will produce for what they can sell. And if they feel they can sell stuff that is of a higher quality than they have done so far they'll do it well. We have tried of this discussion session to take a look at the U.S. office from the other side from the local community. Looking back to Washington. I have a feeling that we're being overpowered by so many new acts and

we need someone to scan these carefully to see whether or not locally were taking advantage of every possible means that's now available. I would only hope that we have enough ideas to to utilise all the monies that are available thank you for your discussion here Dr Patterson. The doctor club doctor Ashley and Miss Shelly McNeil of Detroit and again thank you co moderator. Oh I am. Honored.