WGBH Radio; The Callie Crossley Show

I'm Cally Crossley This is the Cali Crosland show. We're talking about affirmative action this fall the Supreme Court will hear a landmark case that can ban affirmative action in higher education once and for all. Affirmative action was hatched half a century ago to end the institutionalized discrimination. Proponents say affirmative action needs more time to undo centuries of racial discrimination. Opponents claim that in 2012 it's time to push past policies that are based on the color of someone's skin. In a time of extreme economic disparities. Should schools toss out race conscious admission and instead reach out to low income students of all races. If affirmative action gets the ax How will this affect future generations and how will it play out in Massachusetts where so many universities actively draw from diverse applicant pools. Up next the colorblind campus. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi saying it's down to the wire for the

Republican presidential candidates hoping to win big in tomorrow's Super Tuesday primary contests with more than 400 delegates at stake today all eyes are on the battleground state of Ohio. Mitt Romney and his main rival Rick Santorum have been campaigning heavily in that state. NPR's Tamara Keith says Romney visited a manufacturing facility in Canton this morning where he kept his focus on the economy. Gregory industries transforms huge roles of steel and the highway guardrails and Romney says the business has succeeded because they focus on what they know he's doing just that today. Campaign stops around Ohio and I look at this campaign right now and I see a lot of folks all talking about lots of things. But what we need to talk about to defeat Barack Obama is getting good jobs and scaling back the size of government. And that's. What I do. Perhaps not coincidentally Romney is campaigning in congressional districts where his chief rival Rick Santorum failed to qualify for the ballot. Tamara Keith NPR News

Canton Ohio. Residents across the South and Midwest are picking through what's left of their homes and businesses after tornadoes left a trail of destruction in 10 states last week at least thirty nine people were killed in half of those states. But that death toll could climb. To make matters worse some of the most battered communities are now coping with heavy snow and frigid temperatures. Heavy fighting between Yemen's army and al Qaeda fighters is resulting in scores of casualties on both sides at least 85 people have been killed since the battles erupted yesterday and beyond province when militants reportedly launch surprise attacks on army posts. The Associated Press says the death toll may be as high as one hundred thirty nine Meanwhile Iraqi authorities are worried al Qaeda may be regaining its grounding in the western province and bar once Iraq's most violent region today it had teeth a gunman disguised the security forces killed at least 25 police officers and hoisted the battle flag of al Qaeda. U.S. factories are posting their sharpest drop in 15 months after falling 1 percent in January. Here's

NPR's Dave Mattingly. CHIEF ECONOMIST Stuart Hoffman at PNC Financial says the drop in orders for business equipment and machinery was actually less than he'd expected. And even with the decline he says the big picture continues to show the U.S. economy is getting stronger. We've added jobs in manufacturing and now we're seeing shipments are going up and believe it or not manufacturing is actually leading the economy back well ahead of construction. Hoffman says he expects Friday's Labor Department report to show the economy added 200000 jobs or more in February for the third consecutive month. Dave Mattingly NPR News Washington. At last check on Wall Street the Dow was down 60 points to twelve thousand nine hundred seventy Nasdaq down 30 to 29 44. This is NPR News. And from the WGBH radio newsroom in Boston I'm Christina Cohen with some of the local stories we're following. A new development team today unveiled plans for a 300 unit apartment tower in Boston's Innovation District. The Boston Globe reports that scans Go USA

Commercial Development Bank and twining properties say they will build the tower to be called watermark seaport at the corner of Seaport Boulevard and Boston wharf road. It will be part of the 25 acre seaport square project that is expected to fill in many of the area's vast parking lots in coming years. The building will also have a 25000 square foot square feet rather of retail space on the ground floor. Eight more men are seeking a settlement over their allegations of former Boston Red Sox clubhouse manager molested them. The men include two former Baltimore Orioles bat boys lawyer Mitchell Garabedian says the men are seeking five million dollar settlements from the Red Sox or Orioles. The new allegations bring the number of men to 20 who have accused Donald J Fitzpatrick of molesting them between the 1980s and 1990s. Fitzpatrick died in 2005 at age 76 while serving a 10 year suspended sentence for sexual assault charges in Florida. A series of journals kept by a lawyer who represented Lizzie Borden in her 1893 double murder trial are shedding

new light on the case. The Herald News reports the journals were willed to the Fall River historical society by the lawyers grandson who recently died. In Maine a legislative committee is holding a hearing on a proposal to extend the statute of limitations in some sex abuse cases. The bill removes a six year limit for civil claims when an offender has certain authority over the victim. It extends the limit to 10 years for some criminal cases. In sports the Boston Red Sox play the Minnesota Twins tonight down in Fort Myers. And the weather forecast for this afternoon sunny and cold with highs in the mid 30s windy with gusts up to 30 miles per hour tonight mostly clear with lows around 17. Right now it's 36 degrees in Boston. Support for NPR comes from the mosaic foundation of Rita and Peter Haden based in Ann Arbor honoring the passion of public radio listeners all across America who support their NPR member stations. This is WGBH. Good afternoon I'm Cally Crossley this fall the Supreme Court will revisit affirmative

action. The court has agreed to hear a case from the University of Texas a landmark case that could ban affirmative action in higher education once and for all. Joining me to talk about what it would mean if affirmative action is eliminated is Elaine Shanks. She's the president of Pine Manor College on the line from San Diego is Gail Harriet a professor of law at the University of San Diego School of Law. She's also a congressional appointee to the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights. We're also joined by Jess Bravin a Supreme Court correspondent for The Wall Street Journal. Welcome to you all. Thank you. Thank you. Jess I want to start with you for a little context setting this Supreme Court last ruled on affirmative action in a case in 2003 that involved the University of Michigan. Tell us how this case differs from that one. Well in 2003 the Supreme Court had two separate admissions programs at the University of Michigan to examine one of them involve the undergraduate

class where the admissions office would give an extra 20 points to any person who is a member of a specified minority. The other was the law school admissions program which didn't have a specific point number that it gave to applicants but it did permit admissions officers to consider the applicants race among a broader portfolio of the students qualities. The Supreme Court struck down the point based system that the undergraduate division used but it up held the University of Michigan's holistic approach as it put it in the law school admissions system for a number of reasons and it was the first time the Supreme Court found that educational diversity was a compelling government interest it was important enough to justify the classification of applicants by race to a degree. And didn't disadvantage others too much in order to attain that. That interest of educational diversity. Well now we're 10 almost 10 years on and there are a number of differences

one and the most significant one that any court observer will mention is the court itself has changed. Justice Sandra Day O'Connor who was the co-author of the majority opinion in that law school admission case from Michigan which is known as Gruber. She retired in 2006. Her successor Justice Samuel Alito has seemed much more skeptical about racial classifications that government agencies do even if they are for benign purposes or benevolent purposes as the University of Texas maintains its program is. So that's one change there is perhaps a more skeptical Supreme Court majority. Secondly the University of Texas program is somewhat different from the University of Michigan Law School program mainly because it's an undergraduate admissions system. The undergraduate class at Texas is very very large unlike the very smallest selective law school admissions program in the Michigan case. And Texas has done certain things to promote diversity in its undergraduate class because

of a legal anomaly between 1996 and 2003. Texas was among three states were affirmative action was prohibited under a Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals ruling known as Hopwood. So during that period Texas adopted a plan called the top 10 percent plan where it took the top 10 percent of graduates from each public high school in Texas as a way of allowing students perhaps in overwhelmingly minority schools that had not performed as well as other schools to get into. So they had done some things to promote diversity that didn't classify applicants by race. Once the decision came down in 2003 they maintained the top 10 percent program but they also began using race as a factor in a small percentage of their applicant pool so the challengers to the University of Texas program maintained that what Texas is doing is not consistent with the 2003 decision because they don't need

to consider race to get a diverse student body. But they say if the court finds it is consistent Well then maybe they should reconsider that 2003 opinion. So just one more question at the time of the case the 2003 case gritter versus bowling. Sandra Day O'Connor wrote in the opinion and because she wrote the majority opinion that she didn't see that there would be a need to revisit this for 25 years. It's not been quite 10. And the court has decided to take a look. Why. Well she didn't exactly say she didn't see there would be a need to revisit it she said that towards the end of the majority opinion there that she expected that the need for affirmative action would have would be gone would have have evaporated in 25 years so it was not so much that this is a closed book for 25 years rather by 25 years from now. We expect that that society will be a place where this is no longer necessary. OK point taken that was not yeah but that's not really a legal holding that's sort of you know that's that's that's her musing on what she foresees

as is taking place in the future. The court is not bound by its previous decisions it can always overrule them or modify them if it thinks it necessary. And the Supreme Court right now with this composition has done precisely that in another opinion that Justice O'Connor co wrote in 2003 there was a campaign finance opinion that the court overruled in 2010 with a new opinion called Citizens United. This new court under Chief Justice Roberts therefore shows that it is willing to overrule constitutional decisions it thinks were in error. So if there are five justices who conclude that Justice O'Connor was in error then or that circumstances have changed so much that the holding is no longer valid. We could have a different opinion next year. All right. That's my guest Jess Bravin as Supreme Court correspondent for The Wall Street Journal. We're discussing the case that the Supreme Court has elected to take on and to hear in the fall. It's a case about the University of Texas revisiting affirmative action in higher education. Now do you Gale

Harriet you sit on the U.S. commission for civil rights and you have written that you think in essence I'm just going to put you can correct me that time is over for the kind of formal affirmative action program that the schools have been using since the 2003 Supreme Court decision tell us why. Well the angle of this issue that interests me most is what is called mismatch. And that is that there is right now a growing body of empirical evidence that particularly in the area of science and engineering but not just in that area that minority students who are accepted and enroll at colleges and universities where their and credentials are going to put them towards the bottom of the class. That they are less likely to achieve their ambition of a Science and Engineering degree as a washout of those programs in much higher numbers than other students. And I should emphasize it's not just affirmative

action beneficiaries it is legacy beneficiaries. Anybody who decides to go to a school where they're entering academic credentials put them towards the bottom of the class. It's very very hard to see to succeed in science and engineering in that situation. There is very strong evidence now that we would have more African-American physicians more African American dentists engineers and quite a few other kinds of science and engineering professionals. If those students chose not to go to a school that they got into only because of a preference. The numbers are really quite startling. And again it isn't just in the science and engineering area but I think the science and engineering area happens to have the strongest evidence there is also. There's also evidence that in law school it's not good to go to law school that you just barely got into that students are more likely to to graduate and pass the bar if they go to a school with her entering credentials are

ballpark average or above average or maybe just a little below average. Again this assumes that all of the candidates the of the quote unquote affirmative action candidates would be at the bottom. Or as you just described barely above average. Is that what you're saying. What I'm saying is that for example with regard to law schools over well a majority of African American law students are going to law school to have a grade point average to put stand in the bottom 10 percent of the class. That's that's a very serious problem. It's not all students but of course not all minority students are the beneficiaries of racial preferences. Many students are going to schools they would've gone gotten into regardless of race. And it's not those students that we're concerned with. It's the students who are getting in who would not have gotten in had they been Asian or white. You're not doing a student any favors to put him in a class where

his academic credentials are going to put him towards the bottom of the class. And I feel very strongly that we would be much better off if students in that situation knew about the problem and the trouble is colleges and universities don't tell students that they wouldn't have gotten in but for their race they don't tell students that their academic credentials put them towards the bottom of the class. There are students who would have been able to succeed in getting a degree in biology chemistry going on to medical school but instead they find themselves at the bottom of the class. One of the interesting facts to which you hold right there I just want to get a layman this way we're going to come back to you know what you may add to what you just said but let's you know let that resonate with a lot of people. That's my guest Gail Harriet She's a professor of law at the University of San Diego School of Law. She's also a congressional appointee to the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights. So Elaine Shanks You've heard what Gale Harriet has said. You are the president of Pine Manor College but you also have done some research

at Harvard Medical School looking at the impact of affirmative action. So in the context of what Gayle has said about it seems we need to think about this a little bit differently now for the reasons you stated. How do you feel about it should affirmative action be upheld as it is now. And is there a benefit. From what you learned in yours in your study. Yes thank you Cali. I definitely Pine Manor College. I just want to say a word about that and then go into my study Pine Manor College is celebrating its 100th Centennial this year 85 of those years a predominant student body were upper class white women in the last 15 years there's been a concerted effort to increase the number of underrepresented minorities to the community and now we're over 80 percent under represented minority student body and one of the things that I think the

reason we've been successful in this is that we have a supportive environment that makes sure that those students who come to the campus. Are. It's believed that they have the same promise and abilities as the women that came before them and in fact the results are true to that in the Harvard Medical School study that I did I looked at 30 years of affirmative action at Harvard Medical School. There was an outreach there was concerned to begin with that maybe the students that were being recruited who had been ignored for the for many years between nine thousand nine hundred one thousand sixty nine when I began the study less than 23 students of color had attended Harvard Medical School where us from the time of my study 69 through 98 over 800 students had attended and many. And there was very little attrition in that group. But there was a lot of support that was put in place for those students. For instance summer

support programs and then those morphed into research programs because often the students that would come to Harvard Medical School. From disadvantaged economic communities often didn't have exposure to some of the things that the legacy students or the students who lived right in the Boston area could during their summers to participate in research or do some other things that allowed them to be more ready. So what Harvard did was look at that and say OK these students are prepared in their biochemistry they're prepared in their basic sciences. But what they don't have is lab experience so let's let's give them some support for that. And I think that all these schools that you are talking about I think the same same thing could be true that not only admitting the students but actually providing the support that's needed for them is something that I think would at lead to success and would allow those students to benefit from having come from these different particular colleges that that give an

extra boost to people throughout their lives if they have in fact attended a particular school. Elaine Gale says there's a mystery. Mitch met Miss Match for a lot of students and so she identifies the ones at the bottom who come in who they're not told they're at the bottom but they have. The lowest scores and they can't catch up. You're describing affirmative action working to close a gap a skills gap that allows students to go forward and in fact graduate in the same way that fellow students. So how do you respond to what Gail Gail is saying. Does that mean more and more we need to pay attention to it. Well I have I have read a lot of studies also that have said that with the support these students to do well there has to be an acknowledgement that there are students who aren't as prepared as others and some supports put in place. I know at the Harvard in the Harvard study the

supports that were put in place for those students coming in through the affirmative action program also benefited the majority students one of the things that. Came out and really has happened across the country. Cree is a burgeoning of student services in all colleges. When colleges were predominantly male and predominantly white the need for mentorship was more organically grown men would professors would would naturally see the up and coming gentleman in their classes as someone who was going to become similar to them and so they would mentor them. But when more women came in to the campuses when more people of color came in. That didn't happen as organically as naturally and so the colleges needed to begin to do to create student service programs and that benefited not just the minority students but all students and I think all campuses need to look at what they need once they've admitted those students it's their

responsibility to make it an environment where everyone succeeds. All right well we obviously have much more to talk about it's a very complex issue. That's my guest Elaine Shanks. She's the president of Pine Manor College. We're talking about affirmative action and higher education. If the U.S. Supreme Court decides to ban it once and for all. What will be the consequences. You can join the conversation 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 is it time to do away with affirmative action. Are you someone who benefited from it. Are you someone who resents getting an advantage because of your skin color. 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. You're listening to a nine point seven WGBH Boston Public Radio. Show. This program is made possible thanks to you. And the Harvard innovation lab a university

wide center for innovation where entrepreneurs from Harvard the Austin Community Boston and beyond engage in teaching and learning about entrepreneurship. Information at I lab at Harvard dot edu. And arts Emerson presenting the Anderson project by the Mets Ring Cycle director oh barely a posh video and performance blend to create this immersive experience opens March 24th. You can visit arts Emerson dot org today. On the next FRESH AIR how we form habits and how we can break them. We talk with Charles Duhigg about what neuroscientists called the habit loop triggers and rewards. If you want to quit smoking you should stop smoking while you're on a vacation. DUHIGG new book is The Power of Habit. Join us. This afternoon at 2:00 here on eighty nine point seven.

Hi I'm Brian O'Donovan inviting you to join us for St. Patrick's Day Celtic's a special concert of traditional and contemporary Irish music song and dance. At the site Tyrian Theater in New Bedford on March 17th. Art Sanders Theater in Cambridge on March 24th. Tickets start as low as 20 Donna's WGBH members. Take your seats at a discount. If WGBH dot org slash have to. COPE you could make it. The cafe as the new office opportunity comes in the most random places and for me it was an account of the new office is not welcome by everyone. Many of them will just get a cup of coffee sit there for three hours today at 5 20 at WGBH is ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. Welcome back to the Calla Crossley Show. If you're just joining us we're talking about affirmative action in higher education. This fall the Supreme Court will be hearing a landmark case

that could ban affirmative action once and for all. Joining me to talk through what this could mean for people of color social equality and our universities are Elaine Shanks president of Pine Manor College. Gail Harriet a professor of law at the University of San Diego School of Law. And Jess Bravin who covers the Supreme Court for The Wall Street Journal. You can join the conversation at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 seventy 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. You can write to our Facebook page or send me a tweet at. Kelli Crossley is it time to do away with affirmative action. Does affirmative action need to stay in place in order to offset centuries of racial discrimination. Has this policy helped you or hurt you. 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. And again our Facebook page and tweet are available to you. So along the way there's been much conversation about affirmative action from many of our leaders. I wanted to give people a chance to hear Bill Bill Clinton talking about it

in one thousand ninety six. So this is President Bill Clinton talking about affirmative action. But let us not forget of karma if action didn't cause these problems it won't solve them. And getting rid of affirmative action certainly won't solve if properly done affirmative action can help us come together go forward and grow together. It is in our look moral legal and practical interest to see that every person can make the most of his own life in the fight for the future. We need all hands on deck. And some of those hands still need a helping hand. So Gale Harriet if your issue is that the way that the program is the affirmative action programs are construed now are just not effective for the student that you've identified as needing the most help or the ones that I guess Bill Clinton was referring to. But what would you say would be a way to make it work. What would work better.

I think that it's still important to emphasize recruitment. But what would work better would be a system under which one's academic credentials and whatever else to a college chooses to take into consideration are taken into consideration but one that does not get any advantage based on race. What you want to have when you've got particularly again in particular in science and engineering but not just science and engineering. There's also evidence that that students who get racial preferences are much less likely to want to become college professors when they get out of school. And again I said also in law school without some evidence on that as well. The best thing to do is for people to go to a school where their academic credentials put them ballpark you know with the best of the students. Just a moment ago it was mentioned that with remedial help students at Harvard Medical School can do just fine and I'm sure that's true but it would be nice if minority students didn't

need remedial help that they were going to the same school that other students in their position are doing. There's so much evidence that under those circumstances we would get more black doctors more black veterinarians more black engineers more black scientist. Well as you. Good question because what what often happens I mean so you've laid out that point but the response by many is how do you do that. If the schooling led up leading up to that point has not provided all of the services that some of their fellow classmates may have had so it's not a question of inability to do the work. It's a question of not having access to the services that the other students had which made them put them in a better situation. So when you equalize that as as Elaine has said then everybody is in the pool together. We're not talking about people who cannot compete we're talking about people who can compete if given if if

if if the circumstances from which they came were adjudicated in a little bit different way. You're still talking as if you think that this is making a student better off. And what I'm trying to say is we're making the students worse off if there's a problem at the K through 12 level. We have to fix the problem at the K through 12 level. Oh I think that's I think everybody would agree but. But right now it's not. I just can't believe it. And so yes making it worse. You're making it worse by taking students who are unprepared. Yes I know that I do better prepared students and that's making it less likely they will succeed. I was wondering if just a question for you. One thing that's that is not challenged in the lawsuit that the court will hear in the next term is what's called the top 10 percent plan that Texas adopted when racial preferences or racial race conscious admissions were barred in the Fifth Circuit and that therefore

qualifies the top 10 percent at the best public high schools in Texas and also the worst. And it seems to me that your concern would be equally strong with a plan that would be in place that the plaintiffs in the Fisher case think is a good plan as it would with any kind of race conscious admissions program. I think it depends upon how the 10 percent plan works. There are so many students going to the University of Texas now who do come from from from high schools that are somewhat less competitive and they are of all races it's not not not a not a race issue at all at that point and to some degree that has made Texas a less competitive school than it used to be and that's what has the faculty at University of Texas so upset. That's why they want to go back to a system where they give only racial preferences and not preferences for people who attended less competitive schools in areas that are predominately white.

All right let me let me let Elaine get into this. Elaine what is your response to to just as a question there. My response is similar to what I said earlier which is that once these students are admitted I think we need to give them the supports that that can allow them to be successful. That isn't always remedial by any stretch. It often is the introduction to some of these fields that students in more advantage of various might have had already. And that's certainly true in the science and engineering field that that Professor Harriet has been mentioning that many times in schools that have less resources in the K through 12 they just don't have the the science and math levels of the AP classes and so on that are necessary for students to be prepared it doesn't mean they're not able to do that and those in the and sometimes then colleges need to provide that kind of support. And that it's been true

throughout the generations for legacy students for athletes for musicians schools have always made choices to have a very diverse student body and that diversity is more than race it's really to have students from all different backgrounds so that students can learn from the differences and be ready for the workforce. That's certainly the goal at Pine Manor College is that we are creating a global village where students can work to learn to live and work and study together so that they can understand each other's differences. Let me take it but it's not working it's not working. I feel like no one's listening here. We actually could have more success by having people go to school with her and credentials fit. And you can say over and over and over again gosh we should support them. But the data is overwhelming now. But well you know I would only say I'm going to call in just a second that there's also you know

looking at I mean the black middle class right now is pretty much made up of people who were affirmative action candidates and they did very well. I mean are they more. Well I I'm just saying that you can't disavow that that data that is quite clear about people who know where it came in and I'm just saying it's equal. If you're saying that it's not a quote I can't you know people go to the school where they're entering credentials match the typical student. They are more likely to succeed you're more likely to get you know a math or science degree. They are more likely to succeed in law school in all probability. I mean this just you can't just keep saying the same thing. I'm only talking about I'm only pointing out one part of what you just said and that is you said there's no evidence that you said there's evidence it doesn't work. And so what I'm responding to is that there is plenty of data and a lot of us walking around people made up of the black middle class who many of whom did not have the advantages that that.

So many of their classmates may have had had some services when they got to school and then were in the pool like everybody had to rise and fall like everybody else and did find a role the success stories or success stories of people who didn't go to college at all the point is you can have more success stories if people are going to school with their academic credentials matched and best to distance that's assuming that there ever was that time. I mean there's the admissions process that is not time there ever was this time that criteria exactly matched a set. There has never been that. I mean for years and years Harvard as a Harvard LUMS could could I don't know how their children although I know I'm saying we can make it better. But why make a banner in this particular way only when we know there are results like this Kelly is just saying it is working though it's been working there's studies from day one the affirmative action industry but has it actually benefits.

Yes well I would have to take issue with that Gail and just say again back to the dad of looking at people in most of the corporations you know black folks and the corporations and Latinos who have risen to a certain level. I think if you go look at it they're pretty much all I'm saying from have succeeded had oh I just googled it was a little bit less competitive and more subtlety there. I'm just suggesting. Why did they have to when all they needed was an extra service and they close the gap immediately and they had to compete with everybody else that's all I'm saying. I'm not suggesting to you that there may be other students that benefit by but I am saying there is empirical evidence we're looking at it. A black middle class people who came from there. That's all I'm saying but let's take a call and continue because there's a couple other points that I want to bring up that I think it's really we need to get in this conversation some of it has to do with with income based programs. Michael from air go ahead please Unocal across the show eighty nine point seven WGBH. Thank you for taking my call. I'm concerned to see that we

discontinue selecting issues resident looking at the whole of education. If the case you 12 programs are excellent we would need any form of affirmative action. However be that as it may. Unfortunately many low income communities are made up primarily of nonwhite persons and as a white man I'm not really comfortable talking about this because I know that in fact we do have real spiritual and intellectual equality and if we treated each other with real knowledge and respect we wouldn't need to be having this conversation. Thank you. All right Michael thanks very much for the call. One of the issues that I wanted to re put on the table and by the way our number is 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 and you can send us a tweet or write to our

Facebook page. Call in if you were a beneficiary of affirmative action or if you felt you were not. But let's let's get to hear some voices. From out in the population I want to put on the table the something that comes up a lot in jest. I might begin with you and that is many are saying that the way that in these tough economic times the best way to achieve diversity across the board that would include race is to really look at income diversity. And that's the way to go. And so I'm starting with you Jess Bravin who Wall Street Journal correspondent for the Supreme Court to ask if there is some indication that on the court a number of justices may be thinking in that direction have given some indication that they think this is a way to go. I don't think that's the frame by which the court looks at questions like this. I think they're looking at it in terms of does classifying individual they're not making others are not making a policy judgment about what is the best way for a school to go about

its goals of educating a certain segment of the population. They're really looking at it is is the. Is the the outright identification by race of an individual applicant justified by the goal that the the state institution has and this is of course a public institution and in Texas but Texas as I said basically has that kind of program with this top 10 percent plan and yet three fourths of the applicants three fourths of the undergraduate admissions to the University of Texas are chosen through that program. The part that is at issue before the Supreme Court in the fall is going to be the remaining quarter of those the school grades them according to two indexes one is an academic index so even if they're not in the top 10 percent of their high school but their grades and scores are high enough they get in automatically. And then there is a second sliver of the applicant pool who are graded in this

holistic way that the school says when they look at their various other talents or characteristics and race is one of them. And the issue before the Supreme Court is whether that sliver of the applicant pool that is being admitted partially in some instances based on race whether that program that admissions policy is justified under the 14th Amendment's guarantee of equal protection so that is really the framework the court looks at it and all in many of the things that that. The other guests brought up there are interesting from a policy perspective they're not directly the kind of question that the Supreme Court is going to be asking. OK. So well then let me just continue discussion from a policy standpoint because this is the whole income diversity issue is one that comes up all the time. But you can look at it this way that certainly there's no question that that you know admissions officers do look at income. Right now they certainly are quite aware of it when they make financial aid decisions so

income is already a factor in a lot of universities and the schools ability to take income into account and perhaps similar characteristics like you know first in the family to go to college that kind of thing that's not questioned in this case. And then I guess the last thing I think about is that the question before the court in part is the university's interest and the university's interest in securing a racially diverse student body that is I think the core question before the Supreme Court. Is it a compelling interest of the University of Texas and other public universities to have a diverse student body. Attending and if so how far can they go to get that. That is I think the core question more than whether it is good or bad for any individual student. All right we got so much to talk about I want to get to a break and then come back so that we can pick this up a little cleanly and callers are going to get right to you when we come back. We're talking about affirmative action

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Bidding closes March 24th and every bid supports the reach and resources of WGBH programs and stations sponsored by Landry in our Cari oriental rugs and carpeting and circle furniture for full listings visit auction WGBH daughter org. I'm Cally Crossley. We're discussing affirmative action and what it would mean if this practice were banned from higher education for good. You can join the conversation at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 in this so-called post-racial world is it time to retire affirmative action. When there was still a huge income and opportunity gap between whites and people of color do we need to continue to implement this policy. 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. You're listening to WGBH Boston Public Radio and I'm going to take some calls right now. Kevin from Worcester Go ahead please you're on the Kelly Crossley Show. Eighty nine point seven Thank you for taking my call. I just like it. Say that I disagree with forming a panelist. I grew up in Baltimore.

I was you know had the opportunity to go to a college in Vermont. It didn't take me long to figure out that I had the same sort of academic background as some of my peers had but you know I was you know the community there made me feel welcome and gave me the opportunity and identified some resources and that really made all the difference. And I went on to graduate and earned a master's degree and I was a student at a community college and I really feel like it's really about what this is willing to put forth in the effort to get an education. I don't think where really matters I think the community matters and what the communities will offer a student. So thank you. Thank you very much Kevin for your call Seth from Cape Cod in the Calla Crossley Show any $9.7 you GBH. Yeah I think you for taking my call. I mean to the point. Very interesting different perspective than I would hope that you would attend to it.

I would tend to badger secreted in a masters and let things that I've noticed over the years is that he only lasted after living on education system for the last few decades. It's interesting to note that the beliefs of how the school having a high school degree you know three decades ago a high school degree was enough to get you to be common he won't be producing any British society and that's no longer the case now. The purpose of the high school degree is to get you into college and essentially as we enter a society by how to attend college to be a productive member of society. So I'm only I'm an opinion that we need to refocus on the how do schools. I think you should as you complete high school you are. You have enough skills to be a producing member of society. And if you look at that if you piss on the high school degree rather than a college degree then you hit everybody. Because as a society we need to make sure that in order to be pushing up society everybody

has the skills necessary to produce a version functionally members of a society. And I just you know we're only human society not going the way I think we need to refocus. High school SATs I think all of our guests all of my Guess what it would agree with you and some people are saying very strongly high school is actually too late you have to start in kindergarten through 12 to build the foundation. What is your point that you don't think affirmative action is needed then if you know why I believe affirmative action in the state is definitely needed I've been to very low income communities. That's really that's you're treated I mean you need that if you know what I want in my and my second vouchers agree and you actually think that is a very you know that his community has been very very community is going to change and again be the scene of the standard that somebody in say a private high school would get you don't get. That kind of you can't be good and that's going to make a avocation

point of crime if you're just not getting the same chance. Gotcha. Thanks very much for your call Seth. I want to talk about this income diverse perspective which a lot of people are now saying you know that's the way to go to achieve both income diversity which is and we're talking about elite colleges so this is why this is important so that the entire population of the college is not all people who are homogeneously well-off. We're not going to say wealthy but well-off and maybe wealthy and and white and that it can be achieved through if by looking at income diversity we've talked about what's going on in Texas which is a little bit of what they're doing there. But Gail Harriet would that be a program that you would think would work better I know your I know your point about mismatching but I'm just let's talk about income diversity at this point. Well income diversity could have some of the same problems depending on how it's implemented. I mean to some degree I think of course state universities should take special care

to make sure that people who can't afford private education can get a public education that's why we have public universities to make sure that they are available for all people. So I very much support that. Now some people are very concerned that using income or socioeconomic class or what have you won't do what they want it to do with regard to race. Do you think it will sample. Well here here in California for example when Proposition 209 which banned racial preferences in college admissions at state schools went into effect a number of schools went for four or. Four. I don't know if income is the right word but I would call it socioeconomic class preferences. That tends to to to to benefit blacks and Hispanics somewhat. But remember a lot of the people that are there are going to schools on racial preferences are from middle class families or upper middle class families. The group that was most benefited the racial group that was most benefited by both

Proposition Two in on itself in that it got rid of racial preferences and by socio economic class preferences was Asians there. Lot of poor nations with very high academic credentials and California schools have to try to accommodate them although not as much as I would like. Well their summation was what's called redlining with Asian American students that I'm sure is going to the next phase of looking at how affirmative action is plays out and it's a very serious problem. You have to you have to have an extra hundred 40 points on the S.A.T. to be an Asian student getting into an elite school. All right let me go for it let me get Elaine in here I take your point on that. It's a story we certainly want to look into a little bit later but Lane income diversity would that achieve also racial diversity. No it really doesn't. Because there still tends to be more majority economically disadvantaged than minority. For one thing and secondly

the are the areas because we still have so much segregation in this country in where people live and where and the quality of the schools in the areas that are serving the under-represented minorities tend to continue to perpetuate. School systems that don't provide the honors courses or the AP courses are some of the services that are needed. The labs and so on like I was talking about before that would allow them to to get those to be at the top of the economically disadvantaged pool. So I don't think it's going to solve the Create the kind of diversity in the schools that that the public needs and the other thing that many of the studies show this is in the Bowen and Bach book as well as that many of the students of color who attend elite schools as

well as all college in general tend to go. I often go into more of the community service public public become public defenders do community become primary care physicians and do return to their communities and and serve the under-served. So I think that in terms of this case and the need for. Why. Maybe a public institution should should continue this is in part what the results of what has happened over the 40 years that affirmative action has been there. And until we can correct the K through 12 problems I think we still need this kind of correction it's not the perfect solution just as Bill Clinton said. But it is a solution that it is an option that is helping to correct a problem that still exists in society. I'll repeat it's making things worse. I'd like to know if I may. Why is it that when the term preferences is used with the with in connection with

higher education and affirmative action it never applies to legacy students. And then somebody mentioned athletes who it must be said get an extra boost to go in somehow that's I don't know of a lawsuit that's been brought about any of those students. But it always centers around race and we all should just say that gender is very important here because a lot of students a lot of female students have benefited from affirmative action has become a race based policy in the minds of so many. But gender is very much a part of that equaling leveling the playing field as well. Yeah which is one thing that when you said Gayle that the Asian students benefited the most it's really women who benefited the very most from affirmative action because prior Actually you have a lot to say on that. It's actually the opposite today at many liberal arts schools now. They are discriminating in favor of men not in favor of women most 70 percent of now let's go as are women right now so you have to welcome a nation isn't it isn't

impacting too much yet. It's meaning that individuals and that's what matters here not not not the state of womanhood but rather an individual who applies to a college is not admitted because she is female. Even though those same credentials would have gotten her in had she been male. That's the world we're in today. As for legacies I'm very much against legacy preferences and always have been. The problem is there's no law against legacy preferences. So the reason you don't get lawsuits for legacy preferences is that there's no law involved there. If there were then there would be lawsuits. There have been efforts to get rid of legacy preferences. Texas A&M got rid of them a few years back and I think it was a very good idea. A State University in particular has no business giving someone a preference because their parents or grandparents happen to go. That's cool. Yeah but the reality is that in most schools right now legacy is a very important point you know point system as such at the University of

Michigan a legacy preference would get you a single point which was was very very small. Being African-American got you 20 points very very different legacy preferences tend to be very slight. I nevertheless opposed them particularly at state universities. Just how I know that you said that the court is not thinking about these public these other issues on the side and they're strictly looking at it in a very narrow way. But you know the issues of legacies whenever hermitic action is discussed comes up over and over. Gail is right there's no law against it. But you know here we are and it seems to me that at some point has to be some response in the way that they make a determination about which way forward. Well I think that the argument would be that that race is not less important than a legacy or a talent at musical instruments of war. Knowing a foreign language or or what have you I mean that's that's the

university's point they don't want to. They they want of course flexibility to assemble their entering class however they think is best and they think that racial diversity is very important this is true pretty much throughout higher education higher education community believes very strongly that racial diversity is essential in their institutions. But they also of course like legacy at MIT's and but they like them for a different reason those that's often connected to the development office and development preferences I mean the University of California had a scandal a number of years ago when the L.A. Times reported that preferences were being given to people referred by state legislators or people that the fund raising development offices believed might have an impact on wealthy donors to contribute more to the university so they have many interests that they want to. They want to achieve through the admissions policies and the question here though is whether or not taking you

know being conscious of the race of the applicant giving making it an undefined plus factor as the University of Texas says it does violates the Equal Protection Clause and these other categories don't bring up the equal protection clause the same way as many are suggesting that the court will decide this before the presidential election which would you know likely have some impact it's a big issue. What's your sense of that. I think that's very unlikely because the court's calendar through through April is already told they don't hear any cases between. May and October barring special circumstances so they couldn't really have an argument until October unless they do something really extreme and they won't have a decision for months after that because this is a very complex case so I think very unlikely to have a decision before the election. And because it's so complex we'll have to revisit it. Thank you all so much for talking to me about it. We've been talking about affirmative action and higher education. I've been speaking with Aline Shank's president of Pine Manor

College. Gail Harriet a professor of law at the University of San Diego School of Law. She's also a congressional appointee to the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights. And Jess Bravin you just heard him a Supreme Court correspondent for The Wall Street Journal. You can keep on top of the Calla Crossley Show at WGBH dot org slash Calla Crossley follow us on Twitter. I've become a fan of the Calla Crossley Show on Facebook. We are a production of WGBH Boston Public Radio.