We Shall Overcome

People with a stake in the only government think that. Thinking oh my God oh those are some of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee or snake as it is generally no car is the struggle for Negro and white equality. Into the very heart of the Deep South. Settling in negro communities student volunteers carry out programs for democracy aimed beyond legal be segregation. The executive secretary of state is James Foreman a young man. Who has been generally recognized as a major Negro leader in this racial card console. I National Educational Television presents. We show over from. James Forman executive secretary of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. A conversation with Kenneth Clark Professor of Psychology at the City College of New York. Women like to know a little about you and through you. Something

about the young people who are associated with you first I'd like to know how old are you. Well I'm the only staff person in the organization I'm 34. The average age is about 22 23. How did you happen to get involved in this rather direct. And I think quite risky. Approach to you trying to get the rights for the growth. Why are you boring for example. I was born in Chicago but I was raised in the northern part of Mississippi which is in Marshall County. And in Marshall County My parents never voted my grandmother dad without voting. And right today we have a voter registration project in Marshall County and just last week my aunt who has taught school for some 30 years in the state of Mississippi recently became a registered voter. Where did you go to high school. Well went to high school in Chicago at Inglewood high school and went to college while I graduated from college and Roosevelt went to a couple of other colleges but

that was also in Chicago. You went to Roosevelt College in Chicago. Yes. And you go directly from Roosevelt college back to the south. Or no I had to get involved in the Student Nonviolent. Well what happened was that I had a grant in aid from the Ford Foundation to study African affairs at Boston University and I spent a year there and I think that the. All doing this time is even doing college. I was tormented by the idea of how can I get back into the south. And how can I put my education for the use of people. And myself in the south. And Ive never worked on a clear cut plan for the US and. The more I began to study African affairs and more I became convinced that. A mass action was necessary in the United States that one thing that we that Negroes lacked. Really was a strong effective protest movement and we saw shouted from the rooftops.

Jim. I'm sure that by now snake has evolved certain techniques who implement their program and move deep south. Could you tell us something about these techniques. One technique that we use whole regional workshops in Mississippi during the last month or so we have had some 250 students from across the northern part of the state come to workshops. These students go back into their local areas and begin the registration campaign. That's just one method in which we have a full time staff. Or do you recruit your workers your volunteers. Well we have sort of a two prong recruitment process. We try to get one in locally as we try and involve local people because they ultimately must be the ones to solve their own problems. And then of course we try to get students out of the Southern colleges Negro students to take out of school at least a year out of school to help us in the program. And of course we have this summer

some 30 white students from the north who are working in the deep south primarily in southwest Georgia. What happens when the youngsters go into communities in which they don't live. Do you. Well you know the only program there. Well usually we have a survey team of two people let us just take the case study Greenwood Mississippi where Sam Bloch. Willie Peacock went there last August but it's about five or six months before you really form a beach here because during that time they encountered many patterns of resistance. I mean for instance the first building where they had an office the owner was intimidated white people came up the stairs with chains trying to lynch them. Churches refused to open up. There's just a general pattern of fear. Do you

have to wait until. A crisis or some dramatic incident occurs before you get cooperation and they go community. It depends on the area in these hard core areas of Mississippi where we work and of course Alabama and Georgia too. There's just so much fear that people have been brainwashed actually by the local segregation is and why you plug away. It's usually a crises which is a turning point. And of course we don't try to make a crises and I guess that just evolves out of the nature of the work that we do. One of the main dangers. Your members face when they're actually in the field trying to increase the number of negroes who are eligible to vote. So police brutality is the number one problem in the south. Police brutality we have right now need to be in Mississippi 45 people who are in jail. This is a form of intimidation and brutality. Is this rather common is common is common if you don't have the

violence such as the shooting of Jimmy Travice beating on one of our workers in Alabama has been registering voters about 10 state troopers are frequently practicing very well in some form or other that I think that it is almost once a week. If not more. And this is not to mention the constant patterns of harassment inflicted on local people. I was going. To have to go on the book. How do you go about trying to educate a community. Covert your care and do your work for effectively and well while we try to explain to him that we're going to be there. I think that the greatest fear that people have is the fear that we will leave them start something

and be there. Then we explain that we are sacrificing and then we are we're trying to work for perhaps no more money than they make on their jobs so we can identify with them. First as in Mississippi most of us well over all those because this is important you see you go down there with a suit and a tab and the local people feel that perhaps you're being uppity. And if you were there sort of identifying with the earth as they do in a sense there is a great a ripoff between you and them and then they don't feel self-conscious. Then we tell them about our own experiences own suffering and then try to get them to discuss their own fears canvas. We make friends with the young people. All of this is you try to blend into the community you live with the people. That is correct that is correct wherever we possibly can we try to live in the community.

So I think that most of the sociologists would say that there should be a blending of the academic approach in the actual field work and of course a lot of our people are college trained individuals who are just doing. Practical sociology of IMO action sociology. Are you still pushing ahead. Oh yes that is right your statement that is correct is because as a matter of fact we registered more voters in Greenwood after the harassment only because we doubled the number of our workers and we tried to convince people that these intimidations only result of their not registering to vote. What do you think can be done about this. Should be done. Well I think that we definitely have to make some changes in the voting laws and I think that the nation itself has to be concerned and some way we have got to sort of dramatize and educate people to these little daily incidents of a Rassmann which go on in these areas where we are

working. Where do you consider this particular voter registration campaign is so important. It's essential that people be able to decide who they want to elect for their local government as well as state and national representatives. I think that. People ought to politic with their local representatives and their congressman and even just they all Dimon and let him know how they feel about it. While I think that the entire country ought to get behind the civil rights legislation which is currently in Congress and I think also that we ought to ask for just universal suffrage that we should not allow the sixth grade literacy qualification to get to be pay asked that we should simply say that everybody is 21 years of old old ought to have the right to vote. But more than that if we could all just become concern and to start talking about this thing and writing letters and dissipating and

in whatever way is important in your own community the response of the older of the older people is something very beautiful to see women send it back in 80 years old going down to register to vote saying that well I just want to do this for freedom before I did that. Or how many followers would you say that you have in the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. All told. Well it's very difficult to estimate the total number. I think that in terms of responsiveness anywhere 15 20000 maybe 30000 people but that's that's just an estimate and it's perhaps even greater than that. But we work on the principle of a stay at and a student structure. And we feel that sort of a disciplined staff is much better to effectively carry on our program in other words it's alright to leave it up to volunteers. But we have to know that the work is being

carried out. Whereas in 61 for instance we only had 16 staff people. Right now we have 62 which is a tremendously well I've always been interested in knowing how do you get students to. Demonstrate you know how do you get to go downtown in Birmingham or in Nashville or any other city and assert their rights as human beings. And how do you get them to expose themselves. Well one you ought to be willing to expose your own self. I don't think you should ask anybody to do anything that you are not prepared to do yourself. And I think that this is the prevailing opinion among the members in snake as we call the student committee and that if you didn't stray bag sample that these things can be done than other people are willing to go along with you in a sense. And I think that most people including in the north and the south really want to do something about segregation.

The problem of. Control or discipline for example with a. Technique of this art. The leaders have to be pretty sure. That the followers will. Be part of a. Pattern of decision. Policy for example if you want to start a demonstration you must be pretty sure that you'll have the manpower in which to start a generation. And it's equally important to be able to stop a demonstration. Now what is there about your organization. That makes it possible for you to have this kind of discipline. Was to see first. You know we try to get rid of the leader follower concept. I mean we want to work together. And we try to make decisions together because we're all involved in the situation in that the risk that one takes is no greater than the other. And sometimes going to jail is easy as part of any demonstration. And that if you haven't seen me one a willingness to

in segregation a commitment to even die. Is necessary. And all the members of your group really have this commitment to die if necessary. Well I think so I think this is certainly true of the staff when we go into any kind of demonstration we don't tell people it is a Rosie thing in jail that we try to point out the worst aspects so that they can become psychologically to pay it. For any physical attack upon them and as I say even for death itself if you can become psychologically prepared for death. Does this include psychological prepared not to retaliate. Yes. Do you find this a difficult thing to. Communicate in your training. Well not really because you know if the group is committed and disciplined people will go along. There are many people you know I suspect that the vast majority of Negroes in the United States are not committed to the principles of nonviolence you know. I mean that they really want to retaliate.

But this is an important factor in selecting people who work with you. Yeah that's why we try to get those people who are not going to do this and as of yet we have not hating incidents of anyone retaliating on the spot there. What is the relationship between your group Martin Luther King's operation that's also nonviolent isn't it. Yeah well the Southern Christian Leadership Conference was of course formed out of the Montgomery. City and a rather bus boycott. And in the spring of 1960 when the student was bringing up all of the south it did call a conference of students at Valley North Carolina and the students at that conference decided that they wanted to. Have an independent organization and perhaps some of it was because this decision was based upon the spirit of the vote and perhaps the feeling on the part of the students that if they did not have it in the normalization that they may be compromised in some of their decisions. They wanted to be independently so actually is it a fact that you do

work. Closely with. Dr. King. What was it called the southern suburbs recently to govern Christian Leadership Conference you work closely with them but you are not in any way organizationally target. That's right because you see less women Albany you know when you saw all the headlines about Dr. King and a lot of our people were doing some of the legwork and so forth. Same is true to some extent even in Birmingham. What about your relationship with the NWC P.. Well we try to cooperate with all groups. We have sometimes work with the news consuls. We certainly use the legal facilities of the Legal Defense and Education Fund. They help to bail you out sometimes. Well they don't they don't provide any bail. But after all they solicit money on the basis of providing legal services. And there's just no need for us to duplicate this as long as they are willing to handle the legal cases OK.

Well one other the core. Players as you know we have on racial equality we have very good relationships with gays of some joint projects freedom walk from one freedom ride. Well we've asked about. Martin King's group the NWC P. Corps. I'm sure you heard about the Black Muslims. Very articulate. Member of that group leader was to Malcolm X. Has said some interesting things about. The. Integration thrust in the south. Do you have any relationship with Mr. X at all. Well not with met effect I've never met him in Atlanta. There are some disciples there Jeremih X I think is the leader of the temple there. And your operation is based in Atlanta. That's where our national headquarters is in Atlanta. And we've had many occasions to talk with him. Well a couple of forms. But I think one of the things that they don't particularly like being called Black

Muslims to some extent I think they would rather have the term Muslims I don't know. Yes. But do you. Do you sense any opposition from them or any criticism. All Yes well you know they're always criticizing us. I think though that a lot of their criticism is just a tactical operation in fact I think that the Muslim ideology is simply a tactical operation. What do you mean by that. Well I mean the the the concept of a state. For instance is maybe real in a sense to some of the members but I really don't believe that the Muslim is expect to carve out a state in the United States for instance. And I think that there are some very good things about Muslims in the sense I think that their emphasis upon the social and economic program is very sound because it does give. The negro masses a degree of confidence in themselves I think also that their interests into the political sphere is

going to bring them closer to other groups. I mean this is something new. Yeah this is something new what it could have been predicted. Well you see as my fact I fell to three years ago that it was only just a matter of time to the Muslims were more coordinated before they entered the political sphere. But as of now they still assert that they. Are for complete separation and segregation. They do not want the negro to have anything to do with the white man whom they see as a devil right. Well certainly this is not consistent with. Your goals the goals of the end WCP or core. The student of the. Southern Christian. Group. Why is this a rallying cry maybe this is what they want so you know I can't debate and argue about what another man's belief is. But I think it's just a tactical operation something to sort of captivate the mind you know.

Sometimes you have to to. Stretch out to the father's poll in order to rally people when you know one they said three years ago that they were going to vote. They didn't believe in cooperating with the government and yet they're voting now. See I think that is goes back that there's going to be a great deal of modification in the Muslim program but I think that the important thing is not to use the Muslims as a pole of reference that the poll of reference has to be the segregation which exists in the society that the Muslims couldn't exist if we didn't permit segregation to exist. I think that's a very good point to come back to your program the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. What. Are the goals. The short range in the long range goal the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. Well I think the basic objective is one is to. Keep the protest movement alive. Because we are firmly convinced that if you don't protest against segregation very few changes are going to be made and there have been tremendous changes in this

country in the last three years and I think most observers would indicate that since the beginning of this due movement the changes have been extremely profound. It's one thing the other thing is that. We of course want to see a little bit more political democracy acid into the south a little bit more total political vacuum. Let's live live would you see a little bit more because we would they would be willing to settle for just a little bit more. Well maybe that's just a misstatement. But in Mississippi for instance we feel that East Lynne instead is is most of the country does that hope really unrepresentative people and we feel also that in the north. People who are affected people are affected by the decisions of some of the Southern politicians and that you really can't have a better democracy in two you sort of change this. So we're working on that level. We ultimately of course we want to see a society where

there is an absence of segregation and where people can develop into allergies. Well I do think that you're going to succeed in attaining. A society in which there is an absence of segregation. And with each American citizen will be able to develop. His own potentialities and contribute to the strength of our nation. I do but I think that it's going to demand certain things are going to demand that everybody works. And we can't sit down in the parlor at night and talk about segregation or ending it or going to have to get out and do something. And and I would just leave it at that if everybody would make some little step toward ending it. Then of course the problem would be solved in the system this course goes the gamut from the government on down to just the lonely house way. So what do you think the federal government has contributed to the attainment of this goal.

While I think that in the area of voting that the government has done something you know in terms of filing some of these injunctions when we were in jail in Greenwood for instance it would in a filed a suit which was never tracked. But I think. That it has failed very very seriously because you see this problem of saving a nation is really not a problem branch of the federal government do you mean when you are has failed. Yeah well I think that all three of them have failed perhaps not to Supreme Court but the the executive and the legislative department have failed and perhaps and legislated partners feel the most miserably because it does have a lot of senators. But you see the ending of segregation ought not to be the responsibility of the negro. It ought to be the responsibility of the government. Well why does NOT the government understand this. Well I think you see get well I don't know what I think. See I just have a little theory maybe this is where you see a Muslim or something like this but see I'm

convinced that if every white person in the United States could be in a group for two weeks in Mississippi their segregation would no longer exist. I mean you don't have to be all your life. You know we've been just frustrated in torn minute by these little acts of segregation and discrimination all of our last. But just to be a Negro for two weeks would make one come back and do everything in the Senate in the Congress of the United States to change segregation suppose. Segregation patterns do not substantially change. Suppose in spite of all of your effort you have to pursue. All of the groups working to make this a more democratic society. America. Only gives token. Evidence of change. What then. Why they were me is serious trouble. Because. You see it's difficult as you know there's been this wave of violence to

some extent this spring. Well it's difficult for the advocates of nonviolence to restrain everybody. I mean there are people who watch us being beaten for instance and there are people who do not like this and people who are going to react in a violent fashion. These are the Birmingham nation we'll couple other places now. I think that the government has a responsibility to make none violence work. You know that is that where a police officer maliciously attacks a person and let me point out that police brutality I think is a soul calls not the sole calls one of the most important detriment to the attaining of civil rights because people are really afraid of the police and I imagine I would be too. You know if I had lived under this kind of a police state which exist in Alabama and Mississippi and so forth. Well anyway it seems me that. It's not the duty of an innocent negro bystander to prosecute a police officer.

Under the Constitution this comes within the purview of the federal government and I think that we ought to move the federal government the executive branch ought to move more forcefully to prosecute these people. Now it really doesn't make any difference to me you know whether they prosecute but I'm talking from the point of view of the people on the street and from the point of view of the stability of our gov That's right. You see because you know sometimes we don't believe in suing people but yet the man on the street who sees another policeman hit person is going to react very violently. Tell me Jeremy. How do you account for the fact that young people like yourself and. Even younger. Are willing to expose themselves day in and day out to this type of physical danger. If not that. What what accounts for this. Kenneth. I mean. You know see ad rather be on say the Left Bank. Paris somewhere reading a book or something like that. But.

Segregation is such a vengeful evil that somebody at some point in their life tested is sad for a group of people that we're going to try to do our little part to end it. So this music we're just tired of segregation. And we just want to do all the weekend. Was was. Was. Was the book. Was written was. There it.

Was. A National Educational Television.