WGBH Radio; The Callie Crossley Show

I'm Cally Crossley This is the Cali Crossley Show. Today we're talking about disgust about what grosses us out and why this reflex is deep within the human psyche. Does a scent of spoiled milk make you wince. Does the sight of maggots and mold have your stomach doing somersaults. In her new book That's Disgusting Unraveling the Mysteries of Repulsion. Psychologist Rachel Herz takes on the science behind the things that make us gag. Grimace and recall. Hers explains there's a reason why the things that booze and wriggle and re creep us out. They signal decomposition contamination and disease discussed is a survival mechanism that keeps us tuned in to the threats that can do us in. From there we move on to more slimy Gore with a preview of this year's side five film fest. At the Somerville Theatre. Up next grossing out from brain science to the big screen. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi saying. President Obama's

promising speedy relief to the country's hardest hit homeowners under more than 25 billion dollar settlement with five of the nation's largest banks that were accused of pressuring some borrowers into giving up their homes without being sure the foreclosure was even legal. That's where you raise your family that's where. Your kids memories are formed. That's your stake your claim on the American dream and the person signed the document can take enough time to even make sure that the foreclosure was legitimate. The president speaking a short time after federal and state authorities announced they had reached a deal that could provide relief to about two million households affected by the foreclosure crisis. NPR's Greg Wyndham reports Forty nine states have signed on to the deal which is the result of a year long push to settle investigations into alleged foreclosure abuses by lenders. Attorney General Eric Holder says the settlement is about righting the wrongs that led to the housing market collapse. We are using this opportunity to fix a broken system and to lay the

groundwork for a better future. Homeowners who owe the banks more than their houses are worth will have their mortgage balances reduced or be able to refinance. People have already lost homes to foreclosure will get checks for about $2000. Economist Gus Fauchet with PNC Financial says though the deal is not big enough to fix all the damage currently mortgage owners are 100. Have billions of dollars underwater on their home. So I think this will help but it's not going to be the cure all for the housing market. But Fauchet says the deal could help stabilize home prices. Craig Wyndham NPR News Washington. Well the U.S. House has overwhelmingly approved a bill that curbs insider trading by lawmakers and other government officials. But this comes over the objections of some Republicans and Democrats who say the legislation lacks measures to fight corruption. Syrian government forces continue the bombardment of the city of Holmes which is a flashpoint of anti-government protests. NPR's Kelly McEvers reports the offensive is now in its sixth day with hundreds of people reported killed.

Activists and witnesses in homes say government forces continue to pound neighborhoods that have been the most fierce in the resistance to the Syrian regime. Holmes has been a center of protests and Syria's uprising began nearly a year ago. Activists inside homes who are broadcasting live video streams say tanks mortars and rockets are firing on mostly residential areas. The offensive comes as the international community is searching for a way to stop the bloodshed. A U.N. Security Council resolution has been vetoed. Now the U.N. might send observers in tandem with the Arab League. Syrian President Bashar al-Assad has repeatedly pledged to end the violence and begin reforms his government says it's fighting terrorists in Homs. Kelly McEvers NPR News Beirut. This is NPR News. And from the WGBH radio news room in Boston I'm Christina Cohen. Massachusetts Attorney General Martha Coakley has agreed to a 25 billion dollar settlement with five major U.S. banks over the lenders role in the country's foreclosure crisis. The deal is

expected to provide Massachusetts with more than 300 million dollars to help struggling homeowners through loan interest rate modifications and reductions in principal. The Boston Globe reports the settlement also is expected to offer a modest cash payments to some former homeowners whose properties for unlawfully seized the money is being promised by Bank of America Corp. JP Morgan Chase Wells Fargo Citi Bank and Ally Financial. Connecticut regulators say they won't approve Northeast Utilities proposed multibillion dollar purchase of Massachusetts electric company and star unless the company show the deal would be in the public interest. The State Public Utilities Regulatory Authority issued a one page decision Wednesday reaffirming the public interest standard it used in previous cases. Northeast Utilities and star announced the deal in October 2010. If approved it would create New England's largest utility company serving 3.5 million electric and gas customers in Connecticut Massachusetts and New Hampshire. Three men facing murder charges in the stabbing death of a former high school basketball star in Pittsfield are headed to trial in

April. The Berkshire Eagle reports that a judge ruled the defendants will go on trial together April 30th for the March 2010 slaying of Jodhaa Martin. Rhode Island lawmakers crafting the next state budget are crafting the next state budget by analyzing Governor Lincoln Chafee spending proposals. The House and Senate Finance Committees are set to review Chafee's proposed 7.9 billion dollar budget today. It would raise taxes on restaurant meals taxi fares and pet grooming to help struggling public schools and overcome a 117 million dollar deficit. Sunny skies this afternoon with highs in the mid 40s. Right now it's 44 degrees in Boston. Support for NPR comes from the pajama Graham company offering leopard hoodie foodies and women's pajamas delivered overnight and on Valentine's Day at pajama Gramp dot com. Good afternoon I'm Kelly Crossley. Today we're talking about the effect or about the things that gross us out and make us grimace and gag. Joining me to talk about the science behind the things that creep us out and the significance of this learned response is

Rachel Herz. Rachel Herz is a psychologist and neuroscientist. Her new book is That's Disgusting Unraveling the Mysteries of Repulsion. Rachel Herz thank you for joining us. It's wonderful to be here Kelly. So let's start at the beginning. Why did you decide to do a book about disguise. Well in all honesty it partially started as a joke and that's because my first book was called the scent of desire and it was all about the psychology of smell. And from doing that book I got more popular within scented circles and got calls from the outside to do various things and one of these calls was the question of whether or not I would want to be the judge at the National rotten sneakers contest that happens to be held every year in Montpelier Vermont and it's kids from around the country who've already won their regional stink off and they gather together to have the smelliest sneakers of them all. And the way the person presented it to me sounded like fun and so I agreed to do it. But there are a couple of months in between my acceptance and going to Vermont and people were saying to me when I tell them about this oh my god how could you do this how disgusting how gross.

And I said well it's for research for my next book it's going to be called the scent of disgust. But that's obviously not what happened but I had been sort of struggling with what my next book was going to be about and then I suddenly thought well maybe disgust isn't a bad idea and I've actually always been interested in discussed for a long time and it turns out that there are fundamental connections between the sense of smell and disgust. So there is a sort of a theoretical draw to it as well. Now you say that disgust is a part of a kind of staple of human emotions like happiness. Talk about that. Well according to the emotion theorists there are six basic human emotions and they are happiness sadness fear anger surprise and disgust. And what I think is very interesting about disgust is that it's not like the other emotions the other emotions are instinctive. Other animals have those other emotions as well. And we also express those emotions pretty much from birth. However with disgust First of all we have to learn it. Kids before the age of 3 really don't have

any discussed other animals don't experience emotional disgust and there are all kinds of complex levels of disgust and the more our brains go and grow in the more connected we get to the outside world the more we discover the different facets of disgust So it's it's really uniquely human and it's very psychological and very learned. So how do we learn it. Well we learn it from our culture. And this is why there are so many differences between cultures in terms of what's disgusting and what's not. And food is a classic place to look. I mean one culture considers something a delicacy the other thinks it's absolutely revolting and yet there's nothing inherently dangerous about consuming any of these things it's just the cultural designation of it being something acceptable or something not or even something fantastic. I mean for instance cheese is something that Westerners for the most part consider anything from a delicacy to a comfort food. Whereas in Asia it's literally the equivalent of cow excrement in terms of how it's viewed. But then they're eating hundred year old eggs and possibly monkey brains and fish that are fried

while they're still alive and all kinds of things that we cringe at. So you know it's very interesting to see how we learn and we also learn from our own personal experiences so we can be somewhat different from our peers and there is a certain degree to which our personalities steer us in various directions for being disgusted so we each have a personality predisposition for disgust. So you may find certain things more disgusting than I do or Whereas there's another category that I'm more grossed out than you are or one of us may have a greater sensitivity overall than the other. You actually have in your book that's disgusting The Unraveling the Mysteries of Repulsion. A test which I took I'll reveal my answer later. But to see how what is my level of disgust I can say that right here even before I reveal the number. Just thinking about reading the book was upsetting to me so that I'll give you a clue. So I my producer had to really carefully pick you know what I could read because there that's where I am so I'm really fascinated about the whole learn to be

a part of this. And another piece that you mention in your book which is that disgust is contagious and so I suppose that's part of the whole cultural piece of it so if you talk about that a little bit as well. Yeah well that's a really interesting aspect of discuss So not only do we learn it but we also feel this kind of magical compulsion about it. So for instance if we feel that something has been contaminated by the source or by an evil person even though we may be totally irrational we have a really hard time resisting the idea that there are sort of evil disgusting essence has somehow been transmitted to the things that they touched and that now we don't want to touch them. So for example people who are told that this cutlery that they're about to receive was owned by a cancer patient are more reluctant to take it. People who are told that people who are last in this way in poor mental patients don't want to jump in the swimming pool. And so even though these ideas these these illnesses that these other people have are not in any way

contagious but they conjure thoughts that we cringe at and therefore we feel this eerie feeling that we can somehow catch it get it become contaminated by even this was really interesting. Obesity is one of those things that is viewed with disgust by a lot of people and even someone there was a study done that someone it was a pretend job candidate situation and there was one person who depending on the condition either was wearing a fat suit or was dressed normally so it was always in fact the same person who is the confederate of the experiment. And then they had various people come in and sit beside the candidate the other person. And if the other person was normal weight if this other normal weight person was sitting beside somebody who is quote unquote looked obese even though it was made entirely clear the two had no connection to one another whatsoever. That second person was viewed as less capable for the job less. You know it's successful in general orientation lazier and things like this just because they were sitting next

to somebody else within a waiting room contacts when there was no relationship to them whatsoever so this is to me really mind boggling. You know that. This idea of contagion can transmit to people who are completely disconnected just by viewing them within the same scene I mean that to me is it's unbelievable what's also really interesting with respect to obesity is one of the reasons why obesity is quote unquote potentially disgusting is because we see it as a body distortion. So you know here's the normal human figure and someone who's obese is sort of violating that norm. But one of the other things that happens is the more familiar we get with something the less disgusted we are by it. And as this country is getting larger and larger you know being then it's the body dysmorphic no deviation soon and in fact I think people who are still legally thin are anorexic Leath and are viewed with just as much if not more revulsion. But the other interesting thing about the obesity thing is it's people who regard less of their own weight so overweight people obese people will also judge another obese person as disgusting in this kind

of visceral way. Although you know I'm not sure to the extent that they would be as condemning with the other negative stereotypes. Now what I think is interesting about that obesity example is and we talk about. Outside Of course I'm using quotes now air quotes the norm. So if a person is perceived to be larger than him. But but look how it could turn on in a positive way so if we have a 6 10 basketball player you know OK that's an unusual so it's no. But nobody is yelling about how weird that is. I mean you know in a negative way. Well I think that's a beautiful example because in fact I think that the natural response to seeing someone who looks really strangely abnormally tall is in fact to require oil from them but because they're cast in such a positive light here is this fabulous new athlete they're going to win all sorts of things for us. We are kind of being taught right on the spot to accept this person. But if we didn't have that and we just saw some giant walking down the street we would probably have much more of that repulsion rejection kind of reaction.

Let's go back to just a general but a youth connection to discuss because you you spent a lot of time talking about that our per our level of tolerance our response to it our recoil our gross level or whatever. Most often has to do with the physical and the body as opposed to something else. Why is that. Well the most basic form of disgust and it's sort of primary survival evolutionary purpose is to keep us away from killing ourselves either through ingesting poisons or from getting diseases and that's where the contamination thing also spreads from. So the idea that if I sat beside this pockmarked red SAR person and was touching them all day long and then you know a week later I found out that they were dead. And now I'm sitting here and I'm covered in past the sores and I'm going I wonder what that means. And the idea that we have now caught some of this contagion from this other person. And the physicality of all that is really sort of deeply embedded and so the primary levels of aversion are discussed. But it takes a

very big brain to figure out that that person who looked this way a week ago who is now dead and now I look this way and what my future looks like is going towards that's a complex connection. And you know it's totally different than you know there's a fire on top of you or a tiger running around the corner which is an instantaneous reaction so I think disgust evolved from the emotion of fear to warn us about dangers that are slower much more complicated and kind of creeping in nature like this disease mechanism. And so things that remind us of disease are things that look like they could be toxic to ingest are the first level of things that repulse us and they have very much to do with the body. Now since you said at the beginning that disgust is very much a human thing. How do animals then understand fear if disgust is not something that part of their their sort of quiver of emotions if you will. How do they understand fear. Well they understand fear perfectly fine when it comes to things like fires and they're predators but they don't have the reaction for instance to who or

however you happen you know whether you look like George Clooney or the Elephant Man or you know smells that we might require. They don't have any of those reactions they certainly don't have reactions to whether or not what you did or didn't do is morally correct. Right. So their reactions to all the animal things that we recall from they don't have it all they want commonality between other animals on ourself when it comes to disgust is the very very very basic reaction of rejecting the taste of something better because the taste that a newborn will make if you put quinine on her tongue is the exact same grimacing cringing face that you would make right now if I said you know please hold your neighbor's dirty genders. Right yeah. So there's this instinctive reaction to want to reject better because betters usually really signal poison and other animals also have that instinctive reaction. But apart from that everything else that's built on top of that response in humans is learned. And other animals don't have it.

So the question is if it's all learned why are some of us more susceptible than others and we'll talk about that. My guest is psychologist Rachel Herz. We're talking about the things that gross us out and the importance of this learned emotion. It's the subject of her new book That's Disgusting Unraveling the Mysteries of Repulsion. This is the Calla Crossley Show on eighty nine point seven WGBH Boston Public Radio. WGBH programs exist because of you and the Boston Symphony Orchestra with JA punch Baden leading Rachmaninoff Second Symphony and Emmanuel acts performing Beethoven Second Piano Concerto. This Thursday 8 8 8 2 6 6 12 hundred BSOD org and Welch and Forbes personally serving as investment advisors for New England families since 1838 Welch and Forbes knowing wealth. Knowing you on the web at Welch Forbes dot com. And SNH construction

offering residential renovations custom building historic restorations energy conservation site work solutions and remodeling to the greater Boston area for over 30 years SH construction dot com. The protests that led to the Egyptian revolution were organized in part by an anonymous Facebook page administrator. When the police found out who he was they arrested and interrogated him. Now while Ghonim is internationally famous and the next FRESH AIR we talk with him about his new memoir Revolution 2.0. Joining us. This afternoon to hear him eighty nine point seven. WGBH. You are cordially invited to attend an evening inspired by Downton Abbey a night of Edwardian fashion food and manners at the WGBH studios in Brighton on February 23rd at 6:30 p.m.. Sample the food of the British aristocracy here timeless works by English composers as performed by the doing the brass band and see authentic and modern

interpretations of dress from the era portrayed in the wildly popular masterpiece series. Tickets are just $35 with a discount for members on line at WGBH dot org slash box office. Welcome back to the Calla Crossley Show. If you're just tuning in my guest is Rachel Herz. She's a psychologist and neuroscientist and an expert on what it means to be grossed out creeped out and why certain things make our skin crawl and our stomachs turn. It's the subject of her new book That's Disgusting Unraveling the Mysteries of Repulsion. So Rachel one of the things that I'm fascinated by is people's level of tolerance since you've explained that this is learned behavior. You know how do some people learn to be less tolerant than others. Two of the things that you raise in your book discussed around food stuff and discussed around now horror films I'd like to talk about because I barely could read so I had to skip over pages because I just go.

And all my team knows it with horror films. If I see that it's coming on the TV I will mute the sound. I can't deal with it. So obviously my level is really something crazy and I took your test which is available on our Facebook page and it's rated 57 out of 100. Your book says that the average is about 40. So I guess I'm just really really squeamish. Well I mean although it is learned it's also what's described I like to say it's like the instinct that has to be learned so once we learn it we really do respond to this much more ingrained kind of instinctive sort of way and it's also a personality characteristic So just like some people are more conscientious or more extroverted. Some people are more disgust sensitive. So and this is a stable personality trait so I'm sure all your life you've been this way and you'll continue to be so. But one thing that's interesting with respect to disgust is that kids really most for the most part love kind of disgusting things and especially sort of teens early 20s Whereas when we get into our 40s everybody as well starts to

kind of wane when it comes to disgust which is why when you go to a horror movie and you're looking around who else is sitting there. Well maybe you won't see that. No I don't like I don't like them either but. Anyway it's mainly kids and you very rarely see anyone who's over 70. And this is because of the thrills and spills aspect of horror that all the shocks and actually more of the fear factor is more tolerable for young people and because there's more of a drive for that kind of excitement. The gore and the gross and the really gruesome. That's something that I think peer pressure can help with. It's also the case that boys and men in general are less sensitive disgust than women are so you know they may be dragging their girlfriends along and hoping also that the girlfriends like jump on to their labs and so on they can console them. So there's a lot of that going on when it comes to actually watching horror movies within a social context. But the desire to see that kind of gore and nastiness from a more general perspective and there is this weird perverse quality to discuss that we are actually strangely attracted like we want to kind of

look over the corner of our shoulder and see I mean to be honest. Can you say that you've never appeared at the wreckage after a car accident. I can I am not interested. You've never let me. OK. I'm not well no I am not interested. Well that's very good. Also unusual because most people I think even the more disgust sensitive among us want to sort of take a little peek even if from under the covers It's like watching a horror movie with your fingers over your eyes but they're spread so you can kind of look but you can turn away if you can fast enough. And the reason underlying this I think is because one of the Colonel's underlying disgust has to do I think with our fear of death and the fact that we know that we're mortal and we will eventually die and when we see things that are reminding us of that which basically portray that in various forms we're quite tantalized because the mystery somehow gets a little bit revealed and we get to sort of look. Could it be like this what could be like I were watching horror movies it's so crazy and over the top that we get some consolation. It really couldn't be that bad.

So if I can tolerate this you know I can accept it. So I wanted to give people just a little clip of one of these really extreme horror films that are out there now. This one is called saw and this is a clip from it. All right well how are you are you doing. The only way to go is the continental U.S. And Sarkozy. You will adjust the compensation. Package. Oh. OK. Do you. Know what you guys. Think. Oh yes. There Will Be Blood. OK that's probably the cleanest part of sockets I know that the there's a reason his name size because the guys running around signing up people I just cannot imagine sitting there

watching this and find in this interesting. Well I agree with you. But I mean I think that the personality predisposition changes and as I said when as we age and also the degree to which we want to be shocked is a personality feature to soap some people are set on low as our kind of baseline arousal level. And they need a lot of jolt thrills from the outside in order to feel alive and to feel you know somewhat compelled by things. Whereas people who are set on high on the inside are generally speaking trying to avoid any further agitation and so seeing something like a horror movie is definitely in that cabin so they are out completely. So I would guess that just as a basic personality you're probably sort of set on high when it comes to in general arousal when Silence Of The Lambs came out. I really want to see it because I heard it was well done. But I had to be told exactly where every bad part was I went with my friend who was exactly like me and I'm already sitting in the seat gripped on her hands before the movie is started and somebody tapped me to say they want to cross

over and I just flew up. The guy said I'm just trying to get across it OK. So that's where I'm at They're not making any money off of me. Now here's the other thing that I think is interesting because we see a lot of this now. You have a big take out in your book from Animal House talking about food and gross to surround food and how Animal House the movie with Jim Belushi really sort of set people maybe maybe captured what was happening culturally I think that's the better way to put it. So I want to just give people a sense of animal health because after something I've never seen either. This is from the classic food fight scene in Animal House and in this clip a young John Belushi now Jim is in the college cafeteria stuffing his face to the point that food is spilling out of his mouth. Oh OK. I think you know everybody here. Great. We really can't you know we just keep your hands and feet away from that man. Don't you have any respect for your show. It is

absolutely gross. Pep boys happy. I'm cheap paid. She didn't get it but I am. I mean they get it. So if you haven't seen the film John Belushi says he's a zipper mimics being a zit but chewing a hard boiled egg and spewing it over everybody that's just that's disgusting Rachel. It is Cali. But this also is interesting for a couple of reasons one because sort of sociologically it started what's called the gross out genre in film even though it came after polyester which really should have started it with the 1974 John Waters film where divine that the female impersonator says down to eat. I hate to say this to some dog poop on the sidewalk but that didn't get quite as much media attention as Animal House did. And basically again it's the same idea but a little bit more positive in the sense that what's disgusting can also be quite amusing because again what's going on with a

lot of these discussed situations is who are violating norms you know. You are not supposed to sit down at a table with a bunch of other people and bash your fists against your full cheeks and spew food all over everybody you know that's a real social no no. And if somebody does this it kind of you know Jazz's everybody up because we've broken norms and we're reacting and we we sort of have this suppression and repression of all our cultural rules and codes and we have to be polite and civilized and then when someone gets to break them we get this release too. And this taps into another feature of disgust that's very interesting and that is that part of it is this rejection of our animal nature the fact that we too are animals just like everyone else. Just like everything else and that that means we're going to die. And so again this aspect of death being sort of the underlying lurking fear within within discussed is there and it's brought up when people suddenly behave like animals as opposed to the civilized humans we are supposed to be and this human idea likes makes us somehow think of ourselves as slightly immortal whereas animals get run over and they get crushed and

so on. And if you bash your face full of food and spew it on anyone. You're just like a pig or anything else that doesn't care. Well the other part of the book that I think is interesting because we've now talked about all the body associated stuff is you're paying close attention to moral disgust. And I'm fascinated by the fact that just saying disgusting has a physical impact on us which then sort of brings an intersection with the moral morality as we think about things that disgust us on that plane. Can you talk about that. Yeah. So it's this area of moral disgust has become very hot in terms of research there's a lot of work that's been done on it as also quite contentious or controversial whether or not that version of discussed is the same as our reaction to Bluto bashing his face with you know food flying and everywhere or stepping on poop or something more visceral. My position is that in fact a lot of the times when people say that they're disgusted by the politician who takes bribes or somebody else's you know irresponsible

behavior that in fact they're angry or they're outraged. Depending upon the level but that we use discussed in a metaphorical sense to convey our emotions more emphatically. Now where this could potentially cross over is if the file ation the moral violation has a visceral component to it. So for example you someone steals money from you or someone steals money from you at knife point threatening to stab you there. That sort of physical violation part comes in and there we might feel some cringing feeling because we're imagining blood and so forth. Or even at another level and sexuality is another big level of disgust especially because it really reminds of our animal nature. You know something like you know necrophilia or incest or all kinds of things along those lines or on the other side cannibalism you know where we're really violating the body. You know there I think real disgust out of this or a level is activated. But what you brought up before is very interesting thing that for the most part our baseline reaction of disgust is towards physical things it is the body cringe reaction.

And if I say that's disgusting about the congressman who takes bribes for instance. I may just by using the word discussed elicit a conditioned reaction within myself. That is the physical cringe even though if I had heard the exact same thing about the congressman I said oh how terrible or that's outrageous. I wouldn't have gotten that same physical cringe reaction because the word wasn't used so literally because of the use of the word and the connection of the word to this physical state. The word itself can elicit the physical state from within us and then afterwards because we actually felt physically grossed out by hearing about the congressman. We then in fact view his behavior as physically disgusting. So we can turn it on itself that way. I was interested in a piece that you wrote about Joe Paterno the just deceased coach at the University of Pennsylvania and has been statements I'm not a sports person. Which elicited a lot of moral disgust toward his sort of if people believe what

has been said over looking child rape on his watch. And yet as you point out there are people who not made excuses for him but explain the behavior in a different way. And that's sometimes part and parcel of trying to figure out where we are on a moral disgusting level. Talk about that if you will absolutely So this was a piece I wrote that really explained where I was trying to get at the idea of the relativity of morality and so depending upon your relationship to the person in question or the behavior in question you may view the behavior as in fact acceptable. You may make excuses for it or find it totally abhorrent and something that should be completely rejected. So the idea is that there is or it's really a moving target there is no such thing in a way as the most pure morally immoral act. I mean we say that murder for instance is wrong. And immoral. But that again is I think something that's taught and also somewhat contextualized I mean for example what about public

executions where you know so supposedly the villain is now being executed for his or her crimes. Well you know it wasn't that long ago in our history where we all gather together for the Sunday public hanging because it was like the big social spectacle of the week. And we went along with this is this but we're OK and now we think of that sort of behavior as being disgusting. And so it's this idea that our position relative to the concept and what the concept is about is very important in this whole development. And I even think that the prescriptions against murder are killing other people arose because you know back in the day way back in the day or even in cultures now where food is severely scarce and especially access to protein that you know if that person over there happens to be handy and depending upon how desperate you are you may set upon that other person to eat them. And in fact this idea you know the sort of cannibalistic idea that's been demonstrated to potentially maybe even still exist today in some very remote societies. But even if

it doesn't completely exist today it wasn't that long ago where it was still practiced in some areas and certainly in our past. And I think that basically to stop people from looking over their shoulder at their neighbor to see how juicy they might be. You know the laws against murder were initially enacted and put into religious codes to prevent us from being too tempted. What was the most surprising thing and I just want to remind people who if they're just tuning in that you are a psychologist a neuroscientist So you just didn't just wake up one day and decide to come up with these theories based on studies and observations some You've led and some others have lived. What was the most surprising thing that came out of this work. Well that's a really hard question to answer and I sort of don't have a good answer for it because so much of it was just I mean one of the things that I think I was able to do with this book is even though I had been studying psychology and doing it from a very large perspective for a long time my background for prior to this was really something else in the sense of smell. And so I came to discuss somewhat a little bit as a newbie in terms of all the

research that had been done especially recently. And so I think that I came to it with the same kind of surprise about a lot of things that I'm hoping that my readers also come to it with surprised by. And and so a lot of it really surprised me I mean even the simplest things of what sorts of foods are considered acceptable like there's a food called Carl which is Rod it really literally decomposed rotted flesh of a shark that you don't eat fresh because actually if you eat it fresh you can get poison from the year a cow said that's in its flesh so in fact this invention so to speak of letting it decompose for months I might add is because that's how the euro gas it seeps out of its flesh and again because starvation was a primary motivator to try to figure out how can we eat what's around us. This discovery of willfully let it rot for a couple of months then it's safe to eat. So things like that are I think really. Fascinated to fascinating to me. There were

many many things that I became very interested by at even one of the first things that first got me into this area was the when I heard about this was a number of years ago that people with Huntington's disease do not recognize the emotion of disgust. And I thought this was such a strange thing how is it that a group of people with a hereditary terrible neurological disease which in fact causes breakdown in motor movement have this inability to recognize one specific emotion. And this there was such a seeming disconnect at the surface. I mean those two things I thought well what is this about how is this connected and that was one of the first things that ever got me really thinking about disgust and that was you know maybe 15 years ago the other thing that you mention is that it is possible and you talked about your own experiences of reducing your fear or your aversion to disgust about certain things by really desensitizing yourself to it the more you see it. Not a bad way I'm not saying you see somebody kill somebody five times and go oh murder

what. What the heck. That's not what I mean. But the sort of the things that might seem if we just thought about them to be something disgusting you can. Adapt your response to yes so the idea of it being so psychological and so cognitive That is the way we think about something the meaning we interpret something with determines our level of disgust. We can take control of it and we can flip it around and one of the things that we can do and this is hard for most people because if they have a phobia that's sort of a disgust based phobia they really don't want to expose themselves to this but say for instance you have a phobia of or a disgust based reaction to worms and I would be that person. Mice for me so I know logically worms cannot hurt me. They're not going to do anything to me doesn't matter. I am totally grossed out by seeing worms Well what I really should do is go into the garden and sit there with my spade and dig up the dirt for as many hours as I can tolerate it and let those wriggly things crawl on by until I can sit there and say OK and I do this again and again and again until

I don't mind doing the gardening so or seeing them after the rain or whatever. Whatever the case might be but a lot of people really don't want to. But the point is that you can and this relates to the idea that the more familiar we are with something the more we get over it so for instance people who are hospital workers are have to work in emergency wards and things like this. You know they see all kinds of horrible blood and guts stuff they also have to deal with all kinds of bodily fluids all the time. And initially maybe when they first started their jobs they were quite horrified by what they had to experience but then they get inured to it and it's actually been shown in studies that at the beginning of let's say the cadaver dissection class medical students are a lot more discussed about what they're going to have to do and deal with than they are at the end of it. So by exposing ourselves we can both desensitize and also detach. And the worry is we don't want to detach too much because we don't want to lose our human connection. So you know that I is important to try to just not be jumping around scared of everything. Yeah. You know what you'd like to do and I would like to do more gardening and it rather than

running into the stoop every time I see something I have to force myself back and only dig so deep so that I don't get to the earthworm level. All right so how do you judge the sneaky stinky sneaker going into this. Well I have to put my nose inside the sneaker and take a sniff. And there's a bunch of sneakers. Luckily I get to hold it with the tongs so I can hold it somewhat away from me but I still have to get my nose in enough to be able to smell it which isn't so hard because the whole entire auditorium where this is held is filled with odor but I want to get that specific sneaker and not the whole melon so I do have to put my nose inside it and sniff. Well in that case everything sneaky. I mean stinky How do you pick the worst. Well it's kind of it's a kind of a gut reaction. OK so you just know what it is. And I do it there's someone else there are two of us that are the nasal judges and so we get we sort of have our votes average because sometimes he'll think something is worse then I will or vice versa. So but you know we just like with our own personal discuss we each have our

own feeling of that is just the worst. And that's how it gets decided. All right well you would know because you're the expert on what is disgusting. It's been a pleasure to talk to you. We've been talking about what it means to be grossed out why this is an important and learned response. And I've been talking with Rachel Herz. She's a psychologist and neuroscientist. Her new book is That's Disgusting Unraveling the Mysteries of Repulsion. We'll continue the gross out conversation talking about slimy oozy green gooey extraterrestrial things with film contributor Guerin daily. He'll give us a preview of the Boston scythes I film this. This is eighty nine point seven. WGBH. This program is made possible thanks to you and the Harvard innovation lab a university wide center for innovation where entrepreneurs from Harvard the Austin Community Boston and beyond engage in teaching and learning about entrepreneurship. Information at. I laughed at Harvard

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installments that automatically renews instead of hearing another fundraiser you're hearing more stories like this. You and your sister could tell us apart and we could tell you two apart but by the end of this someone who had a double wedding joined thousands of WGBH sustainers with a gift of $5 a month and eighty nine point seven will say thanks with the all new CD from NPR's Story Corps all the love stories here a sample of WGBH daughter ork. Great question has a great question and that's a great question. It's a great question. Rick great question and feel hear unexpected questions and unexpected answers this afternoon at 9.7. Welcome back to the Calla Crossley Show. Joining me in the studio is our contributor film critic Guerin daily. He joins us for a rundown of Boston's annual size five films fest which runs through February 10th through the 30th at the Somerville Theatre. Aaron welcome back. Hi how you doing. OK so you've been working on this force some

time I mean just this year but over years. Tell us about it. Well it started off back at the old late unlamented Orson Welles cinemas back in 1976 as just a simple 24 hour film festival celebrating nothing but science fiction classic Wunsch lockers you name it they would show it. And over the years it's evolved into a full fledged film festival which ends with a 24 hour marathon a film where you just bring in everything and stick around for. With 600 your friends and have the largest sleep over you could possibly imagine. So what's your criteria for what is seems to be the definitions a little bit elastic. It is a lesser but you know when I go back to the classics I go back to Rod Serling and Twilight Zone and I figure well I grew up on that that's one of the things I love more than anything else was watching TV back then. And I figured if it played on twilight zone it can play in my festival. OK so give me an example of a film that you think is quintessential Saif. Well the quintessential ones are from the 50s. OK. Are you talking about DAY

THE EARTH STOOD STILL For been planet. Them which I absolutely love. You know if you know about them know them what is in them is actually a very very good film. It's about a fear of atomic energy and how it turns ants into huge ants and they attack Los Angeles. Oh and then Los Angeles is destroyed and Los Angeles right never comes back till the next month. OK so is it all monsters or is it OK I mean I thought let's we have this thing about science fiction in our society where it's like something for kids but it isn't. It really isn't. They're Yes there are elements that are that are part that kids really enjoy and grab a hold of. Or maybe it's young boys or young men. But science fiction runs a whole gamut of emotions. It could be anything from robots which talks about basically slavery or loss of

self or your emotional self. You take something like drawing a blank here but the great 1056 film by Don Siegel about how pods are taking over. People and they're losing their sense of self so there's a loss of sadism bodies now and thank you. OK I was embarrassing myself I just had to call my god people going to yell at me I'm going to forget that. But you know science fiction has a tendency to deal with the issues of our society at a particular point. Much like horror films you know science fiction films do the same thing. You take a look at the films of the 50s it's all about atomic energy or fear of loss of self or alien invasion all those things were things that we were feared. If you take science fiction later on you take a look at some of the adaptations of Philip K. Dick's novels and turned into film where you're looking at people who don't know what their memories are their memories are playing tricks on them. They didn't they don't know what is real and what is not real. Again that loss of self

defining what one's self truly is. So science fiction. Is hitting our culture right now in a way that no other film genre has and many many many years. And it's because it's open. You can do something you can. You can approach a topic without really you know Andre snowbound but also not threatening anybody because it's so so divorced much like what I believe the original Star Trek TV series did and that it was able to talk about things such as racism and sexism without really talking about it but still talking about it. Well let's let's play a little bit of what you have on tap here. How about we're of the satellites. This is a classic psi fi film. It's old school as we say so this is a clip from War of the satellites. The nine only plan to become the warning of a part of the United Nations cannot be ignored.

We obviously have been ripped off wrong. We cannot be an invasion of Earth by a race so Superman from outer space. Possessing the weird power of duplicating themselves indefinitely. Creatures taking on human form yet impervious to any destructive force known to man. OK well that's definitely old school that is old school but let's let's let's talk about this film for just a second first 1058. It's one of Roger Corman's first films and Carmen was noted for not these knockoff cheapies. This came out eight weeks after Sputnik had gone up it was the first film to really discuss the fear of having something floating up and over us. And interestingly enough what I find interesting is that the star of the film was a Boston native The female star was a woman by the name of Susan Cabot who took the name Cabot obviously because back in those days it was the cabins in the lodges and an interesting story is she ended up being engaged to King Hussein of Jordan. But when she felt when he found out that she was Jewish

dropped her and then tragically she ended up dying when her disturbed son and you know bludgeoned her to death in her bed. OK well that's not part of the story. What else do you have a damper in this festive Well you know if the fence was broken up into three sections the first section is the festival itself where we have gotten submissions from all over the world for feature films and we've got I think it's seven eight eight world Premier's four or five. No North American or US Premier's and the rest are all New England Premier's and some of them are absolutely I'm just blown away by the quality of the films there's one that I'm extremely high on. It's called dimensions a line a loop and threat of terror. Which is beautifully constructed and reminded me a lot of an Merchant Ivory production because the people behind it have an incredible taste takes place in England and it's about a young boy a young girl and another young boy who have a tragedy and it's all about trying to get to relive that tragedy

and change history and change time. So you got features you got shorts and I'll kinds of stuff in the marathon that you'll be playing. I was fascinated with Attack The Block which takes place in inner city I love that I don't the sound of the South London let's take a listen to that. Well he's done. Impromptu Levy when an antigen the wrong place till you get. Right. Down to the species he puts you on the sauce he keeps expanding. You know. More than taste. Lovely on the mommy in the beige. Book. But you made some council estate self-funded. On the phone. I love it because you know you tend to think of those of us who are not really into this genre like American focus right out of the country. Again that's that's one of the nice things about the festival. I mean an attack a block It was one of my favorite

films of 2011. And what I loved about it was it was a low production film that was made on a shoestring with young actors and it reminded me of Casa Blanca where when Major Strasser is talking to Rick Blaine and and Rick's Cafe about you know well what if we ever marched into your beloved New York and Rick says well there are some sections of New York I don't think you want to go into and that's what this movie is there's some sections where the airlines really shouldn't go in. Now some of it if you have comedy too and I note that there is a film that has to play every festival no matter what. Well yeah well that's the there. I have some people who've been coming to this festival for 30 35 years 36 years 37 years. You know they bring in their kids now and they have this and it's a community and they create their own little thoughts about it and one of them is we have to start off the entire festival their entire thought on with. Duck Dodgers in the 24th and a half century.

OK so this is a Warner Brothers. And let's take a listen to it. I have sent for you not just because we are facing a crisis. The world's supply of aluminum Fostex the baby but the man is no mommy. Lilo. Now we have reason to believe that the only remaining source is on Planet X somewhere in this area and you want me to find planets. It's that if you do it. Got yours. Oh into political beliefs or because there is no one knows his way around outer space. Like. Yours. And not let me. Have. Any. And that's him Saif I could get behind. Just a joyous cartoon from Warner Brothers and their classics you know Porky pigs in it Marvin the Martian You know Marvin is going to blow up the earth because it blocks the view of being it's very good. So you've got these three categories as we've mentioned and that there is a contest and people when the original bust of Gort not the original bus OK

the one that we had commissioned. Oh I think I'm sure. Yes I see Goritz yes is not lovely and your it is Guard is the robot from the original Day The Earth Stood Still. OK well that's quite If you're so I fi buff that's good. Listen is there is there more interest in psi fight now than there has been. Well look I have to do is take a look at the top 25 films of the best grossing films of all time. If you take a look at 19 of the top 25 films are either science fiction or fantasy we have like I was saying like you goes out now that's would be considered scifi I would say that's a bit of a fantasy. But George Melly has his films but you know the Star Wars films you know Harry Potter films that's fantasy. Yeah we like our fantasy we like our science fiction. OK so who wins Gort by the way how do we have judges and they they don't choose who is going to be it. Of course I have a little bit extra say because you know it's my little baby. But you know we're giving away of Best Feature best short and best steampunk Steampunk is one of the new themes that

we have this year. Yeah that's new in literature as well. You know I'm more familiar with science as literature but not as as film you know Octavia Butler was very important. Author for me because she took some of the things that you talked about and then translate them into a futuristic thing that had to do with folks of color in the future which is really quite interesting. There is some argument that Star Wars and Harry Potter not where the way in there of course or start there's I mean I would say Harry Potter sigh fibro say it's fantasy and that's borderline definitely Star Wars is it takes place in space or you know I just got you've got robots you've got Wizards you've got the force you've got the evil you've got Darth Vader Yeah I think yeah absolutely. What about one of these other. We have some clips here that I'm interested in if you want to talk about for example pig is that of interest that you take is an interesting film because again what is what I like about a lot of these films is how the filmmakers are dealing with limited budgets and using limited budget and good acting and good script writing to create one pig is a momento

kind of story. A guy wakes up in the desert with a hood on his head and has no memory. He's taken in by a young woman and a young boy. And that's when the mystery starts he's trying to find out who he is. OK listen listen to the clip if you. Can because. I don't remember. It you know because there. Are a very lucky man. This feels like a reverse of the. Movie. Remember what he needed. What do you think happened to me. I really don't have enough information. You know after she was doing me good for like three months you have a wife or. Kids. I don't know I was going to. Do it I don't know. That is kind of a mental like it is going to like you know done it's very very well done. One the London side five film fest will best feature one shriek fest best festival and a couple other ones it's one of the better films that we've seen come a lot around in a while. So we're listening to you listen to this conversation you think well it's great but I'm not really into psi

fi What do you say to somebody who may think they're not it's I think I think that they should pick and choose a film that they would they think that might really you know pique their interest. But I would say that if if you really want to experience something you really should come down to the marathon which is on February 19th or the 20th it's a 24 hour a vent and even if you don't stay for the whole thing it's such a community of people that I don't think I can kind of equate it with his Brigadoon once a year a little village comes out of nowhere 600 people watching films enjoying films they don't necessarily know each other they come from all disparate parts of the world and then when it's over they vanish into the fog again to show up another and another year it's really a wonderful sense of community. Are you there the whole 24 hours. Of course no one there but I can say I think why don't longer young spring chicken back in the old days it was that it was a badge of honor now I know better. But I'm there all of the almost the entire time yeah.

OK so a film for a person who's just getting started with Psi Phi. That's going to be at the festival. I see dimensions dimensions extremely high and I'm just one of those films that you really go to a film festival for. It's way ahead of the curve in terms of being out there in the general public and it's extremely well done by two young filmmakers who've done a very very good job. It's from the it's from the U.K. very well done and again think of a masterpiece theater kind of setting. I'm done with science fiction. I mean it's just beautifully done beautiful costumes and the TIR of actors and again like this film and folklore are both of these these films the are second tier actors in Hollywood that are very very good to have broken through yet. All right. Well there we have it. GUERIN daily on Boston's annual syphon film fest that's what our conversation is thank you so much Karen for telling us about it. My pleasure. It's at the Somerville Theatre February 10th through the 20th. Don't miss that marathon to learn more visit our website or go to Boston site fied dot com. You can keep on top of the Kelly Crossley

Show at WGBH dot org slash Calla Crossley follow us on Twitter or become a fan of the Calla Crossley Show on Facebook. Today's show was engineered by Antonio only are produced by Telsey murders. Will Rose live on abbey Ruzicka we're are a production of WGBH Boston. Public radio.