Education and Race Relations; 21; Civil Liberties and Civil Rights

I. Guess that the session is Frances Keppel United States Commissioner of Education a few years ago the U.S. Office of Education operate on a budget of about 300 million dollars in the next fiscal year. Estimates would indicate that the office will administer a budget well over three billion dollars commenting on commission a couple time in its cover story of October 15 1965 said in three short years in Washington Keppel has changed the Office of Education from custodian of highly forgettable statistics to the nation's most energetic nerve center on. Academic Ferman. Commissioner kapal you've been serving as head of the Office of Education during

one of the most exciting periods in its 99 year history this period has seen the passage of a number of significant pieces of legislation. What is the connection between the omnibus Civil Rights Act the first of the aid to elementary secondary education and let's say the nation's growing concern with equality in education. Well I think it's clear that there is a direct connection to the Civil Rights Act really says that all federal assistance must be administered without regard to race or color or national origin. And you remember another provision requires the Justice Department to go into court in cases where discrimination in public education is charged. But then you take the Elementary Secondary Education Act of 65. It's the major portion of the big three that's authorized is to provide special help for schools for schools in areas where you have children that are educationally deprived and.

Obviously the poverty program with the programs have similar aims. We all know that economic and educational deprivation affects negroes more than others in our society. And I think it's clear that you have an interrelated group of acts. What Commissioner is the federal involvement in providing for a quality education actually something new. Oh I don't think you could say that as you go back in our history there certainly have been efforts going back if you want to before the founding of the nation to have federal help. You had other examples through federal court action Brown cases 64. I suppose you would say the moral act after the Civil War was an effort to provide this special help it is a major step towards providing a certain kind of equality of opportunity. Clearly I think the more recent legislation has a. Label to target target more clearly. But Mr. Kebble hasn't the phrase equality of educational opportunity come now to suggest discrimination on the basis of race rather than on social class.

I suppose it has in recent years. But clearly if you take the words themselves they can have a broader meaning than that. But I think that's almost inevitable isn't it. The focus of attention of the recent years has been on racial problems and that the word is a quality of opportunity tends to focus on that. But I think it's equally clear that they need not well you know in the Time magazine article that the doctor is mentioned and in many other newspaper reports and discussions of the role of the office of education what you've been doing here they talk about this thing of progress and progress toward the goal of achieving integration in the school system. How much progress has been made and how do you really measure it. And that's a hard one because progress is made in one sense legal in another sense. You can use various economic or social criteria. The facts as far as the direct question of degree in which you have children of

different races attending schools are here. Let me just note some of you'll remember in 1964 that a year ago roughly which is 10 years after the Supreme Court decision that was brown version of the Brown case last fall 1240 of the South's roughly 5000 school districts had even begun to desegregate their school system. And in those districts that had begun to desegregate either voluntarily or as a result of court action that you will recall had been taking place about 9.7 percent of the Negro students in these 17 southern border states. That's the whole group of 17 border states about nine point seven percent were attending schools with whites too. Now here is the fall of 1965 a year later and the figure has gone to fifteen point a little less than doubling. It is a more dramatic increase has taken place

even though it's still small in number. In the 11 deep south states from a little over 2 percent of the Negro students to about seven and a half percent what may be just as important is that the number of Negro school districts that are now starting desegregation has notably increased as a result of the Civil Rights Act. The number of districts that started that I think is progress if you want to measure it. You're right with that this is progress in the south. What about the North Mr. Koppel isn't there as much segregation up in the north as down in the south. Yes. De facto I don't know if I can say as much. I don't know how one contrasts this but certainly it's a problem that exists in the north and B. To shut one's eyes to deny that it did. There's a difference here of course in the legal sense I'm trying to make the distinction legal and sure with your in the legal sense that the Supreme Court has not made a ruling

in northern de facto situations which is comparable to the Brown decision in the south. The You have however quite apart from the legal situation clearly de facto segregation situations in northern cities and I think every observer of the social scene. Is well aware of the situation in many northern cities of the increase in the proportion of pupils who are Negro it doesn't work that that's the problem we are making progress slowly but surely through court action legislation administrative administrative action to bring about more equality of opportunity. Oh I think that's the case we are making progress. Yes. I doubt that that's deniable. I take it I take it that everybody would probably have to agree that the change is going on. The debate usually turns on the rate of change of one point about this that I think might be worth making that. So far none nothing of what

we've been talking about has to do with the responsibility of the educator. As far as education is concerned and that's the major focus. Well if that's the major focus of your series I'm glad of it because it's a major focus of anybody who's in the job like mine. Clearly it is not solely social statistics that we're concerned with it's quality of education. And I take it no one would deny that we have very variable quality of education. I mean the old fashioned things of children succeeding in reading fast remembering well mathematics which I'm afraid are record. In either case it's not very good. I would have thought that the problem with the educator is that of developing more techniques than he apparently now has classroom organization curriculum materials and lots of other things to bring about not only raising the quality for all the children but perhaps particularly for those who have been disadvantaged but also

to face the problem about bringing about what I suppose one would have to call understanding or appreciation. Of groups other than the one in which we were born. That clearly was the whole purpose of the whole purpose. But the major purpose of the public school system in any case or while these are positive techniques is I think you probably refer to them and yet it seems to me this is a fairly recent phenomenon progress in this areas has been fairly recent hasn't it this is not something that we don't know. You look back over at American history you should have thought of the record of the United States on balance in areas if not precisely that of racial matters but areas of other efforts including the Great Way handling the great wave of immigration is not to be sneezed at. Certainly there has been progress in recent times and trying to develop new curricula new ways of teaching and new programs. Take the Civil Rights Act itself. Most people think in terms of Title 6 the Civil Rights Act which is the one that deals with the use of federal funds but

one rarely hears about the Title 4 of the Act which provides funds for seminars for teachers seminars for school district personnel. Last year it was eight million dollars provided for this kind of service. And I don't doubt for a moment that the insights are being given as a result of these programs which we just didn't have a few years ago. The distance from Washington to the local community the classroom is so great. What can a local teacher or principal superintendent expect and what should they be looking for from let's say your office. Well first let's get this whole problem into some perspective maybe there's been quite a lot of the newspapers magazines and so forth recently about federal programs that affect the elementary and secondary schools. And I sometimes think as I listen to people talk that they think that the federal government is a much more major partner in all this enterprise then in fact it is the federal government from

the point of view of dollars. The point of view of influence or anything else is clearly a junior partner clearly a junior partner of President Johnson's program has passed the Congress too and it's really an amazing legislative accomplishment of his. But I'm pretty sure he'd be the first to point out that the decisions about what is taught in decisions about how to teach children decision as to who is going to teach it is a local decision and that when you take a look at the entire budget for the elementary and secondary schools in the United States and know where the funds come from you'll notice that the federal appropriations are probably less than 7 percent. Now it's in this context we've got to look at the role of the federal government that is at stake it seems to me to assume or come anywhere near assuming that the federal government is the senior partner. Well I think that's important because coming again out of the interview with Mr. Koppel. Fall of 1965 federal role in education is that of a junior partner in the firm in which the

major stockholders are state local and private educational agencies. And I think you pointed out that the Office of Education as a stimulator for improvement at the local school level is this one reason why a good match good deal the money under the Elementary and Secondary act goes directly to the school system in the United States. It's the basing policy I think of the nation on which I think there's consensus that. We are a continent. Not only a nation but a continent. You've got 25000 separate school districts. You have this immense enterprise with a quarter of the American people connected with it. And I'm sure there's a consensus in this country that that's not going to be. All the basic decisions are not going to be made and certainly not the detailed decisions be made in some central ministry or department or something in Washington. Therefore the acts that the administration has sent up to the Congress have emphasized at every point that the decision will be made where appropriate local or state and the great majority of the funds are going to be decided by state and or local

action. I think it's just a fundamental policy of the United States. You've been a very quotable commissioner the mayor. I recall a comment of yours about. Thank God for civil rights legislation. When did you say that this was not a misquote. No no no no. I think I mean I think I said it before a group of school administrators. And the statement which probably comes out of context occasionally was to the point to the following point that the. Nation as a whole and by the way including myself in this. Had somehow driven over the slums and over the civil rights problem on the highway on super highways the way one drives over part of watts. If you were driven out to the airport in California in Los Angeles. And that the civil rights movement had shown a spotlight on a problem which was partly civil rights perhaps to a great degree civil rights but also a problem which included the

general problem of inadequate education for the educationally deprived and apply to everybody. It shunned the spotlight. And in that sense brought public attention to a problem that needed action and the civil rights movement was one of the major reasons for bringing that attention to that problem. And in that sense I said and still say thank God for it. You also commenting on the academic community have said that you feel a certain kind of relationship that you described as affectionate but disrespectful and that's courting trollop as I remember you the nature of a family is. I recall a happy happy family mind you. And what does what does this mean in terms of the academic community. Well my father used to quote that remark of a trollops and pointed out that his son was occasionally rather emphasized the second aspect of his statement as against the first. What it means is I think that we want to maintain a attitude of criticism and vigorous

criticism of whatever junior partner role the federal government may play on the part of the academic community as a whole. But at the same time a recognition that whatever the federal government does is for the benefit of the whole of the School of the academic community well in that area of criticism that the role of the federal government let's take teachers using this particular series for a better understanding of education or race relations or people who use you know instructional materials in elementary and secondary education now. Is there a need here and tying together education or race relations or having structural materials in your opinion satisfactory in depicting racial and cultural diversity in America or is this another area where we have to move forward with a little greater haste. I'm not really competent I think just talk on the basis of personal knowledge of the range of the materials I should have said that some years ago when I had a little more chance to look at what was being used they were not. And therefore presumably knowing how long it takes to get new materials done and

printed and distributed in the United States I should assume that they are not adequate now and be a very sensible thing to encourage a lot more. But I'm having to go back to personal knowledge for some years. My original comment on the estimate of the amount of money is being handled by your office was over three billion. Is that right. What are the major projects that we will feel back home that will be developed this year. Or next year where this the funds that were appropriated for the elementary and secondary program and I take it you're speaking particularly to that. Yes. Because a good half of this is they are about higher education the funds for the elementary and secondary the large funds were appropriated only in the latter part of September of 1965 which means obviously that you've got a considerable time between that and its impact. I should say that too that the two problems would be felt faster. Than another two. Let me list them.

Problem number one the funds for design for these special programs on top of what's going on now for the educationally disadvantaged children in both rural and urban and those will be coming in in the form of local plans to the states. The states will decide whether they are within the act or not the local will start putting them under effect into effect and there will be considerable variation of time I imagine some are under way right now as we speak others will be some months later. Second the second title of this elementary secondary act has to do with books and other teaching equipment that I should think would be felt reasonably soon. The states run that program much longer. Not much but longer term will be the third and the fourth parts of this elementary secondary act the third which is the so-called centres or supplementary centres and services which are on which there is 75 million dollars appropriated as against almost a billion for Title 1

to get the relation of the size and the fourth which is the establishment in encouragement of research centers laboratories and the like. Those will take much longer to get felt. It seems to me that some of these programs already have gotten under way and there might be might not be too early to make you know some temporary judgment about what about the operation head start program and the some of the others such as they don't have any question myself that the head start program that took place this summer just passed. Undoubtedly did a lot of good. Now how are we going to test a lot of good. I presume we will make a lot of difference with the children in that program which is almost half a million are followed through the schools whether the program itself is just a drop in a bucket or whether it's much more than that it is here for four and five year old children I believe. So I think we have a three year old I don't have any doubt in my mind that those problems let's call them as pilot and sample as demonstration will show the American people what I happen to believe is that it must have more take more responsibility for the education for

providing education for the particularly the disadvantaged children and the five year old age level that the four year old I just don't think we can stay where we are on our present conception of first grade for those children. What is the pick up on this. By way of continuation the I can't answer the question because it's going to depend on a whole host of local programs. And since we only were started as of the time we made this show about less than a month ago I don't have the reports from local and state decisions as to how to spend the title one money it will have to have that answer before I can give you. Mr. Shriver I wrote a joint letter to the school boards on the topic encouraging them to spend local money to follow through the summer good preschool because one of the noble ideas that were being proposed to recently in the legislature did that somehow or other fell by the way was the teaching corps. Oh that was a probe that was in that bill was passed. But no the funds were not appropriated were we will of course go up immediately at the opening of a new Congress for the funds so that we might look forward to

certainly do the authorization bill passed. That's the main point I was very happy that the appropriations did not. But that is perhaps not the first time a government civil servant took it on. I seem to say that the national teachers corps would be emphasizing work in the inner city and the urban areas. It's not necessarily that's where the real problem is in the rural areas and I have set it up because you know when you talk about riding through the slum area by way of the highways I think it's very noticeable in terms of what happens when you ride through those small rural areas. And this looks like a much what they're going to do well maybe the rhetoric that came out in the paper had more to do with this with the cities but the facts are both in rural and cities and the the core presumably will depend on who asks for a group of teachers and I should be most unhappy if there are a lot of the requests did not come from rural areas. But under the National Defense Education Act of course a lot of institutes were held for teachers are disadvantaged. And this is one thing that we found very exciting because teachers are really the Keystone of the

educational movement that program. So it's going to make its keep going. Of course it will make its contribution. The question is whether the scale is right. It is dealing here with a national problem rural urban. I don't suppose any of us who have been in the academic world I would claim to be there anymore are satisfied that we know enough about the training of teachers for this one. So I sometimes think that the teacher being trained knows more than the professor was supposed to be teaching them how often to do and I have a feeling myself. The one thing I can be sure of is that by putting attention on the matter puts those institutes do you get men's brains and women's brains working out at something good will come out of that. But I don't think any of us should claim that we have all that knowledge of Applied Social science to know how to handle it. We're going to be able to explore some evaluation commission of because in Project away Dr. Gordon clop of the bank Street College of Education will be with us and I hope sharing some of his site visits and some of the returns that

he received from the various directors of the 61 Institute. I just cannot believe that it's not going to do a lot of good. But I think one of the dangers of any of us in education is that when we get excited we tend to overclaim immediate results. I tend to maybe all I'm doing is putting a leash on myself and we certainly can only do good here and we do have the white light on the problem that let's be frank as educators we have preferred not to look at. In the slums of the cities and in the rural areas for a good long time and I was one of them. I'm not accusing others of not doing what I personally did not do for a decade as the dean of a school of education. I can only think that good will come from putting the light of the attention on this and giving hope for a group of children who are now very clear we're living without them. Well it's exciting to see all these programs get off the ground at Tufts. We were concerned recently with the youngster from the so-called disadvantaged neighbourhood who has real potential for college and the high school junior you know who really does have other kinds of opportunities like the family to back him up. Is there much of a

program here that we can look forward to as far as the office is concerned. Well I think the Higher Education Act that passed the very end of the last session of the Congress which provides entitle for a method of financing a college education for the boy or the girl who hasn't got a nickel is definitely a partial answer to that because it provides funds for opportunity grants or scholarships whatever would you want to use. Plus loans plus work study. So that seems to be the key question is when you were talking with a kid in junior year in high school 11th grade teacher is the if they say come on don't kid me I haven't got a chance I haven't got a nickel How am I ever going to pay for any part of it. And if you can say look by a combination of loans of work and up grants we can see we can see and you can see your way through college. The commission is going to change the tone as well. For so long so this higher education that's kind of like I'm late for this year. No I don't

I mean in the history of your youngster in other words many of the scholarships are given after you've kind of proven yourself by taking it and sweating it out. But there are many youngsters who are dropping out long before the let's say the junior year isn't part of the reason that the word gets around. What's the use. You haven't got a chance if you start showing that there is a chance a kid in the 12th grade or the 11th grade you begin to open up the possibility the vision of the individual. This isn't the only thing obviously you've got to put the guidance and counsel much deeper into the schools. But if there wasn't in fact a chance you can talk all you want as a counselor can't you. Yes the kid knows better. You're reiterating what a number of the researchers have found. The civies all indicate that parents of youngsters in the lower socioeconomic level always desire education they've learned that they learned the hard way what it means not to be educated but they've also learned the hard way not to hurt the kid. Come on. All of us who've been parents are haunted by the fact that we may build up hopes in our

child that cannot in fact be delivered up and who's a loving parent that deliberately hurts his child. This just seems to be this title for the higher education that gives a real chance. Yes I think it gives the reality an optimism in reality that the parent otherwise doesn't you can't will it allow the middle class. No no obviously no. Well you know this the 89 Congress I think appropriated some 100 and $19 billion for all kinds of welfare programs and of course education was right in there. You see the way that a good half of that is. Well. I don't have anybody to think that's. I said that education is certainly part of the appropriation but is the public that you see the public supporting all the advances made and education and all that Dr. versity said that well this is something every parent wants but not every taxpayer as a parent is. Well we always have the problem I sometimes put it to myself sardonically that educational policy is always good for the other fellow's child.

This is a sort of generalization that probably couldn't be proved but obviously people want more education. I think clearly the votes of the Congress all the public opinion polls show this there's a profound belief in that when it comes to paying local taxes that's always just a little bit different. Mrs. Green has an English lecturer at Harvard. Oh where monies are going in terms of education and when the implications was that there was more money in education outside of the Education Department than in in it. Is that still true of the time that Mrs. Green gave that lecture she was entirely totally accurate. The estimated expenditures for federal funds that in some way would go to a school or a college or that in some way have to do with near formal education on the federal funds that would include for example about a billion dollars for military training. That figure is about a billion. But if you cut down or another 100 million for example of Defense Department

research that goes into colleges it's about a hundred million there. But if you try to cut that figure back to those programs that are by intent focused on the schools and the colleges you get to a much lower figure six or so of that more than half is now in the office of education. Now when Mrs. Greene spoke at Harvard she was entirely right. The figures have changed since her speech. Well I say since we're running out of time commissioner that you are in a very complicated business and I would like to close off with a quote of yours again concerning the arch critic of public schools and I'm sure we need critics concerning Mr. recovers comment. You said Now Admiral Rickover I might add seeing some of these things rather more simply than I do. Well I see his submarines more simply than he does. I think this was a good quote indicating something about the complexities of our problem. Thank you.

Commissioner thank you very much.