American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with Rev. J. Phillips Noble, 2 of 2

[Interviewer] Guess I want to talk about that in the context of you not being rich and that in some ways, for so many people the superiority was what they had. [Noble] Well we weren't rich at all and it was a struggle, I remember my parents and it was a real struggle but for instance, it was during the depression, I remember my father bought a car, and it was only new car I think he ever had, and he didn't get to keep it but a few months because they couldn't make payments on it, had to turn it back in and I remember the agonies that my father felt when he went to the bank to try to-- the way the system worked, the white folks, the owners, would go to the bank, they would loan the money to make the crop on the year, you see, and then the sharecroppers at the end would collect if there's anything that's left over. Well my father went to the bank that he'd been doing

business with and the depression had gotten so severe, they wouldn't furnish him that year. And I remember his agony in not knowing what he was going to be able to do, so no, we were not rich at all, but we certainly felt, unfortunately, the superiority of the race. [Interviewer] What do you mean? You-- tell me that again, what do you mean, you felt the superiority? [Noble] Well the black people on the farm and the black people we came in touch with, they weren't educated, they were not cultured, they well, you know, I don't know what to say, but you put them in a different row, a different place, no question about it, it was up here and down there and there wasn't any question about that, unfortunately. [Interviewer] So for many whites this-- because they were so poor,

this was one thing that they had to hold onto. Was it? [Noble] I don't know that they looked at it that way, I don't know that they looked at that way. It was just the way it was and they had grown up in a segregated society, heavily segregated society, and they just went on living as best they could except in that as a reality, not really questioning, most people never really questioned it, and I don't think many blacks questioned it, though I know there was a great deal of resentment and seething feeling about things many times, you could see that. [Interviewer] But you don't think they questioned it. [Noble] What? [Interviewer] You don't think black people questioned it, what do you-- [Noble] Well they, by and large,I think they just accepted it as the reality. They didn't like it, I'm sure they didn't like it, but there wasn't much they could do about it. [Interviewer] One thing you said to me before, and I'd love for you to

kind of repeat this, was you said that people ate, slept, and breathed it, without thinking about it, I loved it, the way it came out, I guess it's part of the writer in you. Tell me about-- [Noble] Well that's it, when we came into the world the situation was set rigid and hard, severe segregation, and we grew up with that, we played with our black friends, but we always knew that there was a difference. To give you one illustration in playing with our black friends, we would hit one another as my brother and I fought a good bit, we fought one another, but [Les?] Sanders would never do that to us, though we might do it to him and that shows you sort of how the situation was. But we-- it was just a part of life, we didn't know anything else and they didn't know anything else, that's the way we'd lived

all the time as we were growing up, and it was only later when some of us got out of that that we recognized what was happening back then. I think one of the things that is so interesting about the Freedom Rides, one of the things that they wanted to do and I think did, was make people think about it and make people make a choice, that there were people who were hard-line racist that were never going to change, but there were a lot of people that you're describing who never thought, that's just the way things were, but all of a sudden you see people who were willing to die, willing to get beat up, or willing to go to prison so talk about the way the Freedom Rides made people think about-- people who had never thought before, white people had never thought before, about segregation. [Noble] There's no question but that events like the Freedom Riders brought to the forefront the horrors of

segregation and what was happening to the black folks in society. And the white people, being mindful of that, knew that they had to decide whether they were going to try to keep it that way or whether they would be willing for some change to occur. And having just grown up in a society as we talked previously and just taking anything for granted, they could no longer take it for granted. Their consciousness was aroused to see what was happening and see how the black people were suffering and what their needs were and what their demands were and it was that and all the other events that happened in terms of civil rights with Martin Luther King, all of that, made people-- put the people in a position where they did have to decide what their stance was going to be about the racial issue and it had not been brought to the forefront in their living, you know, in prior years, in their prior younger years.

Does that make sense? [Interviewer] That was great, that was perfect because I think just to reiterate, they hadn't had to make a choice, they hadn't had to think about it before. [Noble] That's right. For instance, to show you my journey in terms of that, or I told you how I grew up and all that, and I had never eaten at the table with a black person until I was a Pastor in Anniston and I was elected to the board of Stillman College, black college in Tuscaloosa, Alabama and when I went there there, there were professors, black professors, black businessmen, that were on the board, and women who were in teaching positions, and I sat down at the table, all the board members did, and I was aware this is the first time I had really done that

and it was a real growing experience for me, it really was a wonderful growing and sort of a liberating experience for me to do that and to be aware that there are people who are black people who were just as competent as the white people and just as accomplished in their lives, intelligent, cultured, and just due all the respect that white people were due, and that was a wonderful thing. [Interviewer] Can we cut for a second? [cut] It was totally rigid? [Noble] It was it was totally rigid. We spoke like Governor William Winter before and he was stationed at Fort McClellan right outside of Anniston there during the war, and he would associate with black people as officers and camaraded and all that, and they would go into town, maybe ride

along in a car together and he couldn't, the black person couldn't go to the movie with him, couldn't go to the restaurant and eat dinner with him, and that was sort of the beginning, as William Winter says, of his being aware of how bad this sort of situation was. [Interviewer] Let's stop for a second-- [cut] sitting down anywhere with a black person, I never would have thought just it was, you said it was totally rigid, tell me how for you it was totally rigid. [Noble] Well, I'll give you a little illustration, in talking about the eating. Growing up on the farm we had a black person who was doing some cooking for us and they lived right across the road from us, and we as children we'd be around playing, we'd be in their homes at various times, and I remember one time she offered us some cornbread and I remember I took a bite of that cornbread, ate some of that cornbread and then

later I felt, "my, I shouldn't have done that," you know, it-- white folks don't eat in black folks' houses. That's how way down to the grassroots, that's simply the way it was like that. No black person could ever have a job in an office or a store, unless it was a black-owned store and that sort of thing. The black people would tend to get off the sidewalk in respect to the white people. It just was terrible. [Interviewer] Okay, I want to get onto the Freedom Rides here. [Noble] That's what this is about, isn't it. [Interviewer] It's also about, we have to put the Freedom Rides in context, it's really important. Do you remember, you were talking a minute ago when you heard about the Freedom Rides, and what did you hear in Anniston before they got there?

[Noble] Well it was, it simply was on the news about Freedom Riders and so we knew they were coming and coming through Anniston and we wondered what would happen. Knowing that Anniston was sort of the hotbed of Ku Klux Klan and we suspected that there might be violence because one of the leaders in the Ku Klux Klan had been known to be violent on many occasions, even when prior to the civil rights thing Nat King Cole was singing in a performance on the stage in Birmingham and one of our people, Kenneth Adams, attacked him on the stage simply because he was a black person and no one wanted him to be in that kind of position. So that was the heritage of Anniston in terms of violence and later when the city commission appointed a biracial community which was partly as a result of the Freedom Riders coming, the mayor said to me,

he said "if the racial situation can be solved without violence in Anniston, it can be solved anywhere in America," he said, "I grew up on the west side among them and I know how violent they are." [Interviewer] Talk about, again, just the-- Anniston had a reputation and so these riders are headed down there, they're headed into what? What was Anniston's reputation? [Noble] Anniston reputation was they were hard segregationers and as the Ku Klux Klan was right dominant in the society and as they came through, the Freedom Riders came through Atlanta and they were talking to Martin Luther King, he told them he didn't think they were going to get through Alabama, he knew how serious it was, and Anniston simply proved that he was right. [Interviewer] I heard that

Anniston, in Anniston, in some ways the Klan ruled, in Anniston the Klan was part of everything in Anniston. [Noble] I don't think that was true. They were there and they were oftentimes violent but where they came in to-- where they came into play in regards to the white community, the white community as the civil rights thing proceeded, following the Freedom Riders-- [Interviewer] We're not going to go into that, the film was going to-- The Freedom Riders aren't there, you hear about the Freedom Riders coming to Anniston, what did you think? [Noble] Well I thought that we were going to have trouble, I didn't think they'd be able to get through. [Interviewer] One of the things that always struck me was

why were white people in Anniston, Birmingham, so vehemently opposed to the Freedom Riders? Because on one level what they're doing is just sitting on a bus, "okay, they're just sitting on a bus," what was it that white people saw that they were so opposed to? [Noble] Prejudice is a horrible thing and when you grow up with strong prejudice like that then you tend to react more severely than you would otherwise and this was a change. The whole society, southern society, had been so heavily segregated and if these people were able to be successful in doing what they were wanting, then other things

would follow, the white people would-- other things would follow. So they were not-- they were not willing for society to be changed to where the black people would be on a par with the white people. That's the basic thing that was there. One of the people on this human relations council which you don't want me to go into, but he said, "I'm not--" he served on the human relations council, but he said, "I'm not going to be a part of dismantling the segregation system in the south." And that was the attitude general attitude of the whites. [Interviewer] Do you remember what you, when you first heard that there was trouble in Anniston, Birmingham, with the Freedom Riders, do you remember what you first heard about the trouble? [Noble] I probably first heard it on the radio, on television. Well I thought it was terrible, thought it was awful. And I thought it was horrible that Anniston did what it did. [Interviewer] We talked a little bit about this, what was the general feeling afterwards, from the white population, very general terms about the white population in Anniston? [Noble] Well

any generalization, that doesn't cover the whole thing, so when I say the general situation was that the whites said they would think they got what they deserved, because they were outside agitators, so to speak, they got what they deserved and they would think, "I'm not sorry that it happened, but I'm sorry it happened in Anniston." Now, not everybody felt that way and a lot of people who were in favor of segregation would be outraged at the severity of the attack on the Freedom Riders in Anniston. [Interviewer] And those were the people that we talked about before, the people that could be wooed. [Noble] Yeah, absolutely. The extreme violence in Birmingham and

Selma and the bus burning there is what brought about an ultimate solution to the racial situation in Anniston because they reacted against the violence, even though they were in favor of segregation and they didn't want the violence to occur and therefore they'd be willing to make changes and make some progress to keep violence from occurring. And one of the reasons they didn't want violence to occur is because it affected their business and all of that in economics in the society in the town. [Interviewer] I want to ask you that again, but because we're-- this is about the Freedom Rides, and it exists in a period of time, we haven't gotten to Birmingham and Selma, so I want you to say as you feel comfortable, say it in your words, but that the violence in Anniston and Birmingham, may--

I think made some people start thinking about the severity of segregation, and how in some ways black people weren't okay with it, so talk about how what happened with the Freedom Riders in Anniston, Birmingham, made people start to think a little bit-- or at least start to think. [Noble] Well when the Freedom Riders came, it did cause everybody to think about their position on segregation and the fact that this violence occurred there would make them realize that changes were going to be very difficult to make but some people with a conscience felt like something really needed to be done. [Interviewer] For some people in the community, do you think it might have been-- for some people in the community it might have been even the first time that they were

forced to think in a different way about segregation and especially about the way that that black people looked at it, they were willing to fight and die and get on a burning bus, and now people started to look at it differently, or even just look at it for the first time. [Noble] Well of course there was a lot going on in civil rights before the Freedom Riders so peoples' consciousness was beginning to be there and be developed but this was a dramatic thing that caused them to have to think about it and make decisions about it. [Interviewer] Let's pause for a second. Sound like I'm not doing that. One of the things [cut] We hear so much about the black churches and Martin Luther King and that, what was happening in white churches? [Noble] White churches were in tension because they were afraid that black people were going to come to the door

and want to be seated. And depending on the denomination and what their system of government was, for instance in the presbyterian church the session which is governing the church, they would have to decide whether they were going to seat them or not, and there was a great deal of tension in most, many sessions didn't want to seat them at all and they would have people standing at the door to try to keep the black people from coming and congregations were divided, often very divided over that issue. Some were willing for them to come, while some said, "no, they don't belong in here." [Interviewer] Let's talk just a little about the white southern press. What was the white southern press' reaction to the Freedom Riders, how did the press look at the Freedom Riders? [Noble] Well it again that's a mixed bag because in Anniston the press was a little bit more progressive than the community was and

so we had some good support along that line. But in the many other places the press was very bad in terms of opposing and highlighting the bad things that were taking place and the bad characteristics of the black people, they would talk about that. [Interviewer] What was the, you talked about it before, I want to get it again, what was the reaction for white people in Anniston after the Mothers' Day riots, what were the white people saying? [Noble] You mean the Mothers' Day riots in connection with the bus burning, Freedom Riders? Well they were saying that-- [Interviewer] My question isn't going to be there, so you have to say something about the white people, who was saying it? [Noble] Ok ok. The general attitude of the white, and as I've said before that generalizations don't always cover the situation adequately, but the general feeling was that they deserved it. If they were going to

get on the buses and come like that knowing what they were getting into, they deserved that sort of thing, they felt that. But they were not-- they were not glad that it happened in Anniston. They said, "I'm glad it happened, but I'm sorry it happened in Anniston," because of the bad publicity nationwide that Anniston would get in regard to it. [Interviewer] How do you think the rides changed Anniston or Alabama or you? [Noble] The rides changed it for me because that resulted, that kind of violence resulted in the city commission wanting to find a way to solve the issues in Anniston without violence and that led to the appointing of a bi-racial human relations council of which they asked me to be chair. [Interviewer] What was the general feeling when the Freedom Riders finally were able to leave, they go to Anniston they burned the bus, they go to Birmingham they get beat up, they go to Montgomery they get

trapped in a church. When the Freedom Riders finally got on those buses that got them from Birmingham to the Mississippi border, what was the feeling now? [Noble] They were relieved that they were leaving Anniston and what-- "you gonna see how Mississippi was gonna treat them," since Mississippi had its reputation of being so severe. And they did have that serious problem in Mississippi. The lady that y'all interviewed before said she was in Parchman in prison in Mississippi at one point. But they were relieved that they were getting out of Anniston. [Interviewer] Let me ask you just to start that with "when the Freedom Riders finally left Alabama," because my question won't be there. So [Noble] Well when they finally left Alabama there was great relief that we don't have that problem anymore, but they knew that there would be

trouble farther down the way. [Interviewer] Why? [Noble] Why was there relief? Well just because they wouldn't be having to deal with the violence that was taking place in Anniston. Wouldn't have to have more violence as a result of them being here because if they had stayed or done this continually there would've been continued violence. [Interviewer] And there was thought to be trouble ahead in Mississippi? [Noble] Oh absolutely. [Interviewer] Tell me that. [Noble] Well there was going to be trouble in Mississippi because everybody knew had Mississippi and Alabama were two of the most segregated states in the nation and the attitude of Mississippians was that "we simply are not going to tolerate it under any shape, form, or fashion." [Interviewer] Okay, let's cut. Great. [PA] This is room tone.