WGBH Radio; The Callie Crossley Show

I'm Sue O'Connell. This is the Kelly Crossley Show. Can you name the forty four American presidents in chronological order. How about recalling the 50000 digits of pi. Well if you can't you're not alone. But there's something you can do about it. These days we're outsourcing our memories to our Zip drives computers and cell phones but our guest writer Joshua Foer argues that in exchange for technological advances we're depleting one of our greatest human resources our own memory banks. Once the kind of guy who lost his keys who couldn't tell you what he had for breakfast only hours ago he's gone on to win the U.S. Memory Championship in his new book Foer explores the ancient techniques that any of us can use to maximize our memories. But first we'll kick off the hour with a look at local politics and Tito Jackson's big win as district sevens new city councilor. But first the news. From NPR News in Washington the Lions problems continue to

plague the Fukushima nuclear power complex in Japan. NPR's Christopher Joyce reports. Fires broke out at two reactors and radiation levels spiked driving workers away from the site. The day started badly at the complex with two fires breaking out. One was at the number three unit and was followed by a spike in radiation at the site. Workers were moved away from the reactor for several hours but government officials say some are now back at the complex. The fire and high temperatures prompted an attempt to pour water on the reactor from a helicopter. That mission was canceled However apparently because radiation levels were too high above the reactor. Another reactor at Fukushima number four also produced steam or smoke earlier in the day. That disappeared but workers are concerned about a large pool of water at the reactor where used fuel rods are kept until they cool water levels have dropped in the pool. And so far workers have not been able to get more water into it. Christopher Joyce NPR News Tokyo.

An American CIA contractor is believed to have left Pakistan after being acquitted of murder. Pakistani officials say Raymond Davis's release followed a payment of so-called blood money to the victim's families. Davis shot and killed two Pakistanis in Lahore on January 27 after what he described as an attempted armed robbery. He said he acted in self defense. The U.S. said he had diplomatic immunity and should have been immediately repatriated. Bahraini forces are coming under fire for using tear gas tanks and rubber bullets on anti-government protesters. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton interviewed by CBS television says using troops to help put down the demonstrations is the wrong approach. Instead Clinton urged Bahrain to negotiate a political agreement with the protesters. Stocks on Wall Street are down again today analysts say a report showing a sharp drop in building permits in the U.S. for February is contributing to the decline. Meanwhile NPR's Louisa Lim says stocks rebounded today in Asia.

Japan rebounded to close up more than five and a half percent after a precipitous two day slide. Analysts said the markets have been oversold by nervous investors and now bargain hunting was driving the index back up again. The Bank of Japan pumped 43 billion dollars into the market today. Japan's big exporters performed well with Toyota up more than 9 percent and Sony up 8 and a half percent. And construction and steel stocks also saw gains. South Korea climbed more than 1 percent while Australia also closed up 0.7 percent. However Indonesia in the Philippines who are both somewhat dependent on exports to Japan closed lower as did Vietnam and Malaysia. Analysts say uncertainty over the future in Japan means the volatility is likely to continue. Louisa Lim NPR News Beijing. The current numbers on Wall Street the Dow has lost one hundred sixty seven points. Good afternoon I'm Sue O'Connell in for Kelly Crossley This is the Kelly

Crossley Show today we have writer Josh Foer in studio to talk about his new book Moonwalking with Einstein. It's all about memory and what any of us can do to improve it. We'll be taking your calls at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0. That's 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0 but first we're talking local politics with a little focus on yesterday's special election to fill Chuck Turner see. I'm joined by our political regulars Marvin Vinay executive director of the Massachusetts black and Latino Democratic Legislative Caucus and Dorrie Clark president of Clark strategic communications Welcome back I say good to be here. Good to see you as well in person. So tell me last night's election or yesterday's election of Tito Jackson was certainly no surprise. But were there any surprises in it. I don't think that there were many surprises necessarily. I think the race played out the way it looked in the primary to some extent. You could see that there were some strides

made by Cornell mills to increase his voter base. But you know you could clearly see that you know Jackson was able to continue to propel from his his preliminary win. You know dory one of the things I was struck by in looking at the election breakdown was how much money Tito Jackson spent on this election now of course a special election has all sorts of challenges ahead of it and I think that the low voter turnout is representative of special elections but Tito Jackson spent I think a hundred seven thousand dollars according to a Boston Globe article. Versus Cornell Mills $4500 no last time I checked. And then you both correct me on this but it was about 30 to 70 thousand dollars you would need to raise for a city council race was somewhere in that ballpark yeah yeah more or less on the lower end. In recent years that race is not cost more than about $35000 right. And in some ways I think they've spent much lower than that. Chuck Turner was fiscally

conservative so he did not spend a lot of money when it came to his campaigns. Now Representative State Representative Carlos Enriquez when he ran he didn't spend more than $20000 so you know it you know I really would say probably on the lower end that he spent so I think that this race really generated has not seen that much money flooded into it in some years and I would say at least a decade or more. And what does this represent do you think Dori all the money that Tito was able to raise. Well Tito Jackson is someone who's very politically well-connected I mean in addition to. A Long Grove Hall history because of his his parents his father was a well-known activist in the community. He most notably was a political director for Governor Patrick so he knows all the right people he was able to bring in significant money and I think part of his success in this race from his his thumping success to an 80 plus percent of the vote was the fact that he's really kind of a good bridge candidate I mean I I would like to say is a good government person that you know know well that you know this was clearly a you know a new

generation being embraced and you know Chuck Turner with the bribery scandal you know we're moving past that but the truth is Chuck Turner endorsed this guy. And so nonetheless he was able to successfully harness all the people who like Chuck Turner and the people who said we need change we need a young 36 year old guy who's going to be clean and do the right thing. Well I mean you also want to take in consideration that you know Jackson came into this race not unknown individual I mean he ran a city. Prayer for city council at large 130 thousand plus votes last year just last year so you know the name recognition is there he had the brand and he's got the name recognition I mean I think the first time you see I remember the first time I saw Tito Jackson's son when he was running last time I was on the day that Michael Jackson died. Oddly enough I remember thinking like oh my goodness who is this guy. And of course I thought so. So he's got a bridge. So I mean from from that perspective I mean alone you have to take in consideration that you know you're going up against a machine regardless not to mention the assets that he has from being just coming out the governor's campaign and having worked with a couple other candidates in the race is that you know he pulled

in you know some of the guards who were candidates themselves who understood the need of running a campaign successfully you know what the challenges that they faced were why they weren't successful and turned those into you know how he was going to approach this race himself so you know I think overall you know Tito flooded it with over $100000. I don't know if that was necessary. It might have been excessive if you say. However I think at the end of the in day is that you know we knew early on that he had a marker in the beginning of this race. And so for a special session of six weeks. You know I think that's a lot of money. I was speaking with Marvin Vinay and Dory Clarke were talking politics especially Tito Jackson's win yesterday in the in the District which includes Roxbury lower Roxbury parts of the South and parts of the Fenway and parts of Dorchester so pretty pretty fractured district endure one of the things that both candidates ran on including Cornell Mills was finding a way to unify this district you know

the South End where I'm at with the South the news is got split in half almost with with with no unified voice. Is this a challenge I mean. I mean is this something that you think either one of these candidates would have been able to do. Sure. Well it definitely is a challenge I mean historically Chuck Turner has held the seat for over a decade has been the Roxbury guy. He has been on the council along with Charles Yancey his colleague the voice of you know we're out here representing African-Americans and. And they were they were a block in some ways and a certain slice too I mean a slice within a slice of a very vocal and I don't want to say you know Chuck Turner he might have appeared as if he was pro black or for what you know but he was pro It was yeah but he was pro anti establishment and he spoke for all people I mean if you look at any of his rallies most of them were not black people that were there. You know there's so many I mean like you know he cut across the board so you know I wouldn't necessarily think that he was just one demographic.

You know I think that the strength that Tito Jackson brings is that he's somebody who is not you know well the folks who are anti-establishment can look upon him with pride. He is not in any way anti-establishment this is this is the most establishment of guys who's coming off of. A high level position in the government and you know working for Governor Patrick's campaign. And so I think that he will probably be successful it'll be interesting to see who he aligns himself with in terms of his voting bloc in his early moves. But I think what it also be it also be to add on how is he how is he going to adapt to the community. As far as integrating the community and process Chuck Turner was very vocal about partnering with the community and making sure the community had a voice at the table and that they were well-informed. So you know it's going to be interesting you know. And I hate to stick to this point but I think about the financial aspect to spend a hundred thousand dollars on this in a short term race. You know now you have to round up more money to run for campaign in the fall. But then you also if you look at it you know Chuck Turner was able to

maintain a district office which made him very successful because he had the district office. Well to you know be able to maintain that sort of activity to really talk about unifying a community and making sure that the community has an outlet and in a space for itself to feel like it is connected to city hall directly from right in its own right in its home base so those are things that come to mind when I think about the results of this race so I talk a little bit too about Cornell Mills who you know is known as Dianne Wilkerson son of course but that isn't all that he's identified that he had a very good run in this race. He did and I think that you know when we talk about Tito Jackson not winning last time but I think everyone knew that Tito Jackson was going to be back and we're going to get elected. Cornell Mills really really has stepped up a notch in terms of his his his public profile what I stand throughout right. Yeah. And his visibility and I think that you know Tito was able to do was transfer from you know coming in close are not close I wouldn't know 10000 11000 votes that's not too close but. That the point I'm making is that he came within reach of

some sort closer than the other candidates who lost. And so he was able to then turn that around so you know if you look at a Cornell Mills who came out as an unknown in the very beginning more or less classified as just like you said Dianne Wilkerson son what came away if you know a lot more stronger presentation in some ways you know when you look at the if you start to gauge the community on certain things I mean there was a there was a complete difference between the two as it relates to the addressing the questions. And so you know you go back to the establishment versus the anti establishment and then if you know if you're stablish you know how to process answers and make sure that you say the right things at the right time. If you're anti-establishment you know how to say them but you also are articulating a way that's relatable to the average citizen so this is a big toss up if you will. Yeah. And I don't I don't know as I was telling earlier before we walked in this race isn't over I mean we're talking about this just was a victory right now congratulations you know Jack for be victorious right now. But he hasn't really wanted to he has to run again the next six months. I mean he actually he

doesn't have six months to really settle in a seat before he has to start campaigning again so this is going to be a tough tough market for everyone in the short term. This is a very exciting city council. I mean I have to say that that in the many years that I've been involved in watching the Boston City Council it really does feel like. You know that will be a lot of bully pulpit issues which is really what the you know the wheel house is for the city council. We might have some good conversations. We might and I think part of what lends some excitement to that is the fact that contrary to rumors Tom Menino is not immortal and eventually he's going to step down eventually and most likely just as he ascended into being mayor from being a counselor you know someone is going to have that opportunity whether you know he gets an appointment or goes off somewhere and someone takes over or they'll be a race and a city council or is in a prime position to do that why would you spend $100000 on a district city council. Oh I don't know maybe you want to position yourself to be a front running black candidate. Who knows.

You know I've heard a little bit too about my clarity. You know it's always around. I know. Mike doesn't leave makes the leaving Mike like clarity who was city councilor and also one time president the Boston city councillor and he he's thinking definitely about I should say I think definitely but I hear that he's thinking about getting into the race again if you guys heard anything. I mean that's been going on speculation for the last seven or eight months is rather not Mike's going to return to Mike's in-tree point to go to city council or large always been successful and his hopes is to potentially knock off the most two recent count down soldiers who come in. Although I think he will have a huge challenge. You know Mike Flaherty is well liked. But you know I think that you know he's going to have a challenge when you talk about these last two candidates who came in and then you know you have to ask yourself the question you know do you want to disrupt the disk's attempt to disrupt the diversity that's a part of the the foundation that we've fought so hard to achieve in say that we reflect in a city like Boston that has a

variety of cultures. You know why do we want to reach reestablish where we were before. The other sore point that I think the other point I think that is seldom talked about is Steve Murphy Steve Murphy is a candidate the president is the president student council. But Steve Murphy has been that candidate who has in some way slid by. Yeah. You know he's not necessarily been the well received on the campaign trail he's not been the most vailable to you know but he has relationships and relationships gone far away. And if you have already been in the establishment for saying you've been on there for so long your name just kind of gets to him recently just ran for state treasurer in the Democratic primary against you. So I think at some point the voter and the average voter is going to start to pay attention to the train can't swim and say Does he really want to be on city council. Well no you're not he has also been running for everything on God's green earth for last 15 years. And if we continue down this road or do we makes you know just minutes I mean do I made a point in an editorial last

week I think you know I think I'm not sure what it was but that you know the new Boston is not necessarily the Boston of color it's the Boston of new ideas. And in some ways it's a shedding of that like Mike. Like O'Malley just got elected you're right he's a white guy but he's definitely part of the new Boston right and the new Boston should include colors right. Oh absolutely yeah. Should not exclude that I don't know and I think you're right it gets to a point where the consciousness begins to say we're New Boston we're just new set of leadership but this leadership is non-reflective in some ways of the demographic that we have come out with with this census. You know the increasing minorities who are living in Massachusetts versus the ones who've moved out and why have they moved out because they don't feel like there's anough of a relationship with the current establishment and how we can start to you know infuse new leadership. And we'll talk about this later as we get to obviously the U.S. not actually because we're too busy talking about all this. Tell you what we get here to talk about your city raise what I felt is that.

And let's talk a little about the redistricting before we jump out though our census is coming back in April the numbers it it's going to it's going to be a whole lot of thought. Yes and there's going to be some if we're looking at this correctly there will be some some added added seats on the House side on the Senate side as well as congressionally we might be able to position something to to make some shifts with the congressional district that is the hope. But you know more importantly I think that you know you will see some space for some some more elected officials to come on the House and Senate side as well that's the goal. What do you think Ari. Yeah I think it's going to be a pitched battle I mean if we if we think back to the stakes of redistricting I mean remember this is where Tom Finn Arinze downfall came from restricting his so important to Massachusetts that literally the speaker of the house got himself kicked out and in under criminal investigation because of tinkering relating to this. So you will see any tinkering this go around. That's where you'll be watching their backs. I was in the brown race got Brown running for Senate and said he warned looks like

he's going to be pushing forward hard. We were talking about there so there are two candidates out there right now who have websites already up you know former lieutenant governor nominee Marcy Ramesh was running and he already has an established Web site and he started do some networking and he's been out in the community so now he's launched an exploratory committee just school of Sam Driscoll was Salem as well I think that one's going to get back and I don't think is in the best interest recapped want to get back in doing you know I'm hearing mixed things. He obviously has a lot of fire in his belly but it's hard to say what he's going to do. And Coakley I don't think so no. OK all right well that a lot I have to wrap it up for this session but we'll have to have you both back because clearly we can talk for a long time I've got a couple of things. Great thanks so much we've been talking to your colleagues this modern day executive director of the Massachusetts black and Latino Democratic Legislative Caucus and Dorrie Clark founder and CEO of Clark Strategic Communications thanks for joining us up next. It's writer Josh Foer a man with an

average memory who took a stab at the U.S. Memory Championship and went on to set a record. We'll be back after this break stay with us. Support for WGBH comes from you and from Hanover theatre presenting a conversation with Steve Martin a Q&A from one of Americas most loved and respected entertainers and moderated by Joyce Cole Hayward. March 28 at 8 p.m. Hanover theatre org and from Lexus Broadway Across America Boston from Disney and Cameron Mackintosh comes Tony Award winning Mary Poppins at the Boston opera house through March 20th Broadway Across America dotcom part of the Lexus Broadway Across America Boston series and from the New England mobile book fair in Newton. For 54 years. New England's independent bookstore. The New England mobile book fair. Find them online at an e-book fair dot com. That's an e-book fair dot com.

Are doctors rationing health care on the next FRESH AIR health policy analyst Greg Bloch says doctors regularly decide which expensive tests and treatments they can't provide. His new book is The Hippocratic Myth. And how about baseball with no foul line. Historian John Thorne looks at the origins of the national pastime. Join us. This afternoon at 2:00 an eighty nine point seven WGBH. To everyone who supports WGBH NPR and PBS Thank you. And if you've started to renew your WGBH membership in the last year and there's still time to double the impact of your get. Hundreds of New England companies stand with their employees and supporting local nonprofits by offering matching that means you get to that if you gave your employer might to learn more at WGBH dot org slash matching gifts.

If you miss John Corcoran's recent series on wind turbines in Falmouth you can hear them at WGBH dot org. You'll also find extended interviews the debate on the future of renewable energy and much more that's online at WGBH dot org. Good afternoon I'm Sue O'Connell in for Kelly Crossley and this is the Cali cross show my guest journalist Josh forward joins us to talk about his new book Moonwalking with Einstein which is not only about the art and science of memory. It's about his short but successful career as a competitive memory champion Josh welcome. Thank you so much for having me Kelly Crossley Show listeners were happy to take your calls right now. Try and remember this number I know you've been driving and listening to it a lot but see if you can write it down it's 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0. If you'd like some tips on how to improve your memory or if you have your own tales about the riches within your memory bank please give us a call now 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0. Josh your book is fascinating on so many levels and I love

your your storytelling ability within the science of how it all happened and I'm at a loss to even know where to begin to start with you except you know how do you just decide one day that it would be fun to try and be a memory champion and how did you even know there was a memory champion. Well I discovered that there was such a thing as a U.S. Memory Champion by way of Google which on my favorite way to pass time doing quote unquote research. Yeah thank goodness God created Google. And I ended up showing up at one of these contests called the U.S. Memory Championship which is held every spring in New York City. In which people get together and compete to see who can remember the most lines of poetry the most random numbers the most shuffled decks of playing cards the most names of strangers. And I had figured that the people who competed in this contest were like I don't know freaks of nature or something savant. Maybe they had photographic memory. Turned out that's not the case. The people who competed told me that they all had quote unquote average memories and that they had trained themselves to perform these incredible mental gymnastics. And I

didn't totally believe them when they told me this. They were like well you know we could we could teach you. And I said OK. And I ended up spending the better part of the next year training my memory and also trying to understand how it works why sometimes you break down in the book Walking with Einstein. Some of the ancient techniques of how people do this can you briefly for our listeners explain you know just basically who invented the memory tricks if you will. Right and how it how it sets up within your brain. Well it turns out once upon a time the sorts of memory techniques that are being used in these competitions were ones widely known. And widely practiced they go back twenty five hundred years to ancient Greece of course and supposedly an invention made by a Greek poet named Simon of these who figured out that our spatial memories are really good as bad as we are remembering where we put the car keys in people's phone numbers. You know if you were to come over to my house and walk around for a

few minutes you'd remember where the sofa was the refrigerator. That's actually a lot of information that you walk out of the door of my house with and some oddities realized if you could simply transform a building and make it contain images of things that you wanted to remember such a building was later called a memory palace. Those images would be sticky and that's the essence of the technique that is used in a lot of these competitions have Cicero memorized speeches. It's how medieval scholars memorize entire books. The other thing that you talk about or write about in the book is the monic way of remembering things and I have to say that I just recently read an article somewhere. I know I read the article I can't remember where. That you know doing password based on this is a very helpful way of remembering your passwords. Yeah I try and keep my my bank account numbers on my credit card numbers up there and just you know in case I lose them I guess and this is also helpful way though if you're going to compete in the Memory Championship. Yes well I mean in these memory contests the kinds of feats that they're

pulling off are kind of mind blowing out of their mind blowing to me before I understood how they did it. You know the record is I think something like 3000 random numbers in an hour committed to memory and keep in mind these are people who simply taught themselves how to do this with training. Now the most shocking part of all of this that I found was the racing of the files. Right will you know I mean I I've often thought of my brain as a bunch of file folders and if I am terrible at remembering people's names but I have a somewhat photographic memory for as you say spatial stuff. So if I have to remember a phone number I have to remember the full phone number I can't remember it individually but people's names like say Brian David Mark those all live in one file in my head and other names that are more alike live in another file which gets me all kinds of trouble. No but it sounds like you're a mental athlete memory champion. Waiting to be made but I end up calling Mark Brian Brian Mark but that basically is

kind of the set up that works though if I could just pay more attention. Right right well you were asking about the racing and this is one of the things that I find just totally I like to race something strange and beautiful about how these mental athletes with what they call themselves do this. You know in a competition they actually don't want to remember anything for longer than they have to. If they're committing say Paradise lost to memory maybe they want to hold that forever. But if it's you know a string of random numbers that's actually not that useful. So yeah I went to an it went together that was a good time. Right exactly. So after the contest they will consciously try to forget the things that they have so laboriously packed their memories with. And does that involve alcohol or prescription drugs. It involves walking through their memory palaces in their mind's eye and scrubbing them clean. It's it's yeah it's a wonder you know did you go through this did you scratch your mind clear Oh yeah absolutely. Was Jim Carrey in that movie in your head. No

we're taking your calls at a 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0 0. Elise is calling us from Lexington Welcome to the Kelly Crossley Show on WGBH. Thank you very much. I just want to say that I I wanted to memorize the U.S. president. There's that clump in the middle that's always really hard to remember. Yeah the ones no one can remember because our field you know you've learned those years yeah. Millard Filmore Yeah. So I made up this picture in my head of I'm looking at them now because I'm nervous talking on the radio. But I actually did work without looking. So it was like it goes. Tyler Polk Taylor Fillmore PIERCE It's like imagining this guy putting tiles in the shower that's Tyler and he looked out the window and he sees a pig in a pole and then you kind of come back to the room and there's the tailor fixing somebody. Close and then a guy drives up and he wanted gas filled up so that's still more and then someone pierces a balloon and that's

appears so I had that like in my mind and I or you are a champion. You're just ready to go. Seriously you need to enter this next year. This is you know this is all you if you read this book at now I like it. I used this when I was getting knee injections and the anesthetic stuff didn't agree with me so I had to do it without it so I just like went through the presidents in my mind. And she's like every time you get to Lincoln and I'm done. But yeah really that's it. Do you think you would want to compete in. I mean first of all you have to buy the book so you can see how intelligent you are but also you know would you compete on this level. Why not. Yes sure. Excellent we are thanks so much for calling. Talk a little bit Josh about about the actual competition. Sure that sounds absolutely wild and quiet. Well. Yeah I mean the funny thing is it looks to an outside observer like a bunch of guys taking the S.A.T. and then it's by the way not all guys it's a bit guys as of sort of plural plural thank you very much. But what's going on inside their

minds is riotous. It's the art of this competition is in taking things that are unmemorable and forgetful and transforming them in your mind's eye into a scene that is so bizarre lewd raunchy colorful ugly strange that you can't possibly forget it. And to do it really really quickly. So you know while these guys are sitting there massaging their temples I know what's going on in the party and there's a party going on inside their minds and that's the true art of it is actually in creating these images and that's and that's fun. Excuse me I want to read a little bit from your book because I love how it opens. Because if you don't know what the heck this is going you really are about to make some calls on your behalf and maybe do an intervention on t ls for you but Dom DeLuise celebrity fat man and five of clubs has been implicated in the following unseemly acts in my mind's eye. He has talked a fact full of spittle nine of clubs

on Albert Einstein's thick white mane three of diamonds. Now of course what what this is to you are the visual images to help you remember which card is which in which order. Exactly so each of the cards for that event is associated with a different image of a celebrity performing some sort of a bizarre act although it's harder and harder to come up with bizarre acts. It's true Michael Jackson sort of set the bar very high up and now you get Charlie Sheen so I know he'll be very active in people's minds next time. We're speaking with journalist Josh for his new book is Moonwalking with Einstein. We're going to take another call now we're going to speak with Barbara who's over in Webster. Barbara welcome to the Kelly Crossley Show on WGBH. Thank you very much and I just hi. I'm wondering if I'm definitely interested in it. One copy of your book and maybe some from my friends because we all have problems with word retrieval and I'm wondering if any of this is applicable for that. I'll tell you what one of one of the events in the U.S. Memory Championship is called random

words and it sounds absolutely impossible. You know they give you a list of 400 random words and you have to memorize as many of them as possible in perfect order. Yeah. And it turns out this is actually doable. And I would have never guessed it was. But that was that was my entree into this whole world was when somebody first showed me that you could do that and I said wow this is cool I want to I want to learn more. But what about the challenges and I don't know Barbara if you're going through this but at my age now at forty nine and a quarter I'm having a hard time remembering you know and it's just it's just sort of adolescent was kind of a minute pause will you know I don't know if it's a hormonal thing but I can I can't I'll be looking at a pencil and I can't remember it's a pencil. And with that I cared. Are you with me Barbara. Not on the pencil. All right all right you know sitting out for lunch with people and saying but we member that the edits go on I mean we get we had lunch over my brothers on Sunday

and my niece who's 15 was hysterical because we had a complete conversation and none of us use nouns. I know I know I know I didn't. Someone else will. Oh I know. Actually what you mean there are the people in a competition of a certain age I guess is what we're getting you know there's a senior bracket in the world not really a pin chip yeah. How many seniors I think I think 16 about but I don't know how many of them there actually are competing. But for many years in fact every year there's somebody near the top who's in their 40s 50s it's really spans the spans the age range there's hope for us Barbara so renowned by the book right now dance you remember I'm going to be 18 expert. Oh well but I mean I mean I really want to work on the great retrieval end of it and if I can do that by working with the random words maybe that's a good you know if that helps that part of my brain. Will be great. Great thanks so much for calling Barbara we appreciate it. We're speaking with Josh Foer whose new book is Moonwalking with Einstein the art and science of remembering everything you know when I was I

was I have a really great memory. And you know it's we're non throughout my family and I always thought I was just born that way. I really did think and when I became a mother I realized that I was mimicking behavior that my mother did with me which helped me have a better memory and that was when my daughter would take out a toy I'd say oh remember your Uncle Geoff gave you that for Christmas last year. Do you remember we went to his house and we did this and it was not out of any motivation to have or have better memories or or retain memories but it was more just how my mother raised me and at some point when she was talking about something at you know 8 or 9 and someone said wow what a great memory she has. I realize that it's hot. Top experience you know to actually secure a memory with an item and then talk about you know what happened around it and you know my mother never read any memory books I mean it's certainly probably the way that she was raised as well. And are we losing that was I mean first of all I love

that story. I think that's fascinating and it points to something which is you know you can be the kind of person who puts Yuki's down and doesn't pay attention where you put it and forgets because you weren't paying attention and you can do that with other things in your life with everything in your life you can be the kind of person. Doesn't pay attention and treats everything like you throw down your keys. Or you can be like your mother who was taking you know these toys and saying look there's there's all these stories around them and this matters and you have to and pay attention. And that's what makes things memorable and that's more than anything you know any of these techniques in this book that for me is the real takeaway that I came. You know I mean as wonderful as this is that you you know you went from zero to hero I remember a championship. I mean there's a lot of good lessons here about about the sort of scrapbooking phenomenon only doing it in your brain. Sure being present being mindful making sure you're the kind of person who remembers to remember. We're going take a quick call now from my room I was calling us from Boston Myra welcome to

WGBH the Kelly Crossley Show. Oh hi thank you very much for having me Mike. Obviously I will be carrying a copy of the book as well. My question is I am currently in school college I work full time that I go to school part time and I have a young child who is also in school. I have terrible memory he's got a bad memory than I do fortunately. But I wanted to find out what if you would recommend anything to help the both of you know have a better memory and also for his schooling. I would like for him to keep certain things for life I suppose. Do you know you go to school you think that you forget the next day. Yeah you know it's interesting we memories got a bad rap in education it's like almost it's almost a four letter word you know there's no rote memorisation anymore you know. Right. I mean it's not learning but probably for the best in a certain respect that we instead of pounding stuff into kids heads we try and make them abstract thinkers creative

thinkers hopefully good citizens. But we don't make them remember anything anymore. And as a result kids end up coming out of school not knowing when the Civil War which century the Civil War was and you know who the U.S. fought in World War Two sort of important stuff. So I I personally believe that probably the pendulum is going to swing back a little bit and there'll be a real emphasis on on kind of facts and knowledge a little bit. Mara thanks so much for your call we appreciate it. Great to take a quick break when we get back we'll take more of your calls for Josh Foer He's the author of Moonwalking with Einstein the art and science of remembering everything we like your call 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0. Give us a call we'll be back after this break stay with us on eighty nine point seven. WGBH. Support for WGBH comes from you and from Focus Features presenting Jane

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Coming up at 3 o'clock here at eighty nine point seven WGBH. To the millions of individuals who support public broadcasting Thank you. Now more than ever your support is absolutely essential to providing intelligent news music and entertainment to your entire community. Here in New England. Hundreds of companies stand with their employees and supporting local nonprofits by offering matching gifts. That means that if you give to WGBH your employer might too. Learn more at WGBH dot org slash matching gifts if that ability Haas's warns the world he has seen that it gives him the fun he's wrong in the eye and he deftly skate by luck. Coming up at 3 o'clock on eighty nine point seven. WGBH. We're back my guest is Josh Foer author of Moonwalking with Einstein the art and science of remembering everything I'm Sue O'Connell sitting in for Kelly Crossley today on

WGBH. You know the other way that you open the book which is great is the story of the great Greek person you were talking about earlier who I won't even try to pronounce Monody There you go so I'm on it he's who was sort of I guess the father of the modern day memory building according to legend of course unless the story that Cicero tell this is a great story of of it's not a happy story but about how he was able to remember the moments before a disaster of which he was the only survivor. And when people came to try and claim the bodies of their relatives he was able to reconstruct where everyone was sitting and considering it's in the face of a trauma considering it's something he didn't know was going to have to happen I mean who remembers you know what someone was wearing when they're about to give a speech it's a pretty remarkable story or fable right. Yeah and you know supposedly what he realized was that our special memories are really good and that forms the basis of. A lot of these memory techniques are used in competitions.

We're taking your calls 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0 we're going to go to line 1 and speak with Elma. Elmo welcome to WGBH Kelly Crossley Show. Thank you. I was just wondering in your studies if you had discovered any differences in what people remember of how they remember it between men and women. I'll tell you a funny story which is that one of the events in this competition is memorizing poetry and there are essentially two ways to go about it. The strategies that date back to the original Latin memory treatise is written 2000 years ago and pretty pretty neatly segregate the pool of competitors by gender I don't know why. It's just a coincidence. I don't want to make any overly broad generalizations but I'll tell you what I observed which is that the men tend to take this incredibly

methodical approach to memorizing poetry that involves transforming every word of a poem into a unique image that they see in their mind's eye. They might as well be memorizing a VCR repair manual as a Shakespearean sonnet could. I mean it's in fact that would probably be easier for them. Whereas a number of the women who compete memorize poetry in a way it's a lot more fun which is they really try and understand what the poem means and associate they break it up into beats like an actor an actress and trying to associate in a more visceral sort of way. Yes they associate an emotional content with the poem and that helps them remember it. And I would wager they end up having longer term memories of those poems they stick around for longer I don't know. Now after the 2006 USA Memory Championship do you have any desire to go back in and compete again. I found myself in a very weird position having entered this contest as a journalist as a

journalist not expecting exactly to win. I was now the official representative of the United States of America so the World Memory Championship and I had the hopes and dreams of 300 million people on my shoulders. So I was like All right I'm going to I'm going to really go for it and I had a Team USA T-shirt done up and had my earmuffs painted with the American flag because every competitive nemesis wears earmuffs to keep that sounds. And I got whupped I got totally with the Germans the Brits the Malaysian everyone basically Americans on the competitive competitive memorizing circuit are like Jamaican Bobsled. We're behind the curve that's because our schooling is so holistic and you know we don't we're not. Oh I suppose I could be uneconomic That's a nice explanation I like that I don't know. We're taking your calls 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0. You know one of the challenges that I had growing up was that I was dyslexic and I was undiagnosed and I wasn't diagnosed until I was in my early 20s and you

know math and numbers were the names were nightmare for me but somehow like many dyslexics I was able to you know remember things as a photograph you know when I was a sales person I couldn't remember exactly what the rates were but I could remember the rate sheet and we have Rachel calling in from Providence and Rachel you have a question about dyslexia and memory and I wanted that Josh.. I'm you know like to live and let you live. Well thank you. Thank you Matt thank you and yes my daughter's I think. But we noticed that she dealt with visual games memory games where reading and writing is really difficult. And I'm just wondering after you noted that I think is that A or is the question of actually having the visual and if we can bring that into her learning. So you know what you are the third person I've met in the last week who said something to me about dyslexia and visual and visual memory

and it's not something I ever got into in my research is not something I know anything about. But now I feel like I really want to go look into it because I've heard this now from seven people and I so it's fast. It's I mean I think it's actually you know I don't know. Rachel you're probably more educated about the current stuff than I am but I know that the dyslexia for photographic memory I don't know if it's something that was in place of the fact that you can't make things stick to your brain or that's just the way your brain works but it's a very common thread of Dyslexics have you found that Rachel. I definitely but you know the thing that Josh talked about no shading. Picture it makes sense. Watching her or me I think by that visual I always tell and I think it just you know a lot more in that but we encourage it I was just wondering if you know any thing that's already being done or. Well thanks for calling Rachel John as if he's got a new book that is going to be working on which is the research between dyslexia and I mean it is it is fascinating I don't know in

their stories I know there were a few in your book of real individuals that really inspired you. So many. I'll tell you one of the ones that I found most inspirational and it left a deep impression on me was not somebody with an extraordinary memory but somebody with no memory you know this is an individual who's known in the literature is right and he lives in San Diego he lives in San Diego is unfortunately passed away and I went to spend some time with him in 1902. Freakish virus ate its way through his brain essentially corded like an apple and removed his hippocampal regions which are the part of the brain that essentially turn our perceptions into long term memories and wiped out all of his memories going back to about 1950 and his ability to form new memories. And what was really amazing was he didn't even remember that he had a memory problem. That was something he rediscovered anew in a way almost every moment. And you know he had become he was. He lived in this kind of eternal present between the past he couldn't concept remember and the future that he couldn't contemplate was like he'd fallen completely out of time.

There was there was a movie called I think I meant that was out a few years ago did you. If it was it was based on someone who had no no. Was unable to retain memories and every day there was this day of just facing this. Yeah basically learning the disappointment that you were going to remember this. Right and I mean this guy was in a way blessed to not know that he had this problem he was living this ultimate existential nightmare he didn't know that he had this massive mental problem and he wanted to just shake him and say you know you you've got this problem you're going to forget it. But of course you can't do that. You know one of the things you also write about in your book Moonwalking with Einstein Josh is this. You know I don't know how I can remember exact thing I can't remember to it's kind of funny can't remember how deeply you got into it in the book but children's memories I mean it's pretty much parents and doctors say you know nothing really sticks really until they get into fourth or fifth grade you know and we all have memories about how we think our

childhood was and we all have some snapshots you know I have a snapshot of two images I remember before I could speak. And I clearly knew I couldn't speak. But that's it you know and and you make a you know some comments and some points of view in the book that perhaps if we paid more attention to building memories with kids who I don't know I mean infantile amnesia is a very real phenomenon. Kids most people's first memories date to sometime around when they're like 4 years old 3 or 4 years old and it's kind of weird it's a mystery and I've got a nephew who's 3 years old and I can talk with him about his last birthday party and he remembers it right. Yeah and he's not. And I know for a fact he is not going to remember that you're talking to him about it well that's right that's right. I mean I keep talking writing about him and it's a little bit of a mystery why that's the case. Sigmund Freud thought it was because toddlers had all these hyper sexualized fantasies that they later repressed later in life. I think most people would not agree with that hypothesis anymore seems to be the case that certain brain regions

that are involved in memory just aren't fully formed until until you get to that age of about three or four you know my daughter who's now 10 said to me and I I think she was still in preschool at the time but one day she just looked at me and went Oh I get it. The holidays come every year you know and I was like yeah. We're going to have another Christmas yet another Valentine's Day and I just thought of the brain as you know this very funny. Like it just passes through for the longest time and it builds the sort of emotional reactions within the brain but then it doesn't start stick it until you know how awesome to be a kid and I know if I get that out for the first time and she won't remember it you know I think to your point as soon as she said it to me I remember thinking she's not going to remember that she never knew that the holidays didn't come ever right or you'll have to remind her of that. I will go on. We're going to jump back to the phones here we still have time for some more of your calls 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 0 I'm speaking with journalist and champion

Josh forward here about his book Walking with Einstein we're going to speak with Tina. Hi Tina welcome to WGBH. Oh how very interesting. I wanted to go back to what you were both talking about a little earlier about applications of this sort of thing and teaching in unschooling correct and one of the statements was that you know somehow memorization seems to set a bad rap in education and perhaps the pendulum. Swinging the other way soon. For one thing I think. And in a way it has already swung the other way because standardized test calls for pretty much rote rote memory of lots of facts and taught ways to identify the main idea and things like that. But what was most interesting to me though it seems to be a bit of a contradiction in the idea of that kind of memory as being rote and knowing

lots of stats and lots of knowledge and the very interesting anecdote about and I'm sorry I don't I don't know the post name so that makes it so that when your mother gave you the child of a rabbit or whatever she always state well it's you know it's from your uncle and I presume you knew your uncle or a lot about it. So basically she didn't give you an abstract to remember it right. Connection with a human being. Meaning meaning and life and all those kinds of things and I think we've known. For a long time and in memory research that the more connections. To think I wasn't real or sensual or visual or time the stronger the link. Well I hope you like it. We know for example the sense of smell you know that that any time you have a very strong attachment to a strong smell that will come back that feeling will come back to you on a on a regular basis. I mean I think what you're saying is absolutely right that ultimately what we want to

do is link everything together and create associations we want to understand why things fit together and when you understand why things fit together that's true. True knowledge I'll tell you just a short story. I was in Shanghai not that long ago on a reporting assignment. I went through high school didn't learn the first thing about Chinese history I'm embarrassed to say I'm sure it would be different today. And I was going to the museums I was trying to be a good tourist trying to understand Chinese history and I didn't have the basic facts to fasten other facts to it wasn't just that I didn't know this that I was finding it difficult to learn it because I didn't have those fundamental you know connections waiting there for me. And it was a dispiriting experience I felt like my experience of the place was impoverished because of that. Yeah it's there is a basis that you need to have in order to have things stick to it. You know one of the words that you use throughout the book and we've talked about the stickiness which I've always found to be in web development a new word you know Web websites are

sticky and you can tell they're sticky if people visit them repeatedly and then go through a number of pages. And at the same time you know is there a concern that access to Google and access to your Palm Pilot if you still have those are your BlackBerrys. Is that enhancing our ability to to memorize things is the description of our minds as being sticky. You know is how is technology in your mind related to our ability to memorize things and remember things. You know we've kind of outsourced the act of remembering too to these technologies but it's a very old story and you're in your I can if you're reading between the lines of what you're saying that there's something that sounds a little shady about this that my new you know I'm always fascinated about the new new technology is always you know every every day always changing. And everybody's had new technology and in the time of the Greeks and the Romans they had the tablets tablets were like Holy moley were writing stuff down they were kind of texting walking around. I mean tabula you don't and you don't even need an iPod when you say tablet. Right. But

Socrates was twenty five hundred years ago was up in arms about this new invention called writing. Right and he said I'm going to World it was going to ruin everybody's memories because people would start putting their memories down on paper on pirates and they would come to depend on things that were written down rather than things held in their memories. And they would become like empty vessels the culture would erode. And it was going to be the end of the world of course. You know thankfully somebody wrote that down. There was we wouldn't know about it today but it is I mean it sort of is the the mind in compared to whatever the new technology is of today you know it's all sort of works together and to think that one takes away from the other. You know I've always just felt when people would complain about reading on reading declining and online news going up what people are reading online some people. Some people are looking at pornography but I have to read the website address to get there I'm right now that's true that's true.

Yeah I know I mean look it's a long story it's and it's a story I tell in the book from the invention of writing to Google. It's changed how we think I thought about memory remember. Well it's been fascinating we haven't been able to get to everyone who called in I would definitely do have a website that I do Joshua for dot com. Also I just want to put in a plug I'm speaking to Brookline Booksmith and it is going to be a really special guest which is the new U.S. Memory Champion Nelson Dellis who just won on Saturday tore up all the records. He's an incredible guy he's actually about to climb Mount Everest. He's going to be there. So it's going to be fun and weird and awesome that's great so it's tonight at Brookline Booksmith over in Coolidge Corner in Brookline. And you can surf on over their website they've got a great list of folks coming it's great that you're going to be there by yourself a copy of a movie walking with Einstein and you'll feel smarter just by buying it. Sure. There you go. Thanks so much just we've been talking with writer Josh for his new book of course. You can catch him tonight as he says tonight at the Brookline Booksmith. It starts at 7 o'clock. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you. You listen you can you can keep

up to date on everything that's going on at the Kelly Crossley Show at WGBH dot org slash Kelly Crossley. You can follow us on Twitter or you can become a fan of the Kelly Crossley Show on Facebook. I'm so well Khloe I've been sitting in for Kelly Crossley I'll be back tomorrow. This is the Cali Crossley Show a production of WGBH radio.