WGBH Radio; The Callie Crossley Show

I'm Cally Crossley This is the Cali Crossley Show. The fishing season is around the corner and the latest threat to fishermen is the health of the cod supply in the Gulf of Maine. Four years ago the Gulf of Maine Cod was one of the strongest pieces in the region bringing in millions of dollars. Now data indicate that this con has been so overfished that even if an immediate measure will put into place to end all cod fishing there would be no sign of it rebounding for another two years. These findings convince federal regulators to enforce a 90 percent cut in Fisherman's catch a reduction that would land a devastating blow to the industry. Fishermen have gotten a reprieve by negotiating a less severe catch limit for this year. But can this industry stay afloat. I missed regulations environmental realities and marketplace demands. Up next casting about for solutions to an ailing industry. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi saying the U.N. secretary general is

accusing the Syrian government of committing quote almost certain crimes against humanity. In Vienna today Ban Ki moon again appealed to President Bashar al Assad to call off his crackdown on political dissent. But there's no sign of that happening. Today NPR's Paul Brown spoke by phone to a Syrian resident who would not give his name for security reasons but says he is in the Baba Amr section of homes which has been under siege for two weeks. Do you have any medical care. No no no I don't think all the medicines are people starving people in but I'm available. We need only one me I didn't know who didn't know that. What do you plan to do do you plan to give up or not. We will not give up. Are they what the. NPR's Paul Brown speaking with a resident of homes. Syrian activists say troops are also conducting sweeps and arresting residents in the city of Dhahran. The government maintains it's defending the country against terrorists seeking to destabilize Syria. As Republican primaries later this month in Michigan and Arizona approach a super PAC

backing former House Speaker Newt Gingrich has unveiled some new radio ads we have the latest from NPR's Brian Naylor. The new ads are produced by Winning Our Future and are aimed at conservative voters they ask quote Are you tired of the Republican establishment telling you to hold your nose and vote for their moderate candidate. We did down this road before. They gave us Bob Dole. God. They gave us John McCain. We just. Announced they're giving. Don't let the ads are aimed at convincing Republicans that Newt Gingrich is the conservative alternative to Romney. They're scheduled to run through Super Tuesday March 6th Brian Naylor NPR News Washington. The Labor Department is again seeing fewer people file first time unemployment claims applications dropped by 13000 from the week before pulling the total down to a seasonally adjusted three hundred forty eight thousand claims in the less volatile four week average

of file claims is still falling. NPR's Yuki Noguchi reports the government is also posting a tenth of a percent jump in wholesale prices in January despite declines in energy and food costs. Energy prices declined half a percent during the month and food declined by slightly less but that was offset by an increase in the so-called core price of goods which exclude food and energy. Those core prices at the wholesale level increased four tenths of a percent. Much of that because of the higher cost of pharmaceutical preparations higher prices of trucks and household appliances also push those prices up. Markets watch wholesale prices because they can foretell whether consumer prices might face inflation. The Labor Department releases its report on consumer prices on Friday. Yuki Noguchi NPR News Washington. This is NPR. From the WGBH radio news room in Boston I'm Christina Quinn with the local stories we're following. Joseph Kenny a third today announced that he is running for the Massachusetts congressional seat now held by

retiring Congressman Barney Frank WGBH spoke with Paul hero another Democratic candidate who is running for the seat. Hiro's says now that Kennedy has joined the race it's time to focus on the issues. You know race is not about Kennedy it's worked on. And I'm really glad he's finally jumped in so we can start talking about issues instead of talking about his celebrity hero says he believes once he gets some name recognition the race will come down to him and Kennedy in the Democratic primary. The other candidates running for the seat include Democrat Herb Robinson of Newton and Republicans Elizabeth childs of Brookline and Sean P. of Norfolk. A former Salvadoran military officer accused of colluding in the 1089 slayings of six Jesuit priests has pleaded not guilty to charges of fraud and perjury for allegedly lying on U.S. immigration forms in a century Orlando Montano was arraigned today in federal court in Boston on charges related to alleged immigration fraud. He was arrested on the immigration charges last year. The 69 year old has lived near Boston for about a decade. He was among 20 Salvadorans separately indicted

in Spain last year in connection with the killings during El Salvador's 12 year civil war. The New England shrimp fishing season is ending tomorrow because fishermen have reached the catch limit for the season. Regulators with The Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission says if they don't shut down the fishery now the shrimp population population rather will suffer. And the forecast it will help partly sunny skies clear and then mostly cloudy skies this afternoon with a slight chance of showers highs in the upper 40s. Rain in the forecast for tonight with lows in the upper 30s right now it's 43 degrees in Boston 46 in was dinner and 44 in Providence. Support for NPR comes from the Public Welfare Foundation supporting coverage of workers issues more information at Public Welfare dot org. I'm Christina Cohen. You'll find more news at WGBH news daughter org. Good afternoon I'm Cally Crossley. The fishing industry in Massachusetts and New England has long been a staple in the area's economy. But federal fishing

regulations the most recent of which will drastically limit Gulf of Maine cod fishing have dealt a devastating blow to the New England fishery. Now the very existence of the historic industry among small boat fisherman is in jeopardy. Joining me in the studio to talk us through just how important the fishing industry is to New England and how detrimental the newest Gulf of Maine Cod limits are to local fisherman is Gloucester Daily Times reporter Richard Gaines. Richard Gaines has been with the Gloucester Daily Times for 10 years and for the last four years he's head of the paper's National Fisheries desk. Richard Gaines welcome. Thank you very much Kelly. Let's put this in context for everybody because it is a little bit confusing there's a lot going on here. So first what happened in 2009 to change the federal regulations so that they began to take a toll on the fish or the fisherman's life as we we know it now.

Are there a good number of things that happened simultaneously in 2009. The first is there were changes in the federal law that attempted to regulate and conserve fisheries at the magazine Stevens act and there were some changes that were written into it in 2006 that worked together with previous elements of the Magnusson act to put every endangered fish every fish that was over fish every stock that was stressed on a 10 year rebuilding timeframe and then the second thing that happened was a law that the law said that in 2000 and 48 in 2014 there had to be catch limits hard catch limits so that the rebuilding plans.

And the catch limits came together to force the regulators as they read the law to be Guinn to make extreme cuts in the catch in order to get to the end point on the deadline. When you have deadline driven recovery plans the regulators saw no choice but to clamp down on fishing. All right let's first tell us what is the catch limit a catch limit is is is how many fish can be taken out of the ocean of a certain stock. That's basically the limit. And that limit just to give you an idea. Between 2009 and 2010. There was a 19 percent decrease in the number of vessels that were working in New England as a result of these factors. Now there was one other piece of this that I had not mentioned. At the same time as you have government law saying you've got to put an end to

overfishing and you have to do it on a very very tight deadline which means catches have to go down because you're coming up against the war right. In came the new president with a new head of oceans and fisheries. Dr. Jane Lubchenco an esteemed scientist and she headed a fantastically successful almost breathtakingly. Ambitious plan to convert the wild resources of the ocean into commodities and effectively take it the only lest the last remaining indigenous industry that we have in the US. Fishing which is really kind of a small scale catch it bring it in make a little money etc. there is its owner operator has been owner operated and has been small in scale and retool it to fit it into the

invent to the global investment economy. And once that occurred in the context of these other changes we talked about which put a lot of stress on the level of catch. You set off a kind of. Lord Of The Flies situation. Dog eat dog. There's a variety of ways you could put it but small was swallowing up was being swallowed up by large and. So you have a situation now where the cod problem of mankind of mankind is going to be an extreme a cutback in gulf of being cut a catch limit for 2012 starts in May. Baby is is as small as twenty two percent maybe as large as 40 percent. No telling at this point the government has made any decisions they've said we could live with 22 percent. But

if you cut the amount of cod that can be cut short by 22 percent what you're doing really is you are further accelerating the consolidation of the fisheries because the people with a smaller allocation find themselves incapable of actually being able to make a living on that small amount of fish and so income somebody is kind of like. Buying up blocks of distressed properties that have no value at the time but can have value down the road. And unfortunately the government policy here has been instituted with a kind of distain for true democracy. Now why do you say that. Well you can you can make an argument that the catchier system which is what we're talking about here

is officiant and that there is some reason to take American fisheries and integrated into the global economy. But what's troubling is that it was never presented honestly. The agenda called Oceans of abundance which was written for President Obama by a group of scientists led by Dr. Lubchenco sponsored by the Walton foundation Wal-Mart. This is a Wal-Mart production. Their job was to tell President Obama we want to turn their fisheries into catch years however. Right so it literally but I knew that I was there because there's a lot to digest Yeah. Okay so there's a few things going on here that need to be just highlighted OK. So a couple things came together there's a hard deadline are 10 I can't on on some species that need to be we need to wrap overfishing these species and we're going to have a hard deadline. And now to help that we're going to put a catch limit on how much you can catch of

certain things and within that context the Gulf of Maine Cod are particularly hit and we need to pause and think about that because cod is really important in New England Cod. There's a cot in the Massachusetts state legislature Khat is sacred in New England so we're talking about some serious impact on the industry itself. Every small every every port along the Massachusetts and the mainland coast depends on cod fish and the small boats that go out and come back in the day. This is the heart and soul of the ruling fishery at this point. Catch codfish. And if they can't catch codfish they really can't catch anything because the fish are swimming in a mix with some other species right. So that's a really a reduction on those species as well. Exactly so then we have a person appointed of scientists appointed by President Obama who comes in to says I'm changing the way this is no longer a small boat thing per se. It can be

big or it can be a global marketplace. We can turn this industry into a commodities market in which there can be some investment going on. So you have all of those pressures going to bear so now here we are New England where fishing the Gulf of Maine Cod is very important is being hit quite dramatically. So what does this mean how many people work in the fin fishing industry right now Richard Gaines of the Gloucester Daily Times. And what does this what has what has happened now. What is the impact of all of this coming together. OK I put a cheat sheet together because I was told that you were going to ask me these questions. Pulling the precise answers out to leave precise questions is not that easy. However give me a ballpark OK. What you are looking at now is as I said before from two hundred eight vessels working in 2010 we went down to one hundred sixty nine. From there we've

probably already cut another 20 percent and there may be another 20 percent so you can see by the time we get through with the cod allocation and the implications of that you'll have a small boat fisherman selling out or selling their little allocation to the bigger boats. And they have to because they can make it right now. OK. We do have some. Some hard numbers on the nature of the consolidation. OK consolidation is the goal. This is the purpose of of the policy according to the book according to according to Dr. Lubchenco. OK in answer to a written question by the Glasgow Daily Times and Dr. Lubchenco by the way is the head of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration now known as know why she is the head person who is who is in charge of oceans and atmosphere and she came to national prominence

during the Gulf oil spill. OK. The question was. What are what are what are your goals and the answer is quote Dr. Lubchenco says the recent analysis analysis suggests a significant fraction of the vessels will need to be removed. So the purpose of the policy is to consolidate and eliminate small votes and in turn a fishery that has been essentially horizontal in structure into one that is vertical in structure with a small number of powerful controlling interests that have replaced the small boat fleet that for 300 or 400 years. Which is why potential New England that's New England right. All right so what is this so our conversation going forward today is and what is the impact on New England. What does that mean how many jobs are lost. What is the impact on Gulf of mankind. What does it mean for

consumers why should we care and will be talking about all of that as we continue we're talking about the New England fishing industry. Can this historical business stay afloat. I miss federal regulations environmental re the realities and market demands. Is the fishing industry in New England doomed to follow the path of big farming. Next we hear from a small boat fisherman based in Plymouth people working in the fishing industry we want to hear from you. Are you a fisherman has your job changed over the past few years. How are these federal regulations and catch limits affecting you. Can you keep your business afloat. Call us at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 0 9 7 8 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. You're listening to WGBH Boston Public Radio. This program is on WGBH thanks to you.

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70 fishermen of both small and large boats we want to hear from you. Call us at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. I'm joined by Richard Gaines the fisheries reporter for the Gloucester Daily Times. And on the phone with us now is Steven Welsh a fisherman based out of Plymouth Massachusetts welcome Steven Welch. Thank you. Tell us about who you are how many others like you are there in the area that you work in Plymouth. Well there's one you know in 1994 that used to be 34 full time fisherman. Now there's Juan and that's me. So that's a huge difference. Yeah we've seen consolidation over the years. And you know the guys that were were left in it you know waiting for the you know the impulse control to take place and take effect which they did.

We're we're left out of the picture when we switched over to catch errors. So describe why cat shares are so devastating to small boat fishermen like yourself. They think took the qualifying years to catch years it's based on how much fish you caught between the ages of 96 to 2006. There are no years we had severe import controls on the social area and still way a bank to protect the last spawning biomass the cod fish that was left in the Gulf of Maine. So we would close the fishery for up to seven months of the year we had triplets on cotton you know 30 pounds 200 pounds 400 pounds and at the end it was 800 pounds. Meanwhile you know boats fishing in other areas of the ocean were allowed to 2000 pounds of COD. But the small boat traditional fishery in the South Shore was not able to access fish outside of the social area because of the size of the vessel. They didn't have big boats to go offshore and continue our sting fish so they could accumulate quota during the

qualifying years so when the quota system came into place. We're left with very small amounts of fish to actually go harvest once the stocks were rebuilt. So what now. These regulations are as we've said are going to come full force to catch limits on COD. May the 1st and as Richard gains as explained could be 20 percent could be 40 percent. And you don't know but at either end how does it impact you. Well in the end I mean I you know with catch years I took a 62 percent cut to begin with. Catchers you know it was what the deal catchers is that if you want to go but what if I want to go fishing I have to go buy fish from somebody else. Go catch it and then hope I make a profit on it. This is this is what they talk about economic efficiency. It's done the complete opposite for the small boat fisherman.

You cannot afford to go buy fish and then go catch it and pay for crew and insurance and the maintenance costs you know mortgages. So it's had a negative effect to catch the economic efficiency only comes into play when you have lodged vessels that are able to process at sea catch large amounts of fish and process process. And that's what we don't have in Waveland and that's what we really don't want to knowingly and and you know we're going to lose our traditional fisheries and our heritage and you know we're going to lose our access to waterfront property also you know dockage and Peter space and things like that. It's really it's really disturbing. I mean I started fishing out of Scituate I don't even notice that year anymore because it's so depressing. I move my boat to Plymouth for the only reason being that I want to maintain some type of a commercial presence on the mast. Now at the end of January a commercial fisheries Revolving Loan Fund was announced one million dollar loan for fishermen like yourself to try to equal the playing field so that you can have some

capital to buy shares does that help you as it is now that fishing is moving toward this commodity base. As Richard gains explain. Now you know it's it's a good faith based effort on the part of you know you know Division Marine Fisheries. But the reality is if I borrow the money I still have to pay it back. So you know for example take cod fish you know. We average we have to average at least a dollar to a dull £20 to turn a profit on a small scale fishing boat. We're buying cod fish right now for double a $15 £20 and then in the markets sometimes we see a dollar a day on the good days we see you know $3 but typically I think we average probably around a dollar ninety two to 10 for cod. Yeah. So we're really not able to turn a profit so it mean it's good. Also it also that allows you to do is to keep spinning your wheels. You know before catchers we didn't have

to purchase fish to go catch it. We went and caught it you know we had triplets of a hundred pounds and were able to go out and catch you know 800 pounds of cod and you know 15 or 20 minutes on a tow. We had to spend an hour looking for cod fish back in 2009 it was a long day because we rebuilt the cod fish stocks. STEPHEN Well stay with us. I want to take a call. I've got Gloucester fisherman on the line. Go ahead please you're on the Kelly Crossley Show WGBH eighty nine point seven. Hello. Oh yeah hi. One of those small last boat that probably no longer going to be able to keep on fish and if things continue the way they are. It's going to end up just a big bowl fishery like Stevens said. What how have you. Have you been as impacted as as Stephen Welch has described.

Oh absolutely Actually I I thought in kind of late in the game and I only got a couple years of my own history on my one and only permit that I own. So I took probably about a 90 percent cut and my allowable my allowable catch compared to what it was catching. So I had to reinvest under the new catch share system and now with a huge Cod cut coming down the pike in my sure whether or not I'm going to be able to hang in there. So you don't know that you'll be fishing this time next year. I really don't know. I mean that I'd like to think that there's a way I could make it work but honestly it doesn't look good. But it's just a shame. I guess one of the younger fisherman out there and if we don't somehow change measures so be no younger generation of fishermen that's for sure. What do you for people who are listening who don't fish we eat the fish but you know this is all new

information for us and we're trying to put it in the context of our everyday lives what do you want people listening on to understand why this is so important particularly in New England. Well it's it's it's just our heritage. It's it's sort of a tradition on the second general. Mission fishermen myself and you know not that I'd want my my son to be a third generation but I'd like them to have the option to be and if they're just taking away that option with it with these regulations it's not affordable for any average person make it into the business anymore they're turning it into a Wal-Mart on the water. It's just all the business and it's just it's really a sham. Thank you very much for your call I appreciate it so much. Steven Welch back to you and Richard Gaines because there's something I want to talk about with regard to these catch limits and that is there's a great dispute about whether or not the catch limits as described to

be best. In the interest of gulf of mankind for example are accurate and there are those including our own Barney Frank Congressman Barney Frank who have called and asked the secretary of commerce and also the head of NOA to hire an independent commission to review how they came up with the numbers for the catch limit So in other words let's say they they said you can only get 50 fish in. And they're estimating that 100 are out there. Some are saying that the numbers that they have are just wrong which again is first if you would respond to it now I'll come back to Stephen Welch. I think I was talking to Professor Brian Rothschild today at the University of Massachusetts Dartmouth those probably the most esteemed scientist who is not associated with the government. And we were talking about this exact question. And he said rather than describe it as a failed.

Some assessment by the science center I would describe it as an incomplete assessment. And he said it's very damaging economically and makes no sense environmentally to have assessments every three years that create a roller coaster of catch limits high and low. We're reversing a policy that was based on a three year old assessment by the same Science Center that said the COD was reviving beautifully. So now we have an assessment that says no it's crashing. And so you're changing policies and forcing fisherman into these enormous changes in their business plans and the problems really involve the lack of investment the lack of willingness by the government to put money into the science which is ultimately the foundation of the policies that are coming out of this agency.

I'm asking a pause there Richard Gaines of the Gloucester times because we have Congressman Massachusetts Congressman Barney Frank on the line and Congressman Frank is a long time advocate for fisherman's rights in Massachusetts he's in the 4th District of Massachusetts and that includes New Bedford where there are quite a bit of fisherman. Congressman Frank. Welcome. Thank you we can many I sure want to join in session now but I want to take a few minutes away from a Republican effort to make it impossible for the FCC to regulate the financial industry. We'll go back and fight that issues with to you. Well thank you so much I know your your time is limited so let's get right to it we were discussing your efforts you have written letters you have met with the secretary of commerce and the no administrator Jane Lubchenco to ask about an independent commission to re-evaluate the numbers that they've come up with for the catch limits. And why is this important. Because we are talking about the livelihood of a large

number of working people the economic. Prosperity of the community in which they work and by the way and I want to make sure my liberal friends understand this. Providing an online going inexpensive source of good healthy food. We tell people don't be fat. Eat healthy. Well drive up the cost of seafood and you are working directly against trying to make it easier for lower income people in particular to eat a healthy way. I am appalled we had this as you just heard Richard Gage explaining this drastic show in the assessment of the god. Senator John Kerry has been very strong in defense of the industry and its legitimate guns a great environmentalist. He asked the doctor with Janko to redo it and she refused. It's appalling to me. I've never seen it's goes beyond Europe. Monica does it almost to mean is almost despite it's inconceivable to me that they would

redo this. And I want to make the environmental point when I talk about irreversible damage to the air or to the order of the fishermen a great environmentalist. There was a legitimate dispute about how fast fish are reproducing and how many years it has to be done. This is a very arbitrary standard in the statute and it was Congress that put it there I try to change it I go it it has to be rebuilt to the maximum in 10 years. There's no magic 10 years if things are getting better and we're on the way you should be able to do 14 or 15 years. So I want to avoid terrible economic damage to hardworking people in a part of our state of already been hurt. And I want to continue the supply of fresh good seafood for nutrition. Why is there an effort to turn the fishing industry into a commodities market. Can you explain that. I think that the people in charge of fishing and I don't understand why they take this position but they're trying to restrict fishing. I

think it is a mistaken environmental view is if somehow there's an there's an opposition between environmental support and fishing fishermen a great environmentalist you know one of the strongest areas of support for stopping offshore oil drilling is from the fishing industry. The people in the fishing industry take the lead in saying please do not come to George's Bank and drill for oil because of the danger that would do to our natural resource and appreciate it. You have people who are hostile to fishing and I've heard them talk about this. And so. They figure if they were to consolidate the industry track you would be sure to downsize it when you have a large number of fairly independent people who are involved are going to be fighting for their rights. If you get a small number of the larger entities they're more easily manipulated the more easily a board off and you can reduce the total amount of fishing and I don't understand why that's your goal. Is this when then because we always have to ask the question who benefits.

So if the small boat fishermen particularly are hurt who benefits. Well a few larger entities would benefit and look funny the problem is the way in which it was done in the last bill the magazine acted called revision I did like the bell but we did succeed in saying if you're going to impose this new system where basically the big people can buy up the small people and I don't see why Democrats who all of a sudden supposed to be in favor of fewer big entities as opposed to a number of small ones. But it has to be with a referendum in the fishing industry. If you were to do the same it was then called individual transferable quotas and then and I think a very intellectually dishonest way they said OK we're not going to have these individual transferable quotas. We have something called catch shares which is virtually I done. Going practice to that. But they then were able to impose it without a referendum on the West Coast by the way I'm told that's popular fine and I'd be there an East Coast it's been very controversial. Now we confront a problem by the way because some people in good faith under the law as it was being

implemented went ahead and went forward so we now have sadly a divided fishery because some people took advantage of the new war some people did and I really blame the administration for really evading what Congress intended and introduce you to say I'm going to devise admission to the fishery. It was just announced at the end of January and one million dollar loan fund to help small boat fisherman sort of get in the game. But I was speaking with Stephen Welsh who's a small boat fishermen in Plymouth who's on the line with us. He said that doesn't really help him because he just gets more in debt he still got up. Yeah of course it's not enough you know that's that's a fig leaf. It's not just a figure even speculated that the worms have eaten homes and so May 1st these cash limit Reg regulations are in place. What's the fifth what's the future then because we're driving toward the east as you have

pointed out and Richard gains as well. You both say artificial deadlines and what we have to do is change first of all there's artificial 10 year limit by the way I as talked about can't go. What's the joke. Have occasion scientifically to say that the build up has to be within 10 years he said. There is no independent justification the only reason we've found that it's in the statute. Next question will you join us in amending the statute to provide flexibility. No. Which I did and I cannot understand why except for hostility she did appreciate it. She says that. So if we were able to get the 10 year tenure could be a go. But if you're making progress you can adjust it by the way our Canadian neighbors don't have that rule. And we just amended all laws because our fishermen increase near the Canadians were disadvantaged being under the 10 year limit when they can weren't. We've abolished the 10 year limit it's been over you know there's been no harm. So the most important thing that can be done now would be to remove that

arbitrary 10 year limit. The second is maybe almost equally important. Better risk. Yes Mitch We've had cases in the past when the fishermen have done better than the regulators. One of the things that has been sustaining New Bedford in particular has been the scalloped fishery. Fifteen years ago the administration under Bill Clinton was going to shut down the sculpture if you close it down or we were able to persuade then Secretary of Commerce Bill Daley that there was a lot more stomachs out there. He went ahead and gave a shit increase the environmentalist extremists sued him and they lost and we were right. Removing the tenure of rigidity is one thing and getting much better science is another. In the interim. How many jobs do we stand to lose as a result I don't know and you know I worry about these being self-fulfilling prophecy so I stay away from the bad news. All right thank you very much. Get back to the committee of course thank you very much Congressman my colleagues Brian and Rick you know this.

Thank you so very much Congressman Barney Frank from the 4th District of Massachusetts whose district includes New Bedford speaking about the new federal regulations which are harming New England fisherman we're going to continue the conversation we're talking about the New England fishery and the changes to the fishing industry that have put many areas fisherman's livelihood at stake. You can join the conversation at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 seventy 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. This is eighty nine point seven WGBH Boston Public Radio. WGBH programs exist because of you. And the Joan and James Vernon Cancer Center at Newton Wellesley hospital striving to provide patients with expert Cancer Care innovative services and treatment options information at N W H dot org slash cancer. And Greenberg Traurig an international law firm with offices in Boston and more than 30 other cities worldwide

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policy and market solutions. Protect the ocean and community based fisherman Stephen while just still holding on as well he's a fisherman down in Plymouth. You can join the conversation 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Right now I'm going to Dick in Mystic Connecticut go ahead please you're on the callee Crossley Show. Eighty nine point seven WGBH. Yeah hi kelly and Richard. Stephen everybody there in Cali thank you for for doing this show it's really precious to us. I'm a retired fisherman I own a 73 foot steel trawler a fish is at a point Judith Rhode Island. And I guess I'm trying to figure out what I could add to the conversation that hasn't already been said. Again I'm just grateful for this for this kind of a show usually. Usually when when fishermen are our prince fishing is

presented usually by somebody from the National Marine Fisheries Service or a scientist or or or somebody from a non non-government organization that's hostile to fishing so I don't know if these regulations affect you. Oh yeah that's what I'm getting to. I have my boat had previously had half of its income coming from ground. From. From Cod and yellowtail specifically and had I bought this particular boat in 2000 in late 2005 and we later up the most the 2006 doing re having it together see worthy of a qualification period started in in 2006 and I'm sorry it started in 96 96 6 and went to Dick to rush you but I got to get to some

of the guests. The bottom line is really the bottom line is that I didn't own the boat but that qualification period none of my fishing history was there in the ice and I thought the boat was. Didn't didn't. Didn't ground fish much you might have to squish stuff like that so I think allocation I got was about 10 percent of what we would normally catch. More evidence that this is just not the way to handle it. Yes no no I was actually very close to putting us out of business. Thank you so much for the call I appreciate it so much. I want to point out me as dory has just joined us the director of the north west Atlantic Marine Alliance also based in Gloucester to today the New England shrimp fishing season was announced to be ending tomorrow because the fishermen have reached the catch limit so it's right what we're talking about about these catch limits and what and what they mean. You've been looking at solutions and I'm interested in a couple of ones that you would like to see put in place one to

establish some quotas to reward owner operators that I interpreted to be small boats and to incentivize folks who would sell 100 percent of their quota which I think both things are very important. Does this have any chance of getting the attention of the head of nowhere. She's just said to Barney Frank I'm not interested if even if you tell me that these numbers are wrong. Well it may not interest her. The most important thing right now is that it interest the fishing industry and the public because ultimately this is a political process and people need to weigh in in this process for any of the recommendations to be adopted. The ideas that you put forward are ideas that are being forwarded by fisherman and we heard from fishermen so we are forwarding it sort of on their behalf and based on their recommendations through the policy making process by the regional policy making body called the New England Fishery Management Council. So until March 1st the public including fishermen and those who eat their Catch have the opportunity to write

comments and support these sort of concepts and these sort of solutions it's really the the ball is in our court. But unfortunately it doesn't have as much support from the wide range of the industry as it needs to because there are there are losers and winners in this and the cap share scheme of the world and so the winners don't want to see some of these solutions on the table. And interestingly enough these solutions are actually part of helping fulfill the promise that the Fisheries Service made after the catchier policy was adopted in 2000 2010 and implemented that they were going to fix the problems that they created with it and this is an opportunity to fix those problems. Consolidation is one of those problems losing the community basically it is one of those problems. And so here is our opportunity to actually do good on that promise and fix it. And just to clarify interrupter it doesn't necessarily just mean a small but it means that you go to you on the boat you work on and you don't become a sharecropper for someone else or you don't end up owning so much. So many

permits that you are such about the cost of sacking permits and or having so many boats that you don't control and you hire somebody else to go do it as sort of absentee landlords and a lot of analogies we can use. So owner operator means you on the boat you own the permit. You fish it. Stephen Welch let me get back to you because there's a question I hope you can clarify for us. What's the real difference between a large fishing boat has just said that owner operator doesn't necessarily mean you're sharecropping and a small fishing boat like yours. Help us understand that. But I like you know I was formally I guess a large loner and must know I have a smaller vessel. Typically a boat that can stand for an extended period time for five to seven days or week is. So we were for it was an offshore boat an intro boat typically goes out for you know 12 to 36 hours. There are roughly you know 50 feet under and larger boats I guess people in the industry would say are 70 feet above or something like that.

OK. And I mean there's there's a place you know there's something about the ocean that is not part of the debate right now the conversation right now is that the scale of fishing should match the scale of the environment. And often what we see and what has happened with catch shares this policy that's been adopted since to since 2010 is that it has taken away the ability of the offshore boats to stay where the scale of the environment can handle them. And so they've come in short of fish because there is no incentive for them to go offshore anymore why. Why do it when you've got you know you're caught on your hand you can fish it anywhere you want. But the ocean is made up of small discrete ecosystems and when you suddenly introduce large capacity in those discrete areas there's going to be a shift in that ecosystem. So people who say catch errors are just you know consolidating a dead fish doesn't care how it's killed whether it's a big boat or a small boat that ocean ecosystem does care. The impact of large capacity being introduced to areas that it has never been before has ecological consequences. It also has economic consequences it has social consequences this hot food system consequences like

Congressman Frank mentioned. But we forget that those scales of operation and matching them to the scale of fishing is really an ecological issue that needs to be part of fisheries management. And it isn't today. Stephen Welsh Plymouth fisherman What have you heard since we moved around the conversation past Barney Frank that you just want to make a comment to that you want to respond to. Well I think Barney Frank brought up a great point of the 10 year timeline in essence the new reauthorization of mag and said we had to rebuild 18 species of fish that we catch knowing what we have to rebuild to past historical high levels. All the same time. So we went back 40 years and in that early 60s they picked the highest biomass we had a concert OK had a cast to be. In the mid 70s the codfish biomass was a huge mistake a codfish asked to be here they went back 80 40 years and picked the highest biomass levels all the session so they all have to be there all the same time. If you not to be overfishing and you have 10 years to do it this is never even been achieved when they started doing stock

assessments. It's it's it's we have to reauthorize Magnus and it's nobody's fault it's not the big boats fault it's not the scientists fault it's the it's it's what happened Congress got to be imprudent to pass in this law and it's not right and it's not sustainable for the industry or for the ocean not fact it's junk science. Thanks David. I think what Stephen is talking about is a problem that many environmentalists have also brought up which is fisheries management that doesn't recognise that if there's an ecosystem out there and you're managing fisheries in silos you're managing this as if it didn't exist without stock and that is one of the failures of fisheries management. And it's something that we can fix it if the motivation is there. But unfortunately once you start creating commodities out a single species of fish then you want to be continuing to look at them that way because suddenly you're looking at you know the commodities market wants to know how to protect Cod even if it means to ignore everything else that cod swims and so to take a step back and say takes an ecosystem to save the cod it takes an ecosystem to save the fish and really to start looking at the marine ecosystem in

its entirety and to recognize like I was saying earlier that each ecosystem within the Gulf of Maine requires a unique can't just like you know school students here in the Brighton area might nick wire something different than students in New York City would the same population dynamic in the ocean and those are the issues that Magnussen currently doesn't address that it needs to. That's my guess. Nias DURIE Richard against the odds is raised that Barney Frank is frustrated. Seems like this is a big political issue. Well it it's an amazing problem because it came into being in part because Congress was bamboozled the Magnusson realize there's a sheen was done in a lame duck session with train changing and president. But worse than that. Dr. Lubchenco who was a MacArthur Award winning scientist a she's got more things on her resume than anybody could ever count well-credentialed wrote in a.a. OK. She writes a paper that says

this is what we want to do. This is what President Obama should do. We want to catch errors in every possible fishery as soon as possible. The paper was written during the transition called Oceans of abundance. However President Obama says I'll make you the head of know and you can do it. But somehow in her confirmation hearings she never ever mentions what her plans are. Catch errors are not introduced. And so there is this dishonesty about what they're doing and how they're doing it. If this is such a great program then and if you've written a story a paper about it then say to your senator come for a con for conferees. This is what I want to do. Let's discuss this I want to sell this to you. But it was brought in the back door. And there was discussion earlier about the lack of a referendum. There's supposed to be a referendum in the fishery for transitions like this because of

the certainty that it will dispossess a number of participants. And so there was an amendment put into Madison saying if you're going to do this in a way Glenn you have to have a referendum. But the way the government did it was they changed a couple of commas here and they said No longer is. Does this qualify for the referendum. So we're sitting here with a catastrophe a political catastrophe where we have bipartisan congressional opposition to President Obama and his Oceans Policy. You have people being dispossessed. You have a fishery that's in a downward spiral. You have a commodities market that is being ripe for. Ownership by people who have nothing to do with the communities as we've discussed here today and it was done with palpable dishonesty. And so it's a catastrophe that the public really needs to know about.

And in the process we haven't save the fish I think that's the really important thing too to note the catch share issue with fairness to the current administration started over 20 years ago this idea of a modest size commodifying fisheries started way before John entered the picture of the new administration. And to me it was introduced to address a false problem that we have too many boats because as catch shares have been implemented we haven't gotten rid of the amount of fish that those boats are catching they've simply been consolidated into fewer boats so they can logical impact that's continued catcher's around the around the world that have been evaluated have failed to reach their ecological objectives. They have succeeded in reaching their consolidation objective. And for me my bet is they will be part of the conversation about their e farmers right now because that's what we're facing in the fishing industry is we're seeing the elimination of the people who could have the smallest footprint in the marine environment and have the biggest benefit to our communities to our economies and to our food system. For those who

are looking at fish as dollar bills floating in the bottom of the ocean it's commodities. And we're going to essentially make it the most efficient economically efficient fleet at the cost of not only the fish but all the all the ripple effects that we have already identified the economy the community the society and our food system so their farmers are facing this right now there is a dramatic reduction in dairy farmers and an increase in the impact of dairy farming on our land based environment and I think we're going to see the same thing as we're seeing around the world happen as catch shares here continue to move forward and hopefully we can have those fixes into place both in policy and also in market by making sure whatever amount of fish that is being caught that is being allowed to be caught by scientists is caught by the fleet that has the smallest ecological footprint. They're getting a fair price for it. So they're not demanding volume any more. That is another paradigm that needs to be broken. We measure success based on how much fish one person is caught not based on its greater benefit to the nation.

Stephen Welch because you are the fisherman in this conversation you get the last 30 seconds. Yes pretty much sums it up pretty good right there. We are you know another important fact for everyone fishing job their sticks on land. There's an economic slack factor to the multiplying factor for every $1 harvesting from the ocean it translates to $67 on land. Small boats employ a lot more people than the logic. Corporate boat we are more sustainable we support our communities and we bring in a fresher product. Stephen Welsh I hope I'm eating your fish in the next coming years. I really hope you would enjoy it I don't think it's right I really appreciate your participation today. We've been talking about the federal regulations and catch limits that are drastically impacting the Massachusetts and New England fishing industry. You just heard Stephen Welsh he's a Plymouth fisherman. I've been joined by veteran reporter Richard gains since 2002. He's been a reporter for the Gloucester Daily Times where he has headed the National Fisheries desk for four years.

Also with me was Nia as Dori the coordinating director of the Northwest Atlantis Marine alliance. Thank you thank you. You can keep on top of the Calla Crossley Show at WGBH dot org slash Calla Crossley follow us on Twitter or become a fan of the Calla Crossley Show on Facebook where production WGBH Boston Public Radio.