WGBH Radio; The Callie Crossley Show

I'm callin Crossley This is the Cali Crossley Show. Last month President Obama announced that all employers must pay for contraception in their health plans and that it must be free of charge no co-pays no deductibles. Churches are exempt. But since Catholic hospitals and universities serve so many who aren't Catholic the president said they had to comply. The immediate fallout has come from the Catholic Church who say this violates religious freedoms. Conservatives are also pouncing on the president. Meanwhile activists argue this uproar is a direct assault on women's health rights with the nation's feathers sufficiently ruffled. President Obama has tried to smooth things out making an accommodation that gets employers with religious objections off the hook. This hour we look at what this mandate means for the presidential election. Religious liberties and women's rights. Up next swallowing a bitter pill. Obama's contraception rule. First the news from NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi saying outrage over Senegal's upcoming

presidential election is igniting a new round of violent protests in the capital. Riot police have fired tear gas to disperse opposition protesters who are demonstrating against the president's bid for a third term. NPR's Ofeibea Quist Arkin is on the front lines of the protests and the car's main Independence Square. I've not been told it's March.

At Independence Square. The White House is dismissing Syria's promise to hold a new constitution referendum is laughable saying it makes a mockery of the Syrian uprising. NPR's Kelly McEvers has details on that referendum which President Bashar al-Assad says he wants to hold next week. The new constitution which was written by an executive committee over the past four months has removed an article saying the Syrian Bath Party is the leader of the country. Activists say the reforms are too little too late. Meanwhile a fifth black cloud of smoke billowed over the city of Homs which has come under fierce government attack for the past two weeks. Activists in Homs say government troops hit an oil pipeline. The Syrian government says the attack was carried out by a terrorist group. French officials say they will negotiate with Russia in the coming days on a new U.N. Security Council resolution about Syria. Russia had vetoed a resolution that indirectly called for Syrian President Bashar al-Assad to step down. Kelly McEvers NPR News

Beirut. NATO's expressing condolences for an airstrike in eastern Afghanistan this month that killed eight civilians. Allied forces dropped two bombs in a district in Cup Eesa province after movements by several people on the ground were assessed as a threat to Afghan NATO security forces in the area. House Republicans are tentatively agreeing to extend the payroll tax cut and unemployment insurance this year without requiring they be offset by spending cuts. However final details are still being hammered out. The House is expected to vote on the measure this week. At last check Dow is down 88 points to 12000 790. This is NPR News. From the WGBH radio news room in Boston I'm Christina Quinn with the local stories we're following. A new Quinnipiac University poll shows Rick Santorum at the top of the polls in Ohio. The Boston Globe reports the poll found Santorum with support from 36 percent of likely Republican primary voters compared to 29 percent for former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney. But Romney still has the best chance in a general election campaign against President

Obama in Ohio a swing state. The poll found that Obama would beat Romney by two points within the poll's margin of error. That would beat Santorum by six. The poll comes on the heels of an American Research Group poll yesterday that found Santorum leading Romney in Michigan which votes February 28. There's a disturbing reminder of how photographs put online can end up anywhere. Authorities in Massachusetts are looking into how pictures of 17 high school students ended up on a pornography Web site. Police in Charleston say it appears the photos of the fully clothed students from Bay path Vocational Technical School were lifted from their Facebook pages. The pictures were reproduced on the Web site that's based outside the United States. A New York City man has pleaded not guilty to murder and robbery charges in the slaying of an IPS which restaurant owner the Salem News reports Chang soon was arraigned yesterday in a September beating and stabbing death of 62 year old Tony woo woos restaurant. The majestic dragon in Rhode Island restaurant owners are joining forces to fight a plan by Governor Lincoln Chafee to increase the state's restaurant tax from 8 percent to 10 percent. The Times of Pawtucket reports nearly 100

restaurant owners and employees from across the state met this week in Cumberland to develop a strategy against the tax increase which is now being considered by state lawmakers. In the weather forecast for this afternoon cloudy skies with a slight chance of showers highs in the mid 40s tonight mostly cloudy with temperatures in the lower 30s. Right now it's 43 degrees in Boston 42 in Wister and 44 in Providence. Support for NPR comes from Cabot creamery cooperative five generations of New England a New York farm families working together to produce naturally aged traditional Vermont cheddar cheese. I'm Christina Quinn. You'll find more news at WGBH news dot org. Good afternoon I'm Cally Crossley. Today we're talking about President Obama's contraception rule. The health care reform mandate that all employers must pay for contraception in their health plans and that it must be free of charge. Drew so much heat from the Catholic Church evangelical Christians and conservatives that President Obama had to tweak his plan so that employers with

religious objections are now off the hook. Joining me to talk about how politics women's rights and religious freedoms are all intersecting is Michelle Dillon a professor of sociology at the University of New Hampshire. Eric O'Brien is with us. She's an associate professor of political science at UMass Boston. And E.J. Graff is here. She's a daily columnist and contributing editor at The American Prospect and resident scholar at the Brandeis women's studies research center. Welcome to you Well thank you. Thank you very much. Michele I'm going to start with you because I want to get each of you to just give me your initial response when you heard about what became a controversy this is before the compromise. What did you think Michele. Well frankly I really feel like trade away the political response by the bishop because you know I think that the only. Thank you. 70 now to official contraception is basically a moot issue for most Catholics that means survey after survey have consistently shown that you know most Catholics make up their own mind and actually use

contraception. And really if I even talked about in Catholic circles that's really regarded as a moot issue. And so frankly it was very surprising to me at one level that the bishops were drawing attention to the fact indirectly at least that most Catholics agree with them on this issue but nonetheless making it into a political issue by using the highly emotional salient framework of what the just liberty in which the couches and of course in the context of an election year. Certainly that's going to take on even at a charge. All right Erin and Brian what do you think. Initially my thought was oh gosh this is the great unknown. And I really thought this can go one of two ways. One does this play into this long term sort of idea about Obama that he's so anti-religion. And that this is going to mobilize yet another constituency and even just add to that rhetoric. That was one option the other option I saw is especially because this was just coming after Komen and Planned Parenthood. I thought Now this could be a real opportunity for the White House to if we can reframe

abortion politics to make you know this is about contraception. And if they're able to do this contraception women's rights and take just pure abortion politics out of the election then there's a real opportunity. Independent women. Women decide those elections at the margins and they use contraception and they want to make sure others can use contraception. Just to be clear the Susan G Komen controversy that you referred to came up when the Susan G Komen announced they were going to defund Planned Parenthood is a little bit more complicated than that but that's the essence of what got out there and women and other supporters were in an uproar and took money away and put a lot of pressure on them and they came back and said wait wait wait wait wait I just can't we're not going to do that. And so and by the way Planned Parenthood raised a lot of money in the interim. So just to let people understand what your reference was E.J. what did you think when you first heard it. Well different things like. And I thought about it coming on the heels of the Komen and Planned Parenthood controversy which seemed to me to

draw tremendous attention to the fact that Planned Parenthood provides a range of women's health services not just abortion being 3 percent of their offerings. That Obama in saying yes if even if you were if you were a religious organization but what you are doing with your time and money is running a hospital or a university or some other secular organization you still have to treat your employees as if they have a right to use their health insurance to pay for their contraception. I thought that was spectacular and that he had a chance to win back the feminists who were absolutely furious at being sold down the river on the Plan-B issue in which he and Kathleen Sebelius the head of Health and Human Services overruled the FDA which said there was no reason not to offer day after contraception over the counter and Plan B being that day after contraception. So that would have been just for clarification that would have been in drug stores on the shelf

available to anyone without prescription. And as you said HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius and President Obama siding with her saying no we're not going we're blocking that. Right so saying that even if you call yourself I mean and I'm not I don't mean to say call yourself even if you are doing this out of a social mission that you base in your religion if what you're doing is providing secular services. You still have to comply with the law and let your employees your janitors your administrative assistants your phlebotomists. Have access to contraception without coverage package coverage yes without without no co-pays no no deductibles. Now back to you Michelle So lots of time or it seems like a lot of time with days after this was announced with much controversy much much whipping up in the public space. And then President Obama steps out and says OK here's my compromise. The Catholic affiliation going to have a

year to think about you know how they might employ this in the in the interim. I'm going to make a way so that these women who are employed by religious affiliated associate organizations primarily Catholic can directly get their contraceptives from the insurance companies. So what then did you think about that. Well I mean politically President Obama had to make some compromise. I mean again of course it was regrettable that he happened on to that by there had been anticipated that the bishops are a highly powerful lobby. They've had many many years of experience. They're going to pull through. We weighed that today and you know they've been gearing up you know for sort of a political showdown if you like over some of these sexual behavior issues. So and from a political point of view I think of the somewhat naive on the part of the White House. Not have anticipated this and have avoided all of the continuing controversy about it given the perception therefore it has been mentioned that Obama is anti-religion. But you know the Catholic bishops are working on this issue in the larger

context. Is there the ongoing abortion issue of course and the fight all the money that both sides pro-choice or pro-life including the bishops have invested in the issue really public opinion has not shifted much. There have been some restrictions certainly in polls but for the most part you know the majority of Americans Catholics included believe that women should have the legal right to abortion. Now we're having the same sex marriage issue and certainly the momentum is also against the Catholic bishops on that. And so I think from the larger context that the Catholic bishops. Looking around and saying they have lost their own people on a lot of issues. But can't they somehow try to reclaim some of the conversation and even have you know score some short term political victory. All right fair enough Brian. You know I thought Obama got really lucky here. The first move was clumsy out of the box it was ugly the second one planned or not and I don't think it was planned. But by having the compromise there he just shored up a lot of bases won all those religiosity differences amongst Catholics are

diffused. Fifty four percent voted for them. They're retail Catholics they're obviously not single issue voters and they voted for Obama. So now those folks are back in his camps in part because of what Michele said but those U.S. bishops with them coming out with such a hard line. Now the split amongst Catholics is back. This doesn't hurt Obama in the general but in the primary I think you lucked out clumsy or not this put Santorum out there keep Santorum in the race. Yes START Rick Santorum it's a win win for Obama no matter what goes on here if Santorum is the nominee. Good for Obama he's easier to beat in the general. But now that this social issue and Santorum has come out really really strong on this he's really come out saying you know this is a violation of religious freedom and he's getting all those more evangelical and more orthodox more traditional Catholics there. OK. That means Romney has to spend money which we all know he has a lot of but he has to spend it and he has to spend it being really negative. And that brings up his negatives. So it extends the Republican primary in ways that I think are quite advantageous to the Obama

administration. And third because of it it allowed him as E.J. had alluded to and allowed him to keep women use contraception and care about contraception. Thinking Obama decided with us this time. And so while the first play ugly you know incomplete pass. I think he really connected on the compromised in ways that are electorally advantageous for him. E.J. Graff before you speak Aaron O'Brien mentioned Rick Santorum in her response and Steven Kull Bahr comedian Stephen Colbert Report actually referenced that in a skit that he did as historical split skit that he did on his recent show and I just wanted to give people a chance to hear about it. So here's Stephen Colbert air discussing how presidential candidate Rick Santorum is interpretating the contraception mandate. My fellow Catholic Rick Santorum points out this puts us on a slippery lubricated slope.

I mean. In America. When you were in. The towers. Oh. God. You could write us. Oh he's the frontrunner who was. In. My house. Became good. Yes. Here's covering co-pays for birth control. Here's the heading if that holds. OK so E.J. Graff Now you can respond to what did you think about President Obama's some call compromise and maybe that in the context of Steven Kull bears criticism by the way Steven call there is a Catholic if people missed it so just want to make that clear. Well first gala I got to tell you if you have not actually seen that full 14 minutes you got to go do it because at the end we end up getting a banana and how you get there is very funny. OK you got it you got to see it now. I think he won. I think Obama really won with this. And I've seen people speculating that

these like two weeks of apparent chaos were intentional. I'm not I don't know about that I'm not inside. But just as I said I think it was it worked out really well for him. It exposed the really radical anti contraception agenda that a lot of feminists have known about for a long time. Women have been getting feminists and reproductive reproductive rights activists have been getting mocked for saying that there is this nascent and building anti contraception agenda that's been behind the abortion wars. But this has really brought it out. There's there's is a strong movement toward Rick Santorum for instance says we should overturn Griswold that states should be free to go back to banning contraception. That's a Supreme Court decision that's very important Supreme Court decision that said states could

not prevent married people from purchasing contraception which they had been able to do up until then. I think that's 1965 Yes which is arguably much more important than Roe v. Wade although Roe v. Wade gets all the love or hate but Grizz well change more women's lives. And I want to go back to something Michelle alluded to. And that's how far what the bishops are standing up for theirs. There's a coherent worldview at work here in the opposition to same sex marriage LGBT equality contraception abortion all of that and Santorum actually manages to articulate it pretty well in a couple of places. And that's the idea that the only right use of the sexual parts of the body is to create more worshippers for God this goes back to Augustine and the early church theology about sex that the sexual impulses district distract distracted him from concentrating on

God and so therefore the only possible right use of that was to make more souls. And so all these other ways that people use their bodies are immoral and take away from good living. That's I think that that agenda that anti contraception agenda into equality agenda that that's been put on beautiful display here. OK we've got much more to talk oh go ahead Michelle. You know I just I mean I generally agree more or less of what's being said but I think in fairness the Catholic theology. I mean there have been you know important development of the Catholic understanding of sexuality and the place of sexuality in relationships. You know certainly the time Augusten and I do think there's an acknowledgement that sexuality and sexual behavior is used to enhance the relationship. That's of course the take from them. That the bishop's insistence that all you know the sexual relationship on the other hand should be open to life so there is obviously you know a continuation with you know anti contraception abortion and you think sex.

But just in fairness I'd like to point out that Catholic theology has moved on from that. I'm sorry I didn't mean to slam on Catholics at all and I'm glad you clarified. I think what what this all has done even more is shown that that's where the evangelists alright has gone as well. This is not true and I think Rick Santorum is really you know he's not a typical Catholic. Yeah even though I think most from all of the data we have still most Catholics will qualitatively distinguish for example between contraception and abortion. I mean abortion for them is a different issue even though many are favor of legal right to choice. But contraception is just a whole other sort of section in their thinking where really they believe they have the individual moral authority to use contraception if they so make that decision. All right. We're going to continue this conversation. We're talking about the latest developments surrounding President Obama's contraception mandate. Employers must pay for contraception in their health plans and that it must be free of charge. President Obama's had to make

accommodations to this rule so that employers with religious objections are exempted from this. We're looking at how this will affect him in the general election. We're examining what this uproar says about religious freedoms politics and women's rights today in the 21st century. You can join the conversation at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. If you are Catholic What's your take on this. Has President Obama lost your vote because of this. Or scored 1 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 8 9 7 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 70. As always you can go right to our Facebook page or send us a tweet. That's going to WGBH Boston Public Radio. This program is on WGBH thanks to you and the Harvard innovation lab a university wide center for innovation where entrepreneurs from Harvard the Austin Community Boston and beyond engage in teaching and learning about entrepreneurship. Information at I lab

at Harvard dot edu. And Newberry court a full service residential community for persons over the age of 62. Newberry court invites you to schedule a visit any day of the week including Saturdays and Sundays to schedule. You can visit Newbury CT dot org. Nathan Englander has a new collection of short stories based in part on being raised as an Orthodox Jew and having an overprotective mother. My mother raised me very clearly that if you cross the street you will die if you go outside you will die if you play sports you will likely die. Nathan Englander on the next FRESH AIR. Join us. This afternoon at to hear an eighty nine point seven WGBH. The WGBH member card pages of your member card is good for discounts on our

chosen releases haters. The NBA drives ecological education festivals getaways home insulation jazz joints picks for the kids luggage music both new and old as pumpkin pancakes while you read stolen toys used volumes of Virginia Woolf and X-Men yogurts and Zipcar. Learn how much it pays to support public broadcasting online at WGBH dot org. A nano meter is the length of about 10 atoms. I'm Karen Miller and this week on innovation have we delved into the huge possibilities of nanotechnology. Saturday morning at 7:00 here on eighty nine point seven WGBH. Welcome back to the Calla Crossley Show if you're just joining us we're discussing the latest developments surrounding President Obama's contraception rule. The health care reform mandate that all employers must pay for contraception in their health plans and that it must be free of charge. Now President Obama had to make accommodations to this rule so that employers with

religious objections but really Churches are exempt from this. The ones with religious objections have to make have to provide the insurance but allow for those women to be able to get it from the insurance companies they don't have to pay for it in other words. I'm joined by Michele Dillon professor of sociology at the University of New Hampshire. Erin O'Brian associate professor of political science at UMass Boston and E.J. Graf she's a daily columnist and contributing editor at The American Prospect and resident scholar at the Brandeis women's studies research center. Join the conversation at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 Catholics are you with the president on this or against him. Women What say you. 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. You can write me a tweet at Kelly Crossley or write to our Facebook page. Michelle Gillen there is one point I want to get clear before to articulate before we take calls. The New York Times has an interesting piece today talking about this very issue and they make a distinction

between Catholic leaders who apparently are supporting the president and the quote compromise and Catholic Bishops who are not. And I'd like you to speak to that if you would. Right well I think that's an important distinction to make and then of course there's also the Catholic laity who often get forgotten about. But you know the Catholic bishops obviously are if you like the more official voice of the official Catholic Church but particularly in this issue and really in in so much of the everyday life of American culture not just Catholics Catholic colleges and universities Catholic Medical Associations they play a very vital role. And you know they are in a sense secular organizations I mean one of the ironies of all of this is that for many decades you know Catholic organizations have fallen in a sense could be full of players in American public culture and certainly over the course of the 20th century have really become core parts office. But now you know if they have highly regarded hospitals and colleges and suddenly there's some discussion that oh my goodness you know if you go to this Catholic college you want to vote. Access to contraception that's sort of a throwback you know

to the 1940s and as if the Catholic Church is an almost cult like sect rather than a public church a public religion that wants to have services for their education health care or any other services for all Americans. And so I think this is something that may actually not help the reputation of some of the Catholic there almost Pyra secular institutions even though they're obviously run by Catholic organizations. That's my guess Michel Delon professor of sociology at the University of New Hampshire. Let's take a call. Bob you're on I-93. Hopefully safely on the side you're on the Kelly Crossley Show. Eighty nine point seven WGBH. I'm using hands free cell right. OK. I think I'm not sure which one of your guests made this comment but I think she's I think they're missing the whole point. This is not a discussion about birth control whether it's good whether people should have access to it. This is that's but that's a whole different discussion the discussion today is does government have a role in telling a

church what it has to do. And that's that's the discussion the government has no business telling a church how to run a church. OK so that's the point. So how many. You can believe anything you want you can be pro anti birth control and still believe that government has no business telling a church what it has to do. Can I just interrupt you just for a second just for a point of clarification. Churches are exempt. OK so that's off the table churches. The rule does not tell churches anything so they're not even in the debate on organizations like universities and right. So so so that we are talking about is a few organizations that are affiliated with the church who have employees that are not affiliated of the faith. OK so that's where the aim of this mandate goes. And to that extent then it's about funding that birth control part of an overall set of health care services right. Amateur should not be forced in any way. But it's not a church. We have to be clear about that the church is not

forced. It's not forced. The churches are not force that's off the table. He did He has a Catholic university is part of the church. It's not just affiliated and part of the current you know you run through the hierarchy of the church. They teach all right I'm going to let Michelle Delane who is an expert in this. Back to you but yet I would say you know going to I think universities want to have their own independent identity and they have fought for many decades to have the accreditation have the credibility that they're not just a marginal institution on the margins for these parochial with Catholics who have withdrawn from the public culture of the Catholic. The church considers itself a public church it's not a fact and therefore it wants people to participate in secular organizations and Catholic institutions themselves have appealed to bringing non-Catholics into their colleges into their dorm into their classrooms and to educate them. Certainly with a certain sense of the Catholic sensibility. But in all of the rigors of the larger secular intellectual traditions the death of a generation with the idea that you know what the Church teaches you come into the university knowing that you're either the

auspices of Rome. Well you know I like to know when kids do these college tours do all of the Catholic colleges and universities make a pronouncement that you know there are polls that they oppose contraception that they oppose all of these other things that Catholics too are using a lot that this is against the yuan that you can still you know. The next question I'm going to Bob or Bob almost like of course I'm going to let me I'm going to let one of my other guests also respond to you but I want to put this piece of fact out there. The church affiliated institutions the ones affiliated with the church pay for via Agra and Cialis. OK. Oh yeah they do. OK so that is definitely that's that's you know sexual products for men against church teaching. Well I'm just telling you they're paying for it in the in the search teaching. I'm E.J. Graff speaks. I'm sorry but I think that there is a microphone. Let me let me guess but go ahead. If we're not talking about the students we're talking about somebody goes to gets a job

to be a janitor to be and then a straight of assistant to take blood to put to feed her family. And does she have the right to use her health care plan in the way that she sees fit. She may or may not be catholic she certainly doesn't have the job at that particular university or that particular hospital specifically to worship. She doesn't for the same because it's the only hospital in town in many cases the Catholic hospital is the only hospital in town. And so we're going to question of So I'm sorry sir I'm still talking. So she if if she were working for. Jewish run hospital would she be able to take her money and go buy pork if she is working for a Catholic hospital she can take her money and go buy contraception. That's what she's doing she's paying for an insurance plan that will not provide contraception to her free of charge. She's paying for the other aspect is we're taking money from these people and giving it to these people and people want to buy contraception by it that they have.

That's what that's what that's what we're going to have to let you go but that exactly what is happening. But but there but the but the difference is that they're not being blocked from doing so so that's what their government blocked from doing so anybody can go buy contraception not for free. I mean I don't know it shouldn't be for free everything has to be for free. Well to pay for it. Well nobody was articulating one frame of this debate he was articulating more traditionalist Catholic and 25 percent of Catholics say they're orthodox they're fundamentalist or evangelical excuse me you know Catholics don't use the term Orthodox or fundamentalist about that poll they do. And so 46 percent of those did not vote for Obama and he's articulating that. Now importantly the American Association of Jesuit colleges and universities has come out for this accommodation. And so there is another frame here amongst the Catholic community. That is what some call more retail Catholics and they're ones who sort of pick and choose and they're coming out strongly in favor of the

accommodations so to say it's just about one thing is not true it speaks to one segment of the Catholic population. But the Catholic block is far from homogeneous on this. And Catholic Jesuits and universities which are known as this quote unquote more liberal have come out in favor of this accommodation. All right Chris like you all Catholics are selective Catholics but that's so they pick and choose depending on the issue. And that's you know that's again well-documented so many Catholics would be in favor you know of the Obama position on contraception but that be not in favor of some of the policy not to do a tax on the debt. So you know there isn't this on they don't you know it's Catholic orthodoxy that they should do X or Y this is interpreted in everyday life. Well which brings us back to the point of if the do the bishops speak for everyone. So if they do you know yes they should. You know most Catholics for most Catholics even the most highly committed that is those who go to church every week and say they would never leave the Catholic church they still prefer

to have the right to use their own moral authority and you know the Catholic Church has always emphasized faith and reason using practical reason to make an informed comprehension station about federal economic issues or sexual behavior issues and that's very much the Catholic way. I want to bring back the point that this that the outrage about this is not primarily Catholic that the political outrage is coming a lot from not just the event invent but the right wing that believes in this. I wouldn't put money on Bob having been Catholic for instance. He may be but he was articulating something that is articulated by a libertarian Republican strain that says the government should not be telling the rest of us what to do. On the flipside of that though. Well Bob's issue was about payment too. So right be clear. But government mandate thing. Right I mean I just want to you know want to put it you know be clear you know what he was saying is about payment

go ahead. I'm sorry I'm not derailed. So all right let me take a call from Christine Providence from Providence Rhode Island Go ahead please you're on the Kelly Crossley Show WGBH. Eighty nine point seven. Hi Kelly thanks for taking my call. Basically what I want to say is I think the Obama administration has a problem with their kind of vested in the semantics I'm actually for I voted for Barack Obama and I'm I'm for this for you know the contraception for women. But I feel like when they're saying it's free. That isn't that second 15 you know peel this ammunition. Well if we have preventive screening that we won't be able to afford health care like. So for my example I mean buy health care policy cost over $17000 a year for a family plan buy health provide my employer pays 80 percent. I pay 20 percent plus I have a $3000 adoptable. I know that it's not supposed to come in the deductible. So if it's

not free I mean there's money being paid towards all of the services of health care and I just feel like I've had all this talk about free this free that is the DLC and the Tea Party more ammunition I feel like they just need to change their semantics and their. Their message that and I'll take my comment off my comment off the air. Thanks very much for your call Christine. Well let me just refer to a comment by Democratic Senator Barbara Mikulski of Maryland who agrees with you she said. Why aren't we messaging this better during a meeting with the Obama campaign manager Jim S. Messina according to Politico dot com that was a comment from her. She feels that it's not you know the clarification around the issues leaves people like mad about the money and other people suggesting that you know there are some instruction being told to religious institutions and that's not the case. It's really about the people that work at affiliated

institutions and it's about what is a part of an overall package. And why it cost is an issue. I just want to put this on the table is that for a lot of very poor women and now middle class women who are struggling the cost of birth control is actually quite prohibitive. Now this is not addressed Bob's point about teachings of the church I'm understanding. If you're still listening but it does address why this is included in the package and why so many people fought for it to be included in the package. So you're talking about if you if you look at Birth control pills that's just one method. It can run you fifty to one hundred dollars. 15 to a $50 a month and generically maybe is twenty eight dollars a month. Now compare and contrast the fact that we just had a big fight on extending the employee tax cut that's 40 dollars added back into the paychecks of working people and they said that means something to them. So if you're talking about $50 a month coming out for something you feel you want to do because you you're doing a kind you're doing family planning that's important. So I just want to put those

facts on the table. And also health I mean a lot of a lot of women use. I think it's something like 40 percent of people who use the pill do it for other health related reasons to combat and Dmitri osis or prevent burst over a or something like that. Right. Yes. I just need to highlight that not a lot of women use this not for birth control per se but really doctors use it to control these other regulate medicines. Exactly so and it's been. If I want to respond to something that were messaging badly in some ways like what you just articulated the Democrats are renowned for not being as good at this right. But if the Democrats were able to get out there and articulate as you did that this is a real cost issue its not free like I'm going to target and I'm getting a two for one right. This is free in that $50 a week means a lot especially in this economy. OK well I know the tough economy $50 is a lot of money. Now you're connecting whereas if you're saying this sort of free stuff

that the Republicans are doing a much better job here I'm picking up on that Christine said hey you know I'm paying for it to have it right and then I'll It becomes us versus them and it becomes the Democrats are out of touch when the Democrats could just as easily come back and say you know you're out of touch. Cost a lot more to have an additional child. Fifty dollars a month is no joke in this economy. And that's why insurance companies want to go along with it. They'd much rather have someone on contraception because having a child is infinitely more expensive. You haven't heard anything from them. They love this. All right. More to more to come in. A lot of conversation is debate about sending women back to the Dark Ages is that fair. I'm callin cross that we're talking about President Obama's contraception mandate. You can join the conversation at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 seventy 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. This is eighty nine point seven. WGBH Boston Public Radio.

With the. This program is made possible thanks to you. And Davis mom Andy Augustine PC attorneys at law on the web at Davis mom dot com. D A V I asked M A L am dot com proud sponsors of the take away on eighty nine point seven WGBH. And Nova follow a fearless team of scientists as they venture into underwater caves one of Earth's least explored dangerous and beautiful frontiers watch extreme cave diving Wednesday at 9:00 on WGBH too. MARCO WERMAN scientists are finding that most of us have a touch of synesthesia our

senses can overlap many people routinely identify sounds with certain flavors. Things like dark chocolate will be best with low pitch instrument sweet I think tastes tend to be high pitched. How music can affect the way things taste. That's next time on the world. Coming up at 3:00 here on eighty nine point seven WGBH. If you have a vehicle that no longer works for you. How about putting it to work for public radio. Donate your unwanted car truck to. And in addition to earning a 2012 tax deduction you'll also be supporting the programs that you depend on right here on eighty nine point seven vehicle donation program handles all of the paperwork and will even send someone out to take away the unwanted vehicle. For more information call eight six six four hundred nine for two for. Context beyond the headline. If you want to know more about. Stories you'll want to share.

News at WGBH news dot org. Welcome back to the Calla Crossley Show if you're just tuning in we're talking about President Obama's contraception mandate that all employers must pay for contraception in their health plans and that it must be free of charge meaning no co-pays and no deductions. Now is that a make a cut accommodations to this rule so that employers with religious objections can make a way for women to get the contraceptive care that they need but that they don't have to pay for it. We're looking at how this will affect him in the general election. We're examining what this uproar says about religious freedoms politics and women's rights and rights in America. I'm joined by Michelle Dillon professor of sociology at the University of New Hampshire. Erin O'Brien associate professor of political science at UMass Boston and E.J. Graff She's with the American Prospect and resident scholar at the Brandeis women's studies research center. Join the conversation at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8 7 7 3 0 1

89 70. Or you can write to our Facebook page or send us a tweet. So let me read a couple of things from our Facebook page from Susan she says I think the president did a good job. I am Catholic and I think if the church is going to be an employer they need to do the right thing for their employees. Gretchen says the issue is that health insurance plans must provide preventative care with no co-pays i.e. free and that the huge advance for women and their families is that contraceptive coverage is included in the definition of preventative care. So this isn't about the Obama administration plucking contraception out of the air for special treatment. Can you tell us what else is included in preventive care. Can you also tell us whether insurance plans must cover the SEC Timmy's and Buy agra. Well we've discussed Buy agra and Cialis and that is covered around the SEC Timmy's E.J. Graff has just said to me she believes. Explain. I don't know what the what the health care plan. Does or does not mandate about that what I do know is that Catholic hospitals will not perform

to meas or tubal ligations that again that on Link's sex and procreation and those are generally the procedures needed only for preventing pregnancy. Now here's something that I want to put on the table because I don't think a lot of people know there is current legislation in place. This is what confused me. Maybe everybody else out there wasn't confused but I was. It's already in place it's been supported by a lot of the people who are now very versus vociferous in their NOT support of this current mandate which requires that employers with more than 15 employees have to offer this coverage. The end on the first go around. Mitt Romney supported this. Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins who just came out saying that they supported President Obama's compromise were co-sponsors of the legislation that put this in place. So I don't understand maybe you all can explain to me why this

particular maybe Erin you can speak from political standpoint is so upsetting to people when this was already in place and had been in a lot of the same institutions that are now very very upset. I've had to deal with this. This is a pesky salience issue. The NIT the nitty gritty of state politics quite frankly to many people isn't that interesting. Twenty three states already have this including Georgia. They actually have one of the most quote liberal sort of policies on this. But people weren't talking about it. Now you've raised it to the federal level. It's with Obamacare which brings such resonance that the salience is so much higher that people are paying attention. So new cleavage is new political cleavages are interested in what that once that happens that people have to take more firm position and they go to their ideological post and we see that not surprisingly with the U.S. Bishops Conference of Bishops have gone really hard right. OK. But then we say this Leadership Council of Women Religious Catholic charities Catholic Health

Association and others saying hey no this is good for us. But once it's on the national scale it wasn't just about health insurance providers it wasn't just a discussion of a state legislature. Now it's the. The spotlight is shining and any time you throw in the stew fairly or unfairly abortion politics sex religion contraception I mean we're not supposed to talk about that at the dinner table. And now we're talking about it in a national politic. So everybody's finding their use of this issue and that has political legs. And politicians know it why Santorum talking about it. Why is Obama talking about it. The political legs are president and so it's change the tenor of this debate. So as we've said there's so many layers to people's response to that whether they are approving of it or disapproving of it. But one piece of it is is is pretty social. And that is I've heard Tom terminology like barefoot and pregnant you know dark they did

way back machine in describing this legislation as a way to and this is the terminology being use force women back to a time when they had less control over their bodies and that contraception is such a fundamental issue for a lot of women that this really has created it you know a male female divide in some ways. I should note that Mark Rubio. Who is a legislator. Federal Congress has introduced legislation to allow any employer to deny birth control coverage if it is against what. In his line in the language of this bill proposed bill religious or moral beliefs. Now moral is murky because that's in the eye of the bowler. We can figure out what religious means. So there is that E.J. Graff there where women are responding. They're not particularly religious but they just don't appreciate feeling as though they're being pushed back to a time that is of madman quality and quality that television shows that in the 50s

and 60s. And I as I said I think it's brought out into the open this anti contraceptive movement that has been there for quite a while that's been moving forward and this agenda to shut down Planned Parenthood not primarily for its abortions but for its full range. Reproductive services Planned Parenthood was founded by Margaret Sanger. I think it was the 20s maybe somebody else knows the exact date at a time when it was illegal to hand out even information about how to prevent pregnancy and you're thinking what pill. No Goodyear made his fortune on the condom but did not talk about it all that much because it was so controversial the idea that the birth rate was starting to drop the baby boom was a big surprise because the birth rate had been dropping so dramatically that Teddy Roosevelt was talking about race

suicide as white women's families were getting smaller while the swerd the South and East Europeans families were getting bigger. It was not publicly controversial for a very brief period but there's always been a strain of American politics that has been against the separation of sex and pregnancy so this is make this a women's issue in a way that it might not have been in other ways because it it feels retro to a lot of people you know. And I think that's in part where the missing play comes in that most women when not paying attention to politics that we sort of saw this in the 70s I think that this is done. But there has been this undercurrent of attacking contraception state level local level where it's quieter and here's where I think regardless of how you feel about contraception just as the political observer here as a political observer I do think the Republicans are making a mistake because most women do use contraception. Women are slim slim majorities in favor of abortion but strong majorities in

favor of contraception. And so if this contraception discussion looks like the threat is to the pill. It's threat to this basic thing seemingly What in the Sam days then it's a Democratic. Good I think for the Republicans. That's big demographic for big Democrats that's a win because those women are the independents are more apt to go for the Democrats for the Republicans. Again regardless of how you feel on this particular issue. Times have changed I think it's a losing issue for them because while it might shore up their base their base is much smaller. They want to go and get more women involved it's not going to happen. And so contraception is not terribly controversial amongst women. And so to attack it runs with real political liabilities. Michelle Dillon back to the church at the center of this and whether they're on total losing side of this. Even with a year to ponder how they might have to rethink this

how and what I'm thinking about is and this is the fact is that a lot of groups of nuns have come out in support of the Obama compromise. I mean that's you know I would put nuns in the same category with bishops as opposed to care no leaders no don't do that I can never put ok right that's why I have you here go ahead. But I think I'm just going back to sleep. Your discussion in the bishops are their own voice in their own organization. Nuns and there are different orders of nuns there their own voice and then there are the Jesuits and all the other priests. So these are all very autonomous. They're all Catholics certainly and they have many things in common but they all have their own thinking. And nuns since at least the 60s I know people often have these stereotypical images of nuns but and many Catholic nuns they're beating feminists. And so we shouldn't be surprised that I mean obviously they care about religion and religious freedom and all of that but they care much greatly about women's equality and women's access to you know what many women consider to be a moral choice.

So you know you shouldn't be surprised to find that you were but I think from now on I don't have to do that anymore. You know one of the you know I agree with you know as a parent is that you know this is helping the Republican base certainly now and it's also helping a very tiny minority of Catholics to get energized and to link the religious liberty issue with you know the sect the secularism and the creeping liberalism of Ameri. Good policy isn't but in the long run I really don't see this as being good for the Catholic Church I mean I think as I said the fact that we're using the word catholic in contraception in the same sentence to me is a throwback to the 70s in the 60s and earlier. And you know the church as an institution is facing an awful lot of challenges that you know within its own ranks forgetting about all of the issues and how the tide she turned into the same sex. You know they have a shortage of priests they have Catholics who are increasingly questioning the credibility of the church. But you know bishops and priests are not going to speak out on political issues but to actually administer their past to posture and spiritual.

So you know I think this is not going to help the bishops in terms of their credibility among the rank and file of Catholics in the long run. The younger Catholic. Sorry I mean that 20 somethings and 30 somethings are pretty young women really are does these can gauge of all Catholics today. Well that is a follow up to that is that they're the latest to succeed. There are more single people than married people in this country. As of this moment so that I've got to presume that some of them are probably engaging in sexual activity. So this is a big issue on the issue. I just wonder then that in the in the modern world when this is a reality how does a church appeal to young people. To your point well unfortunately it hasn't found a way you can criticize the Democrats for not being very good at messaging the Catholic bishops haven't been that good either. I mean this is the point with the contraception and the you know kind of you know in 1968 when polls like issued came on TV day I mean this is this country to naturalise of any kind of contraception is immoral it's a mortal sin and that's the

argument and they haven't done anything since then to try and articulate a better theology of that or to convince people. And of course much of it. Perception outside of marriage of contraception within marriage don't forget that part. I would just add on to what Michele said that it is in part what's going on here is this is reflected in Catholic Charities the nuns are much more likely to be doing the direct service work that is very social justice oriented. That is very poverty politics that is very empowerment. Many people argue there are some blind spots in that when it comes to gender issues and issues and things like that. But the nuns Catholic charities are and are in part articulating were for this because we see the families that need contraception. We see the families middle income lower income and the shifting demographics there right. We see those families where another kid is not viable. And so there is a certain speed. Don't let that American you know politics. Don't let

abortion as the U.S. bishops have now I think by misplaying let abortion and contraception define our politic forgetting all other Where's the nuts like they should be. Yeah we're we're at the forefront of efforts of universal health care. I mean but for part of social justice teaching the big step. Not the big surprise that started in 2010 when it should have been a high point for them in terms of having an impact on public policy because of the so-called reproduction health care issues and the Obama plan. Therefore they totally condemned it so but that of the bishops and other catfish organizations sadly and the national health care with Brian Moynihan is 1919. We're not going to read abortion rights get in the way. Michelle do you know of Catholic hospitals and universities receive federal aid. They do if if well yes I mean you have to I mean there are a couple you know. All right that's a lot of callers ask that question so I just wanted to address that on the type you know point that they're not just cattle they can and narrow right that if you talk about religion even if it were any more what

religion but. You know yes they're Catholic run but they're in a public society where they're getting public dollars and publications. It's not based on religion right. OK. I've heard several people say if you take taxpayer dollars you go by taxpayer rules. I mean they are administering federal money and the Christian Science Monitor for instance offers health insurance even though it has quite central religious objections to offering health and to doctors period. There's no exception. If you're taking federal money to following the law. All right. Jon Stewart Don't conflate religious war with not getting what you want. OK. Erin with seconds to go does this does impact President Obama in the fall that's help him or hurt him and hurt. I'm sorry I lied. It helps him. I think it helps him keeping Romney in the race. And those Catholics who already voted for him will stay with him. All right well we'll be keeping an eye on that to see if your prediction is correct I thank all of you for a

very insightful conversation. We've been talking about President Obama's contraception mandate in the context of politics religious freedoms and women's rights. I've been joined by Michelle Dillon a professor of sociology at the University of New Hampshire. Aaron O'Brien associate professor of political science at UMass Boston and E.J. Graff She's with the American Prospect and resident scholar at the Brandeis women's studies research center. Thanks to all my callers as well. You can keep on top of the Calla Crossley Show at WGBH dot org slash Calla Crossley follow us on Twitter. Become a fan of the Calla Crossley Show on Facebook. Today's show was engineered by Alan Mathis and produced by Chelsea murders. Will Rose live and Abbie Ruzicka. We are a production of WGBH Boston Public Radio.