American Experience; Stonewall Uprising; Interview with Lucian Truscott, IV, 3 of 3

took the hammings to Monticeau and they're saying I'm black and I'm a hammings and I'm a Jefferson and I'm proud and all the white people said no you're not go home you know it's a great American struggle it really is yeah that's actually for you okay I want you to be sociologist for a minute and think about this you know my degree is not in sociology it's an engineering you'll find you're willing to go to the California Social Engineering in so many parts of America at that time you know if these were coming out free love and women's rights and black rights weren't with the king long since you know presence did you sense that like these well it was definitely their term but I don't think

that I don't think they felt left out or the buzzer left the station without him he would have to interview gay people to get that you know they rebate him to get that you know the way they were actually feeling my sense of it was not that that they felt like they were being left behind but I would I would say that the fact that you know there was human beings and people were smoking dope in public and and making out and showing their breasts and doing all this other stuff certainly set a tone that made standing there with a feather ball around you and saying I'm gay and I'm proud a lot more likely to happen and a lot more politically available as something to happen and and you have to remember but by the summer of 69 there had been a Newark riots there were riots in Harlem I mean so rioting and being out in the street and saying I'm not going to take it anymore was was you know in the air I mean

it it could be done I mean it was a possibility and and the you know the mistake the police made in in busting that bar that night was they busted the class of people who were most likely to do that you know the young mixed people of various races but basically young and where being gay was not something that they were ashamed of to begin with you know and and wanting to go out and have a good time was on their minds and then and they already had their heads I guess well there shouldn't be anything wrong with this so when they got busted that night and the vet bar got busted and the one place that they could go on dance was taken away they were mad and they weren't going to take it anymore and that's what started the riot and that's what started the movement in a sense you know if they if if the blackmail ring that had been set up by the mob was going on in a really a lot more straight gay bar it would

have been completely different they probably wouldn't have been a riot it was it was the place that they busted in the nature of that bar and the nature of its patrons that made it possible that that there was a street riot over it in my opinion yeah it was on Sunday and Alan had been out of town somewhere and I knew Alan from around the voice and like Millage Voice Christmas parties and so forth and Taylor made showed up and I was standing and Alan Ginsburg yeah but I I was standing out in 7th Avenue over by village cigars and Taylor Meade came walking down the street telling me it was a was a Warhol Superstar of a sort of lesser you know galaxy of superstars but nevertheless a Warhol Superstar and one of the funniest most incredible inventive people on the

planet and he showed up and I was standing there talking with Taylor and Alan Ginsburg walking by and he knew Taylor and I knew him and so we were all standing there talking and Alan and Taylor were talking about how extraordinary it was that all these kids are out on the street and look at them they're all dressed up and they're so happy and they're so gay out and open and you know and and so Alan said golly I've never been in a Stonewall you know have you and Taylor said no but I you know I've got to go somewhere my boyfriend's waiting or something he watered off so Alan said you want to go to the Stonewall you've been in the Stonewall as a matter of fact I hadn't howard handled that part on Friday and I've been out on the street so Alan said let's go over to the Stonewall so I walked over with Alan to the Stonewall we went in and Alan immediately like started dancing and hanging out and all that and then we left and he was I was gonna walk back down to my loft and he was walking over to

Tent Street where he lived in the lower east side and and that was when Alan said to me like he said that golly he said he said fags don't have that wounded look they thought they've always had everybody's so beautiful and so pretty and so young and so happy and and it was like this it really captured this that what was different you know what was different was you know well being young and pretty and happy and having a good time all this happened in before mine closed doors and now suddenly there it was right out on the street and Alan and Alan was just remarking on how wonderful it was that that change had taken place overnight you know and and he he saw it and and so we got over to like eight street and like Lafayette I guess it was and and Alan said well I'm you know I'm going home I said yeah I turn off here I gotta go down

on my loft and and he took off bouncing he Alan walked with this kind of little bounce in his step and I remember looking at him and he took off all kind of cross the square there and he waved and he said defend the fairies you know you know it was it was it was amazing you know I don't know I look back on stuff like that and I think there I am I'm 22 years old I'm walking across eight street with Alan Ginsburg and he's saying defend the fairies and you look back on it one extraordinary thing it was but but you know what I mean at that time I look I came a year later I lived out on Hauston and Sullivan Street Bob Dylan had a recording studio on the bottom floor of my building and played I played basketball with him on the corner I don't even have a picture not a single picture and you know why because that was what was happening it didn't seem extraordinary to be walking across eight street with Alan Ginsburg and him saying defend the fairies when I moved there a couple years later it didn't

seem extraordinary to have bobbed down on the ground floor that was like you know to the village Bob Dylan out of the other ground floor you know I mean uh you know I just and so if it wasn't extraordinary you didn't go and take pictures of it so I don't have any record of it except for what's in my memory you know but it did sound like I read that you felt unsanitary you first went off yeah I did I mean it was I understood I didn't make the analogy between the Rosa Parks moment and a gay gay pride movement and I didn't make that specific analogy in my mind but I understood that that that the Genie was not going back in the bottle after this that once you stand out on the street and say I'm gay and I'm proud and you're not gonna stop me from being who I am anymore it wasn't gonna go back in the bottle I mean it was already that that had happened with the civil rights movement it was happening daily and nightly with the women's movement was already starting in the pages of the

village voice and you can see that bubbling and and you know and and and I you know I had been paying attention well enough to know at that point in my life that it wasn't gonna go away I don't know what they thought but I do know I can tell you that the village the Greenwich Village you know you know for all of its reputation as a Bohemia and everything is quite a very conservative place you start living on Bank Street in West 10th between between 5th and 6th and you know that West 11th between 5th and 6th and these nice Greenwich Village streets with the nice brown stones and stuff those people don't want noise at night you know they want to have their candlelit dinners quietly like like they

should because they're paying so much rent or so much to own the building or whatever so Greenwich Village can be a conservative place and I would imagine that if I were to go and interview those people or had interview them on Saturday or Sunday night they would have been objecting because we can't have rioters in the street you know listen all of straight America in terms of the middle class was recoiling in horror from what was happening all around him at that time in that summer and the summer before the Chicago riots the human being the dope smoking the hippies the Jimmy Hendrix the Janice Joplin the great full dead all of this stuff was just erupting like a giant as far as they were considered you know like a gigantic boil on the butt of America you know and we ought to have a nice pristine but not a butt with a boil and they're all horrified you know but but none of that was going away you know I lost a girlfriend when I was at West Point for you know it was date and ice

conservative little girl from Staten Island and I took her to see the grateful dead at the gaslight or someplace like the village gate or something the first time they played in New York and the place that sat 75 people you know my god you know she came up to West Point like a week later and said Lucien I have to break up with you and I said why and she's a you're too weird you take me to see these crazy bands and stuff it's just weird who joined the right no no I wasn't aware of that if I were if I were asked to guess it's possible but I didn't see anybody in a suit you know well I mean there are two other people there are two other people who are

what the only when you look back on the only gay people that were out of the closet at that time were famous gay people you know if you were famous and you were you were protected by a kind of cocoon I guess that fame could that could the kind of fame that made you a public person protected you from the kind of oppression that somebody who wasn't a public person would suffer I mean the cops were not gonna bust Truman Capote for walking out of his apartment with a limperrest and saying hi you know because if you bust a Truman Capote you're on the front page of the New York Times that's what protected him that's what protected Alan Ginsburg Alan Ginsburg was definitely out of the closet but who was gonna go messing around with Alan Ginsburg I mean that would end up on the front page of the New York Times you know I mean it was they could go bust bridging tunnel kids with feather ballers that that wouldn't put you on

the front page of the times you know but famous gay people were were free to be out of the closet because they were you know protected in that way but I mean you were asking me about like that that mean the gay people I mean we talked earlier about the gay people that had that led straight lives you know I mean I'm because I'm not gay and I'm not black I can't tell you what it's like to live in a country where there are two Americas but there's always been two Americas in this country for black people there's the America that's behind the closed door of your house which is your place where you can where you can be who you are then there's the America that when you open the door and go to work you got to be in that America that's white America for gay people there was gay America behind the closed door of your house and then you open the door and go to work and you're going to work in straight America and you know because I'm not gay or black I can't tell you what it was like for them and has been like

for them you know for centuries to live in that system but I can imagine and it must have been for for most people of not all living hell because you had to be two people you couldn't just be one person you couldn't just be I'm black and I'm proud in my living room you know until the until the Civil Rights moment came along you couldn't go out in the street in New York City much less Birmingham Alabama and say I'm black and I'm proud that wasn't done just like you couldn't say I'm gay and I'm proud so it must have been a living hell to live to be two people and to have to live in a country that was really cleaved in the middle and and created and turned into these two camps where one of them is a prison and the other one is free and I was not aware of it it doesn't surprise me in the least that that homosexual sex was illegal in every state you

know and and why not straight people wrote the laws so if straight people wanted to perform that that sex in straight you know situations it wasn't illegal because they wrote the laws I mean that's part of the two America's that there's one to one part of America that's the prison where you can be you can be gay but you've got to be it do it by and close doors and keep your mouth shut about it and then the other part is the straight and I wanted to just this is a real detail that that's been housekeeping I know that if I don't ask you David Carter will ask it when the first night there was a lesbian who was fighting if she was taken out of the bar you remember that yeah I do yeah I do it I think it's in my voice story you know there was I you know there was a rather tough lesbian was busted in the in the bar and I have no idea whether she was a patron or or an employee but when she came out of the bar she was fighting the

cops and was trying to get away and and that was part of what started the the reign of pennies and bottles and everything because the harder she fought the more the cops were beating her up and the matter of the crowd got I mean the extraordinary thing about what happened that night was not these that the bust was taking place it was that it was that gay people reacted angrily and said no and and it was it was during I think it was during that bust that the most struggling went went on and the police got most violent with her that that the crowd got the angriest and started throwing things I mean that was a tipping point in the in the in the riot it was a tipping point in the in the attitude of the crowd you know their head up until that point there had been it busted like the couple of drag queens who came out and struck poses that would later become known as the voguing or vamping you know and they'd

strike a posing and wave and then treat the crowd like it was a doring was an adoring met my doing masses you know and it was funny and people were laughing and the cops kind of said move along move along getting that patty wagon you know and but they didn't and the and the drag queens moved along and and so they didn't beat him with a nightstick it was when that lesbian came out and wouldn't move along and was turning around and giving a lip to the cops and and was saying you know what do you know I'm busted I can't remember what she said but that was the tipping point that that went on and that was when the riot started that was when stuff started flying to the air and what was the worst that you saw being thrown the penny stones well they were like cobblestones you know and I don't know where they got them but it my recollection that went from pennies coins I mean from like somebody wanted to throw

something so you look down streets you know you don't have dirt roads in Manhattan so there's no rocks you know on the street so people start throwing pennies and then somebody found some bottles and cans and then somewhere there was a pile of paving stones and all of a sudden they flew through the air and broke the glass in the front window and a couple garbage cans garbage cans are all over all the garbage cans except one the one I was standing on nobody was going to take my advantage went away and and no it's paving stones because if one of those things said yeah you're gonna be hurt and how can you show it in your hands like what are you talking about cobblestone very you know let's say eight inches by four inches and four inches square on the end probably ways a cobblestone I would say because it's not a brick it probably weighs 15 pounds ten pounds it's a heavy piece of heavy weapon you know I mean it's like a big rock like a boulder you know and if you got hit by that you're gonna get a big

dent in your skull or a big you know so they and they were throwing them at the cops I mean the cops well the cops weren't you know standing out there but the cops were bringing people out of the snow wall and then going back in and what happened I think was they brought that was being out and she was fighting and all that kind of stuff and I can't remember whether they got her in a car or not or hauled her back in when everything started flying I can't remember what that you know thing was they had moved the patty wagon away and they brought a car up you know the patty wagon they loaded up with like some these drag queens and young kids that they were busted they moved them away and they brought a car up and I think they then they brought the lesbian out and I can't remember they got her in the car or they hauled her back inside but that was when all the real throwing started at one point the crowd got on the got on the park side of the patty wagon and and said let's let's tip it over and they started pushing on

well that would be like trying to tip over a UPS truck I mean it was a big vehicle and it wouldn't get a tip over they had it rocking back and forth but then that the cops you'll get it get it out of here and they closed it up and drove it out of there the cops were afraid it was gonna tip over and then there was enough people to tip it over and and they drove it out of there and then they they brought in a couple of cars I guess they had two or three more people left a bust or something I had no way I know and I mean I was outside but on Sunday night I mean I I've heard since then I think it's in David's book that there was more there was more incidents on the street on Monday and stuff I didn't know that I was on Monday I was right in the story so I didn't get out on the street and I don't know what happened on Tuesday I didn't have a sense if it was I probably went to the lion said that on it if something was happening it wasn't big enough to attract T.P.F. or a big police presence so

Well I didn't see any TV cameras you know I mean you got a major incident going on down there and I didn't see any TV cameras at all and I the New York Times I guess printed a story but it wasn't a major story I mean it wasn't you know but you know what this reflects this reflects a general a general the general sense of discrimination against gaze in the society as a whole if black people there'd been a riot of that proportion and oh my god you know it would have been like the OG trial there'd have been cameras everywhere you know but but well you know if they knew about it uptown at the Channel 5 in Channel 4 they're probably saying you know it's just a bunch of gay people in the Greenwich Village forget about let's go cover this you know that's what my sense of it is that's why they weren't there but but there really wasn't

very much coverage there's a tiny story in the Daily News I don't even remember reading it until later you know yeah Dave Dave that was on Friday night Dave wandered out of the lion said Dave Van Rauch yet to understand who Dave Van Rauch is Dave Van Rauch is a folks here Dave Van Rauch's voices about like this and Dave Van Rauch is about six two or three and a big guy and Dave wandered out of the lion said to see what was happening you know and and was down there in front of the Stonewall and I think it was when the lesbian was being busted I think that Dave started yelling you know leave real on leave real on or something like that and some cop turned around and said shut up and Van Rauch and I think cursed at him that's what my recollection is at that

point they grabbed him and started trying to cuff him and they got him into into the Stonewall and they put him under arrest for interfering I think interfering with the actions of a police officer and then resisting arrest and stuff and all he did was say stop you know they were beaten or and he was saying stop and some cop told him to shut up and he said if you or something like that and then that no cop was gonna take that even from a great big guy so they busted him but he didn't interfere with the actions of a police officer except in the opinion they had and using free speech I mean Dave Van Rauch got busted for for you know talking out of turn well I think we're good what do you think Dave I think it kind of recovered huge amount of material yeah I just would suggest one thing yeah but that quote from Alan gets very confused off and he has the guy's balls that wounded book and I think just five says so much night when I interviewed you I asked you

what did Alan mean by that and you answer me by contrast and you said you thought that Alan had mine like the shirt and sweater all the crowd at Julius this is what if you if you still agree with that and you remember it so I contrasts the Julius crowd right the kids and how what say that's why Alan was right you want this business yeah well okay okay well you know after Alan and I left a stone wall we're walking you know across Christmas street and eight street Alan lived on East 10th street and I was going to go back to the loft I was right on broom street so I was walking with him and and Alan I was I was walking with Alan and Alan turns to me and he said you know this is so wonderful you know facts have lost that wounded look they've always had and you know it I didn't really quite understand at that moment exactly what

he was saying except that I think what he was referring to was this sort of straighter gay people that that were on the streets of Greenwich Village every day this sort of button down chambray suit you know straight gay crowd living in the closet I think what he was referring to was gave gay people a wounded look you know being in the closet and not being able to be who you are 100% of the time and be out and say this is who I am I'm gay and you know make something of it I mean I'm proud of it gave people I think to Alan a kind of wounded look of you know sort of a furtive wounded look you know and I think that's what he was probably referring to and because in contrast what he was seeing was a bunch of smiling happy I'm gay I'm proud what are you gonna do about it you know chase me around the corner I'll pop up I'll injure you know and I'm still gay I'm still proud I mean there was a contrast I mean it was

obvious you could see it you know this class of gay people on the street were out of the closet and saying I'm gay and I'm proud make something of it and the other class was saying I'm still in the closet and I don't want to disrupt things and I don't want the apple cart to be overturned and I don't want Pandora's box to open I want it to stay closed it with me inside of it you know preferably and that was really a wonderful thing he said I mean it I guess it sort of became a famous quote in the story I mean that I mean you know against where it was a poet why wouldn't he come up with something wonderful to say I mean I'm Alan Ginsburg I mean he yeah he's gonna say something wonderful you know I think we were we've got a great interview one sentence seriously last thing I swear was a stone wall the only gay bar can you kind of just say briefly what the gay bar scene was as far as you're doing and we got to get the reaction the reaction you mean what happened on Wednesday yeah yeah it didn't take long it didn't yeah well you know

I use the word fag in the story and not just in the Alan Ginsburg quote I mean it was there was no sort of rule about who were gay people called you know I mean it and the in the civil rights movement black people stood up and said you're not gonna call me the n-word anymore I'm black well I you know famously used the word fag you know and the story in fact in the lead sentence I said the forces of fagotry so and then Alan said the fags don't have that wounded look you know and there weren't any rules about what you called gay people or whatever at that point they those rules came out of this movement or out of this riot and they happened quickly that the first gay power demonstration the my knowledge was against my story in the village voice on Wednesday they put some people in the street right in front of the village voice protest and the use of the word fag in my story and you know

and the village voice at that point started using the word gay so so the story that I wrote it led to that excellent number two is there a range can you think of that well there were gay bars all over town not just in branch village there are gay bars in midtown there are gay bars uptown there certain kinds of gay bars on it on the upper east side you know really really really buttoned up straight gay bars you know and there were there were for some reason there was a whole bunch of gay bars like in the east 30s and I'm sure there were some of them up our west side there are a lot more gay bars in Greenwich Village as well this stone wall of course just became the focus of all of this because that was where the riot happened and that was where gay people said I'm not gonna take it anymore I'm not considering the back of the bus but there were gay bars all over the place just hustler bars where just well dressed well groomed hustlers hung out for the purposes of married

uptown gay men you know okay just a minute Lucy well there are gay bars all over town and you know I came to find out that like on the upper east side there was at least one gay bar

that was run on and rubbed by the mob just as a hustler bar for a straight verse straight gay married man that you know wanted in their life to you know be have gay sex and be gay and the only way that they could really accomplish that was by paying for it and so they had like really well grown buttoned down hustlers up there to available for these married guys to partake of you know it's me but that's the way the that's what the closet made made gay people do to live their lives at that time so when you say married at 740 park with a 16 room apartment and you know you're married because by God in the banking world you better be married or you know they give those guys direct verbal orders to get married when they're 25 they do they actually do if you want to be a partner in this law firm go get a wife that happens I know people it's happened to me not in New Orleans