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I'm Cally Crossley This is the Cali Crosland show. When it comes to getting older Mark Twain said. Age is an issue of mind over matter. If you don't mind it doesn't matter. But try telling that to Margaret Morgan. With the number of folks 65 and up doubling in 40 years she says age most definitely matters to the young and old alike. In her latest book Age wise she takes a forensic look at our youth worshipping society breaking down how our fears about ageing from minute pause to memory loss are all a concoction of ages and it's time for everyone young and old to mock all associations we make with ageing and recognise that even when we're old we have a lot to offer and live for. From there it's a conversation with singer songwriter Livingston Taylor. He's released a new version of stage performance a must have guide for anyone who is committed to their audience. Up next life lessons from aging to performing. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi saying. Nearly half the

nation is trying to get through the oppressive heat that's forecast to stick around for several more days. At least five deaths are blamed on soaring temperatures that are nearing 100 degrees in some areas that are not used to seeing this kind of weather in the spring. It's wreaking havoc in every region including Oklahoma. There Kurt Gwartney of member station KGO EW says the heat is a real problem for the state's maximum security prison. Wild weather has arrived earlier than usual in Oklahoma with temperatures reaching 104 degrees four times this month. Inmates on the state's death row and one other unit at the prison have not had air conditioning since Friday. The wardens assistant at the local misstate penitentiary in McAlester says they're offering ice and additional showers to inmates to help with the heat. Prison officials have also increased the number of staff to maintain security in other parts of the country. Schools without air conditioning have let out early and cooling centers have opened from Illinois to New Jersey while residents do what they can to stay cool as half the country sees August like heat before summer even officially begins. For NPR News I'm

Curt Courtney in Oklahoma City. Defense Secretary Robert Gates is trying to reassure military allies that President Obama's upcoming decision on troop reductions in Afghanistan will not endanger the joint effort to defeat extremists there. Teri Schultz reports that Gates has also shared his concerns with fellow defense ministers at NATO. Gates says the U.S. sees substantial progress in Afghanistan justifying beginning the handover of the country's security to its own forces. But he believes that could be jeopardized if the process doesn't take place in what he calls a deliberate organized and coordinated manner. Gates says the U.S. will not act by the clock or any other factor than conditions on the ground and he asks partners to follow the same guidelines that will be no rush for the exits on our part and we expect the same from our allies. Gates says Taliban extremists will only be willing to reconcile with society when they feel under pressure and that he anticipates no reduction in that pressure from the Alliance for at least the rest of this year. For NPR News I'm Teri Schultz in Brussels.

Leon Panetta is trying to make the case for why the U.S. Senate should confirm him to succeed Gates the secretary of defense. On Capitol Hill today the current CIA chief told lawmakers how he would push ahead in the Afghanistan war. In Afghanistan we must continue to degrade the Taliban. We've got to train security forces. We've got to help the government take ownership of their country. So that they can govern and protect their country. U.S. troops are scheduled to start withdrawing from Afghanistan in July. At last check on Wall Street the Dow Jones industrial average up sixty six points or more than half a percentage twelve thousand one hundred fifteen. Nasdaq gaining 15 points it's a 20 690 S&P 500 up 12 a twelve ninety two. This is NPR News. The Libyan government is refuting war crimes allegations against a leader Moammar Gadhafi diplomat was stuff a Siobhan told the UN Human Rights Council today that the Libyan

government is quote the victim of a widespread aggression. Siobhan says foreign mercenaries Libyan rebels and the media are to blame for human rights violations. The international criminal court reportedly is investigating allegations that Gadhafi as troops were encouraged to commit acts of murder torture and rape. The Libyan opposition is appealing for cash and apparently Italy is delivering today it pledged nearly 600 million dollars for the rebellion to oust Gadhafi. A spokesman for Italy's foreign ministry says the money will be offered in the form of soft loans and fuel aid for day to day needs. The Florida black bear is about to lose its protected status after nearly 40 years on the state's List of Threatened Species. Judith small survey of member station reports the move could eventually allow the Bears to be hunted. The Florida Black Bear is a symbol of wildlife conservation in Florida. It even appears on a specialty license plate that raises money for the cause. But this week a state board voted unanimously to remove the animal from its threatened species list. A new study shows the black

bear population in Florida has increased from about 500 in the 1950s to more than 2000 in the early part of this decade. The bear won't officially lose state protection until wildlife officials approve a species management plan that's not expected before February. A draft of the plan says the state would explore options for bear hunting. The sport has been banned since 1994. For NPR News I'm Judith's Mauser in Orlando. I'm Lakshmi saying NPR News in Washington. Support for NPR comes from the Melville charitable trust supporting solutions to prevent and end homelessness on the web at Millvale Trost dot org. Good afternoon I'm Kelly Crossley. This is the Kelly Crossley Show. My guest Margaret Morgan Ross Collette is a cultural critic and internationally known essayist activist and age critic. Her latest examination of aging is in her new book

Age wise fighting the new age ism in America. It's an in-depth look at the damaging misconceptions that we have about getting older. Margaret welcome. Thank you so much. Listeners we want you to get in on this conversation. 8 7 7 3 0 1. Eighty nine seventy eight 7 7 3 0 1. Eighty nine seventy. What comes to mind when you think about getting older. Are you a senior citizen. And what stereotypes do you want to challenge. What stereotypes are out there that make you dread getting older. Collison 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 and you can send us a tweet or write to our Facebook page. So Margaret galit. I think when we hear the word ages and we think discrimination purely But you make the point in your book that it's much broader than that can you explain it so it was so deep and so broad. That's what I was finding as I started doing the research for this book. And I think

it's great to take into account midlife age discrimination. The book starts there. It's an important part of the whole picture. I think the economic and structural source's of midwife job discrimination are extremely important and I start in fact with an anecdote about it's a friend actually and she was in her 50s and she did retraining and computers so that she could get a better job. And she found that she couldn't get any job and she couldn't even get she got to interviews. And she wrote to me and she said. I think it's my age. My friends tell me it's my age that never occurred to me. Well the funny thing is I mean you start with it as if everybody already knew that it was a problem. But in fact even some of the people who are most affected by it don't recognize it as a problem. But I want to to move on to the other part of your question. How much broader

than midlife job discrimination. It is I guess I got one of the impetuses for writing the book was writing about Hurricane Katrina. I saw two photographs in the papers and one of them was of oh this was the summer of 2005. One of them was of a white woman who was lying on a baggage conveyor. I guess because there was just no place else to put her and she was exhausted or whoknows sick and dying I mean it was just an unforgettable picture of vulnerability and the other photograph which came from the same time was of an African-American woman who was seated erect wrapped in an American flag probably to prevent hypothermia. And with this puzzled. And furrowed brow that was just

how did this happen to me. Well I started looking into this subject and it didn't look as if age if you just read the papers it didn't look as if age had anything to do with it. But when I read the data about the earth the deaths the first data about the deaths it turned out that 78 percent of the people who died were over 50. And about five times as many people over 65 had died as their numbers their percentage in the population of New Orleans. And I just said age has everything to do with it. And the question for me in every chapter of the book became what exactly has age got to do with it. And what I found just to look at the Katrina story for one more second is that there was enormous press around Katrina it was about mostly race and it was about gender a little bit. It was all pretty ephemeral. I think when the story actually went on for years and years

and involved the diaspora which was full of African-Americans and women and older people who could not return to New Orleans in any way but the press did not talk about age very much I quote the few people who did and I honor them for doing it. But there was just no understanding of how important age had been in terms of the evacuation in terms of the rescue effort in terms of helping people to get back to their homes in the districts of New Orleans and those people were disproportionately older black or more female. And in some respects in receiving that community with people who have the history of the culture and the place. Age has a lot to do with it as well because a lot of those people left and as you said did not combat. My guest is Margaret Morgan Ross Gilette her new book is age wise fighting the new age ism in America. So your book says New Age ism. What's the difference between the Old age

is a memory is there no difference. I think there's a whole history of ages in America and I have friends who are historians who have written in fascinating ways about what was happening before in 1900 that say and I think we had a certain kind of age ism before Social Security was put into place where people were you know sent to the workhouse or whatever there was before Social Security. There is no doubt that they are that it's a long history. And but what I was interested in is the trends that I spotted in terms of the last 30 40 years or so. And I think. I think Middle age is a cold this phenomenon of midlife job discrimination with everything that surrounds it. Middle Ages I'm Because we just didn't have a term and we need a term. Ages M seems to be about

what's happening to people who are 65 and over. But a lot happens to people starting at 30 at 40 at 50. So we need not only a term of middle ages for this job discrimination but we need another term that I use which is decline and decline ideology and I fit into that just a huge number of different phenomena. Whatever tells young people for example at the age of 30 that before the age of 30 that their sex lives are going to start diminishing at the age of 30. I include stuff like that to the fact that people at 40 are already worrying about job discrimination and and rightly so. I mean we have a law that was passed in 1967 that makes Job discrimination illegal but so it's ratcheted up it's more pervasive. It's as you say embedded in the culture.

It's institutionalized institutionalized and I'd like to say it just a little bit about that. The Supreme Court has made some very important and I think. Devastating decisions about whether people who are whether seniority can continue for people who are older and Florida vs. Florida Board of Regents was one of those and gross versus FBO financial services was another one. It made the first one made it actually the state is allowed to discriminate against people with age as a proxy for other qualities. Now age is a proxy for other qualities is just a devastating use of terminology. It's like saying OK race is a proxy for other or gender is a proxy for other qualities. I mean we've had movements that tried to eliminate this kind of this this this these kinds of

discrimination. But we have the Supreme Court institutionalizing them and the dissenters in Gros said This bears no relation to what Congress intended. In 1967. So that's one form. Then we look at the EEOC which is OK so you know there's a new concern really is. Samples of serious embedding and institutionalization right in ways that were not in place before so that's the new age is a maze you've described it. My guest is Margaret Morgan Roth Collette. And we're talking about her new book Age wise fighting the new age ism in America and really what that means. Please call us at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 and get in on this conversation we're about to shift to talking about the importance of popular culture in also perpetuating some of the stereotypes. But we got a Facebook comment already and this I think you'll appreciate that this is from Francis Marino and she says I believe age ism exists as people treat me with

more respect when they see my white hair. I used to color my hair until about age 60. Doors are open for me and I'm let inside buildings first. This is an emphasis eyes. Many times I'm 64 and want to be considered self-reliant but I say thank you so as not to hurt feelings. Now I'm thinking some people think I'm weak and unable to open those doors. Yes. So in your book you make the point that we are by all of the forces around us advertising particularly and media being ratcheted up to have an irrational fear of aging. To be to be in a place where somebody might think Francis is unable to open the door for herself even though she's just because she has white hair and there's there's some association with that. Talk to us a little bit about that. And listeners were at before you speak 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 8 9 7 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Get in on this conversation. Irrational is a very strange word to use about what's happening in American culture

popular culture and just the way we talk to one another. If it's really true for example that midwives job discrimination exists if it's harder to get a job it's harder to keep a job. It's harder to get promoted because you're over 40 or 50 or 60. If your health care is going to cost you twice or three times under Obamacare what a younger person's. Health care is going to cost under these new insurance rules that fearing that knowing about it worrying about it. Those are not irrational fears. What we have is a situation in which the mistake is to think that this is happening because of our aging. Instead of saying to ourselves but this is AGES I'M it isn't just the fact that I'm getting older. That is I don't know what that means I mean does it mean my grey hairs or

whatever but it has nothing to do with my job performance it has nothing to do with whether insurance should cover me. At the same price that it covers younger people that Ages them that Middle Ages them. That's the decline ideology. And now I'm hoping that we will have more language for commentators pundits and ordinary people like my friends to use to describe what's going on particularly as we have a population that is aging so and well these baby boomers. I'm Cali crossing we're talking about America's misconceptions about aging. With my guest Margaret Gilette. Her new book is age wise fighting the new age ism in America. Listeners What do you think about getting older. Be honest tell us what goes through your mind when you see someone who is older. If you consider yourself old are you fighting it. Are you rolling with it. 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. We'll be back after this break. Stay with us.

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I'm Kalee Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show if you're just tuning in we're talking about getting older and the misconceptions we harbor as a society about getting old. My guest is Margaret Gilette Her latest book is age wise fighting the new age ism in America. Listeners we want you in on this conversation 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. How old do you feel and what makes you feel low. Being called ma'am or Gramps. When do you feel young. What stereotypes about aging influence how you feel about your age. 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 a 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 and you can send us a tweet or write to our Facebook page. Right now we're going to Jim on from pocket Go ahead please join the callee cross Leisha. All right sorry Matt from Massachusetts go ahead please you're on the callee Crossley Show.

Good afternoon Michael. Then isn't comment very unprofessional. Twenty six years old and in the construction industry is seen to be a little bit difficult getting a job and everything else right now but what relationships have you seen between aging and different professions. It seems like this profession is that the younger you are the better it is. All the sweet talk a little bit about. Thank you I thank you very much. Go ahead Margaret How would you respond to that. Oh that sweet spot that's sweet spot. How short it is. I think that's a good question. The yes there certainly are jobs in which it is better to be younger and I think possibly construction is one of them referring back to that 60 year old woman's sense that she is being considered frail. But what I was discovering. When I looked at the midlife jobless picture which I've been following for about 15 years now is that it used to be

manufacturing jobs that people were losing them in their middle years. What is the other trend that we can mention in terms of the New Age ism is that now it's hitting managerial and professional people and like the friend that I mentioned who was getting I had a master's in art history and highly credentialed Yes highly credentialed like so many people who are now not as visible as they should be. So when you move from manufacturing jobs and we know a lot about what's happened to them they've been outsourced and whatnot. The professional managerial jobs are a little more complex. And here I want to say that I believe that this is part of capitalisms business plan that in fact they don't want to pay higher wages to older people. And there are a lot of political factions in our culture who. Who want to end seniority in

its broader sense. When I use the word seniority I mean not just union based seniority which I think is very valuable and certainly supports a vision of the life course that most of us agree is important. That is to say you do get more respect as you get older. But the attempt to end seniority at all levels whether it's union based or based on former respect for getting older that I believe is eroding. I think those are really important issues in this culture. I would add Margaret if I may that in my own business you know this misconception thing beaking right to Matt's comment is huge in my business people assume that if you're older you know people who have been in the news business can't learn all of the all of the complicated technological stuff. So what's been interesting to happen and they assume that the young people know it all. First of all that's been incorrect a lot of the young people don't

know it all. Second of all sometimes speed really is the issue now with because it's such a fast turnaround of information and it turns out the old people trained on being speedy then no. How to turn it around fast and the young people do not. So you can't always assume you know who will be best at any of these jobs you have to. I just want put that in. All right we're going to go back to calls. Elisa from Rhode Island Go ahead please. Hi thanks for having me on the phone. I just wanted to make a quick comment about thinking older people are less capable I'm 40 and we were brought up in my family to respect anyone that is older than you. It could be five 10 years or even more. And so when I go out and I see someone that is older I don't immediately think of them as less capable but I've been taught to always be aware or to respect them. So that means opening doors or letting them come in front of me in line or on the point.

Yeah. It's not necessarily because I don't think they're capable it's their respect to show that I find that. That's why I would gravitate towards you know helping someone out that's older than me. Do you think that there is a new kind of ages in that my guest has been talking about going on. I do I do and I do. And I said I I am 40 and I have a 4 year old kid. So I left the workforce and now I'm trying to go back into it and it's very daunting for me in large part because of my age I feel that people are looking to hire younger because they're not as expensive or not to the company. You know I have more experience than that experience. Asked for a higher salary where they could hire three people to do the job of my house myself so I think that's where my fear is that the agents are not people that are younger being hired because they're not as expensive to hire and they can get and think they can get more work out of them where truly someone who's going to experience works more can work for us. Julie I feel right.

Thank you very much for the call Alisa you are. Thank you. OK. Kathy from Cape Cod you're on the Calla Crossley Show Go ahead please. The hi I was just commenting. Also on the feeling is if people were treating you as being frail if they opened doors for you I'm going to be 76 next week. I do color my hair so I wouldn't be white but I'd be sort of MLC gray probably. And I'm delighted when people will open the doors for me and I will turn around and open the doors to somebody else whether they're young or old. And I think it's just a conduit a kind of a courtesy if you happen to be in the position where it's most convenient for you to open a dual or or let somebody pass or whatever. And I certainly would never be offended. Well that's excellent Do you think there is a kind of new age ism going on though. Probably. I could barely read time and I worked in finance and I've been on the case for quite a few years now and I've been taking a little pot time to ride along and I've never had a problem with getting a little part time job because that's all I wanted.

But I do know some of my friends who have children who have been you know laid off by the big companies and have a you know they're in their mid. Years and have children in high school or even in college and are having a very tough time getting a job and I think there's a lot of truth to the fact they figure if they hire young people they can get them at very low salaries and train them they want the way they want to be trained and not worry about all that experience which is very bad. Yes it is. All I want to comment to you that it's wonderful the way you keep repeating of the telephone numbers because I listen mostly when I'm in the car and it's never easy to write down a phone number when I hear a call you know or to call an 800 number or whatever. Well thank you. The fact that you repeat it so many times that I you know I didn't get it. OK. Thank you very much for that I'm about to repeat again and thank you for the call. Yeah all right bye bye.

Our number is 8 7 7 3 0 0 1 eighty nine seventy eight 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 and you can tweet us or send us a comment to the Facebook page. Let's see Jim. Go ahead please you're on the Kelly Crossley Show we will the other callers about the courtesy but underneath that seems to be an assumption of frailty. My circumstances I'm going back to school I'm disability because of physical injury and there are the realities of late adulthood early older age that I have to deal with. But yesterday someone pulled over to offer me a right. I had just spent the morning giving therapeutic massage to patients in a hospital as a volunteer had a bag full of books and I think I was walking fairly fast because I didn't want my icecream to know which young lady pulled over was very nice of her but I just think that feel that people want to me and I think. Thank you.

Well you know what you do raise an interesting question that. My guest Ms Collette does address in her book and that that is you know the fear of the illness sort of underscoring the fear of aging and that somehow now the assumption is that you will be ill if you age and that's not necessarily the case you want to address that. I'm I'm happy to talk about the disjuncture between moving towards old age and actually being physically sick or mentally or cognitively disabled in some way. And I think we need to think about these disabilities more the way the disability movement has taught us to think about them as if you have it. We need to take care of it. We need to I mean as a society I don't I'm not talking about people picking you up or opening the doors or whatnot. I'm always interested

more in collective responses to social social issues. It's a disaster for our society that we are moving towards a more your own your own kind of attitude towards physical disability or cognitive losses. I mean one of the things that is most disturbing is that when these things happen to much older people when they do happen to older people and it would save many people move into their 90s and they are still cognitively able and they are still physically able. And I saw this at my mother's retirement community. But there are others who are not. And this is intricately tied in to class race and gender. You are likely to be ill earlier in the life course if you are poor.

That's simply a fact. And and when we do things like raise the Social Security age from 65 to 67 which happened a few years ago and was considered a reform to my mind that is a terrible response to. Our aging population. In other words we get longevity and then it's assumed that everybody is going to be healthy later. But because we have such inequality in America and such growing inequality in America it simply isn't true that everybody is going to be that 90 is going to be the new 70. That's not true. I mean maybe you know for some people 50 is the new 80. They just get sick earlier and that was part of the Katrina story. Yes. Yes. All right. Thank you very much for that call and that because that prompted a really good response from I guess R.J. you're on the Kelly Crossley Show Go ahead please.

I'm trying to become. An aircraft mechanic at Boston Logan International and the problem is I'm just not going to school here. I mean my 40. And so by the time I get out of school and get my first it's great I'm going be competing with people who are twice my junior. So I'm just kind of worried about my prospect of getting a job at that mechanic. And to be able to compete effectively in a field although I have a very in-depth knowledge of aircraft and then the aircraft operation. I talked to a few mechanics has been there for years and it will be 20 some years before I can be able to get a job as a lineman or check mechanic. OK so you know I'm just kind of warning you to paint a disparity in the airline industry myself I did it. Yes you know what I think is very interesting RJ not only your story specifically about the mechanics but every time we have one of these near misses these horrendous stories then we look to see who is the pilot. And it's always

Captain Sully so Sullenberger who has some age and experience and all the other pilots always say gee if I had been in that seat I don't know that I could do that. It was because he was that age and had that experience that he was able to say landed in the Hudson and that's it. Then he just landed the plane and made sure everybody got off. So you know it. When I hear it you know I have you know I've been in the airline industry for many years in different various phases and my most recent job was in the public as a flight attendant. But I'm tired of dealing with the public that want to see something I actually really enjoyed I think I missed my calling to become a mechanic because I'm very knowledgeable of their system and I almost became a flight engineer on the 727 five years ago so clearly I think up and understand a fact I am going to go to school in my 40 and get out of school in my mid 40s almost 50 and want to come up to the airport and they give me a job line to check the person and

you know they're going to look at my resume say how many years you working in America. Yeah I know that's kind of that's a tough one. Well I wish I knew luck I wish you luck to you. I'm kind of you know 180. Actually even though I had pursued it kind of like you're dealing with it might be worth getting. Well I think you probably should do you know check out the field and look at the range of ages of people doing the job now and maybe they'll give you some insight as to how you know what the hiring practices are and whether those people who are on the upper age on the end of the age spectrum have had any difficulties and that might give you some insight as to which way to go. But you know there's as many people will tell you there's nothing like Passion look at Susan Boyle Hey how old was she and she said you know there you go. So RJ thank you very much for the call. You know we get so many people have stories as R.J. day has and

the thing that I think everybody thought might be different and maybe we wouldn't you would be writing a book about New Age ism is that the baby boomers were so huge and had such an impact on how we looked at living and life and now aging. I mean I know you said and you're correct that it depends on who you are and what your resources are about whether or not. 50 will be the new 30 for you. But when we look at for example something like a r p they've completely changed the whole image of who they are they have they certainly have tried to based on this huge cohort of people. So what has been the impact it doesn't seem to have still shifted attitudes in a way that we thought maybe this large group of people would have. That's why I think we need a tremendous anti aging movement in the United States that would be like the civil rights movement or the women's movement. We simply are outgunned so to speak by the forces that I describe in my book

and we've touched on a few of them here. I mean if the Supreme Court is institutionalizing certain forms of ages and middle ages if capitalism does not want these more expensive midwife workers. If various other cultural forces are aging women sexually at men a pause if plastic surgery and so-called anti-aging goods are being sold to us I mean we've barely. I haven't touched on the commerce in aging which is the whole money industry the occasion industries the dysfunction industries of drugs. Yes the drugs the surgeries whatever the hormones the. If these are immense forces. Now I don't want people to be discouraged. I don't want them to say maybe I should shouldn't try. I want people to unite. I want people to say this is not this should not be my

problem. This should be a collective problem that the United States tries to solve. And there are there are ways to solve it. I mean Congress could override that bad Supreme Court decision in gross versus FBO financial services. But Margaret Morgan Roth if the baby boomers this large cohort of people who decided they were going to age differently are not having the huge impact that I think they I would have thought they would have. You know what chance do we have to change this narrative. Activism changes a lot of things. I mean if people realize that this is not about aging past youth it's not about aging past the middle years that it's about ages in Middle Ages and the decline ideology. I think that what comes first is anger now anger can be very functional it can move you from point A where you are just a passive recipient of these hits to point B where you say well I'm going to do something I'm going to speak up for unions I'm going to speak up for seniority I'm going to talk about the

generic problems the communal problems the collective problems. Do you think boomers want to speak up to admit that they're older. Up would make you have to admit that. Well I want an intergenerational movement. I mean of course 40 year olds can say they're not stymied. They can say I'm 40 years old but you don't have to say your age if you were in a movement that contains all ages. I mean the civil rights movement had the kids and it had the wise gray heads and that was a fabulous model for what I'm thinking about. And nobody thought to say well you know what can the kids do. Well you know if they can stand up to those is great. You know I mean not that oh you know my movement is going to get the hoses out after it. No it's going to be they're going to be hammered by the money the money that is behind ages and middle ages and the big banks the big pharmaceutical companies the big corporations. I mean this is a progressive movement. It's a really progressive movement that I'm calling for.

So you know they're going to try to knock it down and they're going to try to knock us down if we go forward. And all I want to say is let's try you know let's try. Let's talk about this more. There was there was. I was talking to a talk show host in New York and he said I tried to do aging on my program and I just couldn't get any interest in it. Well I don't know what was wrong with his show which was a couple of years ago but I think that there is a great deal of latent interest and I think it can be tapped by shows that recognize how widespread ages and middle ages and decline are and who realize that there is something that can be done against it and that people are suffering. I mean we actually we heard from two people maybe who are suffering or might be suffering from this. There's a huge audience out there that is much more gravely injured and we didn't even get to

cognitive loss which is an area close to my heart because of my mother. Well I think the first step always is just understanding what New Age ism is as you've greatly detailed and and how pervasive it is. And I think people be shocked as they as they read your book so thank you for that. We Margaret we've been talking about aging with Margaret Collette and her book is age wise fighting the new age ism in America. Thanks again. Thank you. And drop in next a conversation with singer songwriter Livingston Taylor on the art of performing. Some also treat us to a few of his songs. We'll be back after this break stay with us. Support for WGBH comes from you and from 10 marks students can lose more

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Work and out of them but I'm callin crossly This is the Calla Crossley Show. We're listening to Livingston Taylor's tracks Carolina day on his 1970 debut album. He is with me in the studio today with the guitar. Yes he's the 19 shopping day was I ever a bat. Young Yes you are. She still are. His latest album by the way listeners as last Alaska mon its 16th. He just updated his book stage performance a must guide for performers. He's also a professor at Berklee College of Music where he's taught for more than 20 years Livingston Taylor welcome. Cali thank you so much. Great to be here. I'm just thrilled to have. You. That's very sweet of you and I'm delighted to know I never met up. Clearly a camera microphone or a mirror that I didn't like. I hear OK well you teach stage performance something you've been teaching at Berkeley for some time and I thought this is so fabulous.

I didn't assume other people teach it but you know this is a perfect course to be taught to people who are going to be professional musicians and artists and it seems to me that there is a lot to teach. Well there there is a lot to teach. What we find is that we've got a creative output and we want people to listen to our creativity. But what's what's essential is that in what I teach is really the framework in which that should go. I start with some basic premises the most basic being that an audience must be safe if they are not safe. They will not suspend and their reality and enter your reality. So the question is how do we make them safe. How do we put them into an environment where they're where they're going to be protected and that has a lot to do with the early part of what I teach in my course. What I like is something you've said that nobody says that you are employed by the audience that's what you tell these people. And that is really important. You don't

think about artists thinking that they have to understand that. But one of the things I do occasionally I'll give lectures to high school kids. I'm not terribly enthusiastic about teaching high school students. I love them and I love being with them. But I'm not. But generally the musicality level is not high enough it's not high as it is with with college students and particularly Berkeley College of Music students. But. With high school students one of the things I love to say is have you heard from your parents and others that you're beautiful and talented and you can do what ever you want. And I think yeah. And then I look at them and I have you become the suspect. This isn't something that makes them of course laugh and and it and it's and it's not so. As we transition from the vertical integration of a family unit to the horizontal integration of our peer group. And that's what adolescence is. How do you leave the family and join your peer

group. And that's what that and I get the students and my book stage performance is really about how do you make that that transfer. How do you make a transfer from from a family unit which was biologically predisposed to like you to a peer group which is under no such Going straight that they're just looking at you and they're going honey what do you bring into the party. Exactly and and how do you. How do you bring to the party how do you see what the party needs. These are this is what my book is about and what my course is about of course you've had thousands of performances yourself so you have money you have you know I want you to answer the question what makes what you've said with that the audience has to be safe. But what makes an excellent performance specifically. Well first off one must be doing melody and tonality that that that speaks to the human condition or to the human condition of the audience that's listening. Now that the audience that's listening to the B.S.

So is obviously different than the people who are listening to the Sex Pistols. Yeah. At any given time and it's so so there. They are different looking but they are all human beings and they're going to have similarities of what they need in terms of safety in terms of protection. And so. Musically what you want to do is you want to play chords that are compelling and good you want melodies that are interesting and above all else you want to tell a story that is in fact compelling to the human condition does you say. Every performer is a storyteller. It's Honey we're all telling stories all the time. You cannot but tell a story every time you move every time you walk on the street every time you look at another person. They're telling you a story and you're telling wonder them. Question is we want to get stories that not only do people want to hear.

Excuse me that they want to pay to hear again. What about body language. What do you say as a performer what are you giving off that that will make it possible for me to feel safe and feel OK about my 60 bucks I just want to hear you. But that's not what I cost because I don't know why I never married somebody. I just made that up by somebody right here to me. I made a decision you know I got 25. OK. OK but you know I'm going to be the body language that I stand when I walk onstage. What I like to let an audience know is that I need them a great deal more than they need me that their presence means that my life is saved. I've gotten my sentence has been commuted by their presence and their presence they don't have to

like me they don't have to love me they don't have to anything the fact that they are there in even one of them is there means that my my life is saved. I am so happy you feel that way about your listeners. For example if you look at the life of course you do your listeners say here and that they are here means you live another day. So and so I say let me see. Celebrate here's a here's the truth you're teaching people hopefully to be very good performers and that's Afghanistan you know at the beginning of their careers. But we got to know I mean I know that there are some bad performers out there who claim to be professional. Yes well I mean how many professional performers are really really good at stage. Well one of the things one of the truths of life you'll you'll you'll pardon me Kelly one of the truths of life is that life and success does not belong to the talented beautiful and deserving. It belongs

to the tenacious and the fortunate and that you or I may not like them doesn't mean that they are not in fact likable to somebody I'm not. The good that can be not likable and be good I write below that to me. If somebody likes them then they're good right. Listen it's what I admire is I admire people being successful. I know him when I hear their tonalities that I don't understand. Listen I'm 60 years old. I've been doing it for 40 plus years. I play thousands of times. I have critiqued in terms of performers I've critiqued over ten thousand performances in my time at Berkeley and and there are performances and people. If a 16 year old plays me music that I don't like what I like to say to that 16 year old is not I don't like to be derogatory to what he or she

is enjoying what I like to do is say I don't understand this. And I'm assuming that the fault is with me. What am I what should I be listening for. What can I get her. And and so you open all boy I'm wide open because if they like um I want to like to let me know what why am I not hearing this. What am I missing. What's wrong with me. How do you translate to your book. And we're going to get you to play in just a second. You know something that how do you write down something that's so organic really. You know you're capturing something that's you know hard to really put your hands around. Well it's it's it is difficult but but that said what I did to write stage performance was I took a I taped all my classes taped the flow of them and then assembled a mythical class basically and and took that class through a semester and I speak a little bit about

success but it's much more fun to talk about failure. Success is frankly rather boring. Failure comes in a infinite rainbow. Let them do well as far as I'm concerned you're never a failure when you're performing so I'm going to ask you to perform well. So let's see what we what we do here we take a guitar. And now the first thing we do is we have tonality. And I want you to know that when I play the guitar I pick it up. And although I've been doing it for many many decades I can't believe that I know how to play the guitar. When I pick it up and it goes. With. It. And it sounds good. All I can think is sore. And then. I and I love a like in a song that says the first time you

fall for somebody. The world becomes a lucky charm. You bomb back a. Third bomb go wrong. Next time you fall you think you heard it all. No one could turn you inside out. And your friends hear you say this your hearts that so. I'll bonder dead soul babalawo Well it's time for giving you. A. Second time school and you'll find the love takes your hand in the end vs you home some. First time big and your heart beat

books may eight candidates. Find the love picked bad you had to be skewed on the top. I just never want to interrupt your singing it sounds so wonderful but I gotta let our listeners know where they can hear more of you. Your soon and then I'm going to ask you to play a little bit more on our way out and you are lucky listeners have been listening to the wonderful dulcet tones of Livingston Taylor and I thank you so much for coming in to talk Allie. It's so lovely to be here with you this afternoon. OK. Singer songwriter Livingston Taylor will be performing this Saturday June 11th at Union Hall in Carlisle Massachusetts. Yes but I have to interrupt and say that that one sold out. OK well let me be clear that there's nothing more fun than promoting a sold out show. Yeah I will have a great I don't care about it all well just the website for

the next performance will be down on Martha's Vineyard. OK in the individual law are you going to air and OK go talk I'm going to be quiet. Right OK there you go this is Gallagher the Calla Crossley Show and we're a production of WGBH radio and here's Livingston Taylor taking us out. Finance from burned up to. Stoke up in red heat. Take one more shot pared to the bone chased up a tree. Easy. When you hear shot all the way down to the cup in there. He loves the bear when they're holding up their hearts and they're kicking up their heels send them along. When they finally arrive.