Education and Race Relations; 23; Post-School Opportunities For Minority Groups

Oh. No. This session is concerned with post school opportunities for members of minority groups. Children face this problem in varying degrees depending on the number of years they stay in school. A school dropout has little or no opportunity regardless of color.

The youngster who drops out of high school today. Commits economic and social suicide. Even the high school graduate today faces limited opportunities in the world of work. And the problems mount if he is colored. Mrs. M. Barnett who is our special lecturer for this session has served as curriculum supervisor in the New York City schools. Currently she is a staff consultant. At the Public Education Association on the preparation of educational programs for the company heads of high school. She will discuss some of the problems related to the post school job adjustments of those youngsters who are members of minority groups. Mrs Barnett. Opportunity not just eternal grinding poverty and discrimination. May be clearly in view for the Negro but they

rose have not seen it. Riots in New York City in the summer of 1964 and I don't know what section of Los Angeles in 1065 to choose the most dramatic illustrations attest to mounting frustration not increasing participation in the Great Society. The frenetic proliferation of programs and agencies is responsive to the crisis and gendered by the gap between the newly aroused expectations and the grim reality of the present. But in the long run only the schools can recruit the lower class children of our racial minorities into the middle class negroes and sent both men and women disproportionately employed in unskilled jobs. The 1960 census of both population and housing reveal that 38 percent of the males in Central Hall are in the Operative in labor category as compared with 26 percent for all males in New York City. At the other end of the

spectrum only 7 percent of the ghetto's males are in a professional technical managerial role as compared with 24 percent of all New York City males. For women the discrepancy is wider in this category as well. 18 percent of all women are in this top role as compared with 46 percent of all New York City women. Countrywide. Ninety five percent of the Negro men and 86 percent of the Negro Women are in blue collar occupations. Ninety percent of these million unskilled jobs. 1 6 The negroes are in white collar jobs as compared with one half of the white workforce. Another way to see the picture is to note that only 10 negroes are in white collar jobs as compared with a thousand Whites jobs. Confined in such large numbers to jobs requiring the least skill a disproportionate number of negroes and Puerto

Ricans are on the poverty level. While 15 percent of all New York City families earn $3000 a year or less below the poverty line. Twenty seven percent of the Negro families and 34 percent of the Puerto Rican families live in poverty. Traditionally the last hired members of minority groups the first fired as technological advances reduce the demand for unskilled labor. A reduction in the proportionate number of negroes who are unemployed. From nine point nine percent in 1964 to 8.5 percent in September one thousand sixty five as compared with a reduction from 4.7 percent to four point two percent for whites is no cause for new optimism. Estimates as to the cost to our gross national product of this disuse misuse of a large proportion of 10 percent of our manpower go as

high as 30 billion dollars a year. Our second class citizens are measuring their gains by the possibilities open to all. Not by comparison with a benighted past. A fresh breeze is blowing some doors open. Others have a will detail the pattern of Negro migration to the large metropolitan centers. The disintegration of the Negro family the pathology of problems of the urban negro ghettos but an expanding economy since World War 2. The Cold War rivalry with the Soviet Union the rising expectations of peoples in the new nations of Asia and Africa have stirred new efforts to achieve equality and a sympathetic response from the power structure. The congressional record in the 1964 65 session on civil rights and poverty attests to an awareness of the negro as a new political reality. The president's message in June of 1965 was clear and unequivocal on

the Great Society would mean to members of minority groups. It is not enough he said to open the gates of opportunity. All of our citizens must have the ability to walk through those gates. The qualified negro now knows discrimination in reverse. Business representatives stormed the campuses of Negro colleges to interview graduates for careers students and faculty are protesting a mildly that the number of these experiences is interfering with their work. One private employment agency specializing in the placement of Negroes and white collar jobs has organized career conferences attendance at which exacts an elaborate fee from the business firms interested in meeting Negro college graduates in large numbers. The demand is so great and the supplies so small. That systematic pirating of top personnel has raise salaries to figure out of line with the services performed college admissions officers from leading

colleges Scout Southerns segregated secondary schools for possible talent. Even though preparation is far below standard. Project a pix at New York University gives special assistance to Puerto Rican students admitted with below standard qualification. Those who do their college course in five years instead of four. Yeah Columbia and Princeton just to mention a few. Have offered remedial and or enrichment work for underprivileged youth especially for minority groups. The negro scholarship fund reported can help five times as many as qualified. Even though scholarships are widely available to college and professional schools it is significant that the number of doctors trained remains relatively static. Progress has been made on a broader front. The change in recent years is evident for workers in both defense jobs and in general business.

Comparing the figures for one thousand sixty two thousand nine hundred sixty four in defense industries the proportionate increase in the number of negroes hired was twice that for all workers whereas the percentage of white collar workers increased 7.5 percent. In the case of the negro the proportionate increase in such jobs was over four times greater of thirty point seven percent. A report from a hundred business firms voluntary members in the plans for progress program. Accounting for about four million workers indicates that the proportionate increases are equally significant. The percentage increase for all workers was 3 percent compared with the fourteen point five percent increase of non white workers while the proportionate increase in the hiring of non whites for blue collar work was barely three times that for all workers. The sixteen point two percent increase in the hiring of non-whites for white collar jobs is 18 times the increased

percentage for workers monitoring discrimination in defense industries has become increasingly effective as government purpose has been spelled out in Supreme Court decisions presidential executive orders and now congressional action in the general area of civil rights and poverty. But a combination of forces and a variety of imaginative approaches in the anti-poverty program are responsible for the progress shown by these 100 employers. Special training programs prepare candidates for qualifying tests and the tests themselves are more realistically related to the jobs requirements. These businessmen may not approve of discrimination in reverse but some practice it conspicuously. Prejudice among workers has been rendered you know operative with tact and dispatch by the term in management. The negro unable and unwilling to walk through the open gate is a new

experience in our history of social mobility public and private organizations talk and those of long standing are in search of techniques to deal with this phenomenon. Civil rights groups social service organizations government recognizing that yesterday was too late. Are busy salvaging human resources. The unemployable. The school dropout. The underemployed. A rousing expectation and retraining and guiding adults to new roles in the economy. In the home and in the community. It is hoped will reshape the present to make the work of prevention easier since traditional societal institutions have seemed helpless and inoperative for racial minorities in large cities. New programs bypass the family and the school. As well as the economy and the polity. The Civil Rights Act to bar discrimination in employment deals with the handicap of

caste poverty program attacks classed rigidities and a variety of new approaches. Job to domestic Peace Corps and community action programs meeting and community conventions. The poor of New York elect representatives to community councils although they do not constitute a majority of these councils. They will have a voice in the development of programs that will serve the poor they know. Incorporate and originally supported by the city of New York is now part of the federal government's anti-poverty program. It's lack of faith is painfully evident. Preschool academies remedial work for potential dropouts training in skills for school youth as well as adults now underemployed or unemployed. Placement programs youth organizations a new thought related business enterprises to give them a stake in their community carry the child from infancy until he can assume his

role as a responsible adult. Increasingly the ethnic lock on jobs is breaking. Unions and businesses are opening apprenticeship programs to new minority groups. Membership roles are less closed. The Urban League skills bank bank's idea is a placement program which seeks to find to match skills its New York branch in cooperation with the university has helped Negro college graduates past New York City Teaching examinations for all these gains. Professor Pettigrew has estimated that if the record for the decade of the 50s prevails the Negro has a long way to go to achieve complete economic equality. Negroes will not achieve proportional representation among clerical workers until two. Among skilled workers until twenty five. Among professionals until 2017. Among business managers

and proprietors until 27. 30. To speed up the process is in technology because as technology becomes increasingly sophisticated more not less education is indicated as long ago as 1947 50 percent of the adults in the United States thought a college education essential and 41 percent insisted that a college degree was significant although only 5 percent had a degree themselves. Education is not just one but the main problem to equality of opportunity. To the drop out school carries no such message. As late as 1963 only 63 percent of those enrolled in grade 10 for more high schools in New York City graduated. Forty one point five percent from vocational high schools. Chicago had the best record 66 percent graduated from schools in sixty five point four percent from vocational

schools. Only Detroit's vocational schools did better with the graduating rate of sixty seven point two percent of those enrolled in grade 10. The Philadelphia Record is especially depressing. Only fifty three point four percent graduated from high schools and 44 percent vocational schools. Los Angeles is without a high school as a whole has a better holding power than others in these cities. Negro children and the children of other racial minorities contribute a disproportionate share of the total. In New York City the median is completed by the adult population was ten point one years. For the Puerto Rican. The median was only seven point six and that for the negro nine point five negro Puerto Rican children remain to this city. The rigid and then unrealistic curricular offerings may have had meaning

for another generation of children in a less technological age. But to children without words or a sense of individual worth as in the case of the negro child and cassette by the problems of physical and emotional survival in the ghetto. True for most children the middle class standards of deportment order and co-operation with others are bewildering and defeating their inadequate response to the teachers requirements breeds low expectations of their potential and becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. In a community in which only one half of the children live in a family with both parents. Where fathers are traditionally underemployed or unemployed if present at all where most adults who are employed are unskilled the child finds no model in his life to tell him that success is worth striving for failure in school. Outside he can look forward to a little money and less status in the unskilled jobs he

may acquire with luck. Isolated in the ghetto from the white community he never learns its attitudes values manners and methods of operation. Blocked in both class and cast his alienation can only lead to blinding frustration. The bit of social dynamite of which James Conant writes and slums and suburbs Professor Jean Grimes reminds us in her book schools scholars and society that we insist on the latest model call. But with appropriate vehemence of vintage school school to another era did serve as the instrument for upward mobility for the children of the European immigrant. In our cities its role in breaking down the caste barriers imposed by color is long overdue. Let's look at some of the specific problems inside the school. Curricular rigidities fixed for each grade. Maak says the system of rewards the teachers middle class standards attitudes that use behavior

patterns are removed in time and space from these children. Unable to fit into the teacher's prefix she tells them that her expectations of them are minimal if only they would be neat and behave. As the gap between the teacher widens with each year in school the child dismisses the school as a meaningless experience to bridge the gap. We need not discard the use of the usual tools of the school. They need only be remolded into a new model. First the curriculum. The new emphasis on science and math has moved the classical language used in the humanities to a secondary role in college admission requirements. It may well be that the further rationalisation of our technology may soon make this choice obsolete. The tests as to what we need to learn are well defined by Professor Berman. 1. Is it worth an adult's knowing. To having known it as a

child doesn't make a person a better adult. There is no sanctity attached is subject areas required of children at the grade levels into which knowledge is now pigeonholed. If in place of a pre-determined mass of facts always out of date and dealing with situations unrelated to life the child instead confronts the basic concepts by a process of inquiry that leads him to discover answers which he recognizes he needs in this complex world. Learning might seem worthwhile subjects can be divided into manageable packages developmentally arranged to meet the interests and needs of specific children to be taught and mastery of each can be required before moving on to the next. The question I ask of the child would be how long he was taking know whether he could do it whether he does learn depends in part at least on what we ask him to know. Learning

experiences should be drawn from the world he knows. A study of union discrimination against Negroes Puerto Rican Mexicans may mean more than the list of advantages and disadvantages of labor unions laboriously copied from the text. Students who conduct a poll based on a questionnaire they have prepared to study the willingness of labor union members to admit racial minorities on equal terms will learn even more about the role of unions today and their responsibility for the future. Participation in a campaign is better than reading about its mechanics in a text school extracurricular activities in the laboratory as a laboratory for later participation in a real world outside of school. The curriculum must start with a marked minority child where he is not where we were at his age. The rigidities set five grades tracks homogeneous grouping and special schools

reinforce the negative self concept. Increasingly the system tells this child it expects less or less of him even as it imposes often insuperable expectations for those who seem to thrive on this on real competition. After all is individual success should be measured in terms of what is and is learning. Not by comparison with what others know and want to learn. Success breeds more success. A study done by the Public Education Association in New York City recommends a comprehensive high school with heterogeneous classes open to students as they qualify regardless of track. Inability to cope with college prep math would not preclude college prep English foreign languages or an Advanced Placement course in American history. Interesting ability in electronics need not wait until the 10th grade or until he is past French. Conversely. A study of electronics need

not be reserved for those who want to work for the telephone company. The heterogeneous class in this sense do not place a premium on finishing high school in four years or graduating with an academic diploma based on the completion of a prefixed set of course requirements. Emphasis is on mastery not Mox on probing in-depth not on superficial coverage. This transfers the responsibility for success or failure from the school to the child skill. Taken in different adult advanced atomic physics may be interesting but not meaningful to the accountant ability to fix the vacuum cleaner does not improve the dressmaker's fashion sense. The student in this kind of school is his own area of competence. The offerings are there. He has to work the school's curriculum and

organization must begin with the faith that we let each child pursue his strength will he be encouraged to explore his potential to the max. The child and his teacher learned to measure human worth by what one can add to the enrichment of the lives of others and oneself not by what one doesn't know. School cannot replace the family but they can develop a set of experiences not now available at home. Others have shown the importance of providing male teachers to be the father guide with whom the boy identifies. Others have found the differentiation within the caste tends to reduce restrictions imposed by caste knowing negroes who did achieve status. They encourage the child to expend the effort to move out of his bind of poverty unskilled jobs low wages unemployment dependency and more poverty. Text books written for another are rewriting and more realistic

illustrations for most of the minority children. There is no one who can check the math homework guide the child in the throes of composition. Here the spelling words for tomorrow's test will suggest some other category in the encyclopedia under which to look for the answers. Opportunities for the older child in school to help younger children. Make receiving help less demeaning as big brother or big sister within the school under teacher's supervision. The older student may give to others what he missed listening. A helping hand and approving pat on the back at the right moment even reproval as club leaders tutors volunteers in hospitals or other social agencies. Students accept suggestions myn approval from respected individuals with whom they may identify. They develop a sense of their own worth as they help others solve their problems to the child for whom the job means an unknown world endless drudgery and

a hostile remote but already figured the boss preparation seems pointless self-defeating. The school was the guy who introduced the child to work as an opportunity for personal satisfaction and financial reward. In every classroom from the very beginning of the school experience children learned to fix the standards of performance to evaluate the results and thereby judge the worth of their own contributions. Watching others at work in factories or construction sites makes the boss a less formidable reasonable guy and reinforces. They're understanding as to what will be expected of them on the job. Cooperative programs part time school and part time work such as the one in New York City all summer and after school jobs expose the student to fellows fellow workers labor unions a hierarchy of Supervisors a new set of human relationships with a student with a school

guidance counsellor to ease the way the dropout rate for children suggests that those who leave and others see little or no relationship between the work in school and the skills they will need. The higher dropout rate in school is geared to developing specific work skills especially discouraging. Only a few graduates from vocational schools find jobs in the trades they have studied. Entry into jobs in which the schools offer training is by way of the job and way of the job training. Membership in a labor union and the employer and practitioner program not the school shop situation with its obsolete equipment. Even. The students acquire a high degree of skill in school they find the traditional pattern of entry hard to break. The New York City Board of Higher Education is adding to the technical programs in the two year community colleges a skills center for high

school graduates and dropouts where training periods for specific jobs will vary from a few months to two years. A number of such skill centers scattered throughout the metropolitan area might offer facilities for training high school students and the morning retraining the unemployed in the afternoon and the underemployed in the evening. If the vocational placement service matches job opportunities to skills extensive preparation will bring measurable rewards. Today's problems dictate a new philosophy for the school of tomorrow. Education is a process of transmitting our heritage of acculturation to a real life situation in its facets and of developing insights for the handling of tomorrow's problems. The many minority group children without moorings in our midst by the Pope are from a variety of agencies acting in their behalf. It is inevitable that the school the only institution which

serves the children be used as a surrogate parent to steer the child through the morass. The Head Start program in the summer of 1965 introduced the school to the tuning up process. They must undergo to service younger children the Head Start program. Dr. train taught the preschool child. Also tried to teach his parents standards of child care and rearing. To make the learning process relative relevant to life in a complex society. School must establish continual relationships with colleges technical and professional schools labor unions industry and profession. Business organizations joint programs must be developed to measure the skill of each child. To locate the institution in which his skills may be further developed in time you have

to provide guidance as you just to the problem of supporting himself and the family. In short to ease the transition from childhood to self-sustaining adult which which as successful middle class parents which also says successful middle class parents try to do for their children. At no time have the schools been subjected to so much pressure to change Sputnik. The dropout in an affluent society and a population explosion have forced reexamination of content method of the use of teaching machines and other electronic devices. The preparation of teachers and their in-service training the advisability of vocational high schools as opposed to technical high schools after graduation. The Comprehensive High School. Instead I would suggest we need a revolution in the nature of the schools responsibility for the education of all the children not only while they are in school but long after long enough to assure the child a place in the mainstream of American life.

As imperatives are increasingly fixed by continuing contact with the changing world outside schools must respond less to pressure and more to the needs of the child but most particularly to the needs of the child barred by caste and class from walking through the open gate to complete equality of opportunity. As a Gibson you will recall you have Dr. Lincoln's presentation earlier that we had a feeling I think of undue optimism following Mrs. Bines presentation. Are you optimism or pessimism. Well I'm overwhelmed by the presentation itself I think it was a splendid. Discussion of the role of the school with respect to minority groups and what might be done there were

elements of pessimism and optimism quite naturally in your survey of what the school has done and what the school can do. I don't adopt a very serious share with Mrs. Barnett the pessimism implicit or explicit in Dr. Pettigrew statement about well if you take the projections of the 1950s it's going to be well into the 21st century before they say Negro is at par because I think so much has happened in the 1960s. But I think that one thing that was of concern to me that I'd like to ask you Mrs Burnet you said that the negro unable and unwilling to go through the open gate is a new experience in our history of social mobility. You talked about a lot of open gates do you mean by that statement that even though many opportunities have been created in the schools and economic opportunities civil rights acts and so forth that many negroes simply have not availed themselves of the opportunity to go to the gate. Right. Right. And what's more that they seem low afraid to try. Not just to veil them not having recognized the opportunity that they stand back and will not.

But the thing we see instead of working harder. In school many of them have almost retreated fearing to make the competitive struggle. Something that will show them up is inadequate. I find that pessimistic. Well I don't know that I can buy your comment on you said individual winning was an individual process. Learning was an individual matter to be sure but it seems to me that you took the new out of competition which would mean to me that you took him out of culture because our culture is a competitor. Our society is a competitive society. At worst it's a dog eat dog society. And I have a feeling that many Negro youngsters and parents. Know the reality of the UN. Competitive climate. And I wonder what your suggestions have done to this kind of context. I agree that we live in a competitive society and we're not going to change I think that we certainly are

not. And no school can take itself out of the culture of French it is geared. We want to prepare the youngster for that culture. There isn't any doubt about that. On the other hand if we say to the child that today you must accomplish all of this we ask you. Either. To break his neck beyond anything he's ever going to be able to accomplish or to give up before he starts. And it seems to me. It seems to me that we have to give him an opportunity to sense his potential. I think too often we've done damage not only to the negro child or to the push we can charge racial minorities. But we've done damage to many of the other children because we have said to them that what we have set up as necessary for them to learn is something they must learn why. It seems to me we've lost a great deal of human talent all along the way right through our educational history you know not so I would just like and I think it's not different I think I think it's worse for him he

has a harder time I think is out there is also damage inflicted. If we say to the negro youngster that he's done very well when competitively he's not going to make it. So I without a doubt we can solve this and we have a panel coming up at the next session but I would like to look at this competitive business and the and something that the Negro community is complaining about the fact that the youngsters seem to do well and then we get into the competitive climate of the secondary school seem never to make it although they've done well by teachers grades in the elementary school. But I'm. I'm not saying to do well by teachers grade by the standard used teachers grades because that I think is a mistake. Teachers who are known to mark the marks I'm not sure what that means. Well let me see if I can define that just a bit. It seems to me that if we set ourselves units of work that youngsters will recognize and understand they need to know. They finish a unit of work and when they finish it they have the.

Sense that they have grasped enough of it so they can go on to the next step. That does not mean some of them will get some less but in every instance the test ought to be how much of this have they mastered before they are ready to go on to the next layer of understanding to the next step whether it's in mathematics whether it's in the social sciences. Some Well this is what he said I think if it wasn't continuous learning I know it against on the ski slope I'm not so sure that it exists. Well let's let's talk about this when the panel joins us for the second period for the second self. Man I ask a question I like to submit one to Mrs. Martin. You talked about how you as an organization have talked about several times in these sessions and you said that it's lack of faith in the schools is painfully evident now and then you said a lot of things that are you did to prepare youngsters and then already groups for later vocational trades and talents.

You said this on the one hand then on the other hand you seem to praise the Head Start program or something being identified with the school system the Head Start program is not just a program conducted by New York City schools it's a program may be conducted outside of the schools by other organizations as well. It's not just a set of separate curricular programs right. But what was your main point about how you this lack of faith in the schools was painful in our city school system was just considered by a number of statements made in its in its origins which we made up for In Session I'm going to say. But I guess I would suspect that they raise some questions as to whether New York City schools were effective enough but they were really teaching children so many of our children go through school and by being able to read at 3 point something level they never get to the point where they're functionally literate and the question was raised why bother sending him to school if this is all you can produce. The malefactor data said that the longer you stayed in school the more retire you became so the soloist an educator of agency was not educating. That's right

thing to me then at that point that we want to raise the question as to why I did this in that connection I want to go back and answer what you write me off with again was do according to how you do the fact that parents had said I had arrived to the conclusion that the schools no longer could or would teach the youngster in reverse. The schools arrived to the conclusion at the conclusion of the answers could I wouldn't couldn't learn and in this terrible impasse we have a problem. But your point is the school should do this job right. I think that it's too bad that we give up on this job. Things do have to be I intervene and say they are meant to be and say that it seems to me Mr. Bennett that you have placed a tremendous. Burden on the schools. I have heard other you just imply that other agencies might utilize and sponsor the preschool program. Now let me say that there's been very little mention of the out of school education for example in the work of Clark and Sloan. There's a great deal of

reference made to first in one volume to two. Classrooms in the stores than classrooms in the factories classrooms in the military. There's a great deal of education going on outside and I haven't heard any reference lets say to the kind of situation that I signed Bratislava in the spring of 1960 if I were in Czechoslovakia you don't know your geography ducked again so I didn't talk well. Well let me say that you're working for the checkers working government in the spring of 1965. I witnessed a number of technological. Educational developments in which a secondary school developing technicians was tied to the chemistry of the chemical factory by physically so that the school was here. There was an adjoining corridor that tied into the factory that provided a certain kind of a program with a reality orientation and I got no feel of the fact that there were many out there there were many non-school of other school education resources that might help us solve this problem.

It's not a fact it seemed to me that I had tied that in. Perhaps to completely and perhaps for that reason you missed it. I have the feeling that there ought to be one agency responsible for the overall picture. I think to be the schools to have it at what level a comprehensive high school are all the way through. That is it seems to me that the school as the only agency is the only agency that meets the child. All the children I want to begin that sense of responsibility for that child's future from the day that they perceive them. They want to carry that through until they are 21 years 20 years. The responsible agency for making the transition from infancy to mature into a mature participation in an adult society and that will mean work. If you do that then the school will be the agency that will find out where the best possibilities offer training children. In some instances they may be in school. In other instances they may be on the job training. In other instances they may be apprenticeship programs

and were cooperative and it seems to me then that we would find the kind of agency to do the job that would help the child make the transition. And it's in that connection that I talk about the Comprehensive High School because in such as in such a school we get a view of the child that is perhaps bigger than anybody anybody can look at if we look at them from a vantage point of a vocational high school which sees him only as a transition moving from school or job or an academic high school which sees him only as moving from academic subjects to college because he is convinced to give so I drive this from her remark start I think I saw that in person next person. Well I think expecting much too much from the school. And she doesn't have the sense there's a great deal more education going out on outside the school. Well I think you've made your point with respect to the communist school system where in the United States and I think that we should focus on some of the problems right here with me one of them that you cited that strike on me.

All right let me let me indicate that I made a reference to three volumes on education in factories education in stores education in the military which is much more realistic much closely tied up with with the current situations that we're going to have an up plan also a Labor person. And we will have to refer to him I think on the U.S. Department of Labor. Yes but you talk in some of your statistics and I'm glad you mentioned Puerto Ricans because maybe too often we've just been focusing upon the negro as a minority group although Duckie versus an action on several occasions that there are the groups with which we are concerned. But then there were several occasions where you had statistic showing Negro and then white. Now the whites were Puerto Ricans were there other minority groups. In your breakdown there when we talked about all the citizens they would include Puerto Ricans and other minority groups. All of the minority groups. The reason for making the point about that was that constitutes perhaps a law against racial majority and he's presented a special set of problems that do not always tie in with that which is presented by the Puerto Rican Shawne

the Puerto Rican child does not come with a negative self concept either for himself or his race as such he doesn't think of himself as a set as a race apart. When he begins to think of himself as a race apart. You suffer the same suffers the same. Yes but on the other held until that point and for many they never reach that point. Toll so that the problem is not always the say. And I focused on the negro because the system is not set up to Mrs. Barnett really has given us a great deal of material and we've only opened up the situation. We will look to the panel and we're pleased to know that you're going to be with us in the battle that they're serious.