WGBH Radio; The Callie Crossley Show

I'm Cally Crossley This is the Cali Crossley Show. With the school year back in full swing. We're looking at education reform with a focus on No Child Left Behind legislation that requires students to be adept in math and reading is getting a below average report card. Today 40 percent of the nation's schools are failing to meet. No Child Left Behind standards in order to get our schools back on track. Secretary of Education Arnie Duncan is letting states opt out of this program. That is if they can come up with alternative ways to boost academic performance. Today we'll look at what's at stake if Massachusetts decides to leave no child left behind behind. From there we continue our 9/11 coverage with a look at Peaceful Tomorrows. An anti-war organization founded by those whose loved ones were killed in 9/11. Up next a priest thinking education and retribution. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi Singh. The number of homes

destroyed by a wildfire in Bastrop County Texas is nearing 800 fueling anxiety among residents who've been trying to find out if they still have a home to go to. The State Forest Service says that it has responded to 19 new fires in Texas so far today adding to those that have already charred a staggering 130000 acres across the state and led to four deaths. But as NPR's John Burnett reports firefighters appear to be gaining ground on the Bastrop County Fire one of the most destructive in the state. Low winds and milder temperatures are helping fire crews start to gain control of the giant Bastrop fire southeast of Austin that has blackened forty five square miles. The Texas Forest Service says it is 30 percent contained. Thousands of people in Bastrop who evacuated are growing anxious about checking on their property and returning to feed animals. This is one of the biggest wildfire outbreaks in Texas history largely because of the record drought fires have been reported near every major population center outside of Dallas Fort Worth San Antonio Houston and the epicenter. Austin Governor Rick Perry a frequent critic of Washington

blame the federal government for slow response and sending help. The U.S. Forest Service reports it has put eight thousand nine hundred fifty people on the ground in Texas. John Burnett NPR News Austin. At least 43 people are dead as a result of a Russian plane crash today. Authorities say the aircraft was carrying a top ice hockey team to Belarus when it went down during takeoff in western Russia. Two people were critically injured. The cause of the crash is unknown. The weather was reported to be sunny and clear at the time. The aircraft 42 had been in service since 1980. The government has said it plans to permanently ground Soviet built planes starting next year. Nine Republican presidential contenders are preparing for their first debate in California tonight which may include Texas Governor Rick Perry who's been busy dealing with a fire crisis at home. Steve Julian of member station KPCC reports Perry now leads the group in national polls.

Perry may have to defend a few recent controversial statements including that there are gaps in the theory of evolution and referring to Social Security as a Ponzi scheme. Perry joins former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney Minnesota Congresswoman Michele Bachmann and five other candidates both Perry and Bachmann have aimed their messages to the small government low tax tea party. They'll all have the economy to target the national unemployment rate is 9.1 percent. And President Obama speaks to a joint session of Congress tomorrow to outline his plan to create jobs. Bachmann won the Iowa straw poll in mid August but lost some support when Perry entered the race. Her campaign manager and deputy manager also have left her staff. For NPR News I'm Steve Julian in Los Angeles. The Dow's up more than 200 points at eleven thousand three hundred forty three. This is NPR News. As Republicans and Democrats are over the best way to put people back to work the government is out with a sobering report on financially struggling households in its latest

snapshot of hunger in America. The Agriculture Department says the number of people struggling with hunger remains high but is moving further away from its record level. As NPR's Pam Fessler reports about forty nine million people lived in households that struggled at some point last year to get enough to eat. In 2008 the number was about 50 million a record high. Government officials credit an increase in food assistance such as food stamps or SNAP benefits for keeping the numbers from growing about one in seven Americans now gets food stamps more than ever before. Still children in some 3.9 million households were unable to get adequate nutritious meals at some point last year. That number was down slightly from 2009. Pam Fessler NPR News Washington. The Chinese media reporting the rescue of 30 mentally disabled people who they say were forced into slavery at a factory in central Helmand Province. It says police acted on a tip to raid the factory where eight people were detained including a 14 year old supervisor.

The Chinese government has been under increasing local and international pressure to crack down on slavery practices. In one of the world's largest economy. Hurricane Katia is a weaker Category 1 in the Atlantic forecasters say it's forecast to pass between the East Coast and Bermuda by tonight or tomorrow but it's not expected to hit land. And tropical storm Maria makes number 13 of this year's Atlantica storm season. I'm Laxmi saying NPR News. Support for NPR comes from the John S. and James L. Knight Foundation helping NPR advance journalistic excellence in the digital age. Good afternoon I'm Kelly Crossley and this post Labor Day Back to School Week we acknowledge another 10 year anniversary. In 2001 No Child Left Behind was signed into law with the help of a bipartisan committee and that was led by Massachusetts own Senator Ted Kennedy who worked with his

congressional colleagues and former President Bush to make the law reality. Aside from the beginning almost from the beginning that No Child Left Behind has been controversial. The focus on accountability has been pretty universally praised. But critics say the excessive testing has pushed some kids and schools further behind. So that leads us to what's happening right now revving up this debate about No Child Left Behind. Last month Secretary of Education Arnie Duncan announced that he was thinking about giving states a shot at opting out of this legislation. What would this mean for education in Massachusetts if we were to dismantle No Child Left Behind. Here to talk about it are Fred Primanti a member of the New Hampshire Board of Education and Jamie gas director of the Center for school reform at the Pioneer Institute. Welcome to you both. Thanks so much ice to be here. The latest data cited by Arnie Duncan is he's pondering whether or not to allow states to opt out of the legislation. This is from two thousand attended to

2011 so that's real reason says. He says 82 percent of schools would be labeled failing under No Child Left Behind. Is that true Jamie. It is true I mean I think that for a lot of folks in the public school world they regard this as sort of a assured destruction I mean the the the the parameters and the benchmarks for NCLB are there's no question about it are extraordinarily rigorous. But I think that one of the things that's important to keep in mind too is that it has injected into the conversation. You know enormous commitment to accountability to standards to testing. And so while some states like Massachusetts are so high performing and have been so high performing there's other states that are much lower performing that I think have benefited from the elements of this conversation. Fred you're on record for saying that in fact you used the word demoralizing to say to describe the impact of No Child Left Behind on public education what do you say

that. Well you used the word failing. You know you said any two percent of our failing that is I would hope that Secretary Duncan didn't say that it would be labeled fail in general and well I'm even saying that is is in my opinion problematic and that what No Child Left Behind has done has categorized all these subgroups you know whether they be English language learners African American Hispanics special needs it didn't matter. All these little subgroups in of one of these subgroups did not make an adequate score. Then they then they labeled the school as in need of improvement. And the translation from the media in many cases has been this is a failing school. And I will tell you from a state board member standpoint who gets to hear the hearings on people appealing this stuff that. It's possible and you know that one or two kids can knock you into

this category. And you end up labeling a very good school in need of improvement. And when you know when the fact is that some of these you know that I mean that some of these subgroups are challenging when you've got kids that have come here in the mentor to schools. For example we have 92 languages spoken in the Manchester schools. How are we supposed to take that you know these kids don't even speak English and then in this limited period of time of 180 days and 7:30 in the morning to 2:30 in the afternoon to get them to a point you know where it's satisfactory I think from my standpoint and I think that you know many of my colleagues in New Hampshire would say the system overall is a failed system. And to be blaming all of the schools and the educators as you know as the problem I think is problematic and it's discouraging. Well Jamie you wrote a bed for the Boston Herald and you said it's all come

crashing down now. I mean all of these issues that Fred just raised. And so if it's all come crashing down now doesn't it make sense then. To allow states to opt out. Yeah well I think it does in some respects and I think that the issue that we have is that Secretary Duncan is trying to tie conditions that have not been approved to Congress to opting out. So all states for example would have to adopt what they call the Common Core the national standards or what they call college readiness standards. And these are things these are provisions of the the current law that have not been approved by Congress so one of the major issues we have is that he's he's basically making a law unilaterally all secretary U.S. Secretary of Education have the freedom to and it certainly happened under Margaret Spellings do they have the ability to provide waivers. But they don't have the ability is to make law over again. All right so could you just walk walk me through anyway because it gets confusing for me. You

don't have kids and you're not an educator someone who's a professional in this. So. We know that Massachusetts is highly regarded nationwide. Massachusetts also has something called impasse and I don't understand how impasse works with No Child Left Behind so first Somebody explain that to me. I'd be glad to do so you know in some respects the discussion of No Child Left Behind really is after a lot of the success that Massachusetts has enjoyed really over the last 20 years or so in 1993. Bipartisan group of legislators Tom Birmingham Mark Roosevelt and Bill Weld sat down and crafted the landmark reform law of 1993 and part of that was a great deal of additional state funding. And and really forcing localities to spend at an appropriate level to after you know 20 years now we've been we've spent about a hundred billion dollars in exchange for. And Cass academic standards charter schools and accountability and some people say that actually NCLB was modeled

after the landmark work here in Massachusetts because Senator Kennedy was one of the co-authors of it. And but the results in Massachusetts have been stunning It really has surpassed anyone's expectations. So this this this grand bargain of a great deal of additional state money in exchange for the testing and the accountability has basically taken us from the middle of the pack or slightly middle of the pack to in 2005 2007 in 2009. Number one in the cut in the country in all of the various categories that are tested under the nape with these what they call the nape as well as internationally competitive in math and science with Japan and South Korea and all these countries that people for so long have been aspiring to compete with so the results in Massachusetts have been stunning then. NCLB came in in 2001. Massachusetts already had some of the prerequisites for and conceal be in place. They had to have high stakes to or they had to have testing they had standards they had to have accountability measures. So for Massachusetts

it's always been you know the federal government in a way catching up with the work that the hard won work that had been accomplished here. If you're just joining us just so that you can keep the acronym in mind in CLB is no child left behind and we're discussing the 10 year anniversary of that program. And Secretary of Education Arnie Duncan is concerned that maybe if the program is not as efficient as it could be nationwide though Massachusetts as just described by my guest Jamie gas is far and away ahead and was before this program came in. So that means just to put a button on this we all understand all the programs that are winning race to the top was what an acknowledgment we're already there or something else. That's the that's the newest program race the top was a federal grant from about a year or so ago that was the Obama administration initiated to try to incentivize states to adopt the kind of standards and the kind of. You know winning reform mechanisms that they thought would help drive education

reform and Massachusetts didn't do very well in the first round or a stop in fact we were 13th out of 16 it was only in the second round when they made some tweaks that we actually got there. But but race the top was not determined by previous or prior achievement. It was based on what reforms are you going to do going forward. All right now given everything you said even with high praise of Massachusetts for all of these educational reform programs some of which we were ahead of No Child Left Behind. My other guest Frederick Monti has said all of these programs are 20th century and by the way we're in the 21st exactly and why do you say that. I think that you know I think that even though even you. Even a good dinosaur is still a dinosaur. And and I think that that this system of public education that we have in United States is broken doesn't work. We have nationally about 30 percent of our kids drop out of school out of high school. Massachusetts is about 20 percent. New Hampshire is at four

percent. New Hampshire was at about 20 to 25 percent in the early you know part of this century 2002 we had there was a study. We have changed the model. We have said that that this model doesn't work that you know having this time based model hundred eighty days 7:30 to 2:30 first quarter second quarter their quarter fourth quarter of this is also kind of left behind this is a this is this is the system of public education. We have had in this country for. As long as time immemorial OK. And then there is a broken system and I don't care how much money you pour into it you never going to make it great. And so you know so I look at if you look at if you're if you're serious about leaving no child left behind and you know and even doing a good job Massachusetts still has 20 percent of its kids dropping out of school. I mean that's all well and good if you're not talking about my kid. But if your kid is one of those kids is dropping out of school and your kids go is as one of those kids it's going to be

in for a challenging life. And you know if they don't get an education then what good has the reforms that Massachusetts put in place. I'm not telling you that I think Massachusetts is not doing a good job I think they are the best dinosaur in the United States. But there's a new system that is coming about. And New Hampshire is defining it and it is a system where instead of time being the constant and achievement being the variable is B Cs Ds and that. We are switching it we are making it so that time is the variable and achievement is the constant we are saying that you know we don't care where kids learn we don't care how kids learn we don't care when kids learn all we care is that they learn at a high level. And it's all about a demonstration of mastery of required competencies and when they can prove that they have mastered a course that they can they can then move on to the to the next level.

For example in the system going to put you on partly because we're going to take a break because you're revved up now we want to we want to hear it in full on the other side of this break. But in essence Everett you're saying We're talking about learning and not teaching. That's the sum and we're talking about learning and not teaching All right. Welcome back to hear what more Fred had to say about this. On the other side of the break we're talking about education reform and what would happen if Massachusetts were to dismantle No Child Left Behind opening up the phone lines of 8 7 7 3 1 8 8 9 7 8 8 7 7 3 0 171 hear from parents this hour. Is that a good thing to dismantle a teacher's if you're not in class right now we'd love to hear from you. 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Back after this break. Keep your dial on WGBH. Programs exist because of you and Skinner auctioneers and appraisers of antiques and

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Join us. Afternoon at two point seven. In fact. Take. Public radio. Welcome back to the Calla Crossley Show. If you're just joining us we're talking about education reform this hour and specifically what it

would mean if our state were to do away with No Child Left Behind or take the opt out that Education Secretary Arnie Duncan is offering at this moment are pondering to offer to states. I'm joined by Frederick Monti a former middle school science teacher he's now a member of the New Hampshire Board of Education and he also serves as an advisor to states on education reform. Also with us is Jamie gass director of the Center for school reform at the Pioneer Institute and that's here in Boston. We open up the lines. We'd like to hear from parents and teachers this hour 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Is this legislation that's no child left behind a good or a bad thing for education. 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Fred I promised you the opportunity to put a concluding bow on your learning not teaching movement in New Hampshire. Well. It doesn't mean that teaching will go away it just means that we really don't care how

kids get information. We only care that they get it and they get a high level. I often tell kids that if you know in the system that we have now you can get in a first quarter in addition an A B second quarter and subtraction to see third quarter multiplication a D or an F fourth quarter and division. And you can still pass the course. You haven't learned multiplication and division why should we let you pass the course. So I tell them if they're going to go into the Air Force going to learn to fly a plane they get an A in taking off they get in a keepin the plane in the air but they get a CDR and after the landing they don't want to pass the course so ultimately this should be about high standards. And when you have demonstrated mastery of those those high standards then you move on to the next level. And so kids can move faster and slower and it really doesn't matter we give the kids the opportunity to take ownership of their learning. And we have what we call extended learning opportunities where we have blessed in our regulations for credit toward graduation private instruction independent study online courses internships or apprenticeships. Any way that a kid can demonstrate that he or

she has mastered the required competencies they can now get credit in state New Hampshire. All right well that's that. Yes. You want to you know I wonder if I could be a responder that Fred mentioned that this is a dinosaur that even Massachusetts is a dinosaur you know a good one though it's a good idea. Yeah. And I have to take issue with that because I think because I think there really are two conversations there's the things that Massachusetts has done and done well and then a lot of the rest of the country. And I think the best example that Massachusetts is in fact not a dinosaur but really on the right path or has been on the right path is the International Math and science testing. They call Tim's in Pisa where Massachusetts is right up there next to South Korea and Japan and Hong Kong and these folks that are international competitors. That's from my point of view that's not being a dinosaur. These are public school systems. They can work. But again it gets back to that grand compromise of a great deal of additional resources in exchange for high academic standards the testing and the accountability and greater school choice. All right well I'm going to let some of our listeners get in on this conversation. CHRIS From meant

for you on the Cali Crossley Show WGBH Go ahead please. Well good morning. Hi. I've got a major problem with the cast and the way we teach me severely dyslexic and I grew up in a school where you know English spelling reading forget about it. But you give me mathematics you give me me mechanical. I can. Up there with the best. And so I needed a specific way of learning which was not given. My daughter who is so artistic She is so good at art and math and science is not her favorite thing in the world. And every child is being held to the same thing everybody has to learn the same thing all around. And there's no individual our individuality when it comes to any of this stuff. I got your point Chris let me let Fred respond to that because he was a guy who was two hundred and one out of two hundred sixteen you know and two hundred and

six out of 200 All right there you go. So you know so I can relate to that. I totally understand what he's talking about. Absolutely agree. And basically what we're talking about in New Hampshire is that is is getting to a customized education for every single kid based on their their personal interests. Passions there they're their whole child needs not just academic but social personal and physical needs. You know so let's customize the school around the kids instead of having the kids have to conform to this you know one size fits all and I know that that's an over exaggeration of what it is because I do believe that Massachusetts's is doing some wonderful things and I know all of the great things that are going on at Brocton high school with Sue Salkowitz. I mean so there's three or so yeah there yeah. So so you know while you know please please pardon my my poking at my birth state Jamie I got bored in the state. And

and but ultimately. When you have it when you're when you're basically eliminating 20 percent of the kids that drop out of school then then you know that test scores will get even better if we can get more of these kids to drop out of school that's saying that obviously facetiously that is our goal if you're serious about leaving no child left behind No Child Behind then you have to have a system that is built from the ground up to do that and this system including that what's going on in I would say in Massachusetts as I said the best of the dinosaurs and that is that it's not designed to leave no child behind. And what we're trying to do is build that system from the ground up. I see. I take your point but I want I want to put on the table before I go to my next caller is to make it clear to anybody listening that Chris makes an important point crystal our caller and you you made an important point answering him. Neither one of you is saying there should be no accountability Oh absolutely just.

Talking about what may be the differences in how roaches and I sometimes a little put that on the table. Yeah good Jamie. Yeah I wonder if I could respond to Chris so on em CAS there are allowances that are made for students with special needs and there's no question that art is something that I think is probably best. It's wonderful and I think but I think that is what we did in Massachusetts as we tried to target the the core subject areas on which other subject areas turned so if you don't have basic proficiency in reading or in numeracy you're never probably going to be able to fully appreciate art or learn the history of art and all that. And Chris is right. The standards are the same that was really the goal of ed reform it was something that folks like Tom Birmingham and Margaret developed and Bill Weld insisted on because prior to CAS and prior to having high academic standards the kids in Wellesley they got wonderfully rich academic curricula and the kids in Chelsea in Boston and Worcester didn't and that is really what Casson the standards done is has equalized so that every kid across the

commonwealth the mater what zip code you know you know they they live in that they have access to high quality academic really rich content that we know drive student achievement. OK let me go to Dave who is I teach your wells from Wellesley Go ahead please you're on the Kelly Crossley Show WGBH. DAVE Oh. How I how it did a hell of an IT teacher well deliver well secretly I was a teacher in upstate New York. OK high school teacher for the past 7 years and like I told the screener there my father was a math professor for the past 35 years just retired at a community college so getting you know what to say to the lower level students but the students who might not have the abilities socioeconomically or skill wise. To go to a four year college at that time and from the school that I came from although we were meeting standards you know barely meeting standards and certainly on the list of decent schools. The issue was as we were standing about 60 percent of our students to the community college where my father taught he was teaching introductory algebra

and other students were coming out of school who were technically meeting standards were totally unprepared for freshman level algebra at a non competitive college or post-secondary education institution I do blame No Child Left Behind. What do you what do you see what I'm claiming as they come up with the standard so would you talk to New Hampshire. What will a kid stay as long as they want until they can till they master the standard. What's the what's the measure of a standard college retirement readiness job readiness manual labor readiness What is the standard that the students have to meet. Good question Dave. When I put it on I put it to my guest thank you very much for the call Fred do you want to respond or I would say first of all getting back to the to the art example. There we would look at this and how would you try and use art. Let's say music for example to be the foundation of this kid's science learning this kid's math learning this kid's history learning as opposed to we're going to teach you

math. Well we're going to we're going to you know we're going to we're going to really be heavy on maybe a subject that he or she is not crazy about. So let's find their strength and we'll let you use their strengths to get them excited about it. We're talking about mastery of acquired competencies. When you look at the remedial courses that are going on in college if a student you know of all their a test does in school is. You give you no measure where you are today and two weeks later you forget half of what you know what was on the test that you have not achieved mastery mastery is about understanding this subject well enough so that you can apply it in unknown situations in the future. How do you define readiness as well in Massachusetts so they actually award Adams scholarships based on CAS achievement and so while some of the folks who have been critical of him CAS have said that it doesn't actually prepare kids for college it's sort of odd that we reward scholarships

based on it. But I think that there is a lot of evidence that the better kids do on an cast that is to say the higher categories that they score on it they have a better chance of doing well in college but the way from our point of view the way to define standards and it's something that people in public education have avoided for 20 or 30 years or so is the focus on academics that is to say kids in in English class reading high quality literature reading you know Shakespeare and Melville and Frederick Douglass and W.B. Dubois you know having kids in history class learn about the founding documents in the civil war in the civil rights movement. I mean the the academic substance is really what it is that is the game changer for kids and I think what Massachusetts illustrates is that it's particularly a game changer for kids that don't traditionally have access to that kind of content. If you're just joining us you're listening to WGBH radio and WGBH online. We're talking about education reform with a focus on No Child Left Behind and discussing particularly whether or not Massachusetts would be better off by opting out

if Secretary of Education Arnie Duncan makes it possible out of this legislation. My guests are Fred Monti a member of the New Hampshire Board of Education and Jamie gas director of the Center for school reform at the Pioneer Institute. So back to callers Barbara from Rhode Island you're on WGBH the Calla Crossley Show. Go ahead please. Hi how are you find I I basically I think there I think I would. Oh no I think you like very very. But an unfunded mandate and therefore I think they could be less developed the first thing we need to ensure that their children meet the standard. And I applaud what they're doing in New Hampshire. I think we need more apnoea like a web site or my. You know we are in trials for you you know no matter what your children are I mean reachable and well.

All right thank you very much Barbara. Provocative point in your op ed Jamie you said it's a mistake to move away I mean there are some issues or some flaws but we've got to really think about the success of No Child Left Behind. Yeah I mean I think there have been six successes and I think there's and I'm certainly generally has a kind of skeptical view of the federal government in education primarily because the federal government only pays for about 10 percent of it so in this country you know 90 percent of the funding and certainly the authority for it is really the state and local level. That said funding for NCLB or No Child Left Behind has grown enormously over the last you know 10 years or so. And I we wouldn't you know we wouldn't be as concerned about Massachusetts opting out if some of the accountability measures within Massachusetts hadn't been zeroed out too so there's a state agency who is responsible for holding school districts accountable and in interest of full disclosure I used to work for it. But a couple years ago the state decided to get rid of this small agency of a couple of million dollars that holds the essentially 9

billion dollars that the state spends annually on K-12 education and so it seems like there's a general effort to lessen the accountability at the federal level Lessel the accountability at the state level and through pushing these national standards which are part of the conditions for adopting or opting out of NCLB. You know you have to you have to adopt and so and we've determined that those standards are of lower quality so our general concern is that it's kind of moving in the wrong direction especially given the historic success that Massachusetts has enjoyed. Let me ask a question Jamie. So let's say Secretary of Education Arnie Duncan says opt out if you will. And a number of states do it. Massachusetts doesn't run as a right. Maybe. Wow. You know talk about lack of uniformity in terms of where kids how kids are learning or being taught. What is that how do what does that look like in five years no it's a great question and so you so what. I mean you know as Fred was mentioning I mean people for 20 30 years have been exasperated about the generally

low quality of performance in public education in this country so we had a nation at risk in 1983. We had the efforts at various stops and starts at state level and then we had NCLB and the issues are profound across the country we have deep pockets of chronic under-performance that are largely in urban districts that need to be remedied and I think from our point of view it's how you it's how you how you remedy it and things like charter schools and vocational technical schools and Medco and a lot of other mechanisms I think are the ways to to to help remedy it but I think that oftentimes people get in around the No Child Left Behind conversation and it's certainly an unpopular law. The current direction is that it will be even more intrusive than it has been over the last 10 years the trajectory that Secretary Duncan wants to take it in is a much more micro-managing model than what we have right now. Let's go to the callers. Patrick from Providence Rhode Island you're on WGBH

the Calla Crossley Show. Hi. I think you were going to say that I think No Child Left Behind really isn't working very often a tutor for the missionaries and seeing students kind of ushered along when they really don't have the skills and I think often perform well just in the real world and they are private schools and has phenomenal talent these kids have. So my my common is I think actually just keeping the students almost just requiring them to meet a proficiency level is a great idea but I think you really need to be thought through to make sure to really have that effect really raise the standards wise to take the stuff to the bare minimum then that's when we all know that these kids are private schools which would not be better than the bare minimum standards raise the standards and start early start getting teachers on board actually had teachers on your committee don't have people who are not interacting with students making rules for teachers could. It's almost like it's almost like you know it ministers making rules for doctors. So have them on board not only raise the standards and keep the students but also be prepared for the fallback of that you're going to

have. Kids who may be like 16 and 8 great to really think it through is in the best case scenario how will this work even in the worst case scenario are we ready to face the criticism. OK we have now a 16 year old who's in eighth grade and teachers are having to deal with a student over and over. How are we going to deal with that. But if we start early I think the standards that we set ourselves to could be blown out the water if we start like a for talking like fourth grade if not just high school. It's great keeping them at a high level and making them stay there until they reach that level by the time they're in 12th grade. I mean I don't care. There I have to say I don't care if they're 20 they're going to meet the standards of the students who have been you know taking tutors and extracurricular actually lied to get into Harvard and this and that. So we haven't got to be thought through. You really got to get the ground running that hard you know. OK we're just going to keep a little longer. Well thank you very. Thank you Patrick for the provocative. I'm going to get my guest to respond. Fred what do you say to Patrick. Well I think that in many ways he has

it right that I mean and he's talking about he's talking about changing the time part of it. You know that you know that if if all we're doing is let you know we limit our school by time and then we are restricting our kids. And because some kids it's going to take them longer some kids it's in my take less time. But one of the things that he said I think was really important he said these kids don't have the skills to go out into the real world. Well what we're doing in New Hampshire is we're making the real world part of education so that we pull in the business community we pull in the not for profits. I always ask where are you going to create the next space scientists and a high school classroom or at the Christa McAuliffe Planetarium where you're going to create the next oceanographer and a high school classroom or at the seacoast Science Center in Rye where you going to create the next engineers in a high school classroom or or with Dean Caymans first robotics program. It's not even close. So why should we even try. So let's harness all of the assets that we have in our communities. Business is not for profits talented individuals. And let's use our

our paid professionals to coordinate this whole process so that we answer the questions that he asked because he asked questions you got to make sure that this is about high standards and so. Well let me ask let's also mention something else he said which I want you to address just quickly if you would. He said he looked at the private schools and the kids there have all these resources and wanted in the bottom line is the bottom line is that how are you. I love I want to go back to school in New Hampshire right now. But how do you pay for it I mean states are hurting everywhere. The system that we have right now is financially unsustainable. And so you know to me it's like there's no way that this can last. So what we've always been we've all heard the stories about the teachers who are spending their own money for. PENCE Yes and whatever else. OK. We always think of public education is managing as it is overseeing these scarce resources. We have to change the mentality of public education from managing these scarce resources to managing abundance. We have abundance around us if we look in our communities what do we have.

Look at all the automatic in my eyes everybody and bring them in and you know that in kind if you will in concert and I'm absolutely right you know what. And so instead of learning automotives in the school you learn all the mowers that the car dealership got it I'm going to let Jamie gass have the last word here. So just a comment about that I mean there's no question high academic standards is what it's all about the vocational technical schools in Massachusetts have made tremendous gains and it's because they focused on academics first and the skills second. But I you know I get I think that the the reality of it is that there is no child left behind has some significant flaws the big issue that we really have with it is trying to tie conditions to opting out that have not been approved by Congress that's just sort of Civics 101. Do you think Massachusetts to get out OK but I know I think that they should be allowed to continue to have some waivers yes. All right OK well thanks to you too for an exciting conversation.

I'm Kelly Crossley we have been talking about education reform and what it would mean to do away with No Child Left Behind I've been speaking with Fred Primanti a member of the New Hampshire Board of Education and advisor to states on education reform. Also with me Jamie gass director of the Center for school reform at the Pioneer Institute thank you both. Thank you. You can find a link to Jamie gets his recent op ed about No Child Left Behind at our website WGBH dot org slash Calla Crossley. Up next we continue our 9/11 coverage with filmmaker Terry Rockefeller a member of the September 11th Families of peaceful Peaceful Tomorrows. We'll be back after this break. Stay with us. This program is made possible thanks to you and Cirque du Soleil presenting the show ke Dom. The story of the young girl's escape into an imaginary world. You can be part of the Cirque de Soleil experience at the aganda Serina September 7th through 11th. Tickets at Cirque du Soleil dot com. And Elsa Dorfman Cambridge portrait photographer are still

clicking with the jumbo format Polaroid 20 by 24 analog camera and original Polaroid film online at Elsa Dorfman dot com. And that's Elsa Dorfman dot com. Join us on Sunday September 11 at 2:00 is eighty nine point seven WGBH a ninety nine point five all classical come together to present a little an essence a special commemorative concert Live from any CS Jordan Hall. The broadcast is made possible through the generous support of the city of Boston John Hancock Financial. Services Blue Cross Blue Shield of Massachusetts be and why Mellon and the Massachusetts convention center authority. If you've recently volunteered a financial gift of support to WGBH Thanks Joy investment has gone straight to work powering the programs you depend on. And if you're looking for a way to become even more involved consider signing on as a WGBH volunteer help post in-studio events become a WGBH tour guide and join the

behind the scenes team at WGBH radio in television. Details online at WGBH dot org slash volunteer. We're running out of oxygen. I have so many people that I can trade the world on and it's not an easy decision for anyone to make. Coming up at 3 o'clock on an eighty nine point seven WGBH Boston NPR station for news and culture. Welcome back to the Calla Crossley Show. If you're just joining us we're marking the 10 year anniversary of 9/11 with my guest Terry Rockefeller. She's a documentary filmmaker and peace activists involved in September 11 Families for Peaceful Tomorrows. An organization founded by family members of those killed on September 11th. Her sister was in the World Trade Towers when they collapsed on 9/11. Terry Rockefeller welcome. Thank you Kelly it's good to be here. Everybody listening is feeling for you and those families of September 11. It's got to be a tough week for you.

It's an extraordinary week because it is bringing back with such immediacy the events that I lived through 10 years ago. I'm remembering what it was like to lose my sister which was devastating but I'm also remembering the march of events that followed 9/11 and taking time to take stock of where we've where we've gotten to 10 years later. Thinking about the way I joined together with other families really to explore the possibility of responding with nonviolence and doing something to break the horrible cycles of violence that that took Lora's life and thinking deeply. I know it's painful to ask but. Where were you on on September 11 and how did you learn about your sister being in the building. I had gotten up early that morning and I was heading to the gym and I heard on the radio about the first plane hitting the

north tower did a U-turn went home got on the telephone to call my sister because I was going to be the one sister was an actress and a singer and she was often up late and often sleepy man and I I needed to talk to her I mean it was the city she lived in in the city that she loved that had been attacked and she didn't answer the phone and I thought well she's gotten up early and she's out walking the dog about four o'clock that afternoon two of her girlfriends who had had dinner with her the night before called. And that was the first I had any idea that she was in the World Trade Center she was doing a freelance job. She was an actress but she did other work to pay the rent. And it was I know once they told me I knew where she was I knew where the plane had hit. I knew there was just virtually no possibility that she'd gotten out and just became a matter of putting that death in perspective. And you know Terry People grieve in different ways and how did you get to the

point where you could channel your loss into this action really this group that has decided to take a very kind of direct action. You know I have I think one of the greatest. Well I had two great resources in responding. One was that my husband and I had been members of Amnesty International for years. It was something we did when we got married because we believed in it deeply and that made me think it made me feel it made me know that I was not alone that so many human beings throughout history have been victims of appalling evil. And what I loved about Amnesty International was that they they they defended people who stood up to that when they believed in nonviolence. And the other the other knowledge I had came from

work that I did at black side and Cal you were a producer a black side to I mean we had the opportunity to explore the incredible intelligence of Dr. King and the other people who promoted change through nonviolence. And these last 10 years have been an odyssey for me to really think about what nonviolence is and what pieces and what peace is and and what I have come to over these 10 years is to understand that those are not naive or simplistic ideas. The power of the law and the power of Justice is one of the greatest forces we have for nonviolence and one of the things Peaceful Tomorrows members have been struggling for is to have real fair and proper and legal trials. The war in Afghanistan did not

deliver Osama bin Laden to the United States. You know we when we came together in Peaceful Tomorrows we said police action we said arrest people. We said put them on trial. We said have America stand for the best that it is behind have it stand for its constitution. How did you find each other because there there are many September 11 families sadly. And each person came to wherever he or she would be at this point in a different way. But your group of families decided we want to work for peace in light of this. So how did you find each other. It was one of those instances of the Internet you know really working the the organization was founded by about a dozen people. And it wasn't until it was founded that I learned about it and joined. But the story is I think a really powerful one in in January of 2002 right after the.

Huge bombing that had gone on in Afghanistan for family members decided to travel for people who had lost children or brothers sisters up to the attacks decided to travel to Afghanistan because they were aware that they would encounter civilians who were also innocent victims of violence and they wanted to draw attention to the high rates of civilian casualties that war cause wars cause and to really ask profound questions about whether or not the notion that there could be a war on terror made sense. They connected with these civilians and they brought back the stories of their losses and the organization began to document. What the civilians were experiencing and to tell their stories here. When I heard about that I knew that these were people I wanted to work with. I knew that I needed to be active and I knew that they'd be great partners.

It's important to note here that all of you didn't come together fully formed and you know here I've experienced this great loss and now I'm a peace activist on it I'm going forward in the march. You know that's a process for everybody. You put together a documentary. Your organization September 11 Families for Peaceful Tomorrows called Beyond repped retribution. And I want people to hear from one of your other members about her working through the process so this is Amy talking about what she felt right after 9/11 after. September 11 people asked me you know how I was PR and I quit worrying about retribution or what I caught a song from on what would you want to happen. You know I was thinking oh you know I was like well you know I did have a trial or whatever and I was having a very peaceful response and then I realized I copped to the fact that I was having fantasies that I saw something modern like that just like beating her and you know. I thought well. That's probably not healthy. Yes.

You know mindset to have right now maybe I don't have a very peaceful response to this and I'm angry. So that was Amy Rice and she talked about her initial response. She was then advised to do something that she resisted which was to pray for those people who had harmed her. And this is how she felt after she went through that process so this is Amy again in the documentary Beyond retribution that you know I mean I talked to some of them think how my knees and I pray and pray for us and the hijackers who just felt so horrible at first. But then I noticed that my own my anger was slowly slipping away. Is America ready to embrace a kind of peace in the space that an Amy is in and that your your group your families are are hoping to foster. Kelly I hope so I hope that one of the things that comes out of this this

the reflections that are that are happening because of the 10 year anniversary is that we look back to you know what how we have responded to the terrorist attacks. What kind of efforts have made a difference and what efforts have actually exacerbated things. You know we were I was reflecting the importance of learning learning from Dr. King and the name of our organization Peaceful Tomorrows comes from. A comment he made. Wars are poor chisels for carving out Peaceful Tomorrows. And you know peace isn't just a fantasy or an idealistic value. It's what we want. I mean nobody wants to live in a violent neighborhood. No one wants to live in a war zone. So I think that we can embrace learning more about how to how to achieve those things. The the the comments from Amy Rice are precious to me. She had just

returned from spending and lost her brother in the towers and he had been a Rhodes scholar and spent time in South Africa and she and her her other brother had just returned from South Africa where they had met with her father Michael Lapsley who was an Anglican priest who had worked with the ANC and Michael Lapsley is now working through a project called The Healing of Memories. To actually repair social relationships in South Africa and it was it was it was Amy's journey to South Africa to another culture to another place where so much healing was necessary. That I think moved her to a point where she could pray and have her mind changed or begin to feel differently. I've I've taken different paths I think I think. My my. My path has taken me to try to actually encounter the people who I

think have suffered because of my country's war on terror. You know war is terror. So to me the concept of fighting a war against terrorists makes no sense but I have been spending the last five years of my life traveling and meeting with Iraqi social activists and understanding that there are people there are peace activists all over the world and that instead of using American military might to try to damp down the sectarian violence that was stirred up by our occupation we would be so much better off putting our energies into supporting the local peacemakers because they exist everywhere. This Sunday Where Will You Be There is a huge commemoration specially for the families all the families including your group at Ground Zero. Will you be there or elsewhere. Actually Sunday morning I will be flying back from a peace

rally that I will have spoken at in Philadelphia and then I'll be on the Boston Esplanade where the Boston Pops is playing in a commemoration and we're going to be handing out literature about Peaceful Tomorrows I really hope that anyone who's who's down at the Esplanade and who's interested will come and find my table and learn more about Peaceful Tomorrows. To me it's not important to be in New York in the event it's important to be someplace where I can be spreading the message of this organization that is meant so much to me. Terry thanks for sharing your story and all of us are sorry for your loss and we'll be holding you in our hearts on Sunday. Thank you so much. We've been marking the 10 year anniversary of 9/11 with Terry Rockefeller. She's a documentary filmmaker and peace activist involved in September 11th Families for Peaceful Tomorrows. An organization founded by family members of those

killed on September 11th. Her sister was in the World Trade Towers when they collapsed on 9/11. Tune in to WGBH all week long for our special 9/11 coverage. You can also keep up to date on our September 11 special reports on WGBH dot org. I'm Kelly Crossley. Today Show was engineered by Antonio and produced by Chelsea murders will slip and every Ruzicka where a production of WGBH radio Boston's NPR station for news and culture. Above.