WGBH Radio; The Callie Crossley Show

I'm Cally cross-legged. This is the Cali Crossley Show jazz it's African American music. The music of the American experience and music that actually has some deep roots here at home originating in New Orleans and thriving in New York. The swinging snap crackle and pop of jazz has made an enduring Mark in Boston from the Savoy to Storyville its venue as have been the stomping grounds for fans and the stomping grounds for jazz Giants and homegrown heroes. In his new book Dick Baka writes about Boston's jazz scene between the late 1930s and early 1960s. It was an era when prohibition was long forgotten big bands were packing the dance halls and local legends like George Wein and father Norman O'Connor also known as the Jazz priest were making an indelible mark on the city's jazz scene. Up next the Boston jazz Chronicles its nightlife places and faces. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi saying consumers appear to be pulling

back again suggested in the two tenths of a percent slide in retail sales last month. NPR's John it's he reports it's the second straight month of declines in addition to reporting a drop in retail sales in May. The Commerce Department revised sales in April from a slight gain to a decline of two tenths of a percent. Part of the reason for that decline is positive. A drop in the price of gasoline. But even when that is factored out prices rose only modestly in May. The restraint by consumers many burdened by joblessness and paltry pay increases doesn't bode well for economic growth. However some of the slack demand in April and May could be payback for purchases during the warm winter weather when consumers move forward their home improvement projects and apparel purchases. A separate report showed stockpiles of goods at U.S. businesses increasing. John it's t NPR News Washington. Mitt Romney's describing the economic rebound in the U.S. as tepid hours after the government released its economic reports. The GOP presumptive presidential nominee

addressed some of the country's most powerful CEO has gathered in the Washington D.C. area. He pledged to undo the Obama administration's policies. I will halt all the Obama era regulations and carry out a review of those regulations and get rid of those that are not meaningful or that cost jobs in this country. I'm also going to put in place a policy that no agency of government can add regulations without removing the equal and opposite regulations when I say opposite opposite in terms of cost. JP Morgan Chase CEO Jamie Diamond meanwhile is urging Congress to avoid what he calls a fiscal cliff by extending tax cuts before they expire at the end of the year. He was on Capitol Hill answering questions about his bank's 2 billion dollar trading loss. More reports of a military assault are emerging from Syria today this time from the southern city of Daraa. NPR's Deborah Amos reports from Damascus. The confrontation is unrelenting. Underscoring the U.N. officials claim yesterday that Syria is now in the grip of civil war. When the head of U.N. peacekeeping missions openly said Syria was in a state of

civil war the Syrian government demanded clarifications from the head of mission on the ground. The regime insists it's fighting terrorists funded from abroad. Activists rejected the claim too. They say the army is suppressing a peaceful uprising. The casualty count shows a more complex picture. Dozens of civilians died in army shelling according to activists on the government side. Thirty six military funerals in one day. And the assassination of a former sports official. The U.N. says there is a shift in rebel tactics which coincided with widespread reports of weapons shipments reaching rebel groups. Deborah Amos NPR News Damascus. At last check on Wall Street the Dow is up four points to twelve thousand five hundred seventy eight. This is NPR. Good afternoon from the WGBH radio newsroom in Boston I'm Christina Quinn with some local stories we're following. The state's top elections official wants a stronger system of monitoring the hefty sums of cash likely to be spent on influencing future local casino votes. Secretary of State

William Galvin urged a legislative panel today to support a bill that would require all campaign expenditures made on casino referendums to be reported to the state office of campaign and political finance. Currently spending on local ballot issues must only be reported to the clerk's office in that community. The Vatican has given the go ahead to a merger between Saints Medical Center in LOL AND LOL General Hospital. The approval from Rome came on the condition that the main st. campus will retain its Roman Catholic identity and family planning and other women's reproductive health services will be handled at the local general campus. Officials at both hospitals say they expect a final closing by the end of the month. The Boston University student who survived a deadly crash in New Zealand killed three classmates is returning to Massachusetts Meg Terrio and her parents took a medical flight that was expected to arrive in Boston today. The 21 year old Salisbury woman underwent surgery after suffering severe brain trauma from the May 12 crash. The bew students are on their way to a hike last month when a van crash killed three of them. The student who was pleading who was driving rather pleaded guilty to seven counts of careless driving causing injury or death in New

Zealand today and was banned from driving in that country. In sports the Red Sox wrap up their three game series against the Marlins tonight with Felix Doubront on the mound and showers throughout the forecast throughout the afternoon and the weather forecast with areas of fog with a near steady temperature in the mid 60s tonight we will see Cloudy With A Chance of showers and patchy drizzle. Overnight lows in the upper 50s and Thursday mostly sunny highs around 70 Friday also looks good sunny skies highs in the lower 70s right now 64 degrees outside of our Brighton studios with a light rain 65 in Worcester with overcast conditions and 64 in Providence with light rain Support for NPR comes from Barnes and Noble maker of Nook Simple touch with glow light designed for reading with the lights on or off. Available at Barnes Noble stores or dot com. Thanks. Thank. You. Good afternoon I'm Kalee Crossley and we're listening to Boston jazz. That's what can I say after I say I'm sorry 1947 jazz piece performed by

Boston's Cristo tone label more or recorded on that label. Dick Bakker wrote this book the book on this literally He's the author of The Boston jazz Chronicles faces places and nightlife one thousand thirty seven to nine hundred sixty two. Tell us all about that piece and why it's just such a great example of Boston's vibrancy in jazz. 1047 was an interesting year in Boston it was an interesting year. Throughout jazz. RAY BORDA was a trumpet player who had worked with a lot of famous name Bandstand cantons primarily. And he organized this band after the war and this was a bad time to organize a big band Big Bands were failing they were falling apart right and left you couldn't afford to run and and it was a hard hard way to make a living. But he put this band together a very well rehearsed well drilled well practiced band. And. They made this series of records for this little label in Boston called Crystal tome and I

thought they were wonderful records which have disappeared as much of Boston jazz has. This is from a 78 as a matter of fact you know I want to tell people what a 78 it is and it is a 10 inch shellacked record with a little hole in the center that plays at 78 revolutions per minute. They were the way that music was sold and purchased in to the early 1950s. One of the things that you say in your book and you make clear that the story of jazz is really a story of America and you know specifically what's happening in Boston as well. So a little bit of what was going on in the country that helped to create Boston's jazz scene if you would Dick fucka. The thing that really distinguishes Boston for me in it as opposed to the rest of the country is the G.I. Bill. I think that it's a fascinating thing that jazz was coming off a period of time where it was America's popular music the swing era and the big band

era and that is as close as Jazz comes to being America's popular music. When Jazz becomes more complex starting with bebop music when it becomes more complex it starts losing its listeners they want a lot simpler music and easier music. And so they wanted to you know they want to dance. But the G.I. Bill period there were many many musicians who were flocking to Boston to take advantage of the G.I. Bill and they were very famous names Gigi Grice and Sam Rivers and various others who. Combined with the local musicians to form a very powerful scene. And I think that is something I don't see that in other cities as much. The G.I. Bill influence because Boston can out school anybody and could in those days too. So I see that as being a real distinguishing characteristic of what made Boston Boston Okay. The dean of Boston's jazz scene WGBH his own Eric Jackson is also with us here

in Studio 3. Eric one of the things that Dick does so beautifully in his book is identify some of the folks the faces of people who were so important one of those was Sabby Lewis I want to play a little clip of Sabby Lewis orchestra and then come back and have you talk about his importance in the Boston jazz scene. OK. OK so that's called Boston bounce. Eric and I can hear the bounce in it. It's also from a 78 if you can hear that sort of his'n scratcher and that from that album. Who is Sammy Lewis and why was he so important. Well first why shouldn't we have a recording that Sabby made in one of the last two years of his life here as a live performance on our show so he was still playing right up until the time that he passed away. And also sadly was the first African-American radio announcer in the city of Boston.

So that was sometime in the 1950s. And he was on the station that would become WIOD as a radio announcer to use a megaphone but savvy just put together. I believe was a nine piece band to get things started and the band grew into a larger unit from there. He became friends with a man named Dean Earl who was wonderful piano player here in the area and they sort of swap arrangements and then sadly his band became the kind of band that had a reputation so that all of the shit they all but many of the wonderful musicians who lived here in Boston wanted to be a part of that band. He also was able to record and receive some sort of national success in the 1040s which actually took him to New York for a short period of time and then he came back here to Boston after that part of it was

that he was able to achieve a measure of national success. With his band too. I know lots of folks want to get in on this conversation and they can at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. We have the experts here if you have a question about a musician about a jazz club about an urban jazz myth that needs some fact checking. We're at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8 you can write to our Facebook page or send me a tweet at Kelly cross-link and I am here with Dick vaca who wrote the book Boston jazz Chronicles faces places and nightlife one thousand thirty seven thousand nine hundred sixty two and the dean of Boston's jazz scene WGBH is own Eric Jackson. Eric back to you one of the things that Dick makes clear in his book which I guess makes sense if you think about it there were three things he says that really helped to boost that jazz scene during the period of time that he chronicles music promotors Boston as a center for music

education and the proximity to New York. And I wonder if you talk about music promoters. Well of course you can always start off just by mentioning the name George Wein who of course became a teacher. But I think he starts off and I have never heard this guy's name sponsor I may pronounce it correctly incorrectly. This is shipments the shipments who are actually even as early as the 1920s. Known a number of concert halls I guess you'd call them and promoted big bands Duke Ellington's band was extremely popular in New England in the one thousand twenty as partially because the ribbons had a circuit of their own dance halls or concert halls where they would bring Duke in and you didn't have to travel long distances you could play in Boston and then play in Salem say tomorrow night and it will all be part of the same circuit so it wasn't the you know play here and then drive 300 miles to your next gig.

So it was a popular circuit for musicians to be on so I'd say you have Shipman you've got George Wein they would certainly be two major movers when it comes to promoting this music in the area and I think even down to that today we can overlook the. The influence Fred Taylor who has certainly been active in the business since I guess the early 50s when he recorded Dave Brubeck. And since then of course he own the old jazz workshop. He books for Scholars he's booked most of the major jazz festivals in the northeast at one time or the other so that he's obviously a major powerhouse when it comes to booking music in the. The good thing a positive thing I'd say about Frater another positive thing I'd say about Fred is that most of the musicians that I know like for it let's go it's important Yeah it is important that is important because you know I want to play it for folks here.

I just want to highlight George Wayne's name again because some people may know that he is connected to the Newport Jazz Festival that that was you know his idea and founding of that sort of grew out of his interests I guess from promoting all these jazz artists during this period of time when Boston was most vibrant. He was the founder of that festival in 1954 and he had. It's hard to describe the number of activities that George Wein had going on in the 1980s. It's hard to say that the Newport Jazz Festival was just another pretty face for him but that's what it was. He was a newspaper columnist he had a weekly column in The Boston Herald. He had a television show for a short time in 1058. He was a disc jockey and one of the AM stations from 1056 until he left town in 1960. He started an outdoor music festival in Ipswich a summer concert series. He was an instructor at Boston University instructing in jazz history and he had he had an activity he had two clubs he had a club. He had Storyville his most famous

club the one that's on the cover of the book and he had a second club down in the basement called mahogany hall which was playing strictly Dixieland type music. So he had all these different things going on and you can't He was the man of the I call him The Man of the decade from the 1950s. He was the most important figure in Boston jazz in the 1950s as Sabby Lewis had been the most important figure in the 1940s. All right let's play a little bit more music. This is Autumn in New York 1949 when I get you guys to respond to it. So the piece that a lot of people may recognize the tune. What about the song. Is distinctive more important. Either one dick or Charlie Marianna I think. And who's playing the alto saxophone. OK. From

the Hyde Park Mariano. He was a boston. He was born in Boston his family lived in Hyde Park. He went he was very influenced by the great. Boston alpha player Johnny Hodges the fellow who played with Duke Ellington for so many years in World War Two. He he Mariano spent time in an air force an army air force band out in California. He heard Charlie Parker for the first time and decided that bebop was something he needed to do. So when you listen to Autumn in New York you can still hear the influence of Johnny Hodges but you can also hear the calming influence of Charlie Parker on Charlie Marianna is playing and I think Marciano is one of the most influential musicians that ever called the City Hall. You're also sort of changed his music I believe you said Berkeley till the late 60s or early 70s. And then he after that he spent a lot of time in Europe where his music took a very different direction. I think when it went to Europe a lot of his

uses a lot of electronics around him like electric keyboards even just sort of electric sounds a little if you called keyboards are what they are. But his music became very different during his days in Europe I remember just in the early 70s I think it was he put out an album with a group called us MOSIS. And I was sort of shocked this. This is Charlie Mariano with us most is this sounds very different from what I was expecting from Charlie Mariama. So he was a man that could actually you know pick up what was happening in the air and incorporate it into his music. He did he definitely did he did. Did I think I think that was part of what a lot of people liked about him although as with anybody who makes a change in their music there are also some people sit on the sidelines and mumble and say we should go back to the old stuff. I probably am. One of those. We're talking about jazz about Boston jazz with Eric Jackson host of jazz on WGBH with

Eric Jackson and Dick vaca the author of The Boston jazz Chronicles which focuses on the late 1930s through the early 1960s here in Boston. Join the conversation at 8 7 7 3 0 one hundred seventy eight 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Here are two of the best jazz experts right here in Studio 3. Call if you want to know what happened to one of your favorite jazz clubs. Call if you want to know whatever happened to those great local jazz combos. 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 1 7 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. And. Then you could write to our Facebook page or send us a tweet at Kalak Crosley. This is WGBH. The. WGBH programs exist because of you and one sim card mobile voice

text and data service for budget conscious international travelers. One sim card lets you manage the expense of using your cell phone while traveling in over 200 countries without any commitments online at one sim card dot com and direct Tire and Auto Service. Well I'm convinced that the GBH is like a cult. Barry Steinberg president WGBH listeners are passionate about the station. A lot of our clients come in and thank us for sponsoring WGBH. They appreciate the fact that we've acknowledged the importance of the BGH the process and they support us because we split station. That's a truth to learn more visit at WGBH dot org slash sponsorship on Radiolab. You'll hear a lot of this. No this whole notion is totally wrong. Really. But I thought no no no wait a minute wait. Not but Einstein tells to me just say cheese. Come on. But you'll also hear a lot of this. Yes I think that's absolutely right. That's right that's the ticket tune into Radiolab to grapple with and sometimes understand the world's

mysteries. Saturday afternoon at two here on WGBH radio support WGBH right now and you'll automatically be entered to win a trip to England. Make an online gift a new and a guest could be going to visit high clear Castle referred to on Masterpiece simply as Downton Abbey prize includes round trip airfare from Lufthansa for an hour each day at the vineyard at Spa cross and a private tour of Highclere Castle led by the lady of the house Fiona Countess of Carnarvon for a chance to win visit WGBH dot org. Great question and it's a great question and it's a great question. It's a great question. Rick great question and fresh air you'll hear unexpected questions and unexpected answers this afternoon to toot your own eighty nine point seven WGBH. Welcome back to the Calla Crossley Show we're listening to Boston jazz. This is bluegrass

performed by the herb Pomeroy orchestra. We have Boston jazz experts here in Studio 3. Dick Baca is the author of The Boston jazz Chronicles and WGBH is own Eric Jackson the dean of the Boston jazz scene is also with us. Join us at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Do you remember from the Boston jazz scene when you want to know about give us a call. We're 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8 7 7 3 0 1 eighty nine seventy. You can write to our Facebook page or send me a tweet at Kelly Crossley. Now before we paused we were talking about the kind of innovative. Incorporation if you will of a Charlie Marianna who listened and moved around to different places and and incorporated that in his music. And I got a sense dick from your book that overall Boston was kind of an incubator for experimentation among jazz musicians during this time. Could you speak about that. That's that's a good point. It was an incubator as I said a little earlier

that late 40s period where many many people were coming to Boston they were all coming and they were all bringing ideas and they were all bringing new ideas. It's when you compare the Boston jazz scene to other northern cities like Chicago's or Detroit's one thing is very apparent. Boston's black population where jazz was nurtured was much smaller then populations in Detroit or Cleveland or Chicago. And there were enough good musicians here to start and nurture a jazz scene. But they really couldn't build it. It really couldn't grow. There just wasn't enough people power. When the G.I. bill people started arriving in 46 47 48 it really provided the critical mass. And that's when an explosion happened and that's when the incubator happened. So we talked about the Ray Borden band at the beginning of the show that band Nat Pierce took that

band over and it became very famous That was an incubator this is a band that had 10 people in it who went on to very long careers. There was a band completely forgotten now started by a guy named Jimmy Martin which had another 10 12 people who went on to very long careers in jazz. So if you're talking about incubators you have those two bands alone and the number of names that cycle through these bands is very impressive and then we get to her palm which was the culmination of all of it in the early 50s and that was a serious incubator band. This was really before he became you know the Berkeley professor that a lot of people know him for a member of for. Let's take a call. Fran from Newport. Go ahead please you're on the callee Crosley show. Eighty nine point seven. Yeah I went to the Allen shop boy created turned it back to being the greatest. An instructor in the history of jazz. And all those people that came after you know

Tony Williams and all the great jazz drummers. When does he show up on this. You'll be happy to know that the guy has a lot about Alan Dawson in this book but I'm to let Eric Jackson speak to Alan Dawson and his place in history in Boston jazz history. Well I was just actually going over Dick's book yesterday too and he shows Allen showing in the late 1940s and starts playing there in the 40s. I think one of the things that is important about Allen is that he stayed in Boston I mean did go out on the road but he stayed here. A lot of musicians want to go out on the road and that's what they want to do. Allen was a guy who wanted to stay in Boston and so he was on the faculty of Berkeley and he did teach so many people from that position. There are a lot of people who you know and in fact is probably one of the one of my pet peeves is that there are a number of people who say oh yeah he's improved Boston Oh he's a local

guy and they mean that in some sort of demeaning way right. Yeah yeah. And to me Alan was a world class musician who happened to live I think in West Medford. And yet he was able to teach so many people about this massacre from Boston such an influential player. Incidentally I remember walking into a club once with Miles Davis and Alan Dawson was on the bandstand and Miles first question to me was who stand you Miles his voice. I said Miles that's Alan Dawson. Well to your point I've got a piece here with featuring Ellen Dawson So why don't we take a listen to it because to Fran's question he came on the scene late and this is from 1058 from the Alveda trio gypsy in my soul.

Gypsy in my soul. Tom. Dick while we're listening to this Alan Dawson was on the Berkeley faculty is at this time of the birth of this recording. He was only he was one of a number of I should say of Boston jazz musicians who joined the faculty at Berkeley over a very short period of time.

1955 is when Palmer I went to Berkeley 1957 race a.z who's still playing piano around Boston and join the faculty in 57 he's still in Berkeley. Alan Dawson joined faculty in 57. And then the list went on from there so there's another incubator for you is the Berkeley School and Alan is I can only second what what Eric just said he played with every influential band leader in the city of Boston starting with savvy Louis she was a key member of savvy early 50s bands he played with Palmer and he played with Jimmy Tyler who's another name that will probably get to. So he was a very influential drummer and he he is just one of a number of very very good drummers that can call the City home. OK let's take a call. Len from Hancock New Hampshire Go ahead please you're on the callee Crossley Show went up last year Kelly. Thanks for taking the call. I wonder if Eric or your other guest know what ever. It became the Brad Ball Room I think it was on

Tremont Street I saw Miles there dueling with Mike Stern who was playing guitar more like Jimi Hendrix and he played these days. But anyway it was a fable. What happened. Well you know Dick's book is all about these clubs so go ahead. The Bradford ballroom is of course a part of the Bradford Hotel which is I don't know which chain hotel it now is but it's it's across the street from the Wang Center on Tremont Street downtown and they had numerous clubs they had clubs in the basement nightclubs in the basement they had dancing under the stars in the warm weather on the roof and they had the ballroom which was when the ballroom era ended. The Bradford ballroom was the largest place you could have music in the city of Boston. And they don't have music there anymore I'm sorry to say it is now given over completely to corporate events conferences and seminars and so forth. That's sacrilegious considering who was there on stage and doing

so fantastically well. Well thanks for the answer. I'm not happy with it but I think you know it. Thank you so much for the call for Lynn. Well some of that goes back to what I said about Fred Taylor to Fred Taylor's relationship with Miles Davis in particular he was and I said musicians were friends with Rick miles and Fred were close friends. And Fred was able to get miles to perform at times when no one else could get him to bring Taylor to promote. Yeah and so he was the one who was responsible for Miles playing there at the Bradford ballroom Yes I was there and I heard those kind of you know sort of letter. You're listening to eighty nine point seven WGBH an online at WGBH dot org I'm Kelly Crossley. We're talking about Boston's jazz history with WGBH is Eric Jackson and Dick Bucca author of The Boston jazz Chronicles. We have a tweet Gretchen wants to know can you talk about Jimmy McHugh from J.P. a Boston

born legend. Both people in the studio here you'll be happy you know Gretchen are smiling. Eric and Dick you want to start on Jimmy McHugh was born in Jamaica Plain and I think 1893 and he was a song plugger in the Irving Berlin organization his job was to take sheet music and go to any place any place where music was being played so he played in ballparks and restaurants and fairs and festivals. There was no radio. There were no movies the only way you could pitch a song was to sit down at a piano and play it. And that's what the Q Did he was a plugger for Irving Berlin. He was an office boy at the Boston opera house the old one on Huntington Avenue and so he used to run errands for Caruso and Toscanini and the Greats in the opera world and they came through town. In about one thousand twenty he went to New York City and he

discovered Duke Ellington's orchestra of course Duke Ellington had been playing but Jimmy McHugh was writing reviews for the Cotton Club and he brought Ellington's band into the club. And from there he went off to write some 500 songs on the sunny side of the story exactly like you. Don't blame me. Let's get lost. Songs and songs and songs and he continued to write songs up until the time of his death in 1069 in Beverly Hills California. So the guy wrote on the sunny side of the street Eric was from JP. Well you know I just want to make it clear to the audience that I wrote this on the back of Dick's book. I said this is the book we've been waiting for so I yield to Dick when it comes to being an expert about this topic. It was a subject that was dear to me but I can't say that I knew a lot about this. The Boston

jazz scene the history going back through those years. And so I really was very happy when Dick tackled this topic and put out a wonderful book to cover this topic a lot of this. The information that Dick has in this book I did know also you know this is a this book is alerting you that no matter what age 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8 7 7 3 0 want to 970 Khalid and talk to both Eric Jackson dean of the Boston jazzing who confesses that he yields to dig on details about the Boston jazz history and Dick Vaca is in the studio with us. So one thing I want to get on the table because there's a lot of discussion about this and I think it speaks to the underpinning of your book which is why we don't know a lot about this and think of Boston as a jazz city. You make the point that there was no sound no Boston jazz sound because every style was played here could you both talk to that a little bit.

There was. I asked specifically I asked a lot of the people I interviewed was there a Boston sound and they all said no not really. There was it was very good modern jazz and it was very well played and it was especially well written and well arranged this was a town that was really really turning out good arrangers and writers but it but it was not anything that really stands out. I think that Boston is one of a number of cities that suffers in comparison to New York City which is the jazz capital of the world. And New Orleans which everyone credits as being whether it's right or wrong it's credited with being the birthplace of jazz. So every city suffers in comparison to those cities. You know there are some key is the story of jazz is jazz starts in New Orleans and it goes up the river to Chicago and it gets to Kansas City and then it goes to New York and Memphis but I'm just saying can't go on for a minute this guy won. A few people stop you know that's OK.

And but there is there is really no oxygen in the room for the other cities that have jazz stories and they all do Baltimore and Detroit Detroit story is just as good as just as long as Boston. So I think that's part of the problem is that there's just. No no attention given to any place that isn't New York and or so when we talk about styles of jazz I think that confuses people. You know I all I can say is Big Band and bebop that's about all I know in my vocabulary. But there are many styles I generally say that certainly through the 1960s certainly through 1950 there's probably at least a style a decade and then in the 50s and 60s it probably increases their probably even more styles you could you could say. In the 1920s you have the what we might call New Orleans Jazz and then we have the transformation with what some might call Chicago Jazz the emphasis on the world and jazz is more of a collective

improvisation playing from the ensemble. The Chicago Jazz there to emphasis goes more on to the soloist in the 30s. These these are rough borders that I'm dealing with in the 30s. We find more of what we call swing music and the big bands are associated with the 30s in the 40s. We might say that we see the coming bebop and at the end of the 40s we find cool jazz jazz which really takes off in the 50s. Also in the 50s you get what was known as Hard Bop. You get the emergence of modal jazz. You get the emergence of so-called avant garde or for these all come up in the 60s in the 70s you probably all of those most of those forms are still considered to continue that way they were active in the 50s and 60s so during the period of time of Dick's book there's a lot of different styles as you've articulated and everybody's played everything

else so Boston didn't come out with like this is the town for Bebop they came out with well there's bebop and there's they have stuff to do. But somebody said something to me once years ago I was asked to write an article on Boston jazz for Buster magazine and I interviewed below and one of the things he talked to me about was how we can overlook Boston because although we know of these people who left Boston but they were trained here in Boston they contributed to the Boston scene and then went on. But we still have an ongoing jazz scene here in Boston. I think they're used with nurturing. We had a scene. We have a scene that nurtures even if you can move on. There are people here you learn from people who you play with and that's so important to the music you know. Let's listen to another piece this is Serge Shall off sextet from the. The album Boston blow up

in 155 is pieces body and soul. They. Really Are. Long. Oh. Oh oh. Her. Room. This is so smooth. It's really his mother was a very well known piano. Instructors in the right word to use Madam Shoma and were a lot of people even even jazz musicians study with Madame Shiloh. Unfortunately he had his problems as a number of musicians did with heroin and they affected his career

and you know there. Was. A lot of people who work with him. In Boston dick go on took something from him and went on to do bigger and better things. He influenced just about every baritone player that came after the 50s whether they were in Boston or anywhere else he was really the first baritone saxophone player who was able to master. Bebop on the Big Horn. It was a very difficult thing to do. So he influences a lot of baritone players in terms of Boston he hired quite a few young musicians and worked with them and took them on the road. Eric mentioned his problem with narcotics and he committed himself to Bridgewater State Hospital and he was there for quite some time. And when he came out he was clean and he organized new bands he recorded this particular Boston blowup record and another one after that. But just when things were looking very sunny for him he got cancer

and it didn't take very long for it to kill him he died in 1957. But he was an enormously influential player with Woody Harmon and with other big bands before that so. So he was really a transitional character who went from the height of the big band swing era into the bebop era and even beyond a little bit. And as you heard he plays a lovely ballad. All right well we've got much more to talk about Emre taking your calls when after this pause we're talking about the Boston jazz scene with the focus on the late 1930s through the early 60s. Boston jazz historian Dick Vaca is here he was just speaking. He's the author of The Boston jazz Chronicles and WGBH is own Eric Jackson is also with us. Join the conversation at 8 7 7 3 0 1 0 8 0 9 7 8 8 7 7 3 0 1. Eighty nine seventy. Oh just go. There's a Boston jazz musician. Really will find that out. We come back you're listening to WGBH Boston Public Radio. This program is made possible thanks to you and Harvard Vanguard Medical Associates

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Danvers native dict words ic on piano in this 1955 recording. Joining me to talk about Boston's jazz history are Dick Baka author of The Boston jazz Chronicles and WGBH is own Eric Jackson dean of the Boston jazz scene. You can join us at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Bobby from Somerville Go ahead please you're on the callee Crossley Show. Eighty nine point seven. Yes ty. I wondered if your speakers could talk a little bit about Charlie binocs. He may be a little known name but I think he was responsible for a lot of great Austin music. Big Mac is nodding his head going you know I can't talk much about Charlie I do know that he was an enormously influential figure. He was a teacher I think at both the New England Conservatory and at Berkeley. He passed not too many years back and one of his proudest students Daniel Perez organized a fairly

big memorial concert for Charlie. But but I personally don't know too much about him I had to wimp out on you but he's a little late for me. OK. I could say that I never met him but the number of musicians who used to come through the studio for me to interview who would mention his name and mentioned that they studied with him was just amazing. I mean you know it didn't seem to matter what instrument they played they all said they studied with him with Charlie. They all talked about his ability to be able to. Listen to you play. And then he would be able to find something to help you improve on the way you were playing in the direction that you wanted to play. He wasn't interested in telling you know you're playing this wrong you've got to go in a whole different direction. He was interested in hearing what you were doing and say

let's you know here here's how you can go in that direction and do it better you know. So I think he he is I've always called him a sort of legendary figure because I never met him. But so many musicians talked about him about him when they came in to do interviews with me. Thanks for the question Bob a good one. So dick in your book you're very careful to distinguish who you think is a Boston jazz musician so there are some characteristics some criteria. We've talked about people who've come in and out how bussing was an incubator how there's no sound per se because all styles were played here. Well who's a Boston music jazz musician. There's two kinds of bus and jazz musicians there's ones who were born here by accident of birth. This just happens to be where they're from. And there are ones who came here. Now there are very famous jazz musicians. Johnny Hodges Harry Carney who were born here but before they were old enough to vote they were already on the way to New York and they spent their entire jazz career outside the city of Boston.

There are other musicians like Victor can sing the trombonist or Frankie Newton the trumpeter who were considered New York musicians but they actually spent years literally years in Boston. So I think a Boston jazz musician is somebody who played here for a significant portion of their career or they were here as teachers as mentors as trainers. So I throw out the accident by birth people I don't really consider them to be Boston jazz musicians I think time and time on the street here is what matters. You know and I think it's funny that there's Roy Hanes who was from Boston born here in Boston. But people still say Boston's own right hands he left Boston in 1945. But but we still we still cling to I don't know if off the top of my head I can't think of any other names like that. But Roy is still thought of as Boston's own Roy

Haynes and he hasn't lived here since before I was born. And it's funny because that's how I learned about him was busted you know in Boston or lost under a record or something that always comes up and we have these discussions about you know past jazz history is where is Boston's jazz scene now how vibrant is it is. Are there still those threads from the period that you chronicle in your book. And is it a new kind of thing happening here in Boston are people still finding it an incubator. You can start Eric and then we'll go over to there. But I think the emergence of Berkeley in the 40s and the content conservators especially the jazz department where 168 or somewhere around then. We're both very important to the jazz scene. They both cause people to come here. You know so they add to the richness of that seems some stay. Others are the people who

actually live in New York but they come up two or three days a week to teach here. So I think that in that sense you still have contributions from Boston going out into the world. You still also have so many musicians who are coming from Boston I was just doing some writing on a saxophonist who comes from Boston. Jerry Bergonzi and we were talking I was talking to Jerry about another saxophonist who comes from Boston. George Carr's own These are two. Fairly well known in the jazz world saxophones who are right here from Boston live here in Boston. I guess George has gone to New York I'm not sure. Jerry lived in New York for a while but came back home to Boston he's on the faculty now at noon conservatory so he's making his mark as a player but he's also making his imprint as a teacher and that's what I think Boston has that sort of do role in general.

There there are players who go out into the world and they're the teachers who teach the students and then we mentioned the Neal a Prius that's another one. He is from Panama but he lives right here in the Boston area and teaches at Berkeley so he's very well known very well back during both both both jobs there. So many of the places that you name well all the places you name your book pretty gone Dick. And a lot of people want to know you know where do you go now I mean I think about scholars and regatta bar in Cambridge of course there are other venues. But in terms of and there are some who believe that jazz is kind of a background music now but not center stage and many even use doesn't have to hold the same interest as it once did. What's your take. Well first I do have to say that one club that I was writing about in this book is still offering jazz 365 days a year and that's what Wally's done and while it's not on the list I stand corrected on the Jazz corner of Reston. And but

other than that all the rest of them as you say they're gone. I really have mixed feelings when I think about where jazz is now because I just finished writing this great book and much of the book is taken up with the 50s which is sort of the golden decade and will never have the 50s again. And I look at the offerings in the clubs and there's just not as much. And I think it's very hard to make a living with jazz I think you could probably get Fred Taylor in here and he'll talk to you about that. But I think that even Fred who used to book Jazz exclusively has had to mix it up with world music and other kinds of other kinds of music in order to keep keep the seats in his clubs filled. So it's tough. And I don't see it on television. I don't hear nearly as much of it on the radio as even in the years I've been living in Boston the amount of jazz on the radio is diminished. So I think it'll never die. You know it's just not what's going to happen. But it is harder to find it is hard to hear it and sometimes it can be pricey. So it's it's priced

out of some people's budgets. In a place like Boston is it. Isn't there more opportunity then Eric for you know Boston to be sustained because Dick makes the point that it never grew year as a scene but it was also always sustainable. Well I think you know I think that and I don't know if I'm patting myself on the back but one of the things that I've always thought that is important to the music is radio. Radio is the way that we can hear the music absolutely not really for free but sort of for free if they or you turn it on and you hear the the music coming to you so I think that's that's very important. I've also said that I like outdoor performances on the street corner or places like that because you know if you have music in a club or even in a library you've got to get the people in the door to hear the music. You know even if it's free again you still have to get the people in the door. So that idea where people can hear it when they're just walking by whether it's a radio or music out on the corner. To me is

so very important to the music. Years ago Stu shorts from WGBH was hosting a panel. At a jazz conference and there were a bunch of old jazz radio announcers on the panel and Steve made the comment well most of us got into listening to jazz from the radio is that true. And he went down the panel and everybody on the panel said Yes yes that's true of course. My father was on the panel because there's a sign up there says no swearing I won't say exactly what my father said but he said there was no radio when I was born. He remembered his sister cranking in the Victrola and playing for him. But but for most of us that is how we got into the we were able to hear it on the radio the stories of so many people who would sneak into their bedroom or get in their bedroom when they were supposed to be sleeping with the radio under the covers or something like that. Listening to

their music is so very important so to me that's why it's so very important that this music is on the radio that's the best teacher that we have exposure that's the best teacher that we have for this music and that's why it's such a problem with the reduction of the hours from we're doing from the radio. Yeah I agree that radio is a very important part and we should note that there are around here anyway again Boston remains vibrate in some ways and possibly in other cities it doesn't I think about Berkeley I think about you know the Harvard jazz program. So there's a young people involved in this music and they're very good. Esperanza Spalding right over here at Berkeley winning all kinds of awards and bringing attention to a form that you know some people might have thought that someone her age would not be interested in or be creative in and vibrant. One of the things that you mention in your book that I thought was interesting and just. Just a quick response to was that segregation had an impact on those clubs back in the time and how that musicians got

together and played and all of that but it seemed to work out for good in this situation because musicians found each other Dick vaca and played together no matter what Boston did better than a lot of other cities did in that regard. And that is one thing that I was surprised to find as I was doing the research I found a history of integrated bands in Boston going back to the very first years of the research I was doing. And then when you get into the 50s when you get into the real flowering of modern jazz and a lot of the players whose songs we've been listening to hear all of those were integrated bands every one of them and the band of searched the band of herb Pomeroy. They were all they were. They were all in a great advantage you know to you at a time when the country wasn't at a time when at a time when Boston was was wasn't the clubs that that they were all in entertainment districts and the entertainment districts tended to be on the main drags where if there was going to be mixing going on in the city there it would be

happening on those main drags anyway on mass have on Tremont Street and Columbus out so. In some respects Boston made out better than a lot of other cities in terms of in terms of the segregation. And I think that's all to the good I think that the music was much better because of it I think the culmination of this was her Pomeroy's band in the 50s with Joe Gordon and Lenny Johnson and John NAVs. And you couldn't of made that band happen without those you know those guys. Absolutely. So Boston is on the map now Eric Jackson. I think it's been on the map for a while I think that the people who know the music know it because of the people who come from here and the people who go here I think again I said that before it's those two poles. And I think Boston contributes to the jazz scene. But on both ends. But dig back in and put it down on paper so now we know for sure.

Thank goodness indeed thank you both for a very rich conversation about Boston's jazz history in a town that sometimes people overlook when we talk about this vibrant music and its history. We've been talking about buses jazz history with Eric Jackson host of jazz on WGBH with Eric Jackson and Dick Bach author of The Boston jazz Chronicles faces places and nightlife. One thousand thirty seven thousand nine hundred sixty two. You can keep on top of the Calla Crossley Show at WGBH dot org slash Calla Crossley follow us on Twitter and become a fan of the Calla Crossley Show on Facebook. Today Show was engineered by Jane Pippin produced by Chelsea murders will Rose lip and Abbey Ruzicka are in turn is Sloane Piven where production of WGBH Boston Public Radio. Am.

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