WGBH Radio; The Callie Crossley Show

I'm callin Crossley This is the Cali cross-link show. We're talking about law school this year more students are graduating from law school than ever. They're saddled with six figure student loan debt and zero job prospects. Now the Massachusetts Bar Association is stepping in looking at the best way to reboot our law schools and they're finding inspiration in the health care sector. Unlike law school medical school and dental school are harder to get into and those who do make the cut either go through residencies or on the job training. They get real work experience that makes them much more likely to land a job fresh out of school. From there we challenge the Center for Disease Control's statement that there's no zombie apocalypse. One look at the films coming out of Tinseltown and it's clear. Zombies are more alive than ever. Up next from rethinking higher ed to the walking dead. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi Singh. The markets are pulling

back his hope again gives way to extreme caution by investors who have been closely watching how Europe navigates its turbulent financial waters. Optimism arose out of Greece after Sunday's parliamentary victory went to the party that backed sweeping spending cuts and tax increases to secure Greece's international bailout. But that optimism didn't last long as NPR's Eric Westervelt reports from Berlin. Markets rallied early today after the conservative New Democracy Party finished first in Sunday's Greek vote. New Democracy wants Greece to stay in the euro zone and its victory fuelled initial optimism but the rally didn't last as focus quickly turned back to Spain's huge economic and fiscal problems. Spain's borrowing costs again went up above 7 percent today the level that forced Portugal Greece and Ireland to seek bailouts. Spain and Italy some of the largest economies in the eurozone are seen as too big to fail or bail out. Both countries remain under market pressure due to high borrowing costs fueled growth and debt

problems. Eric Westervelt NPR News Berlin. Europe's debt crisis was expected to top the agenda at the G20 summit in Mexico. A draft communique urges bold action from European nations. Congress returns to work this week and lawmakers are facing deadlines on key legislation one bill would keep interest rates on federally subsidized student loans from doubling to six point eight percent. Another would maintain funding for the nation's highway and bridge building program keeping construction workers on the job. NPR's Craig Windham reports Congress has two weeks to complete action on both measures. Congressional leaders from both parties say they want to hold the line on student loan rates for another year but they have not been able to agree on how to pay the nearly 6 billion dollar cost on the 109 billion dollar highway funding bill. House and Senate conferees have been trying to come up with a compromise for weeks now. The main point of contention is whether the measure will include a requirement that the White House approve construction of the Keystone Excel

oil pipeline in Nebraska. A provision aimed at attracting conservative support. House Speaker John Boehner has raised the possibility of another short term funding extension if there's no deal on a two year measure. Craig Windham NPR News Washington. Mitt Romney is campaigning today in Wisconsin which no Republican presidential candidate has won since 1984. It's Romney's first trip to the state since Republican Governor Scott Walker survived a recall vote and bolstered Republican confidence about Romney's chances in November. A fire that has destroyed more than 180 homes in the northern Colorado mountains is steadily growing. More than 700 firefighters are taking on the High Park blaze. It has grown to more than 87 square miles. At last check on Wall Street the Dow is down 30 points to twelve thousand seven thirty seven. This is NPR from the WGBH radio newsroom in Boston. I'm Judy you will with these local stories we're following the state today appealed the Nuclear Regulatory Commission decision to Renu the operating license of the Pilgrim nuclear

power plant in Plymouth for 20 years. Attorney General Martha Coakley said the NRC abused its discretion by relicensing Pilgrim without fully considering safety issues raised by the accident at the Fukushima nuclear plant in Japan following the earthquake and tsunami their NRC officials have said the six and a half year review period for the plant's renewal application was the longest and most thorough and that agency's history. The appeal was found in the U.S. Court of Appeals in Boston. The accused killer of a 22 year old Northeastern University student murdered in her Mission Hill apartment four years ago was ordered held without bail after pleading not guilty to first degree murder today in Suffolk Superior Court. Prosecutors say Cornell Smith went to Rebecca Paine's apartment and shot her several times and a case of mistaken identity. Rebecca's mother Virginia Payne told reporters that it was heart wrenching to look at Smith and see the reason why her daughter is not here. The state's largest health insurers say they will keep two popular provisions of the federal health care law even if the

Supreme Court overturns it. The insurers tell the Boston Globe they'll continue to allow young adults to remain on their parents plans until they're 26 years old and they'll cover some preventative services with no co-pay. Support for NPR comes from the doors do charitable foundation supporting the Performing Arts the environment medical research and the prevention of child abuse. Boston sports the Sox have tonight off after defeating the Chicago Cubs 7 to 4 last night clouds and sun this afternoon highs in the 60s. Cloudy skies overnight lows in the 50s. Sun in clouds again tomorrow highs in the 70s Wednesday sunny very hot highs in the 90s right now at 64 in Boston. I'm Judy you will. You'll find more news at WGBH news dot org. Good afternoon I'm Kelly Crossley. We're talking about law school with a focus on why so many students with law degrees can't find a job. Eric Parker You've been studying this for about six months with the task force. What was the tipping point of concern that made

your group say hey we've got to look at this in a more detailed way. Well I think it really began with a conversation that I had probably that goes back about a year ago with the current president of the mass Bar Association Dick Campbell. Who is a terrific trial lawyer in the current president. And I think that many of us who have been practicing in my case over 25 years noticed in the past I would say three to four years a fairly dramatic downturn in the available in available opportunities for young lawyers. And it got to the point where the conversations we would have in our office with recent grads which used to be Oh you'll get a job don't worry you'll get a job and we really felt that way to became. Wow. It's been a long time. What if you tried and we had pretty much exhausted our list and now you really seem concerned. Well Lynn mustard you are part of this task force the part that you focused on was really about really solution oriented I don't want to get ahead of ourselves and start talking about those details yet but I want to get a sense from you of your overarching feeling about what the

issue what was at stake here. Well I think what we realized when we started doing this was that this is a problem that needs to be addressed from start to finish soup to nuts that this isn't going to be solved by the bar. It's not going to be solved by the law schools it's going to also involve the students. I think one of the things that we talked about in our group was mentoring students before they go to law school is this really what you want to do because you don't have a guaranteed job you're not going to make $200000 automatically. So I think that was one of the things that we realized that this is a broad problem. Everybody in the profession needs to take part. Let me ask before we move to other things is this particular to Massachusetts because we've got the nine schools Eric Parker and 16 more if you broaden out to the whole area. Right and you know first well first of all the mandate that we were given of studying it was to study it on the mass within as it affected Massachusetts. Yes well there are some unique features that make it particularly tough here. We have nine law schools and a lot of people think that's too

many other people disagree. But we have nine and we are fed by probably somewhere around five or six more from the surrounding states. A lot of those states the students tend to migrate to Boston rather than the other way around. So you have effectively 15 or 16 law schools feeding this market and that is create that creates a difficult situation. Massachusetts I don't know if you know this but only after New York we have the highest ratio of non lawyers to lawyers in the United States. Really yeah that's really true and I mean the District of Columbia which is in this state technically is first but that's because so many people with law degrees go into different areas that don't necessarily involve practice the practice of law. But new Massachusetts only follows New York on the ratio and our economy is a fraction of the New York economy. So the opportunities in New York are a whole different you know ratio but yeah we have. A very competitive scene here and nine law school start helping.

But but on the broader level though we also acknowledge that the legal market in general has contracted and some of those jobs are never coming back even when we do see some bettering of the economy and some expansion some of those jobs are never coming back they've been outsourced or paralegals are doing them and there just won't ever be lawyers in those jobs. So in some ways we are addressing things that are a national issue. Let's talk about that a little bit more the jobs have been outsourced that may have in the past gone to the young lawyers. Well for one I know their e-discovery companies that are looking at Discovery where is that used to be an entry level job for somebody looking researching looking at documents from the opposing side and they will send you cartons and cartons of things. And they used to have young lawyers sit in a room looking cataloguing picking out keywords. Now there are companies that do that they scan all the documents they put in keywords and it does a search for you. So those jobs are diminishing as far as the outsourcing you can get legal research done internationally other states. So those are the kinds of things that are

that are not coming back to to the way the technology is developed. And to be clear when you say outsource you really mean outsource like to India outsource. Yes I do. So I mean that's a that's a big hit of talent. Waste it really because they don't they don't get a chance to to do those job and skill building. That's a big one. I mean because this was where you began doing when you can when you graduate from law school. I don't think we've reached the point yet where it's it's completely and outsourced I think to some of the largest firms are doing it but it is it does represent a trend I think to some extent. All right now you said this really Eric Parker You said this is really not about just about law schools and it isn't. But we've got to start there and talk about you know how many people are going to law school. We just mentioned how many schools are in the area so that's times however many. And law schools seem to be though one piece of this puzzle that are unaffected by the numbers of people who are coming in and yet going out without jobs. Would you explain that a bit.

Well I mean certainly one thing we we're well aware of at the mat when the mare at the mass Bar Association was that we don't have any authority over the law schools the law schools do not answer to the Massachusetts Bar Association they don't answer to this report or to any of the members of the task force. So to whatever extent that the recommendations and suggestions of the task force were simply that these were studied solutions that we thought made sense to recommend. But when it comes to the law schools they they're in business to sell seats. Pure and simple. I mean look they're highly ethical people. I think it would be I think it's it's ridiculous to argue otherwise they have the best interests of their students but they don't change easily. And the business does not allow for just the certain you know cut and certain number of seats just because somebody's saying that we have too many lawyers. Well having but your having said that let's let's note that law schools for many institutions are really the quote unquote cash cows that they may support other pieces

of an institution. It makes sense to have that part so that everybody all boats are lifted as as a result of who goes to law school. No doubt about it law schools are profit centers. And there has been a lot of criticism about that. In fact even on the giving level I've heard feedback from people saying that they're having a difficult time making a donation to the law school because they don't know where those dollars end up they end up in a different program. Those are all fair criticism. But the fact is law schools are also not in the business of saying no to a qualified candidate who wants to study law who can make a mature decision about where they're going to go after law school I mean why not you know extend that to fellas to philosophy grad school or to music school. Maybe you won't get a job in music should we decline you know your application so or reduce our seats. It's a very difficult question. Join the conversation we're talking about so many students many law schools here in Massachusetts and folks with law degrees who can't find a job. We want to hear from you

8 7 7 3 0 1 800 78 7 7 3 0 1. Eighty nine 70 law students and lawyers we really want to hear from you. 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. You can write to our Facebook page or send us a tweet at Kelly Crossley. There are many questions here it's a complex scenario as Eric Parker has been careful to say. And we're getting into some of those right now but I'm curious for those of you listening if you decided to go to law school because there were snow worked for you so you figure it is kind of an ironic situation you go to law school can't get a job and then you get out of law school you still can't get a job. Wondering if there are those of you listening who are in that group 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 8 9 7 8 7 7 3 0 1. Eighty nine. Seventy. So one of the things that I wanted to that I learned from it is I'm getting ready for this conversation is that some law schools are a B.A. accredited That's the American Bar Association.

Others aren't and those that aren't tend to be a little bit cheaper and more affordable for people so that these students who graduate from those schools don't come out with this much debt but we should talk about how much debt these students are coming out with. Those who have no job prospects when can you speak to that. Yeah. Well I graduated from law school with a lot of debt but I worked two years of it and so I was able to reduce my loans that way I also worked for five bucks an hour. When I graduated from law school here I was a J.D. had passed Baria was working for five bucks an hour no job too small. But you know law school can't be a dumping ground for those people who can't make it on a B.A.. You have to really want to do this you are submitting yourself to I don't know is it $200000. Well he's a hundred fifty thousand dollars is a thousand a year. This is what we're hearing from we've got a number of stories here about people graduating with a B.A. with those kinds of numbers and and this is what you're telling us here. I want to read a

comment we got from our Facebook page this is from Caroline. She says I went to Massachusetts School of Law to hand over their tuitions roughly half that at Suffolk and other area law schools and they offer a flexible course schedule to accommodate those who wanted to pursue a degree but who have inescapable work and or family commitments particularly helpful to me because I have two small children. In my case I was lucky enough to have a job at a small firm lined up before I started school smart. I think it's very important to have well-trained lawyers in our society. But I agree that the average law school tuition is too high. Lower tuition enables graduates to pursue jobs in the public sector instead of being pressured into seeking the ever more elusive high paying corporate jobs. So there's a couple points that she makes here. She went for the reduced tuition she was able to do some other things in her life. It's important to have well-trained lawyers. I think those of us who are outside the profession may think you go to law school you come out aren't you trained. This is not the case Eric Parker. Oh no it's not.

In fact you know this may sound that it's amazing law is one of the few professions that you can come out of law school having passed the bar and go right to a jury trial and try a case having never been in a courtroom in your life. It sounds crazy but it's absolutely true. Imagine just for a moment being on a gurney in an operating room and your surgeon walks in and says So this is the operating room. Let me yeah there's the anesthesia machine just like on Grey's Anatomy. I mean it's just it's all look so real. But the fact is that is true. You can graduate from law school. You can pass the bar. You can walk across the street with with a license to practice and represent somebody in a courtroom having never been in there before. Now that's not to say we're not seeing changes for at Suffolk University my alma mater. And I'm extremely proud of it. Has one of the best clinical programs and a lot of law schools right now are doing amazing things with their clinical programs because they're taking a page from they're saying we've got to introduce more

practical skills because we need a more qualified candidate when they leave. Right. Done in the damn in the car sorry. Go ahead please you're on the Cali Crossley Show at 9.7 WGBH. I tell you I heard the analysis Howard could going to see it and I just talked to Eric actually birthed as a paralegal at training working to confirm I started practicing it years ago and I'm going through the strain then that's good. I'm all for a credit for example of a trial lawyer but he has the point he just made is critical. There was a change in the model of why lawyers were educated. Several several years ago the one away from the old formula of lawyers working to be more of an academic study and that did some great but in terms of experience with the law but it also aren't because they came out of will but that any grounding in any of those skills or notion of what it meant like to be a lawyer. I think schools really

need to stress used adjuncts like myself I'm an adjunct professor not a law school work but also use of adjunct and in classes that stressed the practical aspect in this aspect of the practice of law as well as the theory of law and the notion of what a lawyer does because it'll do suit two things I think and I like very much to hear your opinion on first of all. It will give the outgoing the graduating lawyer a sense of what it's like to be a lawyer so they. It actually is hard to practice. But the other thing is it will give them a real world sense. What act like you know up for them or not. I think your program but trust me it didn't work at farms for example like Northeastern program very well. Well I thank you very much for your call and you're leaving us right into Len's muster who this was her part of the task force work you're talking about exactly that. Right Lynn. Yes well we talked. I want to actually say one thing

which is what Dan said was that one of the things that actually my alma mater is doing over at the law school is that they're taking their theoretical classes say a trusts and estates class and they are tacking on a writing component so that you're not just learning theoretically about trust in a state but you maybe writing wills and so instead of getting three credits for the class you're getting four credits because you're doing is writing component and so that's one way that the law schools can take a role in this and have a task within that academics say exactly. So although one of the things that we are stressing in the report is that there should be enough slots in clinics for every student that wants to take one. I'm not sure that that's the case right now. But the but you're your point is that there really has to be some practicality incorporated into the academic learning. Yeah yeah OK. More and talk about that more when we come back we're talking about law school about this about the huge number of students that are graduating from law school. They are saddled with student loan debt and they're struggling to

find work. Here with me to talk about this are Eric Parker and Lynn muster. They are both lawyers who were on the task force on law of the economy and under employment for the Massachusetts Bar Association. You can join us at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 seventy 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 7. Law students lawyers we want to hear from you. If you work at a law school weigh in at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8 8 7 7 3 0 1. Eighty nine seventy. Lucky enough to get a job read a school give us a call. The conversation continues on WGBH Boston Public Radio. We love our contributors. That means you and Elsa Dorfman Cambridge portrait photographer are still clicking with the jumbo format Polaroid 20 by 24 analog camera an original Polaroid film online at Elsa Dorfman dot com. That's Elsa Dorfman dot com. And Blake and associates at Old City Hall a Boston law firm with over three decades of experience in trust law estate planning and

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beagle to WGBH. It will take care of the paperwork schedule to pick up a new tax deduction all while supporting the programs you depend on. From NPR News this is ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. 8 5 5 4 2 6 2 4 0 6 local issues local talk a two and a half year old company in Boston is advancing in its quest to make commercial vans and trucks greener and more fuel of yours. Eighty nine point seven from WGBH. Boston Public Radio. Welcome back. I'm Cally Crossley this year more students graduated from law school than ever before. They are saddled with student loan debt and can't find jobs. But some people are luckier than others. Katz fresh out of law school and bang on cash to cash a check. Jim Am I going to cover I'm not. Ready to. Give.

Up. That of course is how the world works on cable TV that's from the series Damages. Joining me for a reality check are Eric Parker and Lynn mustard their lawyers and as part of a Massachusetts Bar Association task force they looked into what law schools could do to stop the glut of students graduating without job prospects. You can join the conversation at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 seventy 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Which among you who among you had the two million dollar contracts such as the person did in damages give us a call 8 7 7 3 0 170. You can write to our Facebook page or send me a tweet at Kelly Crossley. So Eric Parker you were having a hard time stifling the laughter at that clip. I do know and you know you know the serious side of that is that there is a problem with the expectations of students for example at the college level thinking that law school is going to generate. These enormous salaries right out of the gate. And I think this is a personal observation we talked about I think a little bit on the taskforce but it's something that I feel strongly about and that is the role of television and Hollywood in this

problem and that is you know when you when you watch a medical show whether it's Grey's Anatomy or one of the other shows medical students are typically portrayed as scrappers they sleep on gurneys they wear scrubs they drive broken down cars. But the subtext there is always that they'll have their day they'll go on to become great doctors and and they'll do just fine lawyers on television and in motion pictures are frequently depicted as being in Armani suits three minutes after they take the bar examination and go on to make killer salaries and Dr. Maza Roddy's and so forth and it's it's false it's almost dangerous in the sense of what it Lors it it creates an expectation by young lawyers that they're going to make that kind of money. And it's just not true. Lynn before you weigh in weigh in on this image problem. I want to quote from a blog post by a young woman named Angel the lawyer. It's in title but I did everything right. And she says this part of this post portraying lawyers in such an irresponsible manner is just as bad as having movie actors do smoking roles

both cause children to buy into something dangerous going to law school and pulling out 100 K plus in loans and getting lung cancer. So she was going on and on and had quite a bit of response to her post from other people who found themselves in the same position. Let's talk about the damage that these portrayals have. Well I think what that has fueled is a sense of entitlement that you go to law school you are now entitled to a well-paying job. You're not even entitled to any job just like any other profession you take your training in you you go to school and I think some of that entitlement is what is also fueling the lawsuits against the schools saying well you know I graduated and you had these employment statistics that told me I was going to get a job and now I don't have one and it's your fault. Maybe it's a generational thing I don't like to go to that. But you aren't entitled to that when you graduate from law school. So you know you can do everything right but you also need to do other things. It's not just about when you graduate there you get your

job you have to network. You've got to go around to meet people you've got to make your connections. And I think you have to understand the marketplace is limited. Exactly. There could be 2000 students and 600 jobs. And I'm from Newton Go ahead please join the callee Crossley Show WGBH eighty nine point seven. Kai Kelly how are you doing fine. I graduated from law school in 2000 and I'm bucking the trend a little bit here because I unlike some matches are working that I didn't go to law school in the area. So please keep in mind that a lot of the people who practice law in Massachusetts not only didn't go to law school Massachusetts but like me with the law or California or the Midwest or all kinds of other people. But what I've noticed is that a lot of the summer jobs and a lot of the jobs that newly graduated lawyers used to be doing for money. They're now being asked of you or nothing. So if you look at if you look at job posting websites for law school a lot of the jobs that I have had salaries sometimes a good salary

sometimes just a meager stipend are now all in their positions or quote unquote internships and even like attorneys are being asked to do internships or solo practitioners a for profit firm or nothing whatsoever not even traveling money. Hold on Adam I'm going to get Eric to weigh in because both he and Lynn were nodding as you spoke Eric. Well first of all I agree 100 percent with the caller that we we are seeing a lot of of formally paying jobs turned into internships and I think the pushback on that if you've been reading these these stories is the fair wage act and you know the fact that you can't turn every page off into an internship so I think it's a bit of a dangerous and I think will be a short lived trend but I think it's also a sign of the times we're in a terrible way right now law firms are seeing work decline. And what they're saying essentially is we can't pay for what we used to get I think that they have to keep their eye on the law here in terms of what they can do. But it is a sign that the dollars just may not be there hopefully in the short term to pay what we're formally paying jobs.

I want to know that I didn't understand this scenario at all but I have heard just in my travels that. Partners were being laid off at firms so you know if you laid off your partners it's really hard down below a partner level because law firms themselves are shrinking because of the recession particularly but I guess other reasons as well. That's true and it and there's a relative relatively short and if you don't see partners leave off that often but absolutely we've been hearing stories like that. Well they make a lot of money. And so what good is it to lay off you know three secretaries you know making forty or fifty thousand dollars when you can lay off a partner who is bringing in five hundred thousand dollars in salary. So Nick from Boston you're on the Calla Crossley Show Go ahead please. Oh well the question was kind of answered earlier but I was just curious about how so many. It is going to last or is the motivation really money. That is a very that's a very interesting question and I'll give you the very short answer to

that. I think to some extent law like medicine like a lot of professions are gateways for families especially immigrant families. We have families who you know the idea that this was the first student for example who went to college and then went on to law school near source of enormous pride in the community that family and what happens is they made nor the financial realities. Unfortunately they may actually say you know what mom or dad might say you just get into law school I'll figure out a way to get it paid we'll borrow the money we'll do what we have to do. But it is an opportunity for that child to go on to do something great. And I think you know it's a tough one because to convince that family that you know a lot may not turn into that is not an easy one. Ultimately I believe it will. And Tom one Linds earlier point we want people who are desperate who desperately want to become lawyers to go to law school. Now once you say well I couldn't think of anything else. And that happens all too often in law much less in medicine I believe but in law you often see college students at the end of the road at the end of the line

in the senior year saying you know what I applied to law school and figure it out from there. And if that family is borrowing heavily to make that dream happen it can be it can be very difficult when reality sets in. We have somebody who wants to know why the oversupply of lawyers hasn't led to a decline in legal fees. That's that's an even more complicated one I. Well I think it will. I think again things like this don't happen overnight. But I'll tell you one thing we are seeing and that is and this plays into the under employment aspect. We're seeing large the largest law firms no longer interested in first and second your associates because their customer meaning their client is saying Don't hand me a first or second year associate who's going to learn about my problem I'm paying you $500 an hour you get me someone who knows how to solve my problem. And so they're using those students in other ways or they're not hiring they're hiring laterals at three four and five years out and that's creating a problem.

So why would you charge two hundred and then just to have an associate. It's just not the way they're set up another one of those but I think what you may see is you may see that same client go to a smaller boutique firm and say I can pay 350 to 450 for a partner who's been doing it for 30 years. I still can do it in one hour. Yeah yeah. Where is the associate maybe half the raid is taking 5 times as long. That's a good point. I want to go back to something you said just to make sure that we get it on the table and that is that law students Lynn Some have filed lawsuits against schools saying you promised me this to Erick's point about the family saving up to send the school to the children to school over there their daughters or sons to law school thinking they're going to give them a leg up I think in two and probably a different class middle class but also a professional class and the investment is not. They might think it would be at the end so to speak about the folks that have spiled lawsuit and as anybody lawsuit has anybody been successful.

So far I think there was one or two dismissals and the rest are still pending. But I think that's still part of that entitlement. I'm not sure what each of the suits is about and if some of it has to do with employment data and that it is a part of what we're talking about that in the report is that telling us that 90 percent of your graduates are employed but are they lawyer ing. We know people who are serving and that's with a tray in their hand the right kind of serving that's not employed. So I thought there also is a responsibility on the part of the law students to readjust their expectations about what's going to happen the law schools are not responsible. For your get it. Yeah and I know for myself it wouldn't have mattered to me. I still want to go to law school. So Lynn to your point Lynn muster the part of the study the task force that you took on was what to do now what what what what's available what how can we think

creatively about helping these young people that come as some mostly young people to come out of law school. No job prospects in a law firm but well what we did is we catalogued a variety of things that new lawyers can do. Some provide remuneration and some provide supervision some provide referrals of clients but it's a way to enhance your skills while you're waiting for whatever fulltime job might be coming down the road and enhance your resume because sitting in front of your computer at home sending out linked in resumes is not entirely going to get you a job. But if you are working for the volunteer lawyers project or working as a bar advocate or getting referrals you are you are producing something you are first while being part of the profession you're meeting people you're networking you're if you're getting supervision. Better yet because that's something that will make you more marketable when you apply for whatever fulltime job might come your way.

Some of the messages getting through Eric the numbers of people taking the L SATs the preparatory exams gone down what would you say to someone considering law school at this moment. I'd say do some serious thinking. Ask yourself whether or not this is really what you want to do. I'd say go out and get practical experience wherever you can get it. Whether that means just being in a law firm environment so you can see what the day is like. Read the journals you know get interest. If you're if you're this is what you're going to do with your life be good at what you do. I'm a big believer in that. Read the journals be current understand what's going on and don't make it a default choice I couldn't think of anything else so I went to law school I think if that's what if you make that choice for that reason I think that at least in this climate you're that you're going to be a cut you could be a casualty and should you also pay attention to the curriculum at the law school you're thinking about such that there are the kind of clinical opportunities practical hands on stuff that used that both of you say is so vital.

Absolutely. And you know what the Linz group did so beautifully was in terms of cataloging was to show how many things there are out there that you can be doing right now that we know are not being seized upon I mean just because there are too many lawyers for the number of paying jobs doesn't mean we're not in huge demand for legal services in this state. There are plenty of people out there who cannot afford a lawyer and they need help. And on top of that that law student or that graduate needs experience what a wonderful opportunity to marry a need with an opportunity to learn. And so we've got to fit the pieces together better. And I think we will. Because you've got wonderful people working on this. The deans of the law schools are committed to it. The legal profession is committed to it. And I think we will get it but that's what this report was designed to do to help move those pieces together. Lester 30 seconds Lynn to you. Oh I wasn't prepared for that. But I think we we just provided this great list of things that people can do right now. And that's what's important I don't want people at home sitting in from their computers they

can be working and doing limited system representation and some of these things will get money so we can help with their graduate school debt which I understand that they all have. But back to your question about the curriculum. Absolutely. I think that would be the question to ask when you show up at the law schools is do you have enough clinical slots if I want one. Excellent Well it's very interesting you know there's any number of lawyer jokes I could make about too many lawyers I did every day. All right. If that's correct that's it it is. Thank you so much for talking to us about this. We have a diary about a law school about rebooting the way we're structured and how we educate lawyers I've been joined by Eric Parker and then muster. Eric Parker is co-founder of Parker law firm Lynn muster is a staff attorney for the Massachusetts appeals court. They were both part of the Massachusetts Bar Associations panel on employment for a recent law school graduates. Up next something completely different. Film critic Karen Daley weighs in on the zombie apocalypse. The

Centers for Disease Control says it's not coming. Hollywood says otherwise. The conversation continues on WGBH Boston Public Radio. WGBH programs exist because of you and New England Conservatory and Northeastern University presenting Boston guitar fest back to Bach June 20th through 24th with Elliot Fisk Oscar Delia the Amadeus guitar duo and more Boston guitar fest dot org and the Massachusetts Teachers Association and Hebrew senior life sponsoring news and talk on eighty nine point seven. To learn how WGBH can benefit your business visit WGBH dot org slash sponsorship. On FRESH AIR. You'll hear the questions you wish you could have asked to people like Tom Kenny the voice

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not in Rome or Cairo but in Waltham Massachusetts this afternoon on ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. Welcome back. I'm Kelly Crossley and turning things over to comedian Stephen Colbert to set up this conversation. Cannibalism is the hot new trend. Folks there is a terrifying new name for this horror this zombie apocalypse the apocalypse the possibility of a zombie apocalypse like I need to see still some nice popcorn a fist that also don't be well guaranteed. Well I just love the fact I'm coming in after the lawyers. But is sure I mean you know do you realize that there is a thing called the zombie a con to me. You know and the zombie a con to me generates over five point five billion dollars a year in the United States alone. And this is

people going to films about zombies like people are going to be going to films. Five hundred million dollars people just buying T-shirts off a cafepress. It is people doing you know zombie walks. It's the entire economy of zombie Saami films everything games you name it I had no idea. It's big. Well it's not dead yet. Well we have to say that the Centers for Disease Control sort of kicked it up a notch last year when they did kind of a graphic novel saying be prepared for the zombies now they thought it was a tongue in cheek thing and their focus was just being prepared for an emergency. But it just fed into this whole excitement about zombies. Well you know when you look at zombies you have to it's an amazing arc. It really is and the modern zombie is completely different than what we started off with back in nineteen twenty six with the book magic island that came out the first introduced zombies and then a couple years later Bela Lugosi stars in the first zombie movie called White Zombie.

Now we have to listen to a clip from that Celeste just right now take a listen to it from the 1932 film White Zombie starring Bela Lugosi. I thought I'd die. I'm going to pick an icon I'm betting on the borderline between life and brain dead. Why somebody obeys the unholy commands the third team announced as mindless creatures carry out his crusade with terror explodes in horror and hard quick. Sunday. Yeah that is you know Cordy is that is I didn't realize that there was a little more to this than that there's a sort of a racial overtone to this I had no idea and a sexual one too. Yeah if you take just put in the back you might when you start looking at zombie films start thinking white women because when you start looking at especially the early ones it's

all about women white women being controlled by men. OK and then there is the cultural thing where it's the whites. Culture civilization against the pagan black civilization that has somehow discovered something that the whites don't know. So there's an exotic quality to it and it all lures people in. It's really interesting that White Zombie to me kind of comes at a time when women were going into the work for force women were getting the vote and all of a sudden men had to control women it was the only way that they could actually control women so they made him part of the undead. So they made him a part of the so to speak. Now we should be clear that there's a difference between zombies and vampires. That was confusing to me for for a while but the zombies want to eat your flesh and it's this is all spread through a bite infection and they don't speak well you know that's true. But when you take a look at the traditional zombies when we're talking about you know the white zombies and then later I walked with a zombie and even some further along you know

the zombies didn't necessarily bite. They were under control and they weren't you know flesh eaters that came later. That really came in one thousand sixty eight when George Romero made knight a living dead and completely changed what the zombie was all about. And even then when you look at Night Of The Living Dead there is the star is a white woman. OK she's the one who's the focus of the zombie attack but the hero is a black man. And it all has to do with the fact that society is collapsing around people and becomes a survivalist moment and they're all trying to band together as society just completely collapses around them and the zombies do eat the flesh. Here's a clip from the night of the Living Dead. Night. Of the living. They believe I'm being played on tape so I'm living.

You're obviously only for the. Keep. The copy be ready. I just have to come in and say usually the black people are killed off in our films very early on but not in this one. He ends up getting dead at the end but that was one of the statements that was making being made by the zombie film or by that not a living dead end later zombie films is that they become social commentaries and George Romero sequel to that Dawn Of The Dead has to deal with consumerism. And again there is the you know the zombies are out there they're biting people in the people they've become zombies again which is a complete change from White Zombie and I walked with a zombie and they are all going to the mall because it's something they remember. It's like the great unwashed. It's like they're all zombies but now they're going to the mall. So how do you explain before I'm going to listen to a clip from the dead but how do you explain sort of moving the zombie interest moving from

horror fan folk to now mainstream has to do with our fear. I mean this is the thing that horror films do better than any other genre in Hollywood is to start explaining our different fears so when you look at even the vampires and what they they represented and the whole Twilight phenomenon. You take a look at what zombies are representing. And it's so in depth as far as I'm concerned I think I could dig into this for hours and hours and hours and talk for hours and hours now and hours on it. But things like. You don't know who's going to be and zombie anyone could become a zombie and attack you. Your mom could get bitten and you wouldn't know it and all of a sudden she's attacking your mother. The person who knows you better than anybody else. The person next to you in a cubicle in an office building could easily become a zombie and attack you. So there's a set where there's one sense you are feeling completely isolated because you can't trust anybody. That is one of our fears in society. Then there's the fear of like well how is it being spread is being spread by viral viral. In

some cases like in 28 days later or Again viral through your blood when people eat you know bite into you. So there's a fear of viruses. And when you look at the AIDS epidemic and the ebola and some of these other things that are out there that are scaring the bejesus out of us the zombies pick take that up. Then there's the destruction of society and communities. I had somebody I was looking at one of these things and I believe it that zombies represent the 99 percent. Oh interesting. And when you look at the economy when I just mentioned five point seventy five billion dollars. All right ninety nine percent of the people are buying these zombie things and 1 percent are getting rich off the selling of the zombie. So there is a lot going on with zombies. Then you take a look at the collapse of the housing market. One of the tropes that happens within the zombie film is that these suburban communities get boarded up. People are becoming scavengers and all of that American dream is completely eliminated. Now it's a funny you're much deeper than me.

It's I was looking at this and I just went to the baseline and I thought well if they're if people are eating other people then is that sort of the whole dog eat dog world where I feel like I you know somebody has already got a knife in my back kind of thing absolutely. Again that is part of it. It is again that isolation. We are not we don't have a community anymore. And this is this is something that I think comes not only in zombie films but other areas. When you look at our society we don't have the traditional. Urban suburban community that we had many many years ago I urge rural communities and the urban communities where you had all the immigrants and that all got destroyed when everyone moved out to the suburbs so you don't have the same kind of communities. So people are lacking in community and that shows up again and again when in other zombie films the community is broken down and then a small band of people get together and form a new community. Let's listen to this is a clip from evil did so this is really zombies barely being portrayed as evil for one thousand eighty one film called evil did

not want to. Resurrect art. He was with. Us From the right I'm white. So these are people forming the community as you said to run away from these things. She ran among them to protect them yes. And with Evil Dead the worse that we get into a new sub genre zombie films and that is the zombie parody and evil that's a parody that I'm not too far afield it's actually both. Oh OK. And that's that's one of the joys of it it's a film that has real cars and it has some really wonderful themes going. But it's also kind of funny. And the other ones like that are Shaun Of The Dead which is a take of Dawn of the dead OK. And then also the

zombie land which is a wonderful film with with Woody Harrelson in it and Fido where modern society has been able to take the zombies and domesticate them so that your They're your servants and your butlers. Here's a clip from zombie land the film you just reference this is 2009 zombie land. Climbing the tree doing the living responses. Of those. Going the least of our problems. Will come to zombie land. Mother always told me someday you'll be good. I mean I. Think you get that something would be wrong. By the way you can kill zombies but you get oh yeah you're going to have to cut your hair brained thing. Yeah yeah. Vampires are a little tricky. He's got to wait for the sun to come up and I'm going oh you have to get escape before the sun comes gets a

little. It's just amazing to me that there are so many parodies of it that people are so into it I have to mention. A Harvard psychotic trysts who has written a medical paper on zombies presented in the night of the Living did he refers to a condition as a taxi neurodegenerative sit tight satiety deficiency I just pronounced it but it means being full. So really it's unsteadiness on your feet with lack of voluntary coordination degeneration of nerves and you're not full so you're wandering around. But I mean when you have people like a Harvard psychiatrist writing about it and then the Centers for Disease Control as we mention this gives fodder for people to start thinking Is this for real because this the CDC had actually put out a report this year saying hey by the way they're not real. No they're not there they're not real but you know it is something that we should be taking seriously. When you think about that this year in France they had a zombie walk and a zombie walk is where people get

dressed up like zombies and shuffle around the city and maybe do some pub crawling. They had 3000 people doing the zombie walk in France and they happen in Boston. It is a cultural phenomenon where I do believe that people feel that they are zombies that their dead end jobs and they can't you know that they come out of college like your last segment talk about loaded with debt and they can't get jobs. And what are they what are they supposed to do. They're zombies they can't enjoy life. So I think that there is something very deep about what zombies mean in our society right now. So as I understand there are many more zombie films for us to anticipate this summer even. There are some that coming up the summer there's also some big ones coming up. There's one called breathers a zombie lament. What is that. That's going to be a comedy. OK good then. Then there is the one that everyone is really waiting for Pride and Prejudice and Zombies Pride and Prejudice. They're messing with my book now. OK. But it is it's we understand the concept. It is you know the book the book except that there

are zombies and the as part of the environment sort of like deer and so you have to work around them. OK. And then there's the big one that everyone's talking about right now which is with Brad Pitt called World War Z which is about a zombie apocalypse. And apparently it's in trouble because the hundred fifty million dollar fine they have to go back for reshoots. Oh so that's not coming out into the public coming out I think I suppose going to Christmas I think it's going to be pushed back until spring. With the exception of the comedies is there are there any change to the fundamental zombie ness that you know say you made the point that George Ramiro changed right as he was now in these new films. Yeah that's changing as well. Well first of all and 28 Days Later we started to get the fact that zombies were far faster than they used to be they were no longer shuffling they were faster killing creatures. Same thing with I Am Legend. You know again zombies were very fast in 1085 return of the Living Dead one of my favorite zombie films introduced us to the concept of eating brains because it stops the pain. So they're constantly changing and constantly evolving. And again it's again all we have to do is take a look at White Zombie

where they're controlling one person and now where you have these massive zombie attacks created by either a virus or something else that forces people to kill people and the people that they kill get up and kill people. I realize I never asked you Are you a zombie movie fan. Yes I am. And which one is your favorite. Well I'm not sure I love Return Of The Living Dead I like 28 Days Later. I love Shaun of the dead but I actually went and got some titles of some films that I haven't seen but they're just great titles. OK. Are you ready. Yeah. Bubba's chili parlor which is a zombie film because he actually cooks a zombie and feeds it to his patrons. OK here's here's what. Attack of the vegan zombies. I don't understand zombies of mass destruction mutant zombie vampires from the hood. Zombies on wheels. I don't know. Titles I think they're they're interesting so for all practical purposes just to put a button on this this is really moved out of the horror

film genre right. You know yeah it really has and again I would say why is it and I guess I would say that it is because for the most part 99 percent of the people out there are feeling like they are zombies and to the detriment or to the to the servitude of the one percent. Let's we started with skull bare. Let's give call bear a final comment on this one. Yeah. And here he is talking about the zombie apocalypse protest though they may just last year the CDC issued a very different report. It started with a simple blog post on the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention website. The title preparedness want to want a zombie apocalypse. Oh sure back then they said it was just a tongue in cheek campaign. But whose tongue in whose Could it be. Could it be that the CDC changed their tune because now they're

zombies. I think that says it all Gary. And much better than I could I think. Right. Well we're looking forward to all the zombie apocalypse. I guess we've been talking zombies with film critic Karen Daly thank you so much. My pleasure. You can keep on top of the Calla Crossley Show at WGBH dot org slash Kelly Crossley. You can follow us on Twitter and become a fan of the Calla Crossley Show on Facebook. Today Show was engineered by Jane Pitt produced by Chelsea murders. Will Rose and Abbie Ruzicka. Our internist Sloan pipes up where production of WGBH Boston Public Radio.