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I'm Cally Crossley This is the Cali Crossley Show. We're talking about the legacy of KEVIN WHITE The four term mayor of Boston died last week at the age of 82. He was known as a liberal reformer hailed as the hero who turned the hub into a contemporary metropolis. But he will also be forever associated with an incident that has stained the city the 1974 court order to desegregate schools this watershed moment was followed by months of racial violence. Dozens of people were injured. Neighborhoods erupted with protesters hurling slurs and stones at buses full of black children. It was a turbulent time that marked Boston as a racist town. This hour we look at how Mayor White managed these racial tensions. The challenges that he faced and how the desegregation of Boston schools shaped his political career. Up next mayor Kevin White and Boston race. The good. The Bad and The Ugly. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi Singh. Florida Republicans will

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thinking man's action hero. Last weekend's chart topper underworld awakening slips to number two following in third is the debut of one for the money Red Tails as fourth in Man on a ledge opens in fifth place. Trina Williams NPR News. U.S. stocks lower today with the Dow down 77 points at last glance at twelve thousand five hundred eighty three Nasdaq off 11 points. It's a two thousand eight hundred five. I'm Lakshmi Singh NPR News Washington. Support for NPR comes from Carnegie Corp. of New York a foundation created to do what Andrew Carnegie called real and permanent good celebrating 100 years of philanthropy. Good afternoon I'm Cally Crossley. Today we're discussing Mayor Kevin White's legacy but with a focus on the racial tensions that erupted throughout Boston. The 974 court order to desegregate schools was followed by months of violence racial strife and protests. Joining me to discuss this stain on Boston

history how it affected White's political career and how far the city has come since then is Kenneth Gus Scott. He was Boston's in the branch president from 1963 to 1968. I'm also joined by Bill Owens the first African-American to win a seat in the Massachusetts State Senate. He was elected to office in 1974. Also with us is Ted landmark. He's president of the Boston architectural college. He is also the subject of the 977 Pulitzer Prize winning photograph that captured racial assault in downtown Boston during the busing riots. Thank you all for joining us. So I want to start this way because a lot of people at this moment even reading Kevin White's obituary and trying to figure out where is he in the whole spectrum and context of pots of power in the my oral office. I don't understand any of this history. I don't know Kevin White. They don't know that the busing story even if they have heard that it had some impact here. But most people don't know the story.

So I want to go way back to 1967 when Kevin White was first. Put in office was elected to office and get a very brief description from you Bill Owens about what the racial climate was like in Boston at that time. Well in 1967 of the racial crisis was not seen as a crisis at all. I don't think and during that time was shortly going to the point of Dr. Martin Luther King's death. But it was at the height of the backlash of the civil rights movement. That's what was really happening. And at the height of the backlash of the Civil Rights Movement Kevin White effectively I think dealt with it as best he could. That was the year that Tom makin's got elected. It is the city council

that was the first time. It may not have been the first time it's a little skew of us whether that had been a person before Tom but then Tom Adkins got elected and he became very forceful city council and I think that has some bearing on the behavior and the activities that were going on in the city. And as you can recall. Right after the death of Dr. King's son I want to hold that just a second I may come to that I just want to just get a sense and 67 when Kevin White comes in. What's the climate then and you've given us a little bit of background. Yes. So kind of guy Scott. You are at this time the branch president part of this backlash of the civil rights movement that Bill Owens has talked about was beginning to center around what some were calling de facto segregation in the schools here in Boston. And now Kevin White he's young he's you know 37 38 and he's in office. Describe that whole climate as you were below and

has given us the racial climate in general but I know that there was a focus on the NWC about the quote de facto segregation in schools. Well actually during that period of time it was a time that. We will call it. I'd like to say whoever was mayor had a responsibility a bridge in Boston to it since because there was. A whole lot of realignment that had to be done and more just meant it had to be done. The racial groups were increasing we were having more and more minorities in Boston. The biggest issue then with the school issue because of the fact that we had inferior schools there was no question about it that the schools in rocks red to show Reds goalie every school day

these schools were getting less but less Hillary sauces and these were the schools are in the districts where the blacks live that had. We were. Haven't a flight of Burgundy schools back up to par and we were losing out on that because we had a school committee that was very old it was Louise de situation at the time Louise day Hicks year for his day Hicks was on time Eddie and in fact we should mention that Kevin White beat her she ran for mayor and he was able to defeat her in running for Mayor go ahead. Now we certainly supported him right. The de facto segregation came up with the issue that when we found out this was judge who was Depass to wait Dick banks and his group found out that we just could move the school committee so therefore we took the track of say it if you will give

resources to the schools in our district rid of black people. We're going to send the kids to your district where you had the resources and it was something like Paul Potts did a study and the study showed that for every 50 cents of his spent in the black community a dollar in a dollar 50 was spent in the white Hyde Park District. OK so that gives me a good segue gives everybody a good sense of just what the disparity was and and why there was so much attention being paid to schools against what was happening in the racial climate in Boston we're going to continue that in just a second but I just want to lay the groundwork for people remember nobody knows this history a few people do at this point who are listening to us. And I want to turn over to Ted landmark and ask you to do up sort of a step back big picture because looking at Buston then from I don't know that you were here then where you hear Ted like Mark I don't know I arrived shortly thereafter but I would have to comment on the perception that someone who was in school had lost in the last point in

time. I was fortunate to be able to take a course with Jonathan Kozol who had been teaching in the Boston public schools and had just written his definitive text death at an early age about what was going on in the public schools and he brought into our classroom purloined tapes of Boston school committee meetings where elected school committee members were calling young African-American children monkeys. In school committee meetings and so it wasn't just as though there was a simple disparity of funding. There was clearly a high level of hatred that was being expressed towards young people of color in the classrooms and the feeling that people outside the city had whether it was entirely fair or not. Was it if you moved to Boston you were moving to a

city where you were going to have very few opportunities to grow as a professional and where the climate in the city was such that there was a clear racial animus that was directed against any people of color who lived here. And so here we have Kevin White supported by communities of color as Kenneth Guscott has just said because nobody wanted Louise day Hicks who's on the school committee being involved in the kind of conversation you've just described headlands Mark. And having a great amount of hope it seems to me from you know what I have read that this is going to usher in a new era. In a in the racial climate in Boston in general Bill Owens and Kenneth Gus got into headlands mark but also with regard there's going to be little movement on the school committee. So let me just fast forward to then a year he's still into his tenure quite early and Martin Luther king dies and people and historians have written and many have commented that this

perhaps was one of his shining moments as mayor because he stepped up at the moment that Martin Luther King's death where all cities were burning around the country out of frustration and anger and decided that he wanted to have an expression of togetherness for the city. He made it his business to try to figure out a way to have it happen so that there could be a coming together of everybody in the city around the James Brown concert that was already scheduled as the concert was schedule. Councillor Tom Atkins who is in place now first black city councilor on it worked with him persuaded Mayor White to let the concert go forward. And then Kevin White was able to secure $60000 to pay James Brown for this so that the it would be broadcast and people could see it. And when people stay in their homes or come down and be quiet and. And respectful of the death of Martin Luther King is in a way that wasn't happening in other cities. So I want to give you a chance to hear Mayor

Kevin White addressed the crowd at the Boston Garden this is 1968. Remember he went in in 1067 as a spree early in his tenure. And this is during the James Brown concert and this was 24 hours after Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated. KEVIN WHITE 24 hours ago. Dr. King carried forward all of us walk a little point. Where we may live together in harmony without violence and in peace. Now I'm here tonight like all of you to listen again. But I'm also here to ask for your help. All right. I'm here to ask you to stay with me as your mayor. I've made Dr. King's dream the reality in Boston this is a journey and its future is in our here tonight tomorrow and the days of

quote. Can't Guscott What did you think at that moment about Kevin White and how he interacted and how he acted in that moment. He showed leadership at the time of Dr. King's death I was on a radio program in Kingston Jamaica and I immediately got on a plane and came back to Boston. To give you an idea of the climate around here was I couldn't get a taxi driver to take me from the airport it to Roxbury. So I got a cab driver to take me from the airport to the NWC peace headquarters which is on the corner of mass I have a Columbus Avenue and the climate was very tense and people were very much afraid that we would have a riot in the city of Boston similar to what was happening across the country. And what about guns. I pushed the

issue with the mayor of having the concert down at Boston Garden. It took a lot of nerve on both of the side add. I personally was afraid of that. If we had a large congregation of black angry people down around Austin gardens which was in the predominantly white district that there would be a flare up. But fortunately it was very peaceful and mayor. He knew he showed leadership he showed leadership to appearance the CA's circuit to mingle with the crowd and to speak with the crowd especially with the climate the way it was below us he agree did Kevin White show leadership and I think Kevin showed a lot of leadership and I think the role of Tom Acton's has not been playing up as much as it ought to

have been played up because we're not Fatah. The mayor might not have been ready willing or able to take the position that he took. But Tom nudged him. He gave him that and he went to the airport and picked up. JAMES BROWN The whole bit as I understand it. And that gave the mayor another level of confidence that he could step forward and do what he had to do. And I think that showed a lot of courage and risk taking on his part. 1068 tell as Mark was that leadership for Kevin White and the moment in Boston. Well I don't think there's any question but that it was a very courageous act on his part. I mean you're talking about two young guys in the mayor and tarmac and coming together Tom had not grown up in Boston and the mayor was perceived as not being from one of the ethnic enclaves in the city that had been

heavily engaged on one side or the other of of of the busing issue. And they were the people who could in fact come together in a way that was not polarized. But it took tremendous courage because they were both young guys. Stepping forward representing the entire city and making the kinds of statements that were not being made in a number of other cities around the country where there were certainly substantially higher levels of racial violence than there was in Boston at that point. That was Kevin White in one thousand sixty eight right after Martin Luther King's death. And so the question becomes for some after that what happens with Kevin White in leadership with regard to race in Boston we're going to talk about that. We're talking about Kevin White Boston's four term mayor who died last week and we're talking about his legacy in the context of the anti busing riots that erupted throughout Boston in the mid 70s. It was an event that marked Boston as a

racist town. You can join this conversation at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 8 9 7 8 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. We want to hear from folks who are living in Boston at the time. What do you remember how do you remember Mayor White in this context. Were you one of the students bussed 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. You're listing to eighty nine point seven WGBH Boston Public Radio. This program is made possible thanks to you and the Boston Symphony Orchestra led by conductor Bramwell Tovey and joined by guest vocalists and the Tanglewood Festival Chorus in Mendelsohn's hymn of praise now through January 30 first. Tickets available at B.S. o dot org. And fuller craft Museum featuring Michael Cooper a sculpture a lot to see on view now and opening February 18th Dan Daley working method a 40 year

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in the states courtesy of Masterpiece Classic. Supporters. Keep an eye out for the next great series for masterpiece. And thanks for playing the most important part here at Radio and Television. Welcome back to the Calla Crossley Show. If you're just joining us we're talking about Mayor Kevin White with a focus on how busing and the desegregation of Boston schools affected his legacy. I'm joined by Kenneth Gus Scott he was president of the Boston branch from 1963 to 1968. I'm also joined by Bill Owens the first African-American to win a seat in the Massachusetts State Senate. And Ted landmark president of the Boston architectural college. He's also the subject of the 977 Pulitzer Prize winning photograph that captured racial assault in downtown Boston during the Boston busing riots. You can join the conversation at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0

1 89 70 you can write to our Facebook page or send us a tweet as well. What do you remember from that time how would you characterize Kevin White Boston during the busing crisis. 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Harry single to Harry from Stoughton Go ahead please you're on the Kelly Crossley Show eighty nine point seven WGBH. I think you have to remember I wish I had recommended memories good and bad. I came in a basket of the repairer from Providence in 1972. Listen I'm a regular station in Boston. I remeasured McReady not to mention history best. Separate matter and there is an effect and I don't actually remember an and I thinking Bastien resent I mean I wouldn't say that in order to discredit there is a great racial divide in the city much more than I ever imagined bad rep or supposed to Miranda rather generous with merit past time for answers and when I get to know each other pretty rare I passionately admired him that I was really disappointed and I meant American as a repair that

object the man was no better I really disappointed in him that I have asked or perhaps for a better America has he had a strand of the fence political but I kept reading to remember that his conscience would get the best of him and he I for is have he would rather be the best president there is no trend Democrat who sat at the ready and after bad at school committed to keep that community screws that America passed never so what you're saying is enough in our first segment we established that Kevin Whitehead leadership when he did it right after Martin Luther King's death and and trying to manage the racial tensions in Boston given everything that was going on at the time as my guests have described. But during the busing crisis not so much as far as you're concerned not to share some of the ship but he was politically savvy restaurant as if you actually can add one sack to Rahm Saturday rather and I think he has a sentiment had he run a thread to have a racial united city rancher fad that I'm dreaming and

they were speaking for the record. Mariner separate this time but there are steps that if you take the restaurants right position you're in favor of the clearance I reference mark wherever we have to read to read or the maker and make pursuit of a better setting. OK the strat of the fans got to Christmas around everything I've heard from a Mac and is very rare in that period of time city councilor Tom Atkins I think he was one of the great I'm sent here as a bastard What a courageous man he seen ransom bomb threats and assassination threats and street smart ass a spreader clan are very clear Anderson and I reserve mass Adam and I just him I remember Mariner Stern who pastor asked a number of years ago but then we hear much mention of Tom Chester super guy. Well thank you very much for the call. We appreciate your comments and have a read through Mr M and Mark thanks I ration Rippa at that moment where Mr. Man's my friend the satirist restaurant chain Richard asked.

God Marianne in our conversation but thank you for calling. We're going to move on because I need my guest to engage in as we've said at one point I want to pick up from our caller Harry about he felt that Mayor Kevin White straddled the fence maybe didn't show the leadership and I want you people to hear Kevin White in his own words. This clip here is Mayor White reflecting on his mayoral duties that come with managing busing and the desegregation of Boston schools. Well I'm the mayor and the first recognition is that it's a it's a quota that has to be enforced by the city. That is a final decision but it's a revocable and that I'm going to be responsible as a minimum for public safety. And at a maximum for the social hell on the way it's a little exaggerated with the morals of the town somehow a question it was a political question. What I did was respond politically. He said he responded politically I can't if you guys got. How do you how do you

measure what his response was at the time. After the busing decree came down and we should say for those who don't know Judge Arthur Garrity issued a court order that said the schools will be disaggregated and this was after some time of delay by the Boston School Committee in implementing a measure that would have done the same. What you have to judge Mayor Kevin White you have to look at the climate that we're in. It was a climate on which there were. People were just ready to shoot each of the good self Boston people the Irish people there some of them were very bitter towards the black community the black community was very bitter towards the Irish community and there were things that were going on where you had enough time I could tell you about him where such as a one of the school committee meetings when Tom Atkins who I agree.

Get a great leadership job I hired Tom back and to be truthful with you and Tom was sitting in at the School Committee headquarters at the superintendent's office and we went down to protest to get Tom out of there. And on one side of the street were people with guns and on the out from the south Boston community and the other side of the street were people from the Roxbury Community with guns had we were up in what Mrs. Cass in the restroom up at the school committee meeting and Mrs. noted. They told us that we had to get out of there but it tied the meeting was over and. Auto Snowden who had passed away and who was one of the leaders here he was running back and forth between the white security population and the black population and the police who were

there and everybody was frightened as to what was going to blow up. And so when you say that the one man that was Kevin White did not show leadership and it took leadership to be between those two thrusts. Keep the waves keep doing keep the climate because things were ready to blow up and that meant the mayor did what I consider to be a great job in keeping the peace and so that we didn't have the type of riots that they had in other parts of the country. So Bill Owens kind of you know what twit can't get Scott has just described is a very dangerous time here in Boston and I think people have a sense of the depth of the anger on what became a quickly polarized black and white line here in town. Some have said that Kevin White was paralyzed because God said He did a good job of trying to just keep the peace and hold

on during the ride. What's your assessment. My assessment Kelli is that. The political arena people in the politics of the city in control of that time and the media allowed this to be placed in the context of busing. Not desegregation. That was the clear issue in my mind that we were under a desegregation order not a busing order. Bussing has taken place every place in this country by white children going to school and the need to get to school. But as soon as a desegregation order came down they started calling busing. They didn't call it bussing that to my recollection when we bussed our children out in the METCO program or when Ellen Jackson took children on Operation Exodus and put them into some of the other schools that could

equalize their education hopefully. It was the kinds of weird things that made the difference and they took the focus off of desegregation and the equalization of resources and turned it into busing. Some people said at the time Bill Owens and you're the first African-American state in the state that it was a question of choice that what was happening was to your point is that communities felt and in this case and often were white communities like you taking away our choice and that maybe we might have been in support of this. But we have taken away our choice on the other hand you had some folks saying now this is just pure racism you just don't want to go to school a black kids and that's what the issue is how do you how did you see it at the time. Well Issue No. Think think Ted just mentioned death at an early age by Jove calls all my children went to the Gibson school which was the school that he wrote about.

And as a result during Nineteen sixty eight sixty nine week took over the parents decided they were not willing to have their children receive no education anymore. So we decided we were going to take over that school and we did. We took over the Gibson school. We immobilize the principal of the school and we told the teachers they could stay if they wanted to. That was our reaction to that situation. As it turns out we ended up because the police stood in the door. A few days after and said we couldn't go back in the school so we said OK we took our children and set up our own school called the Gibson liberation school and that was the beginning of some of the kinds of activities as far as education of our own children taken that into our hands. So you had an alternate alternate solution we created alternative solutions.

Now we have in the line a student who was busted before I go to that clip. I don't think people who know don't know this history have a sense of the depth of the anger that Kenneth Guss Scott has described that you have placed here at the. So I want people to hear this clip. So you have a sense this is from eyes on the prize. The episode is the keys to the kingdom exploring the Boston busing desegregation crisis and in this clip we hear from two very different points of view on the matter of busing. Just because I'm right doesn't mean that the 14th Amendment doesn't mean what I mean that I am right and I was. Right. All we want for our kids is to love and to get a decent education to live decently as human beings. But we're not even to distinguish as human beings as far as these. Sting goes a South Boston when a guy has. And I would be damned if I am a child of mine exposed to anything like that I wouldn't want my child to sit beside it. You see on the teacher. And that's what's happening.

That's the lesson that those kids have to get not to insult but to stand beside money sweetie and to look at the guy for the first time so that was the level of intensity that was going on so people just you know that just seems foreign to a lot of young kids now who are you know just don't operate in this context. So he didn't hear that. Let's go to Christine from Middleboro Christine you are a student who was a bus during that time. This is the Kelley cross the show on WGBH. Eighty nine point seven tell us about it. I would I want if I could get the notice to be fast let me just pick it back up. I was raised in the 60s so I ever knew with Kevin White was just always there I remember you know you're a young kid you just I didn't understand the child that was born in 59 tell. I grew up with a black family across the street from me and a very close with my parents and they babysat for me. So through grammar school the chanting and then we went over to the rajah's which was the junior high and my best friends across the street moved and I get

into about 14 when the buses come but you know I've been taking the key I was taking the bus I was walking when the school changed from elementary to junior high. I would hop on my bus put the dime in it was a dime then I'd get down to clear a square and get to the middle school and I think I understand this whole thing. I got this notice and I was like no way I mean you're a rebellious teenager anyway and I thought you know I've been doing this. I don't want to get on a bus. So I continued to take to TV and a lot of it was lost on you you just didn't want to get on the bus was that and I I know I was I was told to get on a bus but I was going to school fine and I had my friends I'd meet up with and I never got in trouble for not getting on the bus. My parents were a little you know they were just you know just get to school and do what you have to do and get attention in the schools was just amazing and I learned really quick. The first week or two to stay on the whites because I didn't you were a kid and I

was very uncomfortable at that because my best friends were black. I was raised I was a baby that I didn't understand that you mention. James Brown earlier that's so funny because I was a little girl and I miss him because my neighbors my neighbor was the deejay for Boston Jimmy so I go way back to all that stuff so I didn't understand any of this and you just learn really fast. Just get on the right side get on the white and shut your mouth all right and it upset me. That's how it was and it was very scary that was gabbing every day we have a fight. So we would have a fight. It's like the school got into a competition like OK well somebody had their right we're going to do something today and you just you just it was just it was scary it was horrible how we all graduated is kind of beyond me but we got through it but it was very uncomfortable for me. Because my parents were not those parents that said hey throw the rock. Yes yes. Yeah out of it.

And you don't say the N word my home that was just that was just works and me and you know my parents were totally not from that whole thing. Christine thank you. Thank you so much because you know you're are you're articulating a lot that was going on and I want to get my guests back into the conversation. Thank you very much for your call because there were many groups of people but you see where this young student was was forced to be on one side or the other. That's how polarized it was. And Ted landmark you ended up in a situation that was just the ultimate in irony. Personally there you are taking care of your business walking across City Hall Plaza at the time that all of this was at its height. On my way to an affirmative action meeting in City Hall ironically. Wow. And what happened and what happened next is this is the stuff of a 1977 Pulitzer Prize photograph where you are are attacked. Tell us about it. Well I was on my way to what seemed like a basic business meeting to try to get more. Workers of color are involved in construction projects around the city and as

misfortune would have it a group of students who just met in the city council chamber with Louise day Hicks who got them all fired up they were on their way to judge parities office anyway. And I happen to be just about the first African-American they encountered in a group of them thought that it would be a good idea to try to kill me and one of them used an American flag to do that. Unfortunate for me. Fortunately for me and I think for them it didn't it didn't really work out. But I think it also has to be remembered that there were many parts of the city at that point whether it was going to a sporting event at the Boston Garden or going to Fenway Park where African-Americans simply were not welcome to go and many neighborhoods way you certainly didn't walk at night and the tension in many Boston neighborhoods was very palpable. And I think you know to focus on what Kevin did I do think that. He certainly

knew the neighborhoods he'd been elected as much from the neighborhoods as anywhere else elected from the neighborhood. And he understood that he was not the only person who had to work on trying to bring peace back to those neighborhoods has to be remembered that he surrounded himself with a group of individuals who were very smart and working together as a group to try to bring peace back to the city. Boston is a very small city it's only one quarter the size of Brooklyn and it doesn't take long for everyone to get to know everyone else fairly well. So whatever the perception of his public face was at the time it has to remember that there was a lot of back channel work that was going on trying to work with the churches trying to work with the police trying to work with neighborhood leaders to try to bring people together and bring some peace back to the city. So when you think about this the double irony you know you've got the American flag being used as a tool to try to kill you literally as you've said. And then here we

are at City Hall Plaza. And this is where Kevin White's office is so you know you're overseeing all of this activity all of this in all of this happened right under the mayor's window and the first person to reach me was one of his key assistants I was cheap Jones who came flying down the stairs and I was on the plaza in just a moment too. Ask me who I was and to find out exactly what had gone on and offered the opportunity to meet with the mayor about concerns that I had and to his credit the mayor was open to that we did have a meeting shortly there after we got together with then Representative Mel King and a number of other community leaders and developed a list of things that we felt needed to be changed in the city not just around education but around employment opportunities who was working in filings

basement what the employment was in the city at that point in state government. And I would have to say that the mayor's willingness to sit and listen and to take seriously the kinds of concerns that had been expressed previously but he recognized that that was a moment when things clearly needed to get done is a measure of his willingness to confront a very difficult situation and to try to work to solve it. What I think is interesting you now you've explained what happened post that in terms of trying to work toward something else. But there is a continuing feeling among some who've been quoted a little quietly saying well you know I just don't feel that he rose to the occasion during this time and the result was that the city has a sort of stain and always fighting the reputation of being a racist city. And I'm quoting Adrian Walker's a column today in The Boston Globe when he's quoting Mel King. And he says I think people's perception of him is based on tall buildings to the extent

that that's the hallmark of a world class city that's what we have. For me the question is What impact did he have on the social issue that still nods at this country and of course he's referring to this time and the tall buildings references that you know can this White has been greatly acknowledges having taken Boston from kind of a country home to you know building out the landscape literally and making it a world class city. But how do you respond to that to Mel King's comment and in general given what you what had to happen after after your own incident headlands Martin. Well I worked on the campaign and worked with Mel at MIT and I think his points are very well taken. The question to my mind is always one of whether one person individually can heal an entire community by himself or herself. Clearly leadership has to be shown in terms of mobilizing a wide range of people across the community to

to come together to realize a common cause and to work on issues together. It's interesting looking back that virtually all of the cities the major civil services at that point the fire department the housing department the schools virtually all of the major areas of the budget were under some form of court order at that point as a result of lawsuits that had been filed because of blatant racism in the city. And that meant that in a number of respects the flexibility that an administrator has is already constrained and that the key to leadership at that point is the moral leadership that they can provide. Kelly if I could just piggyback on that a little bit. It was during that period that the mayor wanted some money

from the legislature. I think was about twenty five million dollars. And I held that money up. He was not able to get it. And as a result we had some ups and downs some fights but we also had some good moments. Because when I held that money up because of some of the social issues that you're talking about he wanted to know after a period of time what is he as Jeep Jones to call me to find out what I wanted. His assistant his assistant GM Jones was a deputy mayor the mayor and by the way to the credit of Kevin White he did give some people good positions for decision making in his administration. So jeep called me and said What do you want. I said I'll get back to you with the list. I got back to him with a list the list was I wanted to arrive and I wanted a black

superintendent. I wanted to community development block grant money and I wanted blacks raised up in the fire department into administration because there was none and there was no blacks. Superintendent in the city of Boston in the police department he got back to me after that and he said Billy Jeep and I negotiated and decided on Billy Celeste for the for Deer Island. Long and short of it is he accepted Billy for the commission of Deer Island. But he said I couldn't come to the swearing in. Well that was in consequential as far as I was concerned. So we got Billy. We got a rowboat. We got some blacks raised up in the fire department and we were able to get some community development block grant money. To me that was fairly significant. During

that period because he wanted that money. But he knew he was going to get it unless he did certain things. And that's the kind of negotiation I think that he enjoyed it he enjoyed that kind of fight back. But if you just let him have his way he was going just have his way. All right. So to Kevin White's legacy and changing the landscape both literally and figuratively and both from a social perspective. We'll continue our conversation. I'm talking about the late Kevin White Boston's four term mayor who was in office during a very racially charged time in the city's history. What's that legacy. We'll talk about it. I'm Kalee Crossley and you can join the conversation at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. You can write to our Facebook page or send us a tweet. You're listening to eighty nine point seven. WGBH Boston Public Radio. Coming.

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about the conduit. They would talk about the six counties to Minnesota and then you then oh ok that's cool. But now a list of all the candidates will be when Boehner comes along and. They will move Florida's Venezuelan voters next time on the world. Coming up at 3 o'clock here at eighty nine point seven WGBH. The WGBH member card pages of your member card is good for discounts on our chosen Burley's haters Yende drugs ecological education festivals getaways home insulation jazz joints kicks for the kid's luggage music both new and old pumpkin pancakes while the red strolling towards unused volumes of Virginia Woolf and X-Men yogurts and Zipcar. Learn how much it pays to support public broadcasting online at WGBH dot org. Great question and it's a great question and that's a great question. It's a great question. Rick great question on fresh air you'll hear unexpected questions and unexpected answers this afternoon at 2:00. You're on eighty nine point seven.

I'm Cally Crossley. If you're just tuning in we're talking about Kevin White. Boston's four term mayor who died last week. We're looking at White's legacy in the context of the busing riots and inflamed racial tensions that dominated Boston in the mid 70s. I'm joined by Kenneth Guscott. He was president of the Boston branch from 1963 to 1068. I'm also joined by Bill Owens. He was a state senator during these Tamil chillis times and Ted landmark Also with us. He's president of the Boston architectural college. He's also the subject of the 977 Pulitzer Prize winning photograph that captured racial tension during the busing riots. You can join the conversation at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 seventy 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. What is your remembrance of that era. Do you recognize that Boston today. 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Joining us on the

line is Donna begin She directs the Boston busing desegregation project. Welcome Donna. Thank you. I wanted to get You've heard from I guess now say very clearly that Kevin White's leadership was important but no one person can do anything. What we know of that time is that Boston was left with this sort of stain and a reputation as a quote racist city. How do you see the legacy of Kevin White with relationship to Boston's racial climate and its legacy. Well I think he was a part of this. Just a part and I agree with so much that's been said here today and I think this is a conversation that we as a city to have we need to learn from this history. The blossoms I think there's the segregation project doesn't seek to judge the mayor or any of the leadership at that time. We want to learn from the era to learn together what is the leadership in me to make the transition that will bring equity and quality public education for the 21st century to all in the city regardless of race and class. And we don't think we can do that unless we

understand the depth of the Sicily that's being talked about here today. So Donna what's the key lesson you would think it needs to come out of that time. Because as we as I've said here a lot of people listening today don't have a clue about any of this is their first time even having a little bit of a taste of what happen. Well the key the key lesson is that we were we were trying to trying to address something very complex that goes to the very roots of our history as a as a country let alone as a city. And that you know it's that time was saying it wasn't about bussing it was about desegregation which was a strategy for quat to get quality education and to get equity in the city in a many many ways that erroneously error of the desegregation. The entire city in terms of leadership and access to resources. And so what I think the thing that we need to do is to really learn from each other together. What happened during that time as a way to seeing how we are resegregating in terms of race and in

terms of economics. It's only by really a week that I think bots have a unique opportunity to look back at this period and to come up with some real real new understanding based on having clear understanding our history about how to tackle these big issues that we're facing in terms of race and class and our city and and our nation. All right. Senator Bill Owens right after that attack on on Ted's landmark on the plaza. You know you spoke to the crowd at the time and said something that was really poignant at the time but also reflected a lot of black people's thoughts I'm just going to play it for us from our archives and this is you in 1976 speaking to the crowd of people of color are not safe to come here to Boston and we're asking people across the country off color to stay away. I. I wish your call for all persons of color to band together. The way it is now that this bizarre situation

about right. Right so that was you in 1976 and you know you tell folks just don't even come here. So given the legacy given what Donna said there's lessons to be learned we have a unique opportunity to all of you how would you characterize race relations in Boston today from the legacy that was left there at the time that Kevin White was mayor. Two things excuse me I don't think we can really put it on Kevin White per se. I think that as I look back Kevin did a fairly decent job of putting certain people in key positions around the city. I don't know all of his intent during that period but he did it nonetheless for Mrs. G. Jones is still a legacy in this city and he is still influential in what happens in city hall and put the

BRACA in particular. Bill Celeste was the best. We're most informed. Supervisory police person in the city of Boston that related to our community and people I've heard men say I don't want to give a wristed but if I have to get arrested I want Billy Celeste to be the one to arrest me because I'm only cutting you off because I want to get everybody and I'm running out of time. And I think you made two excellent points get got Scott quickly what really people should think about is how the leadership in that city manipulate segments of the community to fight each other. I know that when you look at it self Boston and the blacks were orchestrated to fight each other. And I say that because when but what Paul Parks made his

study all of the resources that were allocated for the school department the sole Boston got half as much as rocks for a gut. And it was done because they wanted to have the fight between the South Boston Irish and the rocks per blacks when the real issue was who is going to run the city and govern the city. OK I'm stopping you there. That's an excellent point Deadlands Mark. I think the key is this is a good moment to look at Kevin's tenure as mayor as the start of a period of healing in the city and there is a great deal of healing that has to go on nationally at this point. And I think some lessons to be learned from how Kevin deployed people and from the passion that he expressed towards moral action that had to be taken. And I think we have much to learn from that.

Thank you to all of my guests for this informed conversation. This is the Calla Crossley Show where production of WGBH Boston Public Radio.