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I'm Sue O'Connell. This is that Kelly Crossley Show. We're talking about the Boston University biolab its presence in Boston South End has been a source of controversy since 2003 when B you got a grant to build this laboratory though it was completed four years ago the lab has been dormant. Due to legal and regulatory hold ups. But last month officials granted preliminary approval to begin level 2 research in the facility and Boston University says it still aims to use part of the site as a level for lab. Now that the bio lab is partially operational the controversy is flaring up. Community activists don't like having deadly germs in their backyard. Proponents like Mayor Menino say this lab will bring jobs and millions of research dollars to the city. Up next the new kid on the block a neighborhood blight. Or a boon to Boston. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi Singh. President Obama is

expected to put the economy and fairness for the middle class center stage in his State of the Union address tonight signaling elements of his speech the president has told campaign supporters he wants an economy that quote works for everyone not just a wealthy few. Polls rank the economy including job growth as the dominant issue for voters this election year. The State of the Union takes place at 9:00 p.m. Eastern. Well in Tampa this morning presidential candidate Mitt Romney delivered what his campaign called a pre-buttal speech to President Obama's State of the Union address. NPR's Ari Shapiro reports Romney said President Obama's record is one of debt decline and disappointment. The speech was a stinging attack against President Obama delivered in an echoey cavernous manufacturing plant that shut down four years ago. This president's agenda made in these troubled times last longer. He and his allies made it harder for the economy to recover. The speech was a return to form for Romney. He used to focus solely on President Obama like this.

But after he slipped from his clear position in the lead of the Republican pack he has lately talked more about Newt Gingrich and less about the president. Ari Shapiro NPR News Tampa. A dire warning from the International Monetary Fund today it says the euro zone's troubles are affecting global growth. NPR's Yuki Noguchi reports the IMF downgraded its outlook on global growth to three point three percent this year. Most of that growth is coming from Asia. The IMF predicts Europe will have at least a mild recession this year and the fund says depending how quickly eurozone economies contract there could be a bigger impact on the rest of the world. Many European countries were downgraded earlier this year increasing their borrowing costs. Those countries are also cutting back spending and raising taxes. The U.S. is relatively strong with recent signs pointing to a stronger growth. But here too there is talk of fiscal cutbacks something the IMF warns must be done very judiciously not so quickly that it kills economic growth. But not so

slowly that it doesn't meaningfully reduce the burden of debt. You can a Gucci NPR News Washington. Another body has been found in the capsized Costa Concordia bringing the death toll from the shipwreck off Italy to 16. Officials say divers found the latest victim as a platform caring very sick Quitman hitched itself to the vessel. Authorities are also working toward unloading a half million gallons of fuel before it leaks into the water and causes a possible environmental disaster. The ship ran aground January 13th. At last check on Wall Street the Dow is down more than 40 points to twelve thousand six hundred sixty seven Nasdaq off slightly a two thousand seven hundred eighty four. And the S&P 500 down 3 points at thirteen thirteen. This is NPR News. Libya's young transitional government has lost control of a former Moammar Gadhafi stronghold. Local authorities in Bani Walid say hundreds of armed supporters of the ousted leader staged an uprising late Monday. The head of Bani Walid

local council says he has lost contact with revolutionary fighters in town. Root canals can be bad enough but a former dentist in Massachusetts made matters worse. The Associated Press reports Michael Klare has pleaded guilty to Medicaid fraud for using paper clips instead of stainless steel posts and root canals putting patients at risk of infection. And prosecutors say Claire was suspended by Medicaid in 2002 but kept filing claims anyway using other dentists names. He's due to be sentenced next week. The 84 the cademy awarded list of nominees is out. NPR's Elizabeth Blair reports Hugo and the artist drew the most nominations both movies are stylish tributes to another era. The artist is a black and white mostly silent french movie set in the one thousand twenty as Hugo is Martin Scorsese's a lavish tribute in 3D to 1930s French filmmaker Hugo cabaret. What does he do. There's a wind up figure. Like a music box. This is

the. Best. Complicated one I've ever seen Woody Allen's movie Midnight in Paris is another that goes back in time in France. It's up for best picture director and screenplay. Elizabeth Blair NPR News. U.S. stocks turning lower with the Dow down 44 points at last glance at twelve thousand six hundred sixty five. I'm Lakshmi Singh NPR News in Washington. Support for NPR comes from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation dedicated to the idea that all people deserve the chance to live healthy productive lives. At Gates Foundation dot org. Good afternoon I'm Sue O'Connell sitting in for Kelly Crossley and this is the Kelley cross Lee show. We're talking about the bee you Biola presence in Boston South End has been a source of controversy since 2003 when B you got a grant to build this laboratory. Last month officials granted preliminary approval to begin

level 2 research in the facility. Joining me to discuss what the presence of this lab means for Boston is Steven Smith. He's the city editor of The Boston Globe and Dr. John Murphy interim director of the bee bio lab. Thank you both for joining me. What to say at the top as publisher of Southend news we've not taken an editorial stand on the biolab just for a disclaimer there in case some folks think I'm in one camp or the other but welcome to both of you. Dr. John Murphy I want to start with you can you tell our listeners what the biolab is and exactly where it's located. Sure it is a component of the bio defense network. It was conceived by the National Institutes of Health shortly after the catastrophe of 9/11 and shortly after the deliberate release of anthrax as a bioterrorism event.

At that time period the. The NIH put together at that time a blue ribbon panel to look very critically at the readiness of the nation for either additional bioterrorism events or to to kind of weigh in on where the nation stood with respect to its its readiness. As part of the program that ultimately was recommended and adopted by the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease the bio defense network program is a program which stands essentially on three feet. The first component is the regional centers of excellence in emerging infectious disease and bio defense. This is a collection of of major research programs that are are centered in each of the public health districts

throughout the United States. And the intent of the R C E program as it's known was to bring together scientists working in the fields of emerging infectious disease. And to and to really focus their energies on organisms that were of great concern. The so called Category A B or C agents and these historically have been agents that have been understudied. The second pillar of this program is the regional bio containment laboratories. These laboratories are bio safety level 2 and bio safety level 3 only. I believe there are 10 regional bio containment laboratories that are now up and running in the United States. And then the final leg of that of that program was the so-called national containment laboratories.

The NBA elves were laboratories that were designed to provide both bio safety level to safety level 3 and bio safety level for containment and for the more serious it wants for is the highest level of containment that there is so there's never any more security more caution when handling that. Exactly right. It's not that the agents that are that are studied in bio safety level 4 are more contagious than any of the other agents in fact they're very poorly transmitted. The problem is that if one were to be infected with one of these agents there really is no vaccine or there's no therapeutic intervention that can be brought to get very against that infection and mortality rates range from 50 to about 90 percent. So the investigators working under Biosafety Level four containment. You've often perhaps seen them either in

the movies or. Or even in the popular press as being in effect spacesuits. And the reason that they're in spacesuits is really to protect the investigator. All activities all research activities that go on within a biosafety level four laboratory in fact go on in not only in the physical confines of the laboratory persay but also within what is known as a biological safety cabinet. So it's in another added layer of protection for the investigator and another added layer of protection for the community. STEPHEN SMITH You've been covering the story over at the Boston Globe for pretty much since 2003 when the biolab went into the planning stages. Can you talk a little bit about the birth of the bio lab and the history of its impact so far on the south end.

Clearly as was just stated this was an outgrowth of concerns around bioterrorism now. Certainly those concerns have been the subject of some debate over the years whether they have been overblown whether they are justified. But in the wake of the anthrax attacks in the fall of 2001 there was the push to introduce more of these labs at the time I believe there were Ekdin only for bio safety level for labs across the country and so the Bush administration decided to make creation of more of the lab the center of peace efforts around bio terror that were also the smallpox vaccination. Health care workers you might recall. So there were a number of universities and medical centers that entered a hard fought battle to win federal funding for two of the center. Interestingly there were some universities that pursued this in which communities Ruth up

in protest. And the process was continuing in Davis California where Davis is in Boston initially the opposition was particularly well organized. Then on September 30th 2003 with the now B along with universe the gal that had won the competition to have a bio safety level for a lab and I think it's important to point out Stephen that the bio lab is sort of on the fringe area of the south and it's on Harrison of Albany all I'm sorry Albany and it's far up against the Southeast Expressway budding sort of lower Roxbury and the Newmarket district and I think it's safe to say that many of the neighbors in the south and weren't completely aware that you know what was happening in their neighborhood in the sense that sometimes they don't think of that as their neighborhood.

Well I'm not sure a bit. Bet it's fair to say it's not right in the middle of a neighborhood that is the area right. But but but from a residential standpoint you know I know it's what it's a one mile radius we're talking about about the South and in general so it's not a big space but it does seem to have it's a little pocket of other if you will from from someone who might live on say West Street. So way well end up transpiring was that over time the opposition to bio lab became better organize the Conservation Law Foundation became party to legal action as did the Lawyers Committee on civil rights and you know all the legal action taken in both state and federal court in both cases. Judges in each of them have different sort of legal build up. Two to explicate ruling. But if thankfully what the judges at both the federal and state level that

was that construction could proceed on the facility but they called for further environmental review of the project and it was determined by yet another panel and the acronym could just make your brain bleed there are so many involved. There is something called the National Research Council that was brought into bits. It declared that the federal safety of review had been in the fission and the worded the National Institutes of Health to embark on another review. A blue ribbon panel with commission as all of this with going on the construction on the few hundred million dollars that the lady on Albany three or three did and so now we find ourselves at a point where state regulators have said that lower level research can come men in the building and what is known as the bio safety level 2 lab. There are hundreds of the across math that use that. The research will be allowed to begin

there. And what is still hanging fire is the fate of the BSL 4 lab and Dr. Murphy was describing it. If you've seen a movie like Agent then when the user of the lab in which the people working in an it would be in this facility which researcher would be working with pathogens. But they both are virus and clearly in the community. So if you have concerns about that have questioned the wisdom of working with the sort of material in a dense urban community. And a corollary issue is that this is a community in which there are a number of low income residents in there have been you can't issue the social equality rate there. You're listening to the Kelly Crossley Show here on eighty nine point seven WGBH we're going to open up the phone lines in a bit the number to dial will be 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0 we're talking about the bio lab in the south end. And I'd like to

ask Dr. John Murphy again what why the South and you know I mean this is a classic question that comes up whenever there is something that someone doesn't want in their neighborhood but if it wasn't the South End where would it be. Well it would it could be virtually anywhere if it were at the south end. The the reason for at least part of the reason for the award being made initially was because of the rather extraordinary concentration of research scientists in the infectious disease arena that are that live in work in or in Boston and surrounding communities. Of the three components that I talked about earlier of the bio defense program Boston in the greater Boston area is the only poor part of the country that in fact houses all three of those components. So the RC E program is run

by Dr. Dennis Casper at Harvard Medical School Dr. salsa Pori is the director of the regional bio containment laboratory at Tufts at their Grafton site and the NBL here in the south end. So we have not only a an extraordinary. Accumulation of scientists within the community but also recognize that. That we are blessed in a way to be living in a a a city that is renowned for its its state of the art medicine and all hospitals. Or I should say most all teaching hospitals certainly have a facility for infection control and isolation of patients and

in so it's it's all of those components that I think went into that decision. We're talking about the bio lab here on the Kelly Crossley Show. We're opening up the phone lines at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0. Joining us now on the phone is Dolly battle. She is a member of the Community Liaison Committee an outreach group that is working with the by a lab in the community Hi Dolly Welcome to the Kelly Crossley Show. Thank you. What's on your mind. You know I was listening and you know about the location of the bat which is the biggest probably one of the biggest problems for the community. The location and what I've done that you didn't know. But look for an end to alternative site it just was sad. We unability you in you know and that's how it is. So it was late when we come you and you really

got involved. Heard that this lad was going to be giving way at they be you had the grit ready to build it so dearly what where do you live in the south and or Roxbury. Yeah I live in the Roxbury which is right along the south ends but it shares the borders with so out and out mass Babb Yeah yeah mass have a sort of the dividing line for those of lower Rock Spring the south end but it's certainly a lot of a lot of back and forth. So Dr. John Murphy that you know that the process of the bio lab is one that has been much much in discussion over the years about poor process not a lot of transparency. I believe if there was a fire once that at the center before it was built before it was opened that was it. Certainly I think was just a waste basket but one of those things that just feed into the concern that the process was bad. And now here we are stuck with it can you address that. Well sure I mean they're the fire that you talked about in fact was

a was not a fire with flame it was it was a smoldering incident that actually took place in inside an autoclave. And when the autoclave doors were opened there was a release of smoke in vapors that set off the alarm so it wasn't there wasn't a a a a a fire with flame if you will. Accidents occur of course. And and I will say that with respect to the needle we have gone to extraordinary lengths to to orchestrate all activities within that will take place in the laboratory. Should it open at safety level for with with very detailed and precise S.O.P standard operating procedures. We have gone to extraordinary lengths to to mitigate

accidents. We're talking about the bio lab and we're looking for the pros and cons and trying to find out if having this type of research facility in a densely populated part of the city is a good idea we're taking your calls 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0 that's 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0. I'm Sue O'Connell sitting in for Kelly Crossley and you're listening to WGBH Boston Public Radio. This program is on WGBH thanks to you. And Newberry court. A full service residential community in Concord Massachusetts supporting PR eyes international news

show the world weekdays at 3:00 and 6:00 here on eighty nine point seven. WGBH. And the women summit at Bryant University on March 15th celebrating 15 years of empowerment and inspiration with morning Joe's Mika Brzezinski and Joe Scarborough. Actress Marlee Matlin and businesswoman Carla Harris Bryant dot edu. On the next I have a Glock the lightweight high capacity magazine Austrian pistol became the gun of choice for American criminals and law enforcement agents found its way into crime movies TV shows and rap lyrics. We talked with Paul Barrett author of Glock The Rise of America's Gun. Join us. This afternoon at two point seven.

Hello I'm John Abbott president of WGBH. The new year is always an exciting time. Especially when it coincides with an all new season of a show like Downton Abbey the British drama brought here to the states courtesy of WGBH his own Masterpiece Classic WGBH supporters keep an eye out for my letter about the next great series for masterpiece. And thanks for helping WGBH plan another incredible year. Incredible program. Welcome back to the Kelly Crossley Show I'm Sue O'Connell sitting in for Kelly we're talking about the bee you biolab its presence in Boston south and has been an ongoing source of controversy. Last month officials granted preliminary approval to begin level 2

research in the facility. Joining me to talk through the pros and cons of this bio lab are STEPHEN SMITH The city editor of The Boston Globe. Dr. John Murphy interim director of the B U bio lab and Barton Cutler who is the author of the hot house effect. He's also written about the bee you buy a lab for the Huffington Post and you you can join the conversation 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0 that's 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0. But now I want to go to you you've written quite a bit over the years about the bio lab in general and in specifically and in general about these sort of facilities across America. Do we still need the biolab model do we still need this sort of active investigation on threats like anthrax and other contagious diseases both as weapons as and as natural emergence. Well we certainly need research into bio toxins and disease. Nobody argues that. Whether we need level for

bio safety labs as it was stated as the Senate stated the impetus for building more of these labs came after the anthrax scare of 2001. The other side of that is that the anthrax came from a lab. You know Dr. Bruce Ivins is the person you know of is deceased. You know but excused of sending it. I think that points to one of the major problems with these labs. The best place to get weaponized biotoxins the most dangerous scenarios for them being spread around is their continual production and concentration in a level four lab now. Part of what happened after 9/11 was that whoever was involved in any aspect of homeland defense was we came. You know eligible for a lot of money and I'm not saying it's you know

necessarily just of money grab but this is a matter where many facilities many universities are getting money for anything related to defense just like in 1099 if you're in e-commerce you can get venture capital thrown money you know that cause the proliferation of all levels of bio labs the oversight of those labs is has been called by you know the geo by the National Research Council is still rather appalling. Tom Coburn who's a conservative senator from Oklahoma said we don't know what we're doing. He didn't mean lab by lab but the overall oversight. So there's a lot of danger involved even in the most State of the art level for labs and part of it is that they're producing the versions of these bio toxins that are most likely to reach the public. And I don't there are so many avenues of medical research that need to be done and on diseases that are more likely to be socially generated.

The reality is you can't have it both ways you can't say these things are so dangerous we need you know depending how you're counting up to 15 level four labs you know several are in one location. We can say that we need them to prevent these very dangerous toxins from being this virus through the U.S. and then say that the logical reaction to that is to generate more and more of those toxins in a very concentrated space. And if I say one more thing before I pause. You know this issue of the South then you know there are very you know I do believe there are social justice aspects to it but the South End doesn't have a wall around it. Basically the lab is in the middle of Boston. It's in the middle of the Boston metropolitan area which has millions of people in it. It's a few miles from Logan. And as you mentioned it's right on the expressway and very close to the pike. If indeed any of these

agencies biological agents left the lab they're in perfectly sited for a disastrous dispersal throughout the population. This apartment of Homeland Security estimated that if in the lab that's being built in Hatton Kansas had a tough enough disease event which got out into the neighboring area would cost between nine and fifty billion dollars to decontaminate if they ever fully did so what would the price be if that happened in Boston. And what would the price be if it's with a much more toxic agent in the middle of an area doesn't matter if the South ends a mile radius. That's right outside the city there's no doubt about it. You think the eighty nine point seven WGBH an online at WGBH dot org I'm Sue O'Connell. We're talking about the bee you buy a lab I'm joined by Stephen Smith the editor of The Boston for the Boston Globe Dr. John Murphy interim director of the bee You bio

lab and Barton Kunstler the author of the hot house effect. For more coverage on the story you can go to WGBH dot org to hear reporter Tony Waterman's tour of the bee you buy a lab and watch Emily Rooney's interview with community organizer Claire Allen you can get in on this conversation now at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0. I want to follow up back with you Dr. Murphy and I mean there's there's some what of the horse already out of the barn regarding what scientists are working on and whether scientists can. Forward the wrong usage the evil usage of such things. But I do want to ask what the nature of human nature is in this we were sort of looking at each other during AI before the show went on about the ship wreckage of the cruise and the human error part or the human determination that happened within it within this accident as it seems to be happening. You know I recently went on a cruise and was telling my daughter after having seen Titanic all

that will never happen again we've got all sorts of things you know gee PSN radar and of course it's only as good as the human who's using it. What do you say to critics who are concerned about about the level of safety you can have when you're actually using humans who are in charge of it. Well you know I think the the the quantity of the of the risk will be addressed in the supplemental risk assessment should shortly be released from the NIH and in Washington. With regard to the the ship accident off the coast of Italy. From everything that I've read it would appear as though the captain did not follow standard operating procedures deliberately took a short cut in order to satisfy the. The whimsy of some of his

crew and if indeed that is the case then it is. It is a clear violation of S.O.P when when I made a few remarks earlier in the program I suggested to you that research in Biosafety Level 4 is very highly choreographed and and is is must follow standard operating procedures. And there's there's very strict oversight of that. There are cameras in every laboratory. There is a two person rule within the level 4 laboratory which means that if at all times two individuals two researchers must be present in any part of that facility. And and again this is a safety measure not only for the investigators but

also a safety measure for handling many of these agents. I'd like to to to step back a moment because. The word biological weapons was raised just a moment ago. It is it has been the policy of Boston University from the very very beginning that all research that that will go on within this facility again if it were to open it will be as transparent as humanly possible. There are institutional biosafety committees there are institutional committees for the care and use of animals that are used in research. There is the Boston Public Health Commission. All of the deliberations of research protocols that everyone not only scientists within the needle but everyone within the context of Boston University who does biological

research has to submit their proposals for scrutiny by their peers. All of these committees have a public representative and I think Boston University is one of the very few universities in the country where the minutes of the institutional bias safety committee are posted online. So every experiment that is going to be done is going to be vetted not only by the institution but also by the Boston Public Health Commission. And and follow again very very strict and regimented guidelines for operations. Barton counseling the folks at so the news have gone on a tour of the bio lab gone on the safety tour learned a lot about access to these levels. What is your feeling on the general safety of these types of facilities across America.

Well across America there are real problems because the lack of. Coherent oversight by the government. You know lab levels 3 and 2. But let's speak to the being used. There's no question that the engineering in the lab. You know the protocols are going to be state of the art. The problem with state of the art is that means it's the best you could do at this moment. It doesn't necessarily refer to the fact that you've absolute created absolute guarantees and you mention the cruise ship. I think on a broader level we live in an age of ungovernable technologies and systems. You know the few Kashima nuclear plant who would have combined innocent scenario you know the tsunami with the earthquake and so on it. Well the earthquake with the tsunami and so forth the economic system you know we can't figure out how to fix it it's so tangled up. This is all you know the problem

with the level four labs especially in a major metropolitan area is that no matter how many protocols you have there's always that human factor. You know that you mention for instance who's vetted more who's background study more than US astronauts. And yet a few years ago you had one astronaut put on a diaper so she would have to make any bathroom stops. Dr. cost country as fast as she could to try and murder the wife of another astronaut. Human beings at some point over the years. We're not talking about the lab being pristine safe the first week it's open they become familiar with protocols protocols get violated equipment the grades but unfortunately we can't do anything without those pesky humans. That's right. So why put the chance the margin of error where there were really severe consequences for error in the middle of a major city and one other aspect of this that these labs are being

driven in large part by the fear of terrorism. And again no matter how many background checks you do you don't know who's going to be what somebody is agenda is going to be you don't know who's under such pressure they finally snap and so forth. What's to prevent somebody from infecting themselves. And you know there's always a loophole there aren't hundreds of people watching the hundreds of cameras. There's not one person in each cameras so you cannot find you cannot screen an infected person. You don't know they're infected as they're leaving the lab you can't decontaminate them. There's so many ways that individuals can be contaminated the CDC in Atlanta said they were 395 spillages and different types of incidence in bio labs over the course of seven years in this past decade. Those. You know several of those did result in infections and a couple in death. So the more we deal with these

toxins and the more sophisticated we make them whether we weaponized or whether we're just doing like they just create a flu that is more potentially dangerous. They create it into labs. Just the past week or two the news came out. We are creating the very dangerous that the labs are supposedly there to alleviate and those are not the biggest dangers that face our society in terms of health. Mayor Tom Menino has has come out and you may be wondering where he is on his stance and as we mentioned you can listen and watch the interview that Tony Waterman did at WGBH dot org. Well here's what Mayor Tom Menino has to say about the biolab people say to me why urban area while we want to watch my shop and hospitals are here so we could share that research with the hospitals and we want to turn back to we want to write you know say so you share the ideas with a leader when it comes to research. We want you to do the research but also to states where you can now join the conversation here at 8

7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0 we're going to go to line 1 and speak with Sara who's joining us from Weymouth. Hi Sarah welcome to the Kelly cross show. Thank you so much. What's on your mind. Well you know I've been listening. Since you began the conversation about whether or not there is such a thing as a as a perfect or good location and I think it's always easier to say well what isn't a good location than what is in a good location of my backyard. I don't live in the Boston area for about 3 years now but I lived in Texas before it and though I didn't live in the Galveston area directly I certainly felt very uncomfortable with the idea of having to buy a lab in Galveston. I don't feel that way about Boston and part of the reason is because of location. The UTM base of the University of Texas Medical Branch which is located in Galveston is the largest medical school and training. Facility for physicians.

And. In since 2001 when these sort of decisions were beginning that campus has. Evacuated twice to the hurricane and one time the entire student body was moved to Austin and didn't go back for a year and so makes me really nervous. It made me really nervous. As a resident of Texas to think that a bio lab like this would be on that campus and what happens when not if. What happens when the next hurricane hit. You know Galveston gets hit all the time by hurricanes it's right there on the coast and it's right in one of the busiest the most popular tourist areas of the state as well. So I think that while it might be disconcerting or off putting for people in the downtown Boston area to think of the slab I feel being in a city you have more eyes watching more sort of awareness and there's less of that environmental concern which I think is even less predictable and even. More destructive

than the fear of actually I'm in error. Thanks Sarah we take your point we're going to jump over to lying too and speak with James kini. He's a member of the community liaison committee again and a group that works with the biolab and the community. James welcome to the Kelly Crossley Show what's on your mind. Well thank you for inviting me. I am with Dolly battle a member of the C L C and as I understand our role is to communicate to the community we're not to be agents to be you. So my feeling is there's already 17 labs in the Boston area that deal with BSL three in the city and this is the only building specifically built for such research dealing with BSL three BSL four other facilities have been modified. I became interested in serving on the

ACLC which is an unpaid position because of my background of 25 years working as a Celt. Following the pharmaceutical and biotechnology industry really it fits into my general interests. We're going to take a break when we get back we're going to take more of your phone calls we're talking about the bee you buy a lab and whether or not it's a good thing to have this research facility in a densely populated part of the city. You can join the conversation 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0. I'm Sue O'Connell sitting in for Kelly Crossley. With. This program is made possible thanks to you. And the Harvard innovation lab a university

wide center for innovation where entrepreneurs from Harvard the Austin Community Boston and beyond engage in teaching and learning about entrepreneurship. Information at II labs at Harvard dot edu. And frontline investigating the ongoing meth problem in America and its devastating impact on individuals families and communities. Watch the meth epidemic Tuesday night at 10:00 on WGBH too. As the world brings you more than just the day's news in Cameron We have two people around the globe for a country like the rich. Join us and hear the world.

Coming up at three point seven. If you have a vehicle that no longer works for you. How about putting it to work for public radio. Unwanted car truck. And in addition to earning a 2012 tax deduction you'll also be supporting the programs that you depend on right here on eighty nine point seven vehicle donation program handles all of the paperwork and will even send someone out to take away the unwanted vehicle. For more information call 8 6 6 400 9 4 2 4. The headline you want to know more about. Stories to share. Welcome back to the Kelly Crossley Show I'm Sue O'Connell sitting in for Kelly Crossley. If you're just joining us we're talking about the bee you buy a lab and what it means for the city to have this

research facility located in such a densely populated part of town. We're joined today by Stephen Smith the city editor of The Boston Globe. Dr. John Murphy interim director of the bee You bio lab and Barton Kunstler author of the hot house effect. He's also written about the bio lab for the Huffington Post. And we're taking your calls you can join the conversation at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0. STEPHEN SMITH I think that it was a great point that our caller Sara made in terms of where can you live without having some sort of facility near you that you might have concerns about. And although clearly the math of how to contain a problem is on the side of something more remote. The math about having the number of experts who could could work toward containing a problem seems to be on the side of having it more near an urban area. What one can say about this code debate without fear of contradiction is

that it has caused us all to focus on the research that's going on in guillotine across often and and across the country and to debate these issues and it's really a prism that you can twist it one way and support an argument twisted another and support the opposing argument. And certainly we saw that in 2005 when the Globe broke the story that three researchers at Boston University who had been working with germ tularemia had become infected in a lower security level lab that again shown a klieg light on the potential for problems in the lab. And as a result of that as Murphy has noted the Boston Public. Health Commission has reified policies regarding the lab safety and and so that serves as a reminder that development of the bio safety level for a lab has served as a

reminder that there is a complex three search. Most of it it must be said going on safely but there is the potential for accident potential for danger. And so is his underline the importance of a robust regulatory system to monitor problems and to respond swiftly. But again you you twist the prism in a different way and supporters of the sort of labs will say to you well. What happens if somehow Ebola gets to the shores of the United States. Even if we're comfortable sitting here saying Well Ebola that's a problem in a different part of that world why are we researching it here. What proponents of the project will say is we need the facilities to be able to respond swiftly to outbreak. That is the. And if you are someone who is going to take a more global perspective the need to search

for treatment in vaccines against these diseases that it is. Jack Murphy pointed out are difficult to spread but if you are the person with Ebola or Marburg or. Each one in your chain. Dr. Murphy what about the transparency issue to that. STEPHEN SMITH raises around that the researchers who were infected it wasn't immediately apparent that that had happened and the Globe did in fact do reporting to uncover it and I know that there were members of the Southend community who felt that this was more of the same in terms of a lack of transparency. Yes and in all fairness I have to say that that I was the individual who was asked by the medical school to take over the the operation of that grant as it went forward.

After the principal investigator moved on to a different institution the. The first that I became aware of that laboratory acquired disease was was really quite quite late in. In October I believe and it was it was a kind of a. Unexpected observation that led investigators to look more closely and. And then suddenly to realize that in Agent that I was shipped in to Boston University it was the live vaccine strain of Francis Ella tularemia that agent is a BSL to Egypt. And the investigators were working under BSL to containment. It turned out that that that that sample organism when it

arrived at the university was contaminated and it was contaminated at a level of one organism. Pathogenic Francis Ella per million organisms to live vaccine strain. Since that outbreak we have instituted instituted a policy at Boston University that attenuated strains of any agent that are brought into the university are brought to one bio safety level higher than is required. Those organisms are certified to be the attenuated strain. At that higher level of containment before they're released back to to the level which is appropriate. That one works. I would also if I mean just point out very quickly that there are several incidences in which individuals from the United

States have been spelunking cave exploring in Africa have come back to the United States have presented at their local hospital of the incident I'm thinking about is a gentleman in in Colorado. Survived a very serious infection through medical intervention. Read about the death of a woman a year later in the Netherlands and the fact that she was spelunking in the same cave. The fact that she in fact had succumbed to Mark Berg virus prompted this gentleman in Colorado to send his serum to CDC. Indeed he brought Marber virus back to the United States. No one in his family no one of his friends no one in the health care delivery system who cared for him it in the hospital was was sickened by

that exposure to that gentleman. BARTON It's a small small world. It is but I think they should probably put a sign up at the cave to prevent people spilling thing there rather than build a by a lab in Boston to research the Marburg virus. I don't. I do want to address a couple of facts a couple of issues that have been brought up. One is important one is the weaponization issue even if politically you believe that we have to create these weapons which I don't but even if you took that tack the fact is that a lot of weaponization research can go on without it being explicitly aimed at producing what we would call a weapon. I mean the U.S. at Fort Detrick in 2000 US created a particular pathogen that was going to be used to destroy coca plant roots. And we do so for 40

years unfortunately it also kills people. You know there's a lot of ways in which if you want to create a pathogen that has certain qualities to it that don't necessarily have to be called weaponized but can indeed be turned in the weapon in weapons. And the Pentagon a lot of their research not just with bio defense but with machinery and equipment does in fact draw upon non-weapon equipment in order to be utilized more effectively as weapons and I think there's also a lot of scientists believe that defensive. Research in you know bio agents is easily translate you can even separated from the potential create a fence of weapons out of that saying we see I mean I imagine that you have to kind of know how to make it in order to defend against and we're the ones the labs are the ones that make most of it. You know the few incidents there's you know there's two questions here one is where to put it. Now this whole business the

environment you know is more amenable to it in Boston in Galveston I guess is an argument you want to use if you live in Galveston but the reality is we have enough potential environmental events and again to get back to the main way that such breaches could occur. Human events that can definitely expose the public to these you know to these agents the person made the point there are 17 BSL three labs in Boston. I would say Let's check out how they're being. Overseen the various commissions that Jack mentioned they're all well and good and they will catch let's say possible violations of either standard operating procedures or you know the parameters of research. But this research is going to be driven by the Grant Fund granting facilities and agencies of the federal government and needs that are determined to some extent outside the lab they're the ones who do the requests for proposals. They're the ones who do

the you know determine where the grants are going. And I know there's a lot of scientists who do their own independent research but the money coming in is going to be coming in from the government and the line between oh let's find a vaccine and between finding ways of making the agents more disposable or aiming them as the U.S. is part of U.S. policy at the land in the resorts as of potential enemies is very thin and it won't be easy to discern the difference between that kind of research. Dr. Murphy when is the full open date for the bio lab. That depends upon the courts. Yeah the risk assessment as I suggested earlier we anticipate will be released perhaps within a month's time. It will be put out for public comment. Those comments then will be incorporated into a final report which either will be approved or not by the by the NIH. If it is approved those documents then will be sent to the court for hope for a final disposition.

Well we've been talking about the bee you biolab the pros and cons of having it here in Boston. I've been speaking with Stephen Smith the city editor of The Boston Globe. Dr. John Murphy interim director of the bio lab and Barton Kunstler the author of the hot house effect. Thank you all of you for joining us and calling in and participating in the discussion. I'm Sue O'Connell in for Kelly Crossley. I'll be back tomorrow to review President Obama's State of the Union address. The callee Crosley show is a production of WGBH Boston Public Radio. The hour.