WGBH Radio; The Callie Crossley Show

I'm Cally Crossley This is the Calla Crossley Show. Aristotle said men come together in cities in order to live. They remain together in order to live the good life. Words My guest editor Lazar would agree with in his new book Triumph of the city. Glaser argues that were healthier and happier in these dense buzzing hubs of activity he writes that from Manhattan to Mumbai great cities electrified by human interaction and innovation attract talented people encourage entrepreneurship and provide greater opportunities for social and economic mobility. This hour to Mark WGBH a series on local cities and towns. We'll also get Glazers take on where Boston has thrived and failed as an American city. From there it's local made good with Steve Katz the variety show he started on cable access could be coming soon to a TV near you. Up next from Metropolitan might to a local king of late night. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi Singh. President Obama will

address the American public tonight 7:30 Eastern about his reasons for ordering military intervention in Libya and supporting no fly operations being taken over now by NATO's in their advance westward toward Tripoli Libyan rebels are reporting progress on the ground against Moammar Gadhafi's troops with help from coalition air strikes pro-Gadhafi forces reportedly have control of part of Misrata though. NPR's Lourdes Garcia-Navarro was escorted there by government officials she describes the area as virtually empty everything is deserted except for evidence of the fierce clashes that have taken place in this besieged city for many many weeks now. And what we see also evidence of our coalition Neda led airstrikes that these soldiers here on the ground say have been hitting their positions. We've seen burned out tanks mangled trucks and other. Evidence of the fierce fighting and bombardment that's that this area has been experiencing.

NPR's Lourdes Garcia-Navarro on the outskirts of Misrata. The Turkish government says it will oversee airport operations in Benghazi Libya to facilitate humanitarian relief. Prime Minister regift type says his troops will also help NATO's enforce the no fly zone over Libya when the alliance assumes full control over air strikes against Libya's defense system. However the Turkish leader says he will not allow his forces to take part in ground attacks against Libyans. In Japan officials are worried about radioactive water from a damaged nuclear power plant spilling into the sea. NPR's Jon Hamilton reports that the water already has nearly filled a series of underground tunnels the tunnels run near three buildings that housed massive steam turbines at the Fukushima Daiichi plant. Government officials say the tunnels are almost completely full of radioactive water. They say if more water gets in it will overflow and run towards the sea which is only a couple of hundred feet away. The discovery comes several days after water with similar levels of

radioactivity began flooding the basements of the turbine buildings. It's not clear whether that water came from the tunnels. Tokyo Electric which runs the Daiichi plant says it is still working to pump water out of the basements. Then it will focus on the tunnels. Jon Hamilton NPR News Tokyo. The Supreme Court hears arguments today in a job discrimination class action lawsuit against Wal-Mart the largest ever against the retail giant. The high court will decide whether the suit can go forward as lower courts had ruled. But Wal-Mart argues a suit should be thrown out because it says The case involves too many women from a wide range of positions and Wal-Marts. Thirty four hundred stores to be considered in one lawsuit. Dow's up 23 12000 to 43. This is NPR. Stocks are pushing higher on upbeat economic news out today among them a Commerce Department report that consumer spending rose seven tenths of a percent in February its fastest pace in four months. Ken Perkins with retail metrics says higher gas

prices have a lot to do with why people spend more last month. But he warns that the more fuel costs go up the less people will be able to spend when watching gas prices creep up here now for several months. It's been a pretty rather precipitous rise and certainly has a much higher impact on lower income consumers leaving a lot less disposable income and for them to spend. Bergen says another factor in both the increasing consumer spending and a rise in personal incomes last month was Social Security payroll tax cuts which began at the start of the year. France's local elections signal trouble for President Nicolas Sarkozy and his conservative party. Eleanor Beardsley reports that just a year ahead of the presidential vote the country's socialist opposition and the far right. Are touting gains until recently the National Front Party which opposes immigration and wants France to leave the European Union was considered a political pariah by most French people. But in elections in French can't On Sunday the National Front took nearly 12 percent of the vote. Many analysts cite the economic downturn and the rise in Muslim immigration as a

cause for the party's new popularity. Another is the popularity of the National Front new leader Marine Le Pen who took over from her father John Marie Le Pen in January. A lawyer and mother of three Marine Le Pen is seen as more modern and mainstream than her father who was more of a French good old boy. While Marine Le Pen has no real chance of taking the presidency say analysts she could split the vote on the right and allow the socialist to win. For NPR News I'm Eleanor Beardsley in Paris. This is NPR. Support for NPR comes from the NE E Casey Foundation investing in strong futures for kids by promoting reading at grade level by the third grade at dot org. Good afternoon I'm Cally Crossley This is the Calla Crossley Show today WGBH kicks off the series where we live. Taking a look at cities and towns across the commonwealth. This hour we're going to look at the role cities have at large. With my guest economist

Ed Glaeser He's a professor at Harvard senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute and author of a new book Triumph of the city how our greatest invention makes us richer smarter greener healthier and happier. Ed Glaeser welcome. Thank you so much for having me on. Listeners We're taking your calls at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Do you live in the city. Tell us what you like about Urban Urban Living. What you don't like and for those of you in the suburbs why are you electing to live beyond the city limits. 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 and you can send us a tweet or post a comment on our Facebook page. So Professor Ed Glaeser your overall premise is that what makes cities great is the density all of us should have compact that they are in together and the more people the better which in turn leads to innovation. Explain that cities are at their heart the absence of physical space between people they

allow for the connections that that make us more human. Humankind's greatest asset is our ability to learn from the people around us we come out of the womb with just remarkable talent soaking up information and city's help that as that happened they magnify the talent they create an onrush of human experience that enables us to learn and learn from Smart people learn from from errors. Of course we learn as much from observing mistakes as we do from successes and cities are responsible for the chains of collaborative creativity that are responsible for humankind greatest hits from Athenian philosophy to Ford's Model T's to Facebook all of which show the ability of people to learn from one another and create one innovation that builds on the next innovation and that happens in cities. Now why can't that happen in a suburb of smart people. So if I my neighbors are smart would not come up with some of the it can and does happen happen in suburbs as well I talk a lot about about Silicon Valley in the book which is sort of some sense of semi city right its built around the car but it still has a remarkable concentration of talent.

The particular urban advantage is just the scale is just the amount of knowledge that you can have in the amount of range of exposures that you can have and one of the things that makes dynamic city so successful is having a really wide range of industries to call from one of the stories I tell in the book is the story about Mike Bloomberg who himself you know wildly successful entrepreneur but he's actually an entrepreneur he's actually an information technology entrepreneur not a financial services entrepreneur. And in some sense he's competing with those guys out in Silicon Valley. But the reason why he was able to be so successful is he was able to draw on the knowledge he choir when he was at Salomon Brothers when he was in New York running the trading floor of that company and that unable to know exactly what the people in finance actually wanted and needed on their desk that enable it gave him the knowledge that he needed to actually be enormously successful in his business and that that melding together of different industries of different people from different backgrounds different occupations different ethnicities different cultures is part of what makes cities so enormously special. You know cities seem to me to get a bad rap is that just my you know

too late to the party. SS But Ana you know somebody says oh you live in the city. You know it doesn't seem like it unless you're in New York where it's you that's hip and happening you know. But if but other than that a lot of times people are like where you move up if you will like the Jeffersons when you move out you know what I mean going back to the greats of my youth. Really. Then they say that's when it happens right. Actually yeah that's right. But I think cities do get a bad rap and that's one of the reasons why I wrote this book is to challenge the notion the cities are decaying are corrupt and that the American dream can only lie behind a white picket fence in the suburbs. What made that that true. Cities have since the beginning of our country have been central places that helped America happen if you think about Sam Adams and John Hancock connected by Boston's density in creating the magic that led to the LED to the American revolution that led to this country if you think about the cities of the

Midwest that were the nodes on a great transportation network that connected America all those farmers and I wouldn't been that productive without the rail cars in Chicago that would enable their products actually get get East and in the 20th and 21st centuries as well cities are the economic engines of our country. I mean if you if the rest of America reached per capita output level seen in the New York metropolitan area our nation's GDP would go up by 43 percent. Right there's an enormous gap. In productivity and yet we still act as if cities are you know some sort of terrible place some part of that is the fact that historically cities were unhealthy. If you look at a boy born in New York City at the start of the 20th century that boy could expect to live seven years less than if they were born elsewhere in the country because cities were killing fields the same density that enable people to connect with each other to learn from one another. Also enable the spread of disease. But through massive investments most of all in clean water. American cities and towns were spending as much on clean water at the start of the 20th century as the federal government was

spending on everything except for the post office in the army. Because of these investment cities become far healthier now a boy born in New York City can expect to live two years longer than the national average. And that's you know we don't really fully understand why cities are so healthy for older older people but for younger people the cause the cause of death are quite clear there are two very major causes of death for young people on our motor vehicle accidents and suicides. Both of which are much lower in cities motor vehicle accidents and we just you know taking the T after a few drinks is a lot less dangerous than getting behind the wheel of your car. And of course suicides are more puzzling phenomenon. But as I've looked across counties in the US we see a strong connection between say teen suicide rates and hunting licenses per capita. So it may very well be in psychological evidence also suggests that this sort of gun gun availability in outside of urban areas makes suicide more more common there. My guest is Ed Glaeser he is the author of Triumph of the city how our greatest invention that being the city makes us richer smarter greener healthier and

happier. He's a professor at Harvard and a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute. Now I want to make the point though and our number is 8 7 7 3 1 8 9 7 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 8 9 7 8. We want you to get in on this conversation. You are an economist. That's usually what you think about studies looking at cities. It's not people in your arena. They're social scientists there's medical folks. But an economist doesn't typically take on the whole of the city maybe a slice of it in some way. So I wonder if you'd share with our listeners some of the stats you began to do that that are just interesting from an economists viewpoint about why cities are better. So you know we can start with just the straight productivity differences between dense areas and less dense areas between urbanized countries and non urbanized countries so if you compare across the world those countries that are more than 50 percent urbanized with those countries that are less than 50 percent urbanized the Morgans countries have per capita incomes that over five times higher.

And they have infant mortality rates that are less than a third as high. So really this enormous gap in the development process the economic development process is clearly intimately tied to the urbanization process the two things really go together enormously tightly. Countries there's basically no such thing as a poor urbanized country no such thing as a rich as a rich largely rural country within the US as well there's a strong connection between urban density and both productivity measures and income measures. But one of the most interesting facts is that workers who come to cities don't experience all those wage gains immediately. What you see when people come to cities is a faster rate of wage growth. You see Year by year month by month their wage gap increasing between them people who are not living in metropolitan areas with big cities. And when they leave the city they actually take those wage gains with them and I think that's most compatible with the view that cities are places of human capital accumulation the places where we learn to become more productive by being exposed to this maelstrom of economic activity. A lot of my own work on cities has been about the factors that predict city growth and

particularly skills are incredibly important explaining why cities like Boston manage to come back. While other cities like Buffalo did not. And skills also were strongly associated with earnings in cities in metropolitan areas if you compare across metropolitan areas is the share of the population in that metropolitan area with a college degree increases by 10 percent. People's wages people's incomes on average go up by 8 percent holding their own skills constant. So holding your own education constant as the share of people around you with a college degree goes up by 10 percent your wages go up by on average eight percent which just tells us how incredibly important skills are for the success for the health of a city and how important of course they are for the health and success of our country. OK. We have a caller Mary from Mansfield Massachusetts you were on the Kelly Crossley Show eighty nine point seven Go ahead please. Hi I was just wondering if you could comment on the issue of having children in the city. My experience I have two small children and it's childcare is just really expensive and the schools are in terms of Boston they're just not as good as you might find in the suburbs.

And my quality of life I just think it's better in the suburbs with a house and a yard than what I could even afford. Closer to the city for that same setup and I can take my call off the air like thank you very much Mary. So how do you respond. Oh you must hear this. Indeed I don't I know it's not just that I hear it I live it. So it's a one of the things that I discuss in the book is is my own decision about five years ago when I started acquiring small children. You can tell I'm economist right only sort of wiring a small shelter but I too started acquiring small children my wife and I left in our case Cambridge and moved out to a suburb. And I'm not trying to tell anyone who has made the same choices I did that they've made the wrong choice or they should you know pick up and. Switch gears after all I'm an economist I'm not a lifestyle consultant. I am trying to fight back against those government policies that push people artificially into cities and that includes subsidization of highways and that includes our you know subsidization of home or home loan ownership as well and maybe will come back to that but most of all

I think it concerns schools and schools are so important in the decisions of so many parents to leave urban areas it's very hard to fix urban schools it's the great challenge in some sense of our cities going forward and we've had an incredible focus from people from you know very smart people very competent people you Mayor Menino came in we came into office remember that remember those years. You came in totally dedicated to improving Boston's schools. And he has certainly moved the needle. But the enormous difficulties that he's faced as well as the difficulties faced by Joel Klein in New York someone else why enormously respect. Those difficulties just tell us how hard it is to fix urban urban school districts. I for one take some you know have some hope in the promise offered by charter schools certainly the test score gains shown in Massachusetts have been remarkable for those schools. And you know it's hard not to be you know it's hard not to be incredibly moved by the by the example of Geoffrey Canada has a Promise Academy in the Harlem Children Zone and in some sense the charter schools offer promise because they play to what cities do best

cities are at their heart places of competition and entrepreneurship. And that's why we get great restaurants and cities it's not that you know every person starts a restaurant is great but the successful ones thrive in the bad ones fail. Now think if we replaced a thriving restaurant scene in any city with a single public monopoly which then said there was going to be a food superintendent who's going to deliver food in in canteens around the place. Well we all would guess that food would be pretty bad and we've kind of done that to our schools. Well there's much more with my guest Ed Glaeser. And we are going to get back to a couple of points you just raised after this break. Our number is 877 three one eighty nine seventy if you want to get in on this conversation. My guest is Harvard economist Ed Glaeser. His new book is triumph of the sea. City how are greatest invention makes us richer smarter greener healthier and happier. Listeners tell us where you're living and what it's like what are the pros and cons to where you are. Housing cost transportation access to good food 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8 7 7 3 0 1 89

70. We'll be back after the break. Keep your dial on eighty nine point seven. WGBH. Support for WGBH comes from you and from the New England mobile book fair in Newton for 54 years. New England's independent bookstore the New England mobile book fair find them online at an e-book fair dot com. That's an e-book fair dot com and from Boston private banking Trust Company Boston private bank provides private and commercial banking and investment management and trust services to individuals and businesses. You can learn more by visiting Boston private bank dot com and from Celtic Thunder. Back again with a new show called Heritage Celtic Thunder returns to WGBH singing contemporary and traditional Irish music. Don't miss Celtic Thunder heritage tonight at 7:30 on WGBH to.

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What impact has the economy had on Massachusetts. I'm Bob C.. Join me for where we live. The financial state of our cities and towns of Massachusetts weekday mornings this week at 7:30 on eighty nine point seven WGBH. I'm Kalee Crossley This is the Calla Crossley Show. We're talking about the role of the city and how it's intertwined with civilization. With my guest Harvard economist Ed Glaeser. His new book is triumph of the city how our greatest invention makes us richer smarter greener healthier and happier. And listeners we want to hear from you. Where are you someone who grew up in a small town who was dying to make it to the big city. What's your take on cities do you see them as buzzing hubs that give humanity a boost. Or as filthy crime ridden places with bad schools and an affordable housing 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 and you can send us a tweet or write to our Facebook page and we have a number of calls lined

up. Professor Glaser but I want to ask you this question to sort of put some things in current context. The census data just came out and both looking at it across the country and in Massachusetts a number of cities have lost population. And in Massachusetts a significant Much has been made of quote unquote white flight to suburbs in other cities and also of the increase in the number of minorities around the town. But my point is that the density is being reduced in some areas and that's the key to your book is that density makes the difference. What's your response to the data. Well the first fact for Massachusetts is that Boston population grew by 4.8 percent over the last 10 years more than the state as a whole. And that's the first time that's happened since the 1870s. So on one level I think you know the census data confirms the enormous vitality at the Urban heart of the Bay State. That of course is not universally true across America's cities. The census also told us about the 25 percent decline reported in Detroit which is an

extraordinary shift and the case in Massachusetts has not been even but wester for example grew at an even faster clip than Boston did which again is sort of a fairly remarkable fact now. There are a lot of things that are going on there one. One part of it is the economic vitality of Boston that we've already talked about. But another reason why these cities are growing is that for poor people cities actually offer a lot and I think that's one of the mistaken reasons why cities get a bad rap is that they actually have a fair amount of poverty. And the reason why I think it's a mistake to give cities around a bad rap because of their poverty is because cities don't make people poor cities attract poor people they attract poor people with economic opportunity with the promise of a better life with social networks with better social services and with the ability to get around without a car for every adult. And if you think about an immigrant family coming to Massachusetts thinking about a suburban lifestyle with all of its cars with all of its space with all of that stuff is just makes very little sense relative to the compact living that's offered in Boston or or more

affordably in Worcester. And I think that's one reason why this change has occurred is that cities are actually doing what they always have done which is they've been pathways into the country places that people can come either out of rural areas into into cities or tell the story of Richard Wright coming to Chicago in the 100 in the 1000 20s for example and that in the book but also places where immigrants come into the country and that's that's part of the thing that cities do best and something that we should celebrate about cities not denigrate about them. Some of the research I actually talk about in the book shows the poverty rate goes up the poverty rates go up in areas that surround places that build new subway stops. Now that obviously I mean it isn't because subway stops are making anybody poor it's because those subway stops are just good for poor people that's not something to be proud of. Well I think this first caller will probably have something to say to you about that. Courtney from Johnston Rhode Island Go ahead please. Yeah I find that in general the idea of your book I think it's great to get all the benefits of living in a city I've lived both in a modern city of Columbus Ohio and now I live out of Providence and I do find that if the city

invested with the public transportation that people flock to it like myself. We live in a suburb but if I didn't have a family and some other things going on I would definitely live in the downtown in the City area. I think it's great for you know the convenience and being able to pull yourself up financially with Career and jobs and affordability. However I wonder if some cities aren't having success because their politicians aren't investing in the public transportation and some of the infrastructure attracting more business. I think for Rhode Island Our problem is a lot of people are leaving businesses wise tax breaks and all and I'm afraid that will hurt the cities in the long run what do you think about that. OK thank you very. As for the call Courtney. Thank you for that very very thoughtful question. In Columbus Ohio is certainly one of the success stories of the Midwest.

I think it's excess actually tells more the importance of human capital than it does actually physical capital of infrastructure. Although both are clearly important in growing areas. But Columbus Ohio of course is the home of Ohio State which has been such a huge center for business activity in that in that state. And again if you look across the cities in the in the country the thing that really matters most is the share of the population with college degrees in 1070 in terms of explaining which cities have come back and which cities have have not and that that continues to be true in New England as well. And is she right about that public transportation. I think we need to be a little bit worried about very very expensive investments in them so Detroit for example I think made a mistake during this downturn by focusing too much on first structures on urban renewal in the 50s and 60s and I think it made a mistake by focusing on rail transit in the in the 80s and the People Mover was a big mistake. So you agree with the governor in Florida saying no to the money to build the. Well that that's a difficult you know that's a difficult case as well that the high speed rail is a

challenge in Florida because we built those cities around the car. So the idea that you can just take the rail from one city to the other in just you know walk from there to some final some final place that's hard to imagine in Orlando so I think there's a lot to be said for improvements in say rail infrastructure in New England in cities that actually have densities where you literally you know you get out of South Station and you get on the TV and you get someplace else quickly or you walk to your final destination in much of the Sun Belt that's a lot harder to harder to achieve. So it's not that you know I think it's a mistake to have sort of a dichotomous view on rail or any form of transportation you want to be smart about it right you want to use cost benefit analysis and be serious about it's not that it's always bad or always good. It went where it's you know where the demand is high where can do a lot it certainly should be invested in. But we should also be wary about projects like the people mover where you know the whole market declining cities is they have a lot of infrastructure and people relative to the infrastructure and and structures relative to the state of demand. And we don't need a people mover monorail to glide over essentially empty streets when you could put those people on buses going perfectly quickly I think that's that's that's I think the challenge for

declining areas and thinking it's going to fix that decline with infrastructure. OK. We're at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Paul from Wellesley you're on eighty nine point seven the Calla Crossley Show Go ahead please. Yes thank you for taking my call. I am an example of someone who left the city of Boston because of the school issue. My wife and I we have three children in elementary school and we were living in the city of Boston and even we will our final decision to move to the suburbs was based upon that. That even if we got into a school that we really liked and we could make it work in the elementary and high school level. The fact is there isn't really a neighborhood based school system and we have been pleasantly surprised in the suburbs that it's a really bond between all the neighbors. Everyone has their kids to the local school. Now I will admit that it comes with much sacrifice as an adult I miss the stimulation of the city but overall I think we made the right move

with the kids. But I'll just take my answer off the air thank you very much. Thank you very much. Paul from Wellesley where 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. What do you think about that. I think Paul's decision could not possibly be more understandable more natural I mean what's more important to you know to a family than that it's children and making the decisions that invest in their children's education could be more important. The tragedy of course is there's nothing intrinsically there's no intrinsic reason why cities can't have great schools right in many parts of the world they do have great schools. It's that America has a system which has penalize urban parents and push those parents out from urban areas to outlying areas. I grew up in New York City and I was an only child which enabled my parents to put me through or through a private school and that was that was great but if I had had more siblings we would have we would have left and I would have missed the incredible advantages that I think I got by being a kid in a in a big city enabling myself to enjoy those all those experiences.

Well I think that's a little bit like what our Facebook commenter said this is from Amy she says I'm sorry to hear your guest a Harvard economists say you left Cambridge because of the schools I chose to move to Cambridge for the schools and other amenities. The vibrancy and the fact that I really couldn't imagine raising my biracial moderate income kid in the suburbs. My son now 9 is thriving thanks to the schools the afterschool programs and the camps he goes on. But her last line is the middle class and upper middle class including academics like your guest need to embrace our public institutions not flee them. You want to respond. Well the you know the decision to move outside is that you know these are individual decisions and I'm not you know I'm I'm certainly trying to put myself up to some ideal in any in any way shape or form. And I certainly could not agree more with the view that we need to embrace schools for our children. I think the future of America depends upon it. And I think it's wonderful that the commenters staying in Cambridge and embracing the public schools then I think that that's

terrific. We need to you know have a national a national movement that it embraces the importance of human capital and in educating our children. All right we have a caller Laurie from Carver. You're on eighty nine point seven the Calla Crossley Show Go ahead please. Oh I'm calling because my my son who is a freshman in high school now he goes to the doctor not the cademy which is an excellent school. And we you know we live in Cairo but he now lives at this other end. And I thought that was just going to be devastating for him the inner city schools. But what I've come to find out what it is is the opportunity is just unbelievable for the youth in the city Ofsted and the programs are excellent. I mean today he has an interview at Franklin Park to do but if Obama and I mean just the program and the school itself the diversity that he has in his life he would never have received in small towns of Karbala and I just think that the

opportunity is so much more that my husband and I are actually talking about where a biracial couple talking about trying to maybe move to this city for our younger children because the opportunity of an so great for him so well what's Carter like now for you know your city your son into Boston but what's carver like to live in for you. Well you know it's really it's really small small town and there's just not a lot for the kids to do like there's no you Sandra. I mean outside of the playground next to the library there's nothing especially for the teenagers and so what the teenagers are doing a lot of the teenagers are getting into drugs and alcohol and and there's just no program for that. Nothing you know I would love. Kind of like a youth center or something so big that the kids do but the kids don't have anything. You know they're turning to drugs really young and I'm just grateful that that would not be yeah that's not what the Behring thing and it's been so good so

great development. Thank you very much Laurie for the call I'll get my guest to respond. And by the way my guest is Ed Glaeser He's a professor at Harvard. His book is triumph of the city how are greatest invention makes us richer smarter greener healthier and happier. Have you as you know your book you've been talking a lot about your book. Are you getting in other places as much comment about the schools being the driving force around whether people live in cities or not in this country certainly I just came off a week in the U.K. in England two weeks ago and they're amazingly Of course it didn't come up. And of course they have a different school system and for them parents are perfectly happy to stay in London because actually they can get good schools and it only underscores how important this is. But I love the I love the fact that your last commentary your last your last question. Points out how much how much there is to like in an urban childhood and also tall tales about all the tremendous work that the Menino administration has put into the schools and trying to create more opportunity there and I think that that's that something that really does need to be lauded. And I would

just say as a parent I certainly work very hard to get my kids into the city as often as possible. You know I certainly believe that urban experience is a great part of growing up whether or not it's just to the waterworks Museum in. I guess that's in Newton when it went in yesterday wouldn't it for its opening which is just great sort of seeing a great piece of urban infrastructure that reminds you how much work it took to actually make cities cities livable. So I couldn't really want to underscore that sense that came out of the last question. Now one of the things I mean we've been talking a lot about policy and how it impacts educational systems. They're quality both in the suburbs and in the city but in your book you make it clear that some regulations or you think are undermining city's growth potential particularly building regulations. I do I think that cities have have overregulated themselves over time and that when you think about the population growth in a city that's really a reflection of the number of homes that were built in that city. It's very if you don't build homes the city is not going to grow. And when a city is successful when it's economically vibrant when the enormous capacity of urban areas to generate

pleasure as well as productivity is brought to the fore because of safety and because of the entrepreneurship of individual restaurateurs and so on then cities would grow if they would build. But we have a very difficult maze of zoning regulations that makes it very hard to grow. Boston actually and again I give the mayor credit for this. The mayor the mayor the mayor a Boston added eight point two percent its housing stock grew by a point two percent of the last decade the 4.8 percent population growth is unthinkable without that New York City which experience much less of a population growth over the last decade also had much less of a housing stock growth than these two things are intimately linked. A New York City 15 percent of the land in the Manhattan south of 96 street aside from Central Park is in a Historic Preservation District is sort of frozen in amber. It's always a dangerous thing to do. The pass needs to be protected but we also need to think about the future. Every time you say no to a new project to a new development you say no to families to people would like to move into the city it can't do so. Why can't I have to be remiss if I didn't let you also expound on your theories about

the highway policy in the mortgage because you know mortgages are on the front page everywhere now. So yeah tell us about that before I take these other call. Sure yeah. So America has had a love affair with homeownership which is perhaps understandable because the majority of Americans are homeowners and I've got nothing wrong with that I'm a homeowner myself. But we don't need to have policies that subsidize them we don't need to bribe Americans into owning homes and even worse we don't need to bribe them selves to leverage themselves to the hilt to bet on the vicissitudes of the housing market. Well that part I think everybody would agree with but the the other part everybody would say well that's how people get to the next level of wealth right. Well is that is that what we've experienced over the last decade it seems like we produced a foreclosure society more than we produced in an ownership society. There are lots of other good ways for you to invest your money other than other than your homes and homes are not you know in any sense guaranteed appreciation over time. We should be neutral about this and one of the costs of not being neutral is that we push people out of cities more than 85 percent of single family detached houses are owner occupied more than

85 percent of apartments in multi-unit dwellings are rented. Those two facts go together under so it's understandable if you rent out your single family detached house it tends to depreciate by over 1 percent per year. And if you've got a lot of owners under one roof in a co-op building you have to although the co-op the chaos of a. You know co-op co-op board disagreeing over everything. So structure type and ownership type go together. But then if you're going to push ownership type on everybody if you can bribe everyone to become owners you're basically telling them to leave their urban apartments and pack up and move into a suburban home. And I just don't see why that's the business of federal policy to let people be free to choose whether or not they own or not and I'm not telling anyone that they should know who wants to vote but I don't think we need policies that artificially push people away from urban areas away from density into suburban homes. And then the highway just quickly before I take this new highway that cut into an American city in the post-war period decrease that city's population by 18 percent relative to the overall metropolitan area huge dispersing force of the highway during the latest

stimulus package infrastructure spending was twice as high per capita in our least 10 states as in our most dense States. Right. Why is it exactly that we are you know we think it's so important to you know subsidize people to drive vast distances it seems like that's that's counterproductive from an environmental point of view it's counterproductive from an economic point of view given all the advantages of concentration. And we really should be focused on making sure that the investments that we do make and we do need investments are as smart as they can possibly be and that often means their investments are made where the people are OK. We have a caller Maureen from South Boston you're on eighty nine point seven. Kelly Crossley Show Go ahead please. I want to echo the quote that I live for. And I think we lost everything you know about living in this city. And in this he did the one difficulty is the school system. I have three children and I could go from my house in a circle around the block and the kids go to you know if you go house by house kids all go to different

schools combination child or 3am complex. Try that they're all going in different directions you know and one good thing is that it's because people have known each other for a long time I know a lot of people my whole life. So you do still have a social connection but it certainly weakens it as a close friend and that and I wanted to pass along the concerns I have about the lonely status if births are going on the butt. You're breaking up a little bit more rain but I believe you're said you just want to add some caution about charter schools toward the end so I'm going to get my guest blazer to respond to you thank you so much for the call. And I think caution is always appropriate where kids are concerned. And certainly charter schools need to be regulated they need to be monitored. We need to make sure that they're doing what they what they can do. One of the things that's interesting that's just come out in some recent recent evidence by Tom Kane and Josh angriest on charter schools is that the charter schools in the cities

in Massachusetts have had really big lasting effects on test scores and those effects the reason why we were able to measure them is you're able to look at the lotteries and the lotteries create a really perfect controlled Senate controlled treatment sample of one group that happen to get into the charter and the other school who died and didn't and it's just by luck. So that really enables us to see those test scores in this positive test scores are just incredibly encouraging given how hard it is to move test scores in public school systems. By contrast the charter schools in in non urban locales actually have had little if any impact on test scores which is perhaps a reminder that cities are places that actually are where the charter schools are likely to have the biggest impact. And I think the case for charters is strongest in those public school systems that are failing that are creating problems so the more troubled the school system is the more aggressive I think we should be in inserting the charter school wedge to create more competition and choice within the within the framework. And yet I would also point out Brockton High School. You know huge school they're beating kids all across the state with their scores.

Poverty area all of that stuff so it you know the formula is still being worked out as to exactly what works in any community but again there in the city as well. Here's a comment from our Facebook page Professor Ed Glaeser Nikky says transportation is a situation where supply usually precedes demand. Given increasing ease of use ridership would have continually grown in that state I think that's been my Droid The same is true when schools are perceived as improving rather than deteriorating adding a monorail in Detroit which had been dying probably did not make sense. Florida however is growing getting more dense. Any response. Well the basic point of the question which is that it makes more sense to invest in infrastructure in growing areas rather than declining areas is absolutely correct. The key question is whether or not the infrastructure in question is well matched for the needs of the areas. And the issue with rail in the Sunbelt is that we've built the our urban spaces there around the car. All of our cities were built around the transportation technology that was dominant when they were built and think about

Beacon Hill think about the oldest parts of Boston like the windy streets the narrow streets that are typical of the pedestrian area then think about the the grid areas in newer parts of Boston and then the streetcar suburbs that follow the buses in the street cars and then of course. In the distant suburbs we've built life around the automobile and that's true for great swaths of America. And once you have people having to drive everywhere. The advantages of actually taking rail become a lot lower. That being said I think every investment needs to be taken on a case by case basis needs to be rigorously Valuev a cost benefit analysis and I wouldn't want to make a blanket statement about any form of transportation infrastructure investment anyway. Are you surprised by the kind of response this but I know you're happy about the kind of response your book has gotten. Because I think it's because so many of the things that you posit seem to be counterintuitive and one I have to put on the table here is about the environment that you say blacktop is greener then anything else. Please tell our listeners about this. Sure so in the book I tell an anecdote about a young Harvard graduate in a beautiful spring day in

1844 went for a walk in the woods outside of Concord. And this young Harvard graduate did a little bit of fishing the fishing was good because there hadn't been much rain lately. But when he and his friend came to cook the fish and chatter the wind flicked the flames to the nearby dry grass and the flame spread and soon there was a great inferno that just ate up the woods outside of Concord by the time it was done more than three hundred acres of prime woodland had been burned to the ground. Now during his own day this young man was castigated as an enemy of the environment a conquered Freeman called him a flibbertigibbet which I think was pretty terrible for 1844 and they were right to do so it's hard to think of anyone during his arrow lived in Boston or Cambridge who did as much damage to the environment as as he did. And yet this person is now revered as the secular saint of American environmental ism Henry David Thoreau. Told a message of living around nature and somehow or other that was going to be good for you and perhaps good for nature as well. But his own life tells a very different moral which is we are a

very destructive species and often the best thing that you can do for nature is to stay away from it as indeed the road would have been far kinder to the woods outside of concord if he had stayed home in Cambridge and paid more attention to his books. So I think the book really does take issue with this view that we're doing any good for the environment by moving out there follows. David Owen green metropolis which makes a similar point and indeed I get I don't want to put myself in some kind of a hero when I moved out into the suburbs not all that far away from. Conquered I too ended up doing a lot more damage to the environment because of driving and because larger homes end up using use more energy on average single family detached houses use 88 percent more electricity than urban apartments do in this country. And of course driving goes up greatly when densities are lower. These two things are not at all surprising. Now the biggest stakes for this are in the developing world and if India and China move their carbon emissions levels up to those seen in the US global carbon emissions will see will rise by one hundred twenty seven percent. But if they stop at the level seen in say Hong Kong also rich country global carbon emissions go up by less

than 25 percent it's a big gap. And American sprawl is a bad model at least if we want to keep either because we care about carbon emissions keeping the low or heck if you just care about gas at the pump. What you really want is the people in Shanghai to be building those towers instead of building sprawling suburbs. So that's that's another point that I try to make in the book. Well I think the gasoline is going to get make people look very more much more favorably about living in the city. We have a caller Laura from foul month. You're an eighty nine point seven Go ahead please. Laura Laura from Falmouth are you there. If we can get the men have a bad connection I don't think Laura is there what we missed. All right well our number is 8 7 7 3 0 1 eighty nine seventy eight 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 Laura if that. You know if you tried call back. I'm so sorry we tried 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 that might be she calling back in just a minute. Some of your critics have said you're an economist and

so you're making some conclusions about happiness and quality of life based on the data which is what an economist would do. But maybe that's just not the way that one would assess that. Again a social scientist or maybe even a psychologist is a better fit to do that. How do you respond to that. Well you know and we can be clear about the data it's not as if the data says the people in the US report themselves being happier when they live in cities that's that's not something that comes out of the data it is the data on happiness tell us that there's a relationship across countries between a self-reported happiness levels and urbanization most of that is just because more countries are wealthier. But even controlling for Can national incomes are more innovation tends to be related to more happiness and within most of the countries of the world happiness people say that they're happier when they're living in. In urban areas and that's primarily driven by developed countries and that's another point of the book which is that it is a terrible mistake to glamorize rural poverty in the developing world that this is just not you know this is not something to think has

been delivering some wonderful bucolic life for the people who are living in rural India rural Brazil. And you mention Mumbai specific as well. It's tough living in Mumbai and you know the people who did a lot of walking around disadvantaged areas for this book and no question. Very few of your listeners would want to spend a day relit in a lifetime living in these places. But you need to compare it not with the world that we have here but with the incredible poverty and unchanging deprivation that is so common in the rural world. Cities bring change they bring promise they bring a new a new. New technologies they bring the promise of connection to the outside world. This is it's no surprise that people living in them in much of the world are happier because they are connected in a way that they're just not in rural areas and that's really something to celebrate. But at the end of the day you know if you're looking for for you know if you're looking for yourself or a guide of what's going to make you happy I'm not in that business and I want to make it clear that I'm not in that business. I am in the business of pushing back on those policies which which artificially push people out of out of cities. But I you know I believe in freedom of choice and I believe people should

follow their own hearts no desires. Already Paul from Boston you're an eighty nine point seven the Calla Crossley Show Go ahead please. Hi good afternoon. I have two comments. The first that I did. Agree with much of what you said about highway policy and from a historical perspective if you know we've subsidized highways at the expense of rail freight which is much more energy efficient and at the expense of public transportation systems. But the point I would really want to make is about housing because I think I don't think we can look at this without a historical perspective. In 1933 the Fair Housing Administration was created in between 1933 in 1964. They subsidized housing to two of a hundred twenty billion dollars ninety eight point five percent of which went to whites. It built the suburbs and it's primarily the reason why right now we have a wealth gap between blacks and whites of the 12 times in terms of net worth and so a blanket policy changing that is not a fair policy. All right you want my guest let me let me get my guest to answer that. Professor glaze you want to answer Paul.

Well I think I think you know I agree strongly with the premise that American housing policy has been misguided for a very long period in part because it is very much subsidized suburbs at the expense of cities and we continue to do this to the home mortgage interest deduction and I'm encouraged by the fact that the Federal Housing Finance reform proposal that came for dealing with Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae actually you know said said that you know not every American used to be a homeowner and that's that's you know that's an important thing that we actually don't want to be doing that indeed there's a lot to look back on in terms of the decades of federal housing policy to say this was you know these were terrible mistakes. All right thank you very much for your call Paul. We now have Dana from sandwich. Go ahead please you're an eighty nine point seven and by the way our number is 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 So Dana go ahead please. Thank you very much. You know don't get me wrong. I grew up in the Boston area and suburbs love Boston got spawn memories of it. But this simplistic utopian paradise just seems well unrealistic as most utopian schemes do. At least I can walk down the street at night

where I actually I'm calling to say I wish I actually live in Wellfleet and I can walk there and be safe. I don't have to worry about getting blogged about Rach in the trash. Cities are dirty and there's other reasons for that but I don't know. Just and the crime family which just happen in Chicago they have kids getting beat up after school. High school gangs just too many people per square inch. All right hold on your own one second Dana let's let Professor Ed Glaeser author of Triumph of the city respond. Nowhere in my book or my calmest I mean to sugarcoat the city and make its make it appear as if density doesn't have its downsides of two people or close enough to exchange an idea that close enough to infect each other with a contagious disease and if two people are close enough to sell someone a newspaper they're close enough to rob each other. These downsides of density have been things that you know cities governments have battled with for millennia and it's an enormously hard fight and I talked about the provision of clean water in more recent decades we've had to deal with the issue of crime which is an enormous challenge for urban areas.

Now the truth of the matter is the cities have become vastly safer over the past 30 years certainly the difference between Boston today and New York today in the city streets that I remember when I was a kid growing up is quite palpable. And it certainly shows up in you know decline in the murder rates. But there are there are two reasons why I think we shouldn't think of ourselves as having won that battle one of which is that in many areas crime rates remain stubbornly high and we really can't forget even if even if it's straight safe walking down Newbury Street we can't forget that the children who are growing up and in tough areas and the second reason is that oftentimes cities become safe by imprisoning vast numbers of young of young people particularly particularly young men. And I think we all. I devoutly hope for a solution for a crime problems that involve less incarceration as well not give those you know give more freedom as well as at the same time we're trying to make city streets safer So those are still big challenges that are left on the table. But the punch line is that cities do need effective government to handle those downsides of density and there's a reason why people in Boston like government more than people Montana do they need it more. And that continues to be a

challenge going forward but I think that from a policy perspective that calls for better policies better government not for saying that everyone should live in a in a low density area. OK very good. Let's see we have Paul from what stir your ninety nine point seven WGBH Go ahead please. Dr. Glaser very stimulating discussion. One major trend I haven't heard posted on is the aging of the population. What I sense is. Baby boomers with 3000 lawyers are turning 65 every day are going to be looking for a way to connect with the city. They're going to be looking for solutions. Transportation is more than have to give up the keys to the car and they have a lot to contribute to the educational system and everything else just your comments and wonder if we can solve the safety problem. Can we see the influx of older people who have a lot of resources to contribute to the further growth of our cities. I think you're exactly right I think I think you've hit the nail on the head also the safety issue I think one of the reasons why older

people have shot in cities historically is precisely because they were afraid of being mugged or around. But in fact in the absence of that issue cities are great places to be retired they're great places to be older in part as you said because of the car related issue. So I think this is exactly right and I think that the aging the population offers a lot of promise for our urban areas certainly on a personal note I would say that I'm counting the days and fortune is still very far off till till the day in which my youngest child graduates from high school where nothing will stop me from moving into a studio apartment in in a city subway. Professor Glaser I'm one appalled that answer your question. Yes thank you. OK thank you very much Rico. I am wondering a question that just struck me as I read your book why you're so passionate about this subject but but what drew you to the topic. Oh I think it's a combination of. My own personal history I mean in some sense my father was an architectural historian my mother I read financial

markets for Mobil Oil right so naturally this produced an economist who is interested in cities so there's And I think that the experience of the city growing growing up also helped do that also helped push me towards that. But then of course I just got I was part of the University of Chicago in the 1980s it was a real focus on the transmission of ideas as being the wellspring of economic growth is the work of Paul Romer and Bob Lucas. And that naturally led toward cities and led to his thinking about the role that cities have played over time and actually generating the flowering of our of our civilization our economies and I think that those are the things that drew me in. All right. Ralph from Rhode Island Go ahead please you're on the callee Crossley Show. I just wanted to show the difference. My wife and I have made a conscious decision to move this upwards. We wanted them to grow up in a smaller area. We also had to make some sacrifices. And that is we had to drive them everywhere sports school what have you. I what I thought was absolutely fascinating is my children who are now in their early 20s

they were sort of moved back to the city. And all the excitement of the city. Yeah I just find it absolutely fascinating. They want to make the change. Thank you thank you very much Ralph. What do you think of it I think it is it is fascinating and it just shows the diversity of human taste and the fact that some people want wants wants cities and some people don't but there are two other points that are important here first of all cities are great places to be young and single mostly because there are just a ton of other young young single people so that's that's certainly yeah yeah yeah. And the other thing I think it's also important is that cities and that's one of the points of the book is these really have changed that. The city that you remember the Bostons remember from 1905 or a 1985 is not the Boston of 2011 and that's that's the sort of broader change that has made cities more cities become more livable more exciting more dynamic than ever and that's something to celebrate. What one other than the density and the fabulousness of cities what else would you want people to take away from this book that you think is central to people beginning to rethink cities. As you've just explained.

Well I think it's certainly focusing on the barriers to building I think is important rethinking the fact that not every time that someone says no to a building either for environmental alleged environmental reasons or a legit preservationist reasons are they doing a good thing so. So understanding that in fact the future of America the shaping of America is being made by local land use restrictions is actually important this is a lot of the reason why I say Texas is growing so much as they just allow so much building even though that you know GDP per capita output is higher here. Housing prices are a lot higher here. And yet we are growing very little in part it's because Massachusetts has made it so difficult to build particular in the suburban suburban areas. I think another another. You know if there's a largest message here is that we are this social species and cities are important because they play to this thing that is so essential within us. And I think it's just so important to remember how much we learn from the people around us and how much we gain from those those social connections. Thank you very much Professor Glaeser. I've been speaking with economist Ed Glaeser. He's a professor at Harvard senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute and author of a new book

Triumph of the city how our greatest invention makes us richer smarter greener healthier and happier. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. We've been talking to Ed Glaeser about the city and you can find out more about him by reading that fabulous book. In the meantime you can keep on top of the Calla Crossley Show at WGBH dot org slash Calla Crossley follow us on Twitter or become a fan of the Calla Crossley Show on Facebook. Today Show was interviewed by Jane pic and produced by Chelsea Myers. Well Rose lip and Abbey Ruzicka were production of WGBH radio Boston's NPR station or news and culture.