WGBH Radio; The Callie Crossley Show

I'm Cally Crossley This is the Cali Crossley Show. So many American places have a crime drama they can call their own. New Jersey has the Sopranos the Aloha State has Hawaii Five-O Baltimore of the wire now Hartford Connecticut could join the club with a hard boiled crime drama called the Second District. For city bearing the slogan the insurance capital of the world. Hartford seems an unlikely place where hood drama police procedurals and gang warfare erupt on roughneck streets. But could that be the point to show a side of Hartford few people know. We'll find out when we talk to the force behind this TV endeavor. Hartford police officer Mark Manson But first we look at the consequences of law enforcement using facial recognition software. And from there we get the lowdown on an app that lets citizens record their encounters with cops. Up next CSI New England. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi Singh. President Obama's

visit to Delaware's Dover Air Force Base this hour is a somber one he's paying respects to the troops who were killed in a downed helicopter in Afghanistan over the weekend and we have the latest now from NPR's Ari Shapiro. The Chinook helicopter crash was the deadliest single incident for U.S. forces in Afghanistan since the war began a decade ago. Thirty Americans were killed almost two dozen of them Navy SEALs. President Obama said Monday the loss is a reminder of the risks that men and women in uniform take every day. I know that our troops will continue the hard work of transitioning to a stronger Afghan government and ensuring that Afghanistan is not a safe haven for terrorists. We will press on and we will succeed. Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Mike Mullen and Defense Secretary Leon Panetta also traveled to Dover for the ceremony. The remains arrived as unidentified until the armed forces Mortuary Affairs Office at Dover can make a positive identification. Ari Shapiro NPR News traveling with the president.

On Wall Street stocks are up trading described as robust a major switch from yesterday when we saw the numbers plunge at last check the Dow is up one point four percent or one hundred fifty four points ten thousand nine hundred sixty four so it is below that 11000 mark. Nasdaq up 2.9 percent to twenty four twenty seven as simpy 500 up 2 percent at eleven forty three. Investors still cautious that all could change with the Federal Reserve makes an announcement about an hour from now possibly signaling its intentions for addressing the slowing economic growth. As NPR's Margot Adler explains the Federal Reserve has been meeting today in a policy statement is expected around 2:15 p.m. But many analysts are not sure what tools the Fed has left at its disposal. Gold continues to rise. And another downbeat report from the Labor Department today showing that U.S. workers were less productive for the second quarter in a row. Productivity declined by point 3 percent for the spring quarter. There had been eight point six percent decline in the first quarter of the

year. Margot Adler NPR News New York. Polygamous leader Warren Jeffs convicted of assaulting two under-aged girls he had taken his bride's gets life in prison. Steve Anderson with member station reports the head of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints stood quietly as the Texas jury delivered its decision today. There were two counts one was a first degree felony and for that the maximum was live and the receipt lie. The second count was a second degree felony because the girl was older than 14 and the maximum that was 20 and he received 20 stayed and also made a motion to the judge to stack the sentences that is for them drunk consecutively and she did in fact do that. That's Steve Anderson of member station reporting. This is NPR News. Religion is increasingly under attack around the world according to a new study by Pew Research Center's Forum on Religion and Public Life.

NPR's Barbara Bradley Hagerty reports religious believers are targets of both government restrictions and citizens the governments of Egypt Iran Saudi Arabia and China where the most hostile to minority religions. For example banning certain religions prohibiting conversions and using blasphemy laws to undermine religious freedom in other places the citizens acted out including mob violence and harassment over religious attire. The biggest offenders were people in Iraq India Pakistan Afghanistan and Somalia. Europeans particularly in Denmark Russia Sweden and England registered a big jump in hostilities toward religious minorities much focused on Muslims but there was also rising anti-Semitism and anger at Christian minorities such as Jehovah's Witnesses. Barbara Bradley Hagerty NPR News. A Scotland Yard official says more than 500 people have now been arrested in London following three days of what they're calling unprecedented rioting. Deputy

Assistant Commissioner Stephen Kavanagh says London police have been stretched to an extent never seen before and apologised to residents had to wake up to yet more scenes of destruction. Told About 16000 police officers have now been deployed to patrol London streets. Security concerns are interfering with sports events being held in the run up to the 2012 Olympics in London a beach volleyball test event had to be rescheduled to finish nearly three hours early. More events or schedule this weekend. I'm Lakshmi saying NPR News. Support for NPR comes from Lending Tree providing multiple loan offers from a network of lenders more and more ad Lending Tree dot com or eight hundred five five five tree. That afternoon I'm Kalee Crossley. This is the Cali Crossley Show this hour we're looking at crime in New England from new technologies to a new TV show all coming out of the region. We're kicking things off with a look at facial profiling

be two technologies in Plymouth Massachusetts has created facial recognition software that will soon be used by police across the country. Joining me to talk about this technology and what this means for a law enforcement and civil liberties are Sean Mullin CEO of bee two technologies. And Cade Crockford the privacy rights coordinator for the ACLU of Massachusetts. Welcome to you both. You know I thank you. I want to just put a context on the table for our listeners. And this technology Shawn is such a part of a of a field called bio metrics and bio metrics includes facial recognition as we're about to discuss but also certain kinds of fingerprinting iris scans body odors and thermal mapping. So it's all very 21st century and high tech and that's what we're talking about when we talk about this facial recognition technology. So to you Sean how did you come to come up with this facial recognition

plan that is now being used by some police and will soon be used by more across the country. Well the beginnings of it actually were in an effort to help but then of trying to find missing children and seniors who may actually begin to wonder as a result of all times or other diseases the facial recognition component of the system that we have actually released is a very small piece of it takes a photograph it compares this photograph to mug shots of individuals who've already been incarcerated. That's the only database that it compares to. And none of the data stays on the device it simply checks the database. Does that exist. And to to supporting correctional facilities to see whether or not the individual had previously been there. It is not a positive identification tool unlike iris or fingerprint where you can get a great degree of certainty know you have the individual product but it really came about. Kelly as a result of law enforcement

and other we're going to zation wanting to have the capability that they have right now. They have this capability but they want to be able to have a more mobile and more available to law enforcement in the community. So to explain that it's mobile because you it looks like a smartphone really it's a $3000 device that attaches to what would be a smart phone like device and on the spot if you are arrested a policeman can take a picture of your iris. And this maps the face. Yeah. Let me clarify this little bit you're absolutely correct. It is a smart phone and it's a device attached to a smart phone that captures a fingerprint image of your iris or you fakes any of those three can then be transmitted back to a database to check to see whether or not he's already been incarcerated in an agency that's using the system. That's what it does. There's no no other databases. You can't be in a role. In other words

Kelly you can't have your image put in in the field. So an individual couldn't get that. Taken on the side of the street and then have that image somehow added to the database of the way the technology works. OK Kate Crawford. Privacy rights coordinator for the ACLU. Nonetheless your organization has some concerns both about privacy and government encroachment government surveillance encroachment. Talk to us about that. Absolutely we have concerns. Kelly and I want to thank you very much for inviting me on the program today because unfortunately as is true with so many other police surveillance technologies we really haven't had the appropriate public conversation that we need to have in a democratic society about police surveillance and particularly when these surveillance technologies become incredibly invasive. So you know the context of biometrics. It exists. These technologies are being developed within a context where and we have

location tracking through TPF. There are cell phones. You know there was a story a few weeks ago that upset a lot of people and we found out Apple was secretly tracking people with their iPhone. So you know there is there's a context in the technology field there's another context however which is that this field of law and unfortunately we are woefully inadequate in this society we have not developed the proper privacy protection in our laws that would allow the police to use these technologies responsibly responsibly. So you know I read Mr. Mullen thing in the Wall Street Journal that that guidelines for the use of this technology are incredibly important and that officers in the field will not be allowed or should you know will not be the post to take pictures of people unless there's reasonable suspicion to believe that they've committed a crime or probable cause. And you know we support that and so I would ask Mr. Mullen if he would join us in lobbying. You know state and federal government to impose laws. We need the

rule of law to back these privacy protections. It's not enough for the police to simply say trust us you know we'll do the right thing. Absolutely not. Technology is changing so fast. The government has increasingly so much more information about all of us about ordinary people not criminals not people who you know don't have the papers to be in this country legally. But every single one of us. And so you know there are two areas of contact that I did. What a place this technology and one is location tracking because the combination of location tracking and biometric software enables the kind of Minority Report dystopia that we've seen depicted in Hollywood. And then the second is that our laws have not caught up to the technology and we really need to make that happen. So I would put it to Mr. Mom that I hope you join us you know and that I hope you wouldn't apply this technology until the laws exist to protect our privacy. Well Mr. Mullin as I understand it 10 of 14 jurisdictions in our state in Massachusetts are already using the technology and some 40 law

enforcement agencies across the country or will soon be taking delivery of about a thousand systems is this accurate. And so Cade Crockford is concerned that the technology is is getting ahead of some of these issues that we discuss. How do you feel about such laws as she suggested to make certain that this technology is limited to its its fair use. Well first of all I think Kate is absolutely right. Still you want other concerned to a position and to do that. It is an appropriate discussion. Always have been a democratic side exceptionally bright. The second point however is that this is 200 years plus of constitutional law on the books that govern these. There's nothing new about fingerprints. There is nothing new about facial recognition and mug shot. There is quite a bit knew about iris technology it's a relatively recent biometric But the fact of the matter is is that legislatures both at the federal level and state level it's certainly debated and certainly legislated

appropriate law. More importantly the Colts have stepped in on many many occasions in clearly defined many of the issues that I think Caden the organizations like the ACLU are very concerned with in that public dialogue should continue the fact that it exists already in so many jurisdictions has been used for years has been discussed publicly it should continue to be discuss. Publicly I think that I understand the concerns I think a lot of concerns could be easily answered to additional information. But the constitutional safeguards that are in place will just be with the maker of the technology. We create the technology. We don't pass laws we can certainly discuss the ramifications of how the technology can or cannot be used. We have built a series of safeguards into our technology to minimize or eliminate the opportunity from issues. But you know it's a core technology is still there. It's always been there. All that we have done

is created a key capability to make it more mobile. And quite frankly in each police cruiser today there is a device called a mobile data terminal. It's a computer. What we've done is we've miniaturized the capacity of the capability of that computer so that now when the officer steps out of the vehicle they have that enhanced. That's the major leap forward that we have made so that many of the same issues have already been discussed and debated and but I absolutely applaud KDE and the organization for wanting to make sure that there is a good public. I think what a lot of people are concerned about is yes if the technology has been in place some form of it but the mobilization of it puts it out there in a way that sort of pushes what anybody's constitutional interpretation may be. So that now you have technology as brought to bear by your company that is out in front of what we

understand our laws to cover so here are some of the issues that people have raised is how long the images of the suspects will be stored. I mean this is come up even at when we're dealing with TSA. When you go through the scanners and people are concerned with how long of the where are those images going and how long are they stored in. And frankly that question hasn't been really answered to the satisfaction of many. Whether or not the images that you that are taken by the police will be shared with the FBI and right now they're not supposed to be. But it's nothing there to say that they can't. And what happens to the images of people who are cleared. We know this often happens people you know get arrested it turns out their wrong person and now you have something on a record that's floating out in the ether and so little bit discomposed you know uncomfortable for a lot of people to to think about so I'm just putting that out there so that people understand you know what some of the issues are and I'll let you respond to that in a second but Kate I do want to give you an opportunity to answer this question which a lot of people raise while listening to this. If you have done

nothing wrong and you are not going to be arrested. Big deal why are you upset about the fact that they're using this technology. Well that's a you know that is an important question to address Kelly because a lot of people do ask that question and we at the ACLU have a very simple answer for that. Privacy is a core American value. It is it is fundamental to who we are. It is fundamental to our human dignity to our autonomy. It's why we have curtains on our windows. It's you know it gives us the freedom to pray and to make love and to write poetry or be silly you know to to walk around naked in our apartment. Privacy is fundamentally important. It's fundamental to our liberty which is fundamental to mock. It's fundamental to an open society. And so you know the ascendant takeover of policing by this surveillance surveillance oriented ideology over the past 10 years particularly since 9/11 is actually a threat to our open society and you know. People. People cannot and they will not fully

participate in our democracy if they know in the back of their mind that the government is watching their every move and that the government is watching their every move with highly advanced technologies and this get us back to a point that I wanted to address but Shawn made about you know this technology having existed for a long time and the law is really OK. The law is not ok the law has not addressed these issues. But there is no established law around when and where and in what circumstances the images can be captured. You know Sheriff McDonald of Plymouth County told The Wall Street Journal that he will tell his deputies not to use the system without reasonable suspicion but that friendly advice is not in shined in the rule of law. They could absolutely do so and that. Back to my other point before which is that you know and Mr Mom brought up an important point when he discussed the laptop and police cruisers. Police have a lot of information about everyone today you know there is just an interesting story one of our board members was telling me the other day that she was pulled over on a routine traffic stop and the cop when he

came back to her car said well you don't live here now but you used to live in Lexington 50 years ago. I mean he was able to know that simply by looking at her information in a computer she's not a criminal she's not done anything wrong. Right. So you know even ordinary Americans regular people who have never committed a crime. We need to be sure that we have you know freedom from government intrusion that is a fundamental core American value. And it's really it's really at threat. I mean we're that values being threatened today and Americans need to stand up and reclaim that liberty that is so fundamental to our good. OK just one last thing to you. The database is run by your company. You know so that makes people feel like well why is the why are the people who make the technology run in the database can you address that. First we need to clarify which database I mentioned Kelly in the preparation of this conversation is really tree separate database so we're talking about the facial recognition data. I thought yes I was focused.

We don't have anything to do with that database inaccurate it's incorrect that database is held by the Essex County Sheriff's Department for the purposes of sharing mug shot data that is taken when an individual is incarcerated in the facilities in Massachusetts. We don't have anything over it. A controller and he I mean we don't we don't in any way control the databases. A public safety database we don't control that. Same is true with fingerprints. OK well thanks for that clarification what database are you controlling. We don't actually control any. We manage the server for the iris database that's functioning and 47. OK that's what week we we manage the server the data is still the local law enforcement agencies. Well we enable Cali has the ability to share it among different agencies nationwide. All right so you're making the share possibility with the cloud. OK. That way I think you can understand that probably this is going to be a discussion that's going to attract more attention as people come to understand this

technology because people as as Kate have said a really uncomfortable with not understanding just where the law falls and that's not your concern you just made that you made the device but but you have to admit that the law is murky here. What I would what I would say is that on the basic technology the law has been well litigated in a very clear with the emergence of any new technology. And Kate and everyone else can turn it absolutely right. They have to be an open discussion about this because there are issues that with any new important technology we've got to consider. So I I really do applaud and commend the ACLU taking the active role in this dialogue and for you putting it on the air so people could think about it. Right. The fact of the matter is the underlying reality. None of these technologies didn't We've been taking photographs of individuals who've been incarcerated since we had photographic capability. We've been taking fingerprints for over a hundred years.

None of these technologies are new and have been very very extensive litigation and decisions on. So it's a new technology. It ought to be looked at. It's a great wood case doing it certainly great with you in the media are doing particularly with you giving it 20 30 minutes Kelli. I think that's entirely appropriate. But the technology itself is only providing access to what's already there. All right well we're going to try. We're going to leave the conversation there at this moment but I got a feeling we'll be back having some discussion for part of this as we go forward. I think both of you for talking to me about it and giving my listeners something to think about. I'm callin Crossley we've been talking about facial profiling with John Mullan. He's the CEO of the new technologies in Plymouth Massachusetts. The company's created facial recognition software that will soon be used by police across the country. I was also joined by Cade Crockford the privacy rights coordinator for the ACLU of Massachusetts. Thanks again. Up next we cross the thin blue line with a new app

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trust NPR and WGBH Boston at WGBH dot org. I'm Cally Crossley This is the Cali Crossley Show we're talking about crime criminal justice and law enforcement this hour. Joining me in the studio to continue the conversation is Richard Jones. He's a smartphone app developer who's created cop recorder. Richard Jones welcome. Thanks for having us. Oh yes. Now describe what comp recorder is so copper quarter is is one application it's part of a suite of applications that we've written under the banner of the open watch project. It's a it's a cell phone application for Android and iPhone smartphones that lets you record audio without any visual indication that audio is being recorded for your encounters with the police. And after the recordings are over the recordings are then sent back to our project where we analyze the recordings we

remove anybody is personally identifying information and we post the entire recordings to the Internet and we write reports about the trends that we see in police encounters in various areas or just in general trends about specific incidents where there is there's. A particular moment of police professionalism or violence that sort of thing. As we get more data we get to write reports about regional trends and the more broad perspective and that's what what's really interesting about this project is that it's a it's a data driven project. A couple things I want to mention. It's FREE. When you say it's open it means that anybody can download this app to their smartphone if they wish. Oh sure it is totally free and open source too. We've got we've got two Android applications an iPhone application some server software and we've also written some phone software so you actually don't even need a smartphone

anymore if you have a regular regular phone you can call in using our telephone number 2 1 7 2 3 8 6 300. And even the software that runs the phone's server is totally free and open source so anybody can can take it a modified and use it for their own purposes. We'll put the number up on the website so people can you know get it and get it and use it if they so desire. I know that in my first segment I'm talking about cops recording folks that they have arrested or people they feel to be suspicious. This puts the recording ability in the hands of your average consumer who may what feel threatened or want to record of what's going on what exactly exactly so. It was it was a great discussion that we had early on a whole lot to say about the things that were mentioned there. One thing that came up was there was mention by the woman from the ACLU is that since 9/11 there has been a shift in perception of privacy and the rhetoric that has come from the state and

the government has been that if you don't have anything to hide you shouldn't worry about this. And we're we're taking that and saying well if that's going to be the rules of the game from now on then we're going to have to pry that apply that across the board and if the police and the government don't have anything to hide then they won't mind as examining them in the same way. Now you're a recent graduate of be you know someone listening I think maybe you've been developing apps for a hundred years for a company but no this is something that you are just doing. Do you do this for your livelihood. Yeah I do. I'm freelance as there is it's a growing market right now. OK it's but here's my question What motivated you to put this together. What was the driving force to say you know what I need something like this is going to put a tool in the hands of people you know. So it was it was a few things. I got my start in application development

as as a privacy advocate and free culture advocate and we're making software that does things like encrypting private communications and things like that to give people to use technology to give people more privacy. The problem was that every year it's getting worse and the expectation of privacy is going away more and more every year. And it became such a futile battle that I realized like we're going to need to take a different approach we're going to need to take an often sieve approach to privacy rather than just this this defensive approach. They're also the reason. Targeting the police specifically is. Well that's where people interact with the state the most and also there were a few incidences in my life where so I had a friend who was at the Porter Square T-stop and he witnessed on a bridge in Cambridge and he he witnessed an accident on the escalator where somebody's foot was caught. There's a pretty bad injury. And he filmed the

incident on his his phone and the police actually came and took it from him and forced him to delete the applicant. You know all the media that he produced I thought that was was somewhat of a travesty like there's evidence. And why did they do that why did they want that. The police in Massachusetts really don't like being recorded there's been quite a few cases of criminal cases against people for recording the police in Massachusetts. Well in in deference to some cops who are probably driving off the road right now this is a conversation it is against the law. Right. That there is from from state to state Actually most states have what's called one party consent. You know if somebody knows I'm not here now in Massachusetts just to be clear that's questionable. Ok alright you explain it then. I'm not a lawyer I don't I don't want to I don't want to be seen like I'm giving real legal advice here. All of every time that that has come up in Massachusetts the charges have been dismissed. OK.

Now what kind of submissions have you been getting since people have been using it. And by the way I just want to make it clear to people that you cannot tell if you're the cop or whomever the other person's out there that you're filming. You can't tell that you're being filmed. It is really quite a stealth application. It's definitely designed to be a stealth application. We wanted the iPhone version to be a bit more stealthy but we the first few got rejected by Apple but the Android version is totally totally stealthy which is cool. Most of the most submissions that we receive. There's nothing wrong. There isn't misconduct I think that's that's the really interesting thing about the project is that we post all of the recordings that we receive and process you're not cherry picking. No exactly we've been and we've been accused of cherry picking and we've been accused of manipulating the audio but we don't do that we post all the submissions that we receive and we post them in their entirety where scientific journalism project which means we post full party you know full primary sources. So so what happens is when there are cases where the police in the recordings are being

extremely unprofessional or whatever. We can use the recordings of the police behaving well and provide context in our reports say this is a similar incident in a different state where the police behaved perfectly proper appropriately exactly I want to give people a chance to listen to at least a piece of one of the submissions that this is a recording made by a driver at a DUI checkpoint and he was forced to pull over and answer questions from officers. Look at the hard work the hard way and I think I can if you excuse everything I'm going to check why that's a problem. Yes that's true that's true but you know checkpoint just like if you clearly have anything to do with you really. Thank you. I don't want to. I think. I want to hear your thoughts. I think I'm going to be OK. I'm not going to. That seemed like a little push and pull between the officer and the person.

Right right and so if you if you keep listening that recording it gets even more intense in the office and you can hear the offer to officer you know pat him down and search him and Gramm really said this is you know this for my safety like that when he he asserts his rights he gets. You can hear the escalation in the tension. And that was we have now received two submissions from DUI checkpoints in California and the interesting thing is that they're completely ignoring the process of Probable Cause I mean if we we spoke to a lawyer before we wrote a report about. How they're completely ignoring the standard legal process in those situations. And the interesting thing is that the script that the officer say is identical in both cases you're approached by one officer who who claims to smell alcohol on your breath in most cases it was 0.0 it was it was revealed to be that no alcohol the officer will claim that there is alcohol they'll pull you over to a secondary and then they'll intimidate you into this meeting to a test which you

don't which you don't legally have to do. Yeah but having the recording meant something I have to say that I'm thinking at this moment of a friend of mine who black man you've heard of the trend of driving while black. He was pulled over with a friend there were plenty of witnesses but it and he tried to take it as far as he could but he didn't have any physics any visual evidence which he as he said to me if I had a videotape of this this would have been over because they wouldn't even believe the witnesses. Sure sure sure. In the other the other submission that received received was a video and somebody hit him an iPhone recording video in there and the side of their car door and there was there was an illegal search. You can see the cop enters the car and searches he goes he takes out his wallet and searches through his wallet with no warrant. And there are so many situations where it's really in your best interest to simply make a recording use the application to make a recording whenever you interact with the police. It probably will be fine in most you

know let's let's say that most cops are good in most interactions with the police. Go find that sometimes they don't and that can cost you a whole lot a whole lot so it's really in your best interest to just make some documentary evidence about what happened otherwise you only have hearsay and when hearsay goes to the courts the courts always side with the police. Yes so let me ask this similar to my conversation earlier in the show. This technology in some ways is out in front is pushing some discussion about laws because there in some states where there is no law for example in Pennsylvania I was reading in the notes where the cops are still arresting people for illegal surveillance but that's not clear that they have the right to do so in other states in Massachusetts where there is a law but if you say that some parts of that is developed debatable in any case we're at the point now where there's got to be some discussion about this and it will be perhaps defined by the courts. Tell us about just one case that you know is coming up now that may

in fact change what we people's ability to use this device. In message you send messages is there any place that you know is going to you know be out in front in helping to shape. So this happened fairly recently. It's not one coming up but about about about a month ago maybe a month and a half ago there was a Supreme Court ruling in Wisconsin that ruled that it is in the public interest for the public to have the right to monitor the police as a form of accountability and the interesting thing about that case was that the named plaintiffs in the Supreme Court case was Dr. Dre and Eminem who had into rappers. Yeah yeah yeah. Two very famous rappers who included video of police trying to shut down one of their concerts on a DVD and then and then that became a criminal matter for including that but the Supreme Court of Wisconsin ruled that they must be allowed. That the public should be allowed to record the police.

Well I'm going to imagine that as more people take advantage of the free application that you put come up with that we're going to hear much more discussion about this. This is enjoying your conversation with Richard Jones who is giving regular folks an ability to watch the cops. So thank you so much for coming in very much like to talk about this. I'm Kelly Crossley we're talking about law and order this hour from crime to cops to citizens I've been speaking with Richard Jones. He developed cop recorder a phone app that lets users record and upload audio and video from their encounters with law enforcement. You can find links to audio from copper quarter at our website WGBH dot org slash Kelley cross link and on the Web site will give you the number that Rich gave here for people who don't have a smartphone you can use the application anyway. Thank you so much rage. Up next we drop in on Hartford Connecticut by way of a new crime drama based on the city's main streets. Stay with us.

Support for WGBH comes from you and from the Preservation Society of Newport County presenting the Newport mansions Wine and Food Festival featuring lady of us Janet September 23rd through the 25th. You can visit Newport mansions dot org for more information. And from Celtic Thunder with the latest offering from this popular super group filmed at the International Center in Toronto this all new music programme Celtic Thunder storm rumbles on to the airwaves tonight at 9:30 on WGBH too. I'm Lisa Mullins a retired British police detective is on the trail of Jack the Ripper. It's probably one of the right Unsolved Mysteries of the British criminal history. Detective

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org. I'm callin Crossley This is the Calla Crossley Show. My guest Marc Manson has been with the Hartford police force for 14 years and he's adapting his real life experience to the small screen. He's the creator and executive producer of the 2nd District a new police drama about crime and corruption in Hartford Connecticut. Also with me is actor Lowe Dion who plays Chino Ortiz on the 2nd District. Welcome to you both. How you doing. Mark Manson I have to start with you 14 year veteran as we've said. Why did you decide to write this show. Well first let me just say this is not really about corruption within our police department but we do have on some issues that go on. You know that's a normal thing normal but I think that goes on in basically every police department so I don't want to bring that big word of corruption out but you know we're going to tap into that. It is going to be more on

an entertainment side and you know more on the serious side but the reasons for writing this is I teamed up with a friend of mine named Felix Soto. While you know Felix is a convicted felon and believe it or not you know I was transporting him to jail one time and we just started talking and you know and you know there's a lot of things that people think police officers are like whenever they see us we're just in the uniform. But there's another side to us that we have that side where we you know have that caring side but when we go to work you know you got to put on that different. That different hat that we have to and we have to play that different role that we have to do in order to do our job. And so myself and Felix I don't transport him down to central booking and we just started talking we're like you know what we need to create something that's better on TV because believe it or not he loves TV just as much as I do. And things went on from there in the next you know we ended up hooking up and the next thing you know we started you know

just talking scenes in ideas and we started putting it to paper and this is where we ended up. OK. The storyline really focuses on six uniformed patrol division officers and takes a look at both their professional and personal lives and as you've said it's modeled after a relationship a particular relationship with a fictional patrolman and this fictional gangster whom you've just described was based on a real person. So the second district is their first district in hardware in Hartford just earlier not as the second district. It's fictional as a fictional area that we have here it's in Hartford but we you know we created. I just wanted to create it because of the fact that I you know am a police officer in the city I didn't want to like target a particular area. You know so people can say well you know you're portraying our area in a certain way. And what about the other areas so I just came up with that what that title. All right let me turn my attention to Dion who plays Chino on the series that he's the gangster. What appealed to you about this

series to take this part. Actually it was it was a scene in the breakdowns when I seen it he was like OK we're going to be pitching this to HBO TNT all types of different networks. I was like that's so much I might want to be involved with. So me and a couple of my boys from New York. They were holding auditions in New York but I was going to wait around for that. They would hold all different auditions and Hoff as well. So meet a couple more boys who job up audition the rest was history. Now you're at the edge you said you're from New York so can you in your mind could you think this is a story in Hartford. I mean did that seem weird to you. I mean I'm a be honest with you in every every city has a ghetto. It ain't really too much a difference. So I can relate to whether it's in Texas or California I can relate to it because I grew up

in a ghetto so that wasn't a problem at all. Can I just jump in and out for a second store it was one of the it was funny because I part of my time was being a police officer in Hartford I'm on the street now but before then I was a recruiter for the police department we would go to like Boston I've been to Boston several times to recruit officers. And I went to New York several times to recruit officers and when we're sitting up there with our booth like a John Jay College in New York you know and I'm thinking like everyone knows about Hartford Connecticut so I'm sitting there and the prospective candidates will come up to our booth and everything when I talk and they're like where is Harford. And I'm like Where do you live. He goes man I said you never heard of Hartford Connecticut. Like no. So it was funny you know I was like geez you know no one knows about Hartford Connecticut you know and you know I got to you know get Harford out there we got to get expose you know we need some exposure now. With with with the show. I mean I could have picked any city us so any city USA because what was really being portrayed here

is not just a Harford thing it's really happening and you know in big cities in Hartford gets kind of an unfair shake because it is a small city it's only about 18 square miles. You know 18 square miles but about 130000 people. But we have New York City issues. You know on the good side and on the bad side and even Boston issues you know we you know I think you had like a million people up there close to it and we're a small city so we always get put in that category as dangerous cities or whatever the case may be because we're small and what we're dealing with these big city issues. So when you know I just felt that you know Hartford You know it's untouched especially by the entertainment side plus people need to know about us I'm from here I want people to know about us you know and that I think from you know the best thing to do is to do it in a police show. Now I could ask the question why do you want people to know about this. Because it's not that it's a romantic comedy about hard for it this is you know as we've said hard boiled

crime drama with a lot of greedy to say the least action going on. So some people might say hey did you have to expose this about Harvard. While the show is it's more like it's going to be more like a soap opera type you know it's going to be comedy and there's going to be serious. You know the main thing with this particular show is the follow the characters around because you're going to like some of the gang members in this show you're going to like somebody cops you're going to hate some of the cops are going to hate some. So the way I wanted to portray it was you know you pick the characters that you want to follow and you know you're going to like him or you're going to love him. All right let me I want to I want to give people a chance to hear a little bit of an excerpt from from the series. This is Speaking of the gangsters This is from the second district that's the show. And in this scene gangster Cin Cortez considers what cops and gangsters have in common. The point is to find the gangs to be a more people roaming the same colors

have been assembled to represent an organization if that's the case. You better look in America I did it once I hope that's an intimidating people just trying to survive out here. Prevent me from surviving. That's why I thought hell on you. All right now Mark Manson you're the creator of this you're still a working cop. I gotta say it has a little bit of familiarity for anybody who's watched The Wire. Was that your intent or is just coincidental. I love that show The Wire and being a police officer that was one of the best shows that really deplete what what goes on I mean you ask any cop you know modern day now you know what was the best television show and they would come out and say the wire so I wanted to. That was kind of like my my inspiration to try to create. There's a lot of differences in this show from the wire. You know

once it went off the air it was just nothing else left. And you know I think regular network television were forced to watch what they put on. And not you know putting down any of the television shows that are out there. You know me being a cop I know for a fact I sat down I studied I watched TV I watch other shows that are out there or watch but I watch the old time cop shows too like Adam 12 Swat. I did a lot of research I did a lot of thinking studying to put together the perfect police show. You know his show is going to be is going to be very entertaining. It's going to be very very entertaining and those are the things in my mind is constantly changing how to make it better. You know and I just want to piece it together so when we go out and get the scripts finalized it's going to I want people to talk about it that's a good show. All right. Now you said you corrected me at the beginning saying it's really not about corruption but I got a scene here that I'm going to let people listen to sounds a little corrupt to make going on in the second district so here we are in this scene The hard for police officers plot

a scheme to get promoted. There's no turning back now. I am not getting caught. OK it's just that at times this just feels wrong. It's every bit a right. Think about it. I should been promoted to chief a long time ago and you know that. As for you when I finally get my third star you'll be getting a first star deputy of operations north. And what happens if your plan doesn't work. What's going to happen to me. Stop worrying. After a meeting with the mayor today everything will be in place. All right what do you say to that Marc Manson. That's just to end it. I mean you've got to say for that that's the entertainment side that's that's the side you know. You know I don't even want to that's the side of it that you know I would just wanted to have that little gritty entertainment you know soap opera. Stab him in the back there what's going on. You know I just wanted to add that part in that level of like what the chief complexes and stuff and a little

bit of that I did get from the wire on how to do it. You know the ranks and they have their little you know part in there what's going on in the upper command staff to show that's just like a subplot of what's going to be going on but I just thought that you know I said that would be a good idea to put in there. That's more soap opera. You know like The Young and The Restless who's going to you know Victor Newman is after so and so and just you know do the little schemes up in there but the main part of it is going to be between saying who's chinos boss and if they're Ian Cruz who's going to be the officer that's going to finally clash with sin. Things are going to go. I wish I could tell you more but I don't want to you know all right you know but I'll give it all away. I don't want to give it all away. You're listening to eighty nine point seven WGBH and online at WGBH dot org. I'm Kelly Crossley and we're talking about the crime drama The second district with the Creator Hartford police officer Mark Manson and

actor Lowe Dion. Tell us about your character. Chino because you work for the big crime boss in the series. OK well actually my character is he's the boss of all the LOA. So just then me the night the nine deuce gang. Yeah actually yeah. Now that was a gang we just made that up yeah it's not real you know. It's just good TV. OK. And so what it is they really trying to move me out of my position. They don't they don't like how men in that run in the game. So they want me out but. It's that kind of money is long and I'm strong. Still it's going to be really hard to get me out of my position. OK Mark you have 90 percent of the funding for this series and by the way we should note that

Connecticut is an aggressive campaign to get filming done in the state where you know part of that whole initiative. I wasn't a part of that initiative but I knew it was there. And you know even though we got like my first project is a little crying gritty police drama. The main thing is that we have that tax incentive. Most of the production companies are moving down into the Stanford area. You know just over the New York line. I'm really at this level. You know I got to enter Connecticut and from what I'm hearing a lot of people are happy about that because you know we're not like a Connecticut base we're looking for you know a fortune to tap into Connecticut talent I'm constantly getting calls from rappers people I'm out there on the street on a call and a lady comes up to me goes I just saw you on TV she starts singing to me and I got the complainants you know standing all in front of me and they're laughing of course even help me work that case because you know

everybody every both sides were happy with it. The biggest thing is what that filming industry you know coming up in here you know it's they're very happy that it's and they're Connecticut and up in the Hartford area in the middle of the state versus you know I'm a New York company just coming across the line to take advantage of the tax credit. And I can jump back over to the New York back into New York and go home. OK. It's all here. What's that what's been the response to those people who've seen even just a little bit of it what are they saying. The responses are major. I mean I get positive pop I mean there's a few negatives in there. But one of the things is I think it is because you know Connecticut itself is not really used to the entertainment side and I used to the motion picture of what goes on. So it's a little shocking to them when especially like I said I'm fortunate this is the first show that I came up with and it's a police drama it's gritty So to add to that. They're not used to it. So I took the hits expression in the beginning you know it's gotten a lot better now and the feedback has

gotten very very very positive. I just received an email just before I got here that the show's been picked up in the UK. Oh wonderful. It's been picked up in the U.K. by a new network called symposia and this is just off the 25 minute trailer and it's picked up over there and I was just reading it as like as I came into the studio here my e-mail went off I wasn't going to check it I checked it real quick and I did a major press release in London saying a hot new TV show in the United States the second district and I was just reading that as I came in so we're already we're already over there just on a 25 minute pilot. And you should say that you are being distributed in the United States by something called the Am G TV network which distributes a lot of programming including sitcoms and lifestyle programs. Now all of those cities 100 cities that AMC distributes to Boston is not one of them I have you know so we we here will not get to see that I guess Tribune Broadcasting up there right. Yeah you have what we got picked up by Tribune also. OK

so maybe that can change but your real goal and the reason I raise that is your real goal is really to eventually catch the eye. As pointed out earlier the HBO shows or the show times what kind of response have you so far tentative response have you gotten from them. From what I'm get I haven't gotten any personal responses from them but what I'm getting you know from even the regular networks CBS ABC you know that they know of us HBO and all of us. Showtime no of us. F X and Spike They all they all know of us but they're sitting there and are watching and you know who's going to be the first one to make the move. The thing with me is that we got a syndication deal through an EMG TV which we're going to actually have 200 I think is 200 to 10 affiliate stations that their associated what now Tribune Broadcasting is on board which is going to broaden it even more. And I think once we get the first season out there you know get the money secured which were pretty much there will begin into

pre-production kind of like in a pre-production stage now and then will officially go into pre-production hopefully within the next couple weeks when we secure and then we'll begin filming probably in February March and we have already been slotted to goal for this summer to be picked up in the summer of 2012 for the yet to be aired in the summer time. All right now you have six years a little bit over six years before you retire so you're still working. Is this the beginning of a writing career for you. It's it's it's yes yes because as you know I get other ideas. I like more creative side you know I when I first Felix and I first started writing this you know I was like we came up with the idea we go we gotta find somebody to write this. OK I said no you got to write this. All right well we'll be looking forward to it. Any any of those criminals and Connecticut could be arrested by you and get you and end up in a show. Thank you both so much we're going to talk going to be we've been talking about the new crime drama The second district based in Hartford

Connecticut. I've been speaking with Mark Manson the creator and executive producer. Mark has been with the Hartford police force for 14 years. I was also joined by Lowe Dion an actor who plays Chino Ortiz on the 2nd District thanks again. You can keep on top of the Calla Crossley Show at WGBH dot org slash Calla Crossley follow us on Twitter or become a fan of the Kalak Rossley show on Facebook. We are production of WGBH radio Boston's NPR station for news and culture.