WGBH Radio; The Callie Crossley Show

I'm Kelly Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show. Last week the Massachusetts legislature unanimously passed a new anti-bullying bill which prohibits bullying in schools and outlaws the bad behavior online. But will this legislation work. It could if the latest research on bullying provides a true breakthrough. Researchers are looking at the dynamics of bullying in a new way. It turns out that the key to short circuiting this brand of unrelenting abuse. May not lie with the bullies or the bullied but with the bystanders. We'll take a look at what the latest research could offer. From there it's on to the latest housing crisis new lead paint legislation that could cost contractors and homeowners alike multiple thousands. We top it all off with a granite state native who's gained national recognition by way of a music video tribute to his beloved hometown. Up next from new legislation to New Hampshire. First the news. From NPR News in Washington one corps of a Coleman emergency crews are trying to block floating oil

from washing up onto the beaches of four states and into sensitive marshlands in the Gulf of Mexico. It's from a broken oil pipe that's gushing deep underneath the water's surface. The pipeline is from a collapsed oil drilling platform leased by energy company BP. BP is chief executive Tony Hayward is overseeing the rescue operation in the Gulf. He told NPR today BP will pay for the cleanup. Absolutely be paying for the cleanup operation. There is no doubt about that that our responsibility and we accept it fully. The oil well has not been sealed. Current estimates say it could take weeks before the oil gushes cut off at least 21 people are dead following severe storms this weekend in mid southern states. Tornadoes in Arkansas flooding in Tennessee killed several people. The flooding is getting worse in Nashville where the Cumberland River has surged above flood stage. Tom Womack with Tennessee Emergency Management says it could take a while to get past the flood dangers.

It's not like a tornado or something like that flooding is certainly a different characteristic and has the potential to be longer response period. Residents of Nashville are being advised to use water only for drinking and cooking. One of the city's two water treatment plants is flooded. Attorney General Eric Holder says whoever parked a car bomb in New York City over the weekend intended to terrorize people. Speaking to reporters today Holder says it is too early to tell whether the bomber was a domestic or foreign attacker. Chicago based United Airlines is merging with Continental under the proposed agreement as Chicago Public Radio's Tony Arnold reports. They would combine to form the world's largest airline in the terms of number of passengers flown the roughly 3 billion dollar deal still needs approval from stockholders. The deal's been a long time coming. United and Continental have been talking merger for years. Glenn Tilton is the president of United under the merger. He'd serve as chairman of the board of the new airline. Together we create the world's most comprehensive network our networks quite

literally. Three joggers with little overlap. The new airline which will be called United would serve three hundred seventy places around the world. It's expected to have an annual revenue of twenty nine billion dollars. Meantime the union for the airlines flight attendants say its support of the merger hinges on any changes to work rules which may come down. For NPR News I'm Tony Arnold in Chicago. Greek workers will strike tomorrow to protest cuts in government spending. Greek officials agreed to impose significant cuts in wages pensions and other spending to win loans from the European Union and the International Monetary Fund. Otherwise Greece faces bankruptcy. On Wall Street the Dow Jones Industrials are up 140 points at eleven thousand one hundred forty eight. The Nasdaq is up 37 at twenty four ninety nine. This is NPR. Massachusetts officials have repaired a pipe that supplies water to two million people in Boston and surrounding communities. Everyone's been told to boil their water for a minute for safety. Ever since the 10 foot main

ruptured on Saturday although the pipe is now fixed it's not yet safe to drink the tap water. Massachusetts officials say they first want to test the waters quality. A 22 year old Pakistani man has been found guilty in India for attacking the city of Mumbai. More than 170 people were killed during the three day assault including six Americans. NPR's Philip Reeves reports on the verdict in the assault on India's financial capital. Seventeen months after the assault on Mumbai a court confirmed what Indians felt they already knew that Mohammed was one of the attackers because sabs the gunman whose photograph was published worldwide. One picture showed him fresh faced and friendly dressed brandishing a machine gun as he strode through a major railway terminus where dozens were mowed down. Reports say today because sad looks of Jude as the judge declared his guilt on more than 80 counts including murder and waging war in India. Because I was the only survivor of 10 militants who sailed in from Pakistan and went on a

three day rampage that stunned the world and froze peacemaking efforts between India and Pakistan. The court acquitted two Indians accused of helping plan that assault. Later this week it's expected to sentence Kasab he faces a possible death penalty. Philip Reeves NPR News New Delhi. North Korean leader Kim Jong il appears to be traveling in China a luxury train arrived in the northern Chinese city today. If confirmed it's his first trip abroad since reports surfaced in 2009. Kim might have had a stroke. I'm CORBA Coleman NPR News. Support for NPR comes from Kaufman. The foundation of entrepreneurship supporting the entrepreneurs movement. Learn more and build a stronger America. Dot com. Good afternoon I'm Kelly Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show last week the Massachusetts legislature unanimously passed a new anti-bullying bill which prohibits bullying in schools and outlaws the bad behavior online. But the real

key to reducing bullying could lie in fully understanding its pathology. Joining me to talk about a new wave of anti bullying curriculum is Neil Swayze. He's a staff writer for The Boston Globe magazine and he wrote yesterday's cover story The secret to stopping a bully. Welcome. Great to be here. We're going to be joined shortly by media Chesney Lynn. She is a professor of women's studies at the University of Hawaii and Professor Chesney Lynn will be joining us in just a few minutes. But Neal let's start with what your story was all about. Give us the gist of it because it's actually was kind of surprising to me to say thanks. I had the same reaction when I went into it basically. Obviously we're dealing with bullying now we're trying to find a solution for it. And as you mentioned the legislation now is mandating schools across the state to have intervention programs into education programs. So I went looking for the most successful ones and what no one talks about. And what shocked me was. No

one has been able to demonstrate a program that has been scientifically shown to reduce actually bullying behavior. There are some that increase students feelings of social competence and awareness of the issue. But actually when you drill down to did it change your bullying behavior again across the board in a program that is scientifically tested. The data is just not there. Now this is something that I've been talking a little bit over the time of the show as being on with people who are expert in the field and they kind of essential he said that one of the things that they said was that you need to call it what it is and this sort of lump it under bullying in some ways diminishes the impact which I thought actually was odd too but apparently they say if you know if you call it a certain kind of assault if you call it you know whatever else it is you know sexual assault or whatever it has a little bit more power. I don't know if you found some of that from from your experts too. Yeah I mean I think there is the there are a lot does get lumped in especially when you get these

buzzwords that are out there now and of course there are a lot of people out there earnestly trying to figure out a solution. And then there are some people out there who are just trying to make a name for themselves and are promoting sort of programs that are not really tethered to actual data on them and so when when you get that element in there I think people are trying to kind of hoover up as much of the problem. As possible if you look at it there is a huge difference between actual physical bullying and psychological bullying. And of course with Phoebe Prince it's the latter we're talking to and that's the that's the toughest one that we're dealing with I think as a society we've gotten better at being vigilant about the first part the physical bullying you don't see that as much in the schools you don't see the acceptance of that as kids will be kids anymore. It's the other one that in many ways can be more destructive. Now is that because a lot of this nonphysical bullying is online. You know what we have colloquially dubbed cyber bully and as we know

science is often a little bit behind you know where we are at the moment. And so the whole Internet thing the whole Facebook thing the whole social media thing in the way at least kids interact with each other is way far ahead of a lot of the adults who might be studying this phenomenon. I think that's exactly right and I think when you actually look at the data a lot of the research is based on the pre Internet Internet era or at least the pre social networking era and as you know when you deal with young people there is exactly what you said they're way ahead of where we are on that. I think the issue of cyber bullying is an open topic about how much how different that is and how much that driving the problem. What I think is not an open debate is that. Cyber bullying or the use of social networking can ratchet up the problem quickly and so that you can have something in the story. I talk about this idea even when we were kids you know sixth or seventh grade girl we go to school just in utter embarrassment and determined that everyone in school would instantly know something embarrassing about her and would want to go to

school. And of course that was that was adolescent paranoia at work today. Her paranoia is justified. Everyone does know this thing that happened and they quickly move on to other issues but. But that does change the dynamic I don't think it's the driver of it but I think it is a huge accelerant. OK we now have a meta Chesney Linda on the line. She's a professor of women's studies at the University of Hawaii. Professor Chaz made land Welcome back. Hello. OK maybe we have some technical problems and we'll try to bring her back in as soon as we get this line straightened out. But in the meantime let's continue. You and I one of the aspects of your piece that again is continues to be surprising was the focus on the bystanders that where there is some slight possibility and I let's just repeat that you've said that you're looking across the board a lot of these intervention programs have proven not to be successful. I think people need to hear that because we've just passed legislation that

really rests on some kind of premise that they will be successful right. And yet one of the aspects that seems not to have been looked at very closely is are the bystanders who are standing around watching the bully or in the case of cyber bullying I guess at home encouraging and being a part of that as bystanders. Tell us what you found in your piece. Well bystanders the whole issue is a hot topic around there and I think it's embedded in a lot of promise because the math does work if you look at the if you focus just on the bully versus the victim it's a one to one situation. Versus the bystanders. Are you know many people you know could be five kids around you in the corridor could be twenty five in the class. If you can make some kind of inroads with those just two as I tried to describe it as kind of choking off the oxygen supply that kind of fuels the bully if you can do that there's some promise on there. I think what I tried to point out in the piece was maybe what I believe now having marinate in this

is a promising tighter focus on that and that is actually looking at the sidekicks the people immediately around the bully because the problem with the bystander approach by itself is that most kids are not going to intervene. They're just not going to and that's the interesting data that I found on that and studies they've actually looked at that. You have a really low willingness to get involved for other kids they just know that there are consequences for doing that. And when the bystander approach just preaches just you know do the right thing and stand up get it. There was one that the State Medical Society put out just saying telling kids to say cool it you know that's like you know that actually is not you know not really. Yeah exactly yeah. But it's the terminology exactly I mean who under the age of 34 says cool it. But but if you look at the people right around if you can kind of focus because what I did find is that the tighter the focus. And the more closely the people in the school are connected and really aware of the social landscape in the school the better results you have or at least a more promising results are there.

OK Professor meta chosen to lend your back on the line with this. I'm here. OK great. I'm not certain how much of our conversation you've heard but I've been talking about that often people don't make a differentiation between the physical bullying and what we now colloquially call cyber bullies I want to give you a chance to respond to that. Well first I want to commend Neil for paying attention to the research so much of what is published is just as he points out a kind of a hype or somebody pushing a particular program. And especially as your state is now committing to putting a lot of resources into that it's important that you drill down on the science and that you figure out what works and what doesn't work and and avoid the hucksterism that is really kind of ginning up around this problem. But getting past that. If we look at the research it's pretty bleak in that analysis that was done by Maryland as a. It's basically say that most of the stuff doesn't work and certainly doesn't work in the kind of precise way that we need to to

deploy you know prevention programs if you're if you're really going to reduce to behavior. And is there would it make a difference if if the intervention programs made a distinction between physical and cyber bullying. I really think that you have hit the nail on the head. We need to call these things what they really are and we need to talk about them in very complete and distinct ways. You've got physical violence you've got you know yelling racial epithets. You've got sexual harassment. You have stalking. If we begin to kind of pull those things apart and as Neil mentioned also begin to look at the social context within which the behaviors occur I think you're going to be a little bit closer to being able to prevent the behavior and a focus on as he used that phrase the sidekick I think is a good place to begin. But again the bully is very powerful and we have to understand that and not be naive about saying oh yeah we'll just go you know to the kids just go run in there and and intervene because you know there's there's a lot of

social power. And the other thing I want to mention which was the part of his analysis that was very important is to bring the boy bully back into the picture we've been talking endlessly about girls but a real big part of the problem has to do with boys and masculinity norms and picking on basically boys who flaunt the masculinity test and who might be constructed as either wimps or worse as is or perceived as such. Exactly. So talking about what the con You know what's the content of the bullying is I think also very important. I want to look at this bystander question again because as many people have said there are no innocent bystanders. So what is being suggested Neal heard from people is that if people walked away from the scene that that would diminish the power of the bully. Where are you coming from in that do you believe. Well I think he he was saying the research seem to really look at one as a gender difference. Girls Are there seems to be some indication that girls might be a little more inclined to

help. Which if you think about it for a second. Doesn't surprise us but it is. And it's good news about girls but the boys I think we do have to focus on the boys and we have to focus on. Well there's the walking away but if there's physical violence occurring that could be an especially if it's a sexual assault I think some of us were horrified at the sexual of the act that happened where kids basically watched a girl getting getting raped. I have just told people if it's physical assault that are going on you need to empower yourself and you don't need to intervene don't put yourself in physical harm if you're a young boy. But you can call a teacher. You could you know go get a teacher call the police if you're if you're in a more public environment the cyber bullying he's very right about that. We we really need to do the research. I don't think anyone wants to go out now and say it's not a problem. We just need to get some good research and I think some good research is happening around the country so we have to find out what to do about that. But the but the the psychic the person is actually maybe somewhat involved in behavior. Those are the people you want to try and kind of pull away from

that hyper violent kid and talk to them and say you know what are you doing and we've done this with gang behavior so we know that it works you want to you want to decrease the cohesion of a negative or toxic group. You know I'm wondering now that we have this law which says you know you better these administrators who did not in the Phoebe Prince case say anything better say something now. How does that work if we are if we focus on the bystanders and they in fact walk away and then call or connect with it with an administrator that would seem to me to be the best possible result. Yeah I think I mean if there's some good that comes out of this horrible case it is that kind of blind eye approach I mean that just won't work anymore I mean one of the most chilling relit revelations from the Phoebe Prince case was that you know someone in that library that day had witnessed bullying a staff member and did nothing about it.

And this had been accelerating in her life to an unmanageable point in that you know within that day a staff member saw so I think you see that now that that kind of just blind eye won't work anymore and that there would be accountability now for administrators. But getting there to that point I mean there are not resources attached to this necessarily. I guess I am also fearful that you know that the point I was mentioned earlier about the hucksterism that you know someone comes in with with a great plan and you have assembly you have a program in there everyone feels good to you Pat yourselves on the back that you're doing something about it but that are you really I mean this is hard work. Right. But I'd like to. The guy in your piece who is going around and the way that he approached it in trying to talk to the kids that seemed to me not to be hucksterism but trying to get to helping kids understand what bullying actually is. That's exactly right Knight. I actually was very impressed with that on the ground floor to actually see someone first who connects with the kids. Second does not minimize the social cost to getting involved intervening in talks honestly with them and an eye

opening way so that they can see kids in the consequences for this. How much is that practiced in Massachusetts. Well I think that's just starting now. This is a pilot program it's only in Charleston right now. And the other part is that it's just a starting point even there and that's the schools that are just really at that point opening the eyes of the kids in a new way. The next piece is the tougher piece and that's where I think you have to be more targeted about who you're going after in terms of occasion. Professor Chazan a limb do you think the Phoebe Prince case and the resulting legislation here even though lots of folks don't think that's going to be effective will at least raise the level of awareness so that what happened to Phoebe Prince of somebody witness something in the library the day of it just won't go and report it. Well absolutely we you know like any other kind of social problem whether it's gangs or youth drug use or anything. We we who are the responsible adults in the situation are responsible for what's called guardianship and taking

responsibility for things you see. And you know as adults especially we have a lot more social power so we think we can get into a situation like that. But the big worry I have here is that we'll have those biggest families as Neal mentioned. Well for a lot of money at this problem and a lot of it could be wasted and especially in this climate. I hate to see that. So let's let's focus on some. It was reported on the science. What why a number of different approaches to do the research. Things like babbling that we now don't know much about we'll know a lot more about 10 years down the road. OK we'll leave it there for now we've been talking about the latest in anti-bullying curriculum with Lynn Lynn is a professor of women's studies at the University of what of Hawaii. He is a staff writer for The Boston Globe magazine you can read his piece The secret to stopping a bully at Boston dot com slash magazine. Thank you both for joining us. My other Next it's a look at new lead paint legislation. Stay with us we'll be back after this break. Support for WGBH comes from you and from new Center for Arts and Culture.

Treat your mother to an evening with StoryCorps founder Dave Isay who pays tribute to the most influential fascinating and indomitable figure in all of our lives. Mom May 6th new Center Boston dot org. And from Wells Fargo Advisors of Wellesley. Helping clients with investment retirement educational and estate planning strategies. Wells Fargo Advisors of Wellesley LLC member SIPC. Together will go far. Scott Simon here inviting you to join me and Diane Rheem on a two week Mediterranean journey will depart for Greece on July 26 and together we'll visit ancient wonders from Athens to Capri and take some time to explore Sicily one of the great crossroads of civilization. Diane and I are looking forward to this voyage of discovery into lively discussions with public radio listeners.

So please join us. I'm hoping to find the girlie only found dates and registration online at WGBH dot org slash learning tours. You're listening to eighty nine point seven WGBH Boston is an NPR station for news context and analysis with MORNING EDITION. The takeaway and the Diane Rehm Show explore ideas with us all day long here on the new eighty nine point seven. WGBH. The annual WGBH spring auction is underway with new items appearing in posing every day and every bid supports the programs that you depend on. Visit option WGBH dot org. Good afternoon I'm Kelly Crossley bill 14 years in the making is now law and enforced by the Environmental Protection Agency. The new legislation requires

contractors to take extra precautions in dealing with lead paint dust and debris and houses built before 1978. And in New England that adds up to the majority of houses. Contractors who do not get certification could face fines costing close to $40000 a day. And joining us to talk about what this new legislation means for contractors and homeowners is Tom Silva. Tom Silver is a general contractor notable for his long running contribution to the PBS show this old house. He's also the co-owner co-owner of silver brothers construction based in Lexington Massachusetts. We're also joined by Ron pike. He's the president of Alpine environmental Welcome to you both. Welcome. Thank you. Now before you all say a word I just want to play a little clip. This happened a couple of weeks ago one of our contributors Arnie Arneson brought this legislation to our attention and I hadn't heard a thing about it. OK. If you're in the plumbing business if you're in the painting business if you're a contractor if you have a house built before 1978 this is going to impact your life. People are so

surprised and they didn't realize the breath and the depth what it will cost people and what does it mean for most families and in New England you name me a house that wasn't built before 1978. OK. Tom Silva Yeah how come we don't know about this second we didn't know this is quite shocking. Well it's been out there for a while the warning has been coming that you've got to get certified you've got to protect yourself the workers the homeowners especially people with the kids that are younger than six years old in their house. Lead can be a problem. And if you live and live in New England just as you said it's probably a good chance that you live an old enough house that's going to have lead in it. Well Ron we know that you know in New England it's bad here because we got all those old houses but you know the rest of us out here didn't know that all this legislation was changing in a significant way even though it's been 14 years in the making. Right and it's been really being aggressively ramped up by the EPA for the last couple of years. And this will be doing a public outreach. It's a little bit slow in coming but they have been very yeah.

Yeah even in the industry there's still a lot of contractors forget about homeowners but a lot of contractors still are very unaware of the you know the regulation and even fewer who really understand the details of the regulations so it's a long way from being really solidified. OK now I know you just did the certification run right I did. Before we get to that I want to go to Tom and ask what are some of the details that we should know about. Well in the certification process you know I mean you know just in terms of what it means now when you want to know what it means is it's going to cost everybody more money. It's going to cost now much more. Well it depends on the job. I mean let's say for example you're going to put new placement windows in your house instead of coming in and ripping out that window. You've got to prep the site first to take that window out. You've got to clean the area after which when you done when I say clean the area you've got to vacuum with a special vacuum you have to use a HEPA. You've got to watch the area. You've got to wash it and rinse it and then you gotta wash it again to make sure that it's it's clean if it's not clean and you've got to do it again. It's really the time the extra material the

special equipment it's going to be costly to get involved with it. And then staying on top of it it's going to cost you some money. Well I figure the silver brothers are probably on top of this but for the average contractor you know what how do you turn this around. Well it's going to be tough. I'll give you an example I took the certification course a few weeks ago. And in the class there was a couple of guys that said to me they have friends that were just in the class before us. And one guy said after they had taken the beginning part of it they turned around and said I have six old homes I'm ready to work on does anybody want to work on all of this because they're afraid they're afraid of it. You know Ron I think was going to happen too is that once there's a lot of fear the unknown right now it's it is so well-founded fear of the unknown but once it becomes a little bit more part of our contracting background and everybody is kind of used to the give and take in the process kind of like especially as 20 years ago 30 years ago. It is rather routine doesn't mean it's inexpensive but is routine. So I think we're going to find that it's it's not

as scary when it really comes down to it the real bottom line is it's all about controlling containing and then cleaning the dust when you're doing a renovation is a messy process. And a lot of contractors a lot of good contractors are still going to keep a very clean work site with or without this law. That's right. There were people doing it before so you know you weren't vacuuming before you know well it's not that you weren't vacuuming I mean let's say for example someone wants to replace the windows or you'd go into the room you wouldn't you wouldn't basically cover it up the way you have to cover it up. Anything that's in the room has to be protected with Pauley the floor has to be six feet away from the wall and on each side. You can't let the lead dust fall on the ground if it does outside then you've got to make sure that you clean it up. You weren't as scaffold. Because of the I know you didn't know you didn't know you had to be that gavel. You know you're aware of lead paint and you're aware of the problem of lead paint but you're not thinking about the dust that you can't see lead paint you have to use a HEPA VAX that will filter out Micron three three Michael's three history right. I mean that you can even see it. That's the dust

that you have to be Catholic. Kelly this regulation is also a bit of a response to the fact that 20 to 40 percent of children with elevated blood levels nationwide have had renovation projects in the house within the last 12 months so it's there's not that much of the old fantasy of the old fallacy as you say about children there munching on wood like a bunch of little baby beavers running around that's 20 years in this business we just haven't seen that but maybe a dozen times we've dealt with hundreds of lead poisoning like elevated children the primary culprit is the dust right. And I think we should you know make it clear. And by the way I am for listeners I'm talking with Tom Silva of silver brothers construction and this old house and with Ron Pike he's with Alpine environmental that. This is particularly damaging for kids under 6. I mean we're talking brain damage and you can't always look at the child and assess that the damage is happening. Recht Exactly and this is why I just came back from from a conference the National Conference on this where there's a huge amount of research being done even now to try to

lower the levels because they're out there find that there are neurological problems coming at levels way below the actual level of 10 micrograms per deciliter in the blood they're finding it at 5. And the poisoning level is 25. So if your child makes it to that level that's that's that's pretty significant. Yeah it's pretty bad. I was trying in my own uninformed way to explain this to a friend of mine last night who's not in the contracting business and he asked a question he said OK well what if you're just a homeowner and you just don't feel like doing that who catches you. Well basically if you're a homeowner doing the job yourself you run the risk of getting lead poisoning but you don't have to do anything I mean if you're not being paid to do the job there you're exempted a horrible homeowner in your own house. You're exempt if it's a homeowner in a two family in Oman or Arlington or whatever they're collecting rent they're far therefore being legally compensated so therefore they fall into the IRA file then yeah if you live in a single family home but if you own a multiple then and then you have to follow the rules.

OK well Tom you just tell me that the guy turned around and the certification classes as he wants these you know 6 000 houses so what's going to what is he going to do to the contract. Well I think it's going to be a while as Ron said earlier it's going to be a while before everybody really gets adjusted to figuring out what the process is a fair factor is like if I go in there I'm going to get fined thirty seven thousand dollars for one day. If they come back the next day and I haven't correct it I'm going to get fined again another 37 who checks that by the way. Well the EPA check they're relying on a lot of For Better or For Worse a lot of time dropping if a contractor is being compliant he looks across the street and sees comp contractor be you know grinding dust right out the window we're doing demolition in an uncontrolled fashion. There are actually come right out EPA said they're really going to be relying on street drops of Dimes. So we're talking about competitors outing other. Pretty much yeah pretty much doesn't exactly help the overall atmosphere in the contracting business which is not really all that robust right now anyway. So yeah now it's just another it's another fly in the late night and contract

it is well-intentioned and it really is a it's a it's a true problem that really needs to be addressed and I think the I mean personally I'll say off the record I think the fine is way out of line that would put any contract in not just the little ones out of business it's not as nice. Then you back on to that the legal fees of trying to protect yourself. So it is scary it really is kind of a bogeyman right now and it needs to we all need to get our arms around it. Massachusetts is going to start to Department of Public Department of Labor will eventually be handling this regulation for EPA. They only have $5000 a day fines so when that actually makes its way through the system the fines are still scary about a lot less scary than a thirty seventh heaven for that contractor that has wanted to Guy contract and cell phone it may be a help but you hit him with a $5000 fine. He's in big trouble. You know I mean it's it's scary but it's the learning process that you really have to get through that you got to get over that hump to say it's not that bad. Doing this extra work for it but it's for a good benefit too.

OK that's Tom Silva talking speaking of the learning process. What is actually certification what's involved in that it's like an all day test or it's an all day pass basically there's a book right here that you go through the book Class thanks. That's OK. Let's say 54 remote renovation repair and painting. Right and it's not a pamphlet people it's not. Yeah and they go through this book during the class and they show you they tell you all the all about lead in the process and they tell you how to protect the room what your what your responsibilities as a contractor are and how to dispose of. The debris once you've protected the road there's certain ways you have to roll the plastic up you can't roll it up and then squish it all down and all the lead dust will blow out. Well you've got to wet it down before you roll it up you've got to vacuum it and roll up the wood. Walk into a dumpster. You've got it. Your

feet are very important because your feet will take on the lead when you leave the house. If there's carpeting the carpeting has to really be protected because the carpet fibers hold the lead dust. You may vacuum it but it's very hard to get out. Do you wear those little booties like you would if you know you know do you also have what is called a tack pad that you put outside the protected room you have to put a double plastic barrier up on the doorway to walk through and another like a damper door so that the air can't blow out the bad air can't blow it. You know they teach you about you can't have any windows open within 20 feet like your neighbors you do in a condominium or you live in in Boston and you have Windows being replaced you have to make sure that your neighbors windows are close within 20 feet. There's a real real change in how it's a huge change and it is going to make a difference specially in the beginning because it's going to be a big learning curve. OK. Now Ron we've been talking about the finding as as a part of the money but let's talk about what

it adds to the bottom line for the customer of the consumer. Well the EPA went out initially two years ago with the intention of making this law in effect without any more than $100 to your average remodeling job you know that was a very worthy goal but a very unattainable one. You can't buy much you can't buy a box of Tyvek suits without $100. So. Let's just do it let's just do it quickly here. It was the HEPA vacuum. You know 500 bucks. OK then you got ma last Dec you did you just back row up last night's then. Yeah you know there are 75 or a hundred for when you get tape law to take that tape and painters tape a lot of them. What's that going to be spent and yeah 50 bucks. Yeah pretty much if you're looking at your average window job your typical house just just talking a window job 20 windows typically you're going to be talking about setting up a bunch of cocoons. We call it because little mini containment surround each window and you're talking a couple hundred dollars worth of disposables basically poly duct tape respirators suits things like that. And the labor the labor is going to

add another 20 to 30 man hours or labor hours to the project and that obviously end up on a window job 20 window job just to run through the numbers maybe eight or ten thousand dollars for the whole job. The LED component of it will add another fifteen hundred between one in 2000 which used you know 10 15 percent of the prize that we're finding is typically. Yeah but it is legit. Yeah I could be as I said once I'm in your hands on the furniture that's interim what has to be moved you know. The amount of lead that has to come out can you contain it when you take the window out easy enough. I mean you got to get it to trim. If a plumber goes in a bathroom he's going to drill some holes or remove a cabinet and has been lead painted. He's got to prep that room and I gotta tell you Tom you know you're going to have this period where OK so some people are sort of they're not like you on this old house where they know what they're doing. And then there's a period of just trying to get adjusted so everybody's got to be good at this. You know so even if how do I know that you're good at it and even though you show me your I assume you're

sort of your certificate this is your That's one thing that the class teaches and I think they really spend a lot of time on basically telling you you have to be clean. There's actually a pamphlet that they give you. Oh I don't have it with me. It has a window in it and that window basically this is the this is the pamphlet that you have to give each home oh I see that there are pictures here renovate right. OK all right and the homeowner has to sign a paper to say that you have they have received this. OK so it's like going to the doctor and getting you know you're signing off on being informed right. Right. OK. Now when you're done with that with the cleaning and the rinsing then you have to take a what he calls a Swiffer and you have to wipe the room no more than 40 square feet per pad and you have to make sure that the pad collar matches is better than this discolor right here. All right to stay clean is what it looks like exactly. This is a videographer so you're out there. My friend if it doesn't pass with your eyes made you have to clean the room and consumer Yeah that's

right. OK as a contract right OK this is the EPA trying to save costs again because doing a lead just wipes and a lot of people are going to opt to do it have to have actually an inspector come in right. If you're spending ten twenty or maybe one hundred thousand dollars in a renovation is not a bad idea to have an inspector come in third party he would actually do a laboratory wipe samples that would cost three or four hundred dollars get ready to say so yeah it's not I mean a big job. The three or four hundred bucks out of me that's money well spent. OK absolutely Whilce and it's a lot better than looking at a you know a white little plastic card and trying to convert not relying on the Swiffer. Yeah but you know what you want to get when I say this looks pretty darn clean but I feel a lot of wiped out in the last 20 years with clean looking floors and it's not always the lead. You get all the dirt up but there's still lead in the grain of the floor to the ground wood floors and the vinyl flooring there's a lot of little pits and places for the lead to heights you could have a what appears to be a clean looking Swiffer pad and still failing on the floor. That's why when you're cleaning you know before you. Work what I would do is go and

vacuum the space first. Cover it with plastic tape the plastic to the wall get the debris down. Clean up the debris. You have to dampen the plastic first so that you don't create dust you have to vacuum that with a HEPA vac. Then you take that out. Then you have to vacuum the floor again. Wash the floor rinse the floor you can't rinse the water use the same walk in the same water with the rinse water that you use the soapy water and then you've got to clean it with the Swiffer you know what else is going to add to not only the money but also the time you know for old houses this is going to be a lot because you can only do so a certain number of feet at a time. Look at that picture. It'll have a good day to it every 4 or 5 day window a little and a good day. Guys that got Windows install a replacement they got a system down the way they can go in and want you guys who want to rip the windows out and two guys go right behind him and Stahl. They can have probably a whole house done in a day to day and I know what it is. Yeah not any more. How many contractors are going to go out of business as a result of this do you think I don't think they're going to go out of business they're not going to

take the jobs with old houses. But hello we're in New England if I'm going to share it's going to definitely shift the playing field quite a bit and those who want to concentrate on the old homes they're going to be able to pick up all this isn't rocket science is a tedious but it's they'll be able to pick it up and run with it because they're going to have to. Yeah it's scary but it's doable. Well what do you all think about this. It's not a bad thing. OK it's not I think it's good for it's a good lesson I mean you want to protect our kids yeah from AM old if I get led to you Are they going to say I forget half what I'm saying. OK I think it's going pretty well I think it's a good thing. OK you know we're we're here with Alpine environmental run you think so I think it's a horrible life that we like to have poisoned children or you know I mean certainly we're part of our that's been our purpose for the last 20 years is trying to make it home safe. And this is going to spread it out because it's been a big has been a big loophole for a long time where the speaking to the 20 to 40 percent of children have elevated levels of all

of them. That's that's 20 to 40 percent of all the children with elevated levels I should say that properly. Have had renovations so there's obviously a little bit of a smoking gun here. This is a good response to it. I will definitely say it's not the most perfect regulation and it is certainly not the most perfect execution of regulation but it's a start. It's a start. Yeah and you know we've been talking private homes but I'm thinking you know schools in other I mean now what happens there because regulations are related so you don't have it is higher. It's not for not for schools mostly for daycare so you know the child the CO child occupied facilities and that's a facility that has a child under six years old that they care centers nationally but that. So the regulations are more strict for those are you know as you say it's like a ok but rather still be you know I would imagine yeah because you're definitely you know kids are going to be in there. Well here's my prediction. I predict that those organizations like Angie's List are going to go through the roof because if I'm the consumer I want to know the guys that have or the women who have been doing this and who know what they're doing.

And therefore I see a little bit more money because if I were you silver brothers I'd charge more because I know what I'm doing. You know you got to. I'm going to have to charge a little local question right. OK well we've been talking about this interesting new and latest EPA rule on lead paint with Tom Silva and Ron pike. Tom Silva is a contractor notable for his long running contribution to the PBS show this old house. He is also the co-owner of silver brothers construction based in Lexington. Ron Pike is the president of Alpine environmental. And there you can watch every week this old house on Saturday at 5:00 p.m. WGBH channel to thank you both for joining us. Thank you. Thank you. Coming up it's our regular Monday feature local made good. We'll be back after this break stay with us. Support for WGBH comes from you and from new Center for Arts and Culture.

Treat your mother to an evening with StoryCorps founder Dave Isay who pays tribute to the most influential fascinating and indomitable figure in all of our lives. Mom May 6th new Center Boston dot org. And from Samut and company Certified Public Accountants whether growing your business or securing your financial future. Sam it is committed to strategic solutions for success today and into the future. Samad and company dot com. This is eighty nine point seven. WGBH Boston NPR station for depth and understanding for ideas and discussion with FRESH AIR. THE WORLD AND ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. Explore new voices with us all day long here on the new eighty nine point seven.

WGBH. Spring is here and so is the WGBH annual auction. They don Red Sox tickets restaurant gift certificates incredible getaway packages new items appearing and closing every day and every bit helps support the WGBH programs that you depend on. Visit auction dot WGBH dot org. You're listening to eighty nine point seven. WGBH Boston NPR station the program's heard nowhere else like the take away and the world. It's another choice for information. We are WGBH. I'm callin Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show. It's time for our regular Monday feature local made good where we celebrate people whose creativity and

individuality bring honor to New England. Today I'm joined by Christian wise Carver. He has received national recognition for his music video. Granite State of mine Christian wise cover welcome. Thanks for having merrily appreciate it. Now for those of you who don't know what Christian did is a tribute to New Hampshire. And if you're unfamiliar with Jay-Z we have to let you hear a little bit of it so you understand that granite state of mind is a parody of Jay-Z's hit Empire State of Mind which has to do with New York City so here is the hit by artist Jay-Z and Alicia Keys. You will meet them demonstrate right never doubt. That you didn't make it. Oh my the economy grows we will be back to that McDonald's to get to my specified. By 66 Street gets me in the kitchen much the same as the conflicts.

In my native land almost immediately. OK so listeners Christian and I are sitting here bopping our heads to the music because we like Empire State Of Mind. But guess what. I like granite state of mind. Even better I think. So here you go now here is granite state of mind by Christian wise Carver. You. Weigh. Them down again just the next Adams. And all but I. Do expect that flow from the new Salinger as a could be a venue where the trees get goofy in metal but no. Shop in Salem. To Rockingham. I get that I'm going to give him a bit late. To get me up to wordsmith. This a good school street can be a big Gillies up the rat was to simulate. The

crank up. Against. The scenic highway that I love to drive it all gets knocked down again. Good. To see. My kids get to sever some of the members of the. City with some. Guy. It's a way to say. I. Bet you every year it's good to know what. Guys. Like you. Also would like. Just. Tell. Them God knows that it may. Be. That. Way but the bank CEO made the call. OK Christian I got to tell you I love that saga. And it sticks with you which is what you want if you're a songwriter right.

Yeah yeah the more I hear though the more I'm like yeah I could never hear that song again is like. But I'm glad other people like it have a get out for you know starting from scratch and writing it and then recording it mixing it you know listening to it a hundred times in a row when you make a video and now it's like I've heard it so many times that it's just it's good to hear it in my sleep at this point. Well we want to know why and how you came up with it. I also want to give a shout out to Holly Winchell who is plays the Alicia Keys writes on the chorus and she does a beautiful job. Yeah why how. You know I've been making these videos for YouTube and the like for about three or four years. I have a little I don't like calling it a comedy troupe because we generally just make these music videos but we're kind of like a band that makes videos and it's basically like the four of us we get together I have a producer Darby Christopher Billy Donna who plays the plow guy.

He normally handles the music this is our first song parody but one day I was just watching the real you know Jay-Z version that was such a great song and I don't remember exactly when it clicked for me but it was like if I mean what about New Hampshire you know I've lived there my whole life. So I born there yeah born there you know and I grew up there so basically I just printed out his lyrics. You know I tried in New Hampshire Hampshire ize them as best I could you know where he says I say Salem and just kind of went through the song once doing that and then you know there are there were parts where I couldn't think of something that really fit so that I was like OK what are some of the idiosyncrasies about you have like the liquor stores being on the highway and then I just kind of you know put him in there and while I was writing it I definitely tried to be conscious of the fact that yeah there's stuff in there for locals I mean there's definitely real specific references that you know it's for you if you're from New Hampshire about the same time I wanted the difference between you know New

York and New Hampshire to kind of be where a lot of the comedy comes from so if you're not from here hopefully you can still appreciate it. What's in there for locals. One of the references for locals. Well I make reference to Marcie's in Brownstown used to see food references and I. This right in Seabrook and you know you're either a Browns person or Marquis you know OK and put that in there I made reference to local weather man extraordinary So yeah I mean there's definitely stuff in there I feel like if you're in Montana or somewhere you know you can probably figure it out. But even when I was listening to the Jay-Z version though I mean there's stuff in there I'm not really sure because he's doing his own thing you know if he's talking about New York and I'm sure if I lived you know if I was from New York I probably get a few more of those right. So I wasn't too worried on Mike if you want to google up a program to figure out who he is that's cool. And then you know I don't want to go too cliche there with like cow tipping jokes and I did put one in there you know flannel shirts like that you know it's like there's some stuff in there I felt like OK I'll put this in there for you know the people who aren't from here.

Well your comedy troupe as you call it is called the super secret project right. I'm going to ask you why that is. But I first want to just let listeners know that this is not like your your average YouTube video. I mean this thing looks like it rolled out on Hollywood or somewhere it's fabulous. Yeah I mean you know I actually I got my film degree at Emerson and basically all of us were all film geeks and this is like what we do on the weekends we have a lot of access to equipment and stuff and you know when we're bored on the weekends it's like let's make something and we've been doing it for so long now that I think we're actually getting kind of good at it and I know. That. Right. But I mean you know that being said I mean you know I thought it would be like a fairly big video just because of the source material. You know there's a reason why Weird Al has a job you know Weird Al Yankovic she was the king of parroting a song you know. Yeah. And and yeah you know I I thought it would be a big video but I

never imagined it being like this I mean you know hundred twenty thousand views two days after it went up and then now what. It's got more than the population of New Hampshire now I know that we're not sure exactly it's one point three million I think in a few weeks. But yeah I was like I put it up on a Wednesday and then it was basically 100000 hits a day for a few days and then by Sunday I had the Today Show at my house and I'm like oh what a day. This is great. Yeah. I mean but it's rewarding because we I mean we've made 27 videos some of them have been fairly popular. Some of them haven't you know you get frustrated you say why didn't this one guy work so hard on this one. And then this is the one that went and now people are going back and checking out our other stuff which I'm happy about. Well it seems to me that it has several audiences as you say you have the locals. Then you have people who are just you know interested in the parody. Then you've got people who it's a great tourism piece for the state of New Hampshire.

It should be the official or close to it I'd like to. Yeah yeah I think that emphasis on clothes is a couple things in there that I think if I want to get some language here's a couple and you know I wasn't making it to be a tourism piece. Yes I do make my friends laugh. So I mean yeah there is that aspect but yeah there is definitely all kinds of people have been you know send me messages I love it and you know I've gotten you know emails from guys over and over in Iraq they're like oh you have no idea what this means to me like this is like bringing a pizza home like back over here and I'm just like wow like that's fantastic. Now you know and you know you just as you say I did it for fun you know make any money off of it now you guys are getting hired to do paid good to sing it right. Yeah I mean I've been real careful about not getting paid for that song because I mean I'm not out I'm not trying to cash in on someone else. Why not. You know Jay-Z wants to take me on tour with them I feel like it's understood.

But I mean yeah we have been making these videos for a while and yet now we're we're putting together a live show you have a couple fairly big gigs coming up and we actually played it this weekend at the Verizon Wireless Arena and Manchester New Hampshire and it was like yeah it seems like a good place to try it out. Yeah did you. I can only imagine people with the lighters. Yeah right. This is a great song. Yeah it was it was pretty cool and I mean we didn't have to win them over because it was all you know all New Hampshire people there so it was it was a pretty interesting night. I felt like a rock star. Now what does this tell you about the phenomenon of viral illness. I mean as you said you tried to do this and in fact you had a piece for exact Brett who is an actor let me let people hear that this is another song that made some cyber splash so to Zach Braff the actor. I don't care what you sing in the noggin. People don't know is on scrubs and garden state know that so you know you're just a regular as you

say comedy troupe about other stuff too. Yeah yeah and that was a first kind of like brush with success doing this sort of thing. The difference between right and state of mind in that video was that video got popular because Braff thought it was great. Yeah and then he put it on his website when he was on the tonight show we showed a clip of it and you know it was funny because then we dropped the next video is like this one isn't about Zach Braff down with you guys. But but the grandstand in my video it was definitely all the rest of us. Yeah. You know it was everyone in New Hampshire wanting everyone else New Hampshire to see it. I mean that was the difference I was truly of a viral thing and you know you can't predict that sort of thing. You know just you talk you just kind of make something that you think is quality and hopefully connects with people and apparently this one did so. What about Jay-Z and Alicia Keys. I'd like to be response from them. You know I got to imagine I'm so far off thank god.

But you know I got to tell about it. It's left to us people to let Jay-Z know about this. All right well we're going to go out on granite state of mind because we love the song here. And congratulations to you where we've been talking with musician and videographer genius Christian wise Carver. He's the brains and voice behind the YouTube sensation granite state of mind. He's also a member of the band a super secret project to learn more about them you can visit SSP dot in I N G. Dot com. Christian Weiss conver thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me I really appreciate it. And this is the Calla Crossley Show today's program was engineered by Antonio only art and produced by Chelsea murderers. Our production assistant is Anna white knuckle be where production of WGBH radio Bostons NPR station. And culture.