Dance Archiving Project; Honi Coles Interview

To me. Wow. Well. Not. Much. And in Allentown area much more crowded it seems. Actually this is a much simpler to really and he's trying I'm sure that Fred Norman was trying to get the Ellington feeling in there this was a piano point was concerned and he got to everybody's notes in there you know. That's what makes it complicated.

He's got the notes it's like almost like a score so he had the horn part running everything within the chord and he's not a piano player and I don't know he's a trombone player. So that horn player and a piano player would write a different kind of charge. Definitely definitely there was a greater range of Redmond who was a great orchestra leader and arranger. Symphony musicians used to say that he knew more what to do with the third and arranging the work for an aware I was an exceptional arranger. He did all the counties and was popular. Don Riddell was there and he's great a great athlete a great arranger and he would write. On a train like this and take a piece of paper like this and write the whole arrangement. Anything to go by just like you would be writing

right away right. Me thinks he was the one of the start of the sing in the background to the thing and the difference was or you know the one thing in this part of the. Deal arranging for dance and everything. Everything that you described he had accurately there was no question about your music being right when he finished. For example I did a chart for me and I was opening at the Apollo with Duke Ellington's band again and he came to music. And he passed the music the trumpet section the rhythm section. It's time when he was playing piano for the show and he told me he did not like a

conductor on every note on this music is right. I don't want you to change anything. And I don't care what you feel. This is the way the music and strange man and the fact that they had no discipline at all and they played it just about how to create your own chart explain. I guess I would have because when Charlie and I got together some charts were not as professional as you had but most of the time you could go to any music store and buy standard arrangement of sweets and you could taste them and know in the manuscript you make your own charts. But I

think really taught me how it should be. Any other musician to me correctly. Teach me right now you must learn from the kinds of questions do you want this phrase you want you want. You want to reach the layout you want one horn and you can you know in my mind I could hear what I wanted. And he would ask the questions that. Needed. Really would be reading. You know do you want this phrase to have a certain feeling like I

had a four course or four course or my fast my second big dance. And it was a medley. And I think I had a full introduction or introduction which I would write down there. Going to it would be and he knew it. You know what your favorite. I went to Russia like Russia.

I love you truly. And he was really well when we first started we would. Me and My Shadow started getting more sophisticated like it was the beginning of sophistication as well as music was concerned because we had charts like I mean like all of these very intricate. So it got away from my right. When you're working on a composition where. Music comes after I've won I. Want to be influenced by music. I want music to be influenced by me and

I don't want music to dictate to me what the stuff should be unless I'm doing a specific thing like we did we did happen there the music biz was like like us already you know like like a rock classical. So you conform with that classical base but normally if I'm creating something I don't want to name it is a given until I'm finished with it and then I will put the music to what I have done. If this is my piece. When you start out do you have a concept in mind in terms of a beginning a middle and an end to every story. Well the only the only time anything like that even occurs to me is like it's according to tempos.

According to what if I shoot then I try to think. I try to think. Smoothly and pretty but if I'm in an uptempo I think a little more staccato. There's no. One develops what eventually happens. I can be doing something and and get an idea. You know I just did this right off of running and that's what normally happens doesn't happen that I have a particular thought in my task. It happens that I'm all of a sudden a step forward and there and I see that with that step if I move here again you know I got the continuity going and that's the way I feel now.

Choreographing for a particular. Say I was going to do like Broadway again then I would I would sort of conform with that idea because this idea was a good idea for all of the people who had introduced us like Edith Wilson at least holding people who were the originators of songs like I can't give you anything but I mean they were originally sang and they didn't write them and then I would try to choreograph in that vein. You know I would want to choreograph like West Side Story right. You know there are two different completely different eras. So that kind of feeling comes in. Well as I was saying in terms of teaching when I first when I first studied with influenced my teaching that I would ever do in the future for an opposition the influence

strong thing. You don't think when I when I watch your step and it's like the length of time to a particular passage here you write as you write and you write a word and the word becomes a sentence becomes a paragraph in a paragraph becomes the whole story so it keeps it from being choppy every one of course you think you know that you're going to lift much and you've got all of those that you're going to conjunctions. You know there is a conjunction between the sentence and that's it was in this paragraph where I think you might start on a new paragraph but you know everything going to the airport has been connected with with events we didn't get there. Another thing that was an inspiration was the fact that any flash that you did the

wings are very hard you would incorporate into the rhythmic pattern and it would be subservient to the story that you were telling rather than something itself. Oh sure I didn't want to I don't want to in the middle of a sentence in the middle of a to put an exclamation point. You know I keep getting the grammatical error that's valid and whether that's me that expresses it. But as well as I could possibly express it like wing steps going into turn here etc. etc. in a way you were working in one sense I think as an artist that that has a great integrity. But in terms of an audience doesn't that work against you in a sense in a commercial thing. Oh I would say I would think so. Sometimes you forget about commerciality and you're think about self-satisfaction you know and you know that somewhere along the line you're going to be able to please that audience you're going to become commercial.

It's oh it's absolutely necessary for you to become commercial. The only time it's not necessary for you to become commercial is when you're when you run your peers and you're you're just not answering demands for self-satisfaction so forth. Showing off a little you know worried about effectiveness then you're just doing your thing with your feeling and to please you you know not to please anyone. You hope. Well that's a big difference. Because I've talked to many dancers to what I really respect and if I want to stretch out on an idea. And then you have to be very stubborn dancers will also have wonderful ideas. Sure because I think that it won't work. So I don't feel like a lot of

people especially people who have gotten into. He kind of thinks like you know their crotches same thing applied music you see a lot of people wouldn't even venture out there that was still playing the same old same swing swing. It's even more modern. You know all of these sounds that sound like somebody just got a horn and somebody gave it to all of these discordant things and this is a new trend. Some of these things are trends and some are trends that eventually become standard. And it's the same way with dancing because of the fast stuff that I did. When I first came to New York after becoming a single after leaving the mill Grove It was a it was new and it wasn't completely understood.

Now it's not. Really. It's like when you think everybody maybe 12 people that were on his own and you can't get the idea that they're out. People though it might be the people doing what people are doing. Great technique and there are people really because they're out there. People like my peers there can be over the whole country. So it isn't that it's common knowledge whether it's you know it's like like I tried to read.

James Joyce That was a I was in the book and I never succeeded never really you know I could read English of course and was like some people who think they can dance well you know well I never get no period. You know that's an analogy of the sort. So that's where that is. What about what about improvisation. How much have you used. I mean composition it's all sure improvising to get to where I want what you want and I think of jazz dancing and I consider this is a great. Point of Contact has had dancing and regular tat. I'll give you give you give me a illustration here.

Not only low down almost. All of this is set. And everything is set and then the band lays out. And then I improvise and you have my staff as tacit Sometimes I am revising stop time I have improvised a lot with stuff but. Most of my routines that I have set for myself. Generally speaking I will leave spots where I will various steps. I will do the same each time you know maybe I'll feel like doing and those that come as improvisation. Some of them do the same thing every time but most of them don't do the same thing they leave open spots going back knowing that I'm getting going to get back to the general form of the dance you know. But the spot is there for me to do what I want and that's but

you have never. Well I'm sure you have signed on with the band and just when them without any home of cool I say sure many many times that we've worked with for example a Buddy Rich and we trade stuff to dance or drama dance and dance a whore. You know that's where that's practice and it's a very healthy practice incidentally because it makes you think and it makes you think in the pattern that is played you know like the player the gives you and you know you might you might answer it or you might duplicate it. For example of the draw of place you might do what you might you might do you know what I mean which is not the thing which is finishing the brain answering

which makes it very interesting to hear all the different patterns. But now this is something that a Broadway tap dancer would not do that is that I can add a whole musical sense to a very it's a part and when you see like. Some of that sort of I'm sorry the tap dance category but I'm sure her name just pops up more than anyone else is when they choreograph a thing that thing is written exactly like they choreographed it for example the phrases and the sounds that were heard in the concerto. It was written ding ding ding ding but there was there was a spot still there for the expression of the individual dancers but a lot of a lot of things are written for the individual must conform to exactly what the choreographer has written. Like any of the ballets or anything these people must do what has

been done. You know of the calls for this. You do you must do that at that point. And I'm talking to you specifically about the Broadway type tapdancing which the syncopation and Ephesus on the musicality. It's not the same here and that's a different type of training. You put me in a very very funny spot there because we are getting around to ethnicity and if we're going to talk about ethnic differences then that's a whole different ball game. You know there's quite a difference between. Up down down down this list put it like that because I don't like to talk about ethnic differences. And there is a great difference. There is the feeling difference. There's the rhythmic thanking the African heritage that you

don't get in Scandinavia. This makes a great deal of difference and I think having been brought up with the jazz music of course you guys like to kind of feel and not. Innately. I mean it just wasn't there from birth it was there for contact Association you know like a lot of stuff. I used swing as well as you know. But you're still you're still swing Italian. And the wrong kind of doubt that is really really good.

The good news is your birthright. You know what I think. I think that's something that when you really love a particular I think you bring yourself to it you can't. You don't want to eliminate something I think if for instance if you're a black artist and you've gone into classical music that you can't say well I'm sorry black artists can't buy class. Oh of course not you know unless there is something brought there is something rotten around history into the other form whether that's a euro you know we'll I don't know whether that's true or not for example you take author Michel. His whole life is dedicated to show that blacks can do ballet classical ballet as well as whites and he has succeeded. He has succeeded there's nothing wrong there except the color as the only thing that they do Swan Lake I guess as well as any other company because that has been a claim the great

critics as for his classical ballet. By the same token you take what's his name Alvin Ailey. He's he's got a combination of things that are not. Really classical and a strict sense of the word class. But Arthur Mitchell has devoted his entire life. Well I think that's kind of the amazing property of tap dance and it is such an American form of bland. That if it weren't for the jazz if it weren't for the mixing of the cultures and the mixing of heritage is a probably wouldn't exist at all. I don't know you mean well for instance in the music they're there that you're in jazz music. There is a European influence and the African you know so that they are they have been blended into jazz and created in Europe and it's not created in Africa it's really here.

So it's a funny thing that you say that I read an article somewhere the other day by somebody who wrote it. The money would Authority that. The first time in Africa you know I mean these classical musicians somewhere alone you know whether it's my I don't know what it could mean why would someone. That and I think that I think that that could be very true. But jazz was created here there's no question jazz was created here and African rhythms were a major part of the creation of jazz. Well basically basically rhythmic basically rhythmic very good

very crude instruments. The Africans were concerned but they always had the rhythm. It's not you. You could make and you never you know what they say. Let's this now let's get into tap here. I think so that we don't get that this is the play. That's what I think that I assume it is giving it to me. As far as I'm concerned it's there. It's there sort of protective measure. They figure that with you when you have this here you have a little vacuum and between the tap. Which is a ridiculous thought anything as far as I'm

concerned. But it does help if you put your screw in there and here it sort of gives you a little more leverage as for his ruling. Yeah and that's really nice and yes this is not my tap. It's telephone tap but it's not my particular. Concern for the Morgan because I don't like this extended lip. Here you can see that at all times when you put your tap on you can still see that metallic piece of piece of metal on the issue and I don't like that you know I don't really care for that and. So you can't write when you do those things either. And it should be a split soul wouldn't soled shoes. I've tried I bought a pair and once I'm

trying to work and every time I look up I was really splitting the song with you. And I'd like to see really for the wonderful sound it would or would would or would in there. They're not attached they're not attached here. So that gives you the flexibility. Originally they when they get all of that were done with a real wooden souls that were good all the way through so there was no bending of the flexing of the foot. This band that's supposedly And it's kind of playing down. Is just that it's the only thing the only objection I have to it is the width of the lip thickness of it there. But it turns out fine it's really important that students to make sure they get the right side sometimes come back with an issue and on time you know we're going to

treat it properly like you like you would for example like me as long as you got that piece of prose there you see them on a watered down comfortably in the air and it's hot in there and they really sound decent. I hate them when they're new because they don't they don't give you what you what you really are accustomed to hearing. And the same thing with the heel you know you have the protest from the heel tap in the heel. That's the heel that's logic you know that when you when you're working a lot. Especially in a soft shoe. That double up in the triple ups. You really have to set the right tempo we're going to take it if you want to get the rioting out there if you want to get your feeling to if you want to get the feeling of it you know I can't see doing it so if you like I jumped ship. You know that that guy was so here with us is

no longer so if you and I don't know what it is. But it's it's a piece of comedy it's what I've been saying. But when you want to get the grace and the fluidity and so forth and it's got to be a nice nice room for me and the whole the whole thing. And like there are so many changes and meter wise and in this book. So if you let You can get it goes well maybe single time to double to triple time and surprise and when I do some of that well I don't mind and I never thought with yourself you know that's a you know I'm gone.

It was like quadruple thought I know. What that expresses that this really expresses or you can do or more. Thank you thank you. Here I don't think it's going which makes the movie of the things if you just did this three course.

Everybody would be bored to death. You know what you do. I'm still the same temple but. What's your view. You have a variation in order to make it interesting. You know the people can be like you can be with my door when we wake up. But strong accents help very much. So it's about break down. Well. Used to be a very important if you really want to change the mood like you hear a lot of bands do a

job that I've done and I don't know about that do you know that that sort of feeling. And it's very effective and very attention getting. I don't know I suppose you do. You're right that when you go right into the next you know it takes you right into another mood and it's a completely different life. Like it's affective very it's very effective. Attention getting as I say and usually it's going groove you know you whatever you're doing. Before you get into it. Completely.

Lot of fires that you go right. You're right into into this real swing which is what you hear with banners to shout out and they may be planning to do doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo. There'll be got got got got to get up and do your own. It's all probably moot but it's like a long meter almost long either. You know it's like you've got a man's temper over you and it's very it's wrong. Well I think tap dances and they only dancers hang out economy bars instead of hate. Well when you say you're arguing with me for five six seven eight it's like that's a bar

or that's not a bar that any of these times musicians crazy whenever they answer me. How many actually are made bars 8 bars is 1 2 3 4 2 3 4 3 2 if you would for. If you and if you're in waltz I want to. 3 2 3 3 2 3 4 2 3 that's that's a waltz time. But if you or if you had 6 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 2 3 but it's your. You counted 6 8 and I think it's from here really important for dancers to learn and I do too. Two I think the dancers are all dancers. It's mostly Why are they back to when they got to the dancers most steps were conceived in a six more pattern with a two bar break that that is the explanation for the eight bar phrase and eight bars is what the first part of any song would be like will

take. You got. Two more time so you got a raise and that period were written an eight bar eight bars are released. The bridge which are with whatever they call it and back to the last a bar which consisted of one chorus. In other words for eight bars thirty two bars the course makes it worse and I've played my music and there is none of that.

That's a really important to know as much as possible or to even have the information that they should try to get more Oh I think they should know and I think that that is something that is kind of ignore it and advanced training. And that's unfortunate. Well I mean a lot of dancers who probably don't know it was from a hole in the ground. This is important when you have to conform to a certain piece of music. And when you have to do exactly the amount of the music you know like that it's important for you to know where you're at and you in your temple. I have a lot of things on the road for me and. Not in dancing. I'd love to be and I love to be a musician by trade. Really. I think I like

to play specially when a guy can just get a good dance. Great great great great camera three years ago we had the idea. Just because these guys know what it is Joe Johns is a drummer. He was a dancer a

rich drummer was a dancer you know you take most drama dances. So there's the question of balance. You know what I was basically real grave about anything and there's nothing the grieving. People don't usually have much of a tap dancer and it's at that hearing when you can play

who's in the room. And when I really play and I play or just play and so when I play it. So at the risk. Ridiculous here and there are no

one else here. It's my logic that where and where you know I was. It was the natural thing to back and there's was all of that will go into the opening that would shock the musical world. But adequate for what. When you were at that you know downtown got a little bit of a history.

Well the probably the most elegant. Or anything of that sort It was very adequate there but it had the most number of people that were employed as far as the shows were concerned it was the most elaborate show in New York City. There's a lot of these things. There's nobody more better more sophisticated great writers writing for the various shows. Everybody in the world. The first thing people want to do is go to the. Great Horn was a chorus girl. Many people

didn't stay there for three months and they played for the show besides playing for the dance in the water. So many things of the things that American history. It was the morning of so many things that the peaches a great great dancer beautiful women like they had

risen he wanted to global but he never came later and they always had they always had great singers singing and dancing was the major singing dancing and music. That was the major goal. Beautiful girls all the prettiest girls were prettiest girls. So everything was black except that was the tragedy. These were people

who ran the blacks were. The only. When I first was working. But everybody else was black head waiter the head waiter. All of the all of the back every employee was black and I mean in the paper. One would. Think it was just him. I really don't know that. I worked I worked close around 34 or 35

counties in and they both occupied the same building at the. Latin Quarter after that. Lou Waters in the water that was cause I was all right but the same lavishness right now have the same kind of owner of the Apollo ring him with his personality like that. There were there were there were several people Hermann Starr the. Manager I mean of the.

Big man and the Starks was a man that you did business with hard you're fired you're. And there was no reflection. It was a completely different sort of point. And I went to the ship it was a pretty good job. Think that you should do this. There's a big difference between the two conditions all conditions would never take that they were in these dancing jobs there weren't any. There was no place to work. There was no place there were absolutely no place to work.

Jolly had gone into doing choreography for the various acts that the attempts at all when they weren't around and it was that and my friend who was the production manager at the Apollo was leaving. I was a good friend of the shift at work for them since 1934. He suggested that they are me and I was happy to get the job because there was the consistency of the gig and it kept me in showbiz. I was a production man. I lined up the show and so forth was or I was I was completely in charge after. Five o'clock in the morning

you know just the general saying that the shows were lined up properly in the right. That was my biggest perk was writing things for the various groups that would come in. We got to the groups and write little pieces for people like people who. Saw the shift from Big Bands regular jazz shows like shows like The Red

five you get five or six acts on the bill the switch the rock everybody sounds. Women with no respect for show business no respect for the Iraq artist with very few exceptions have absolutely no respect for example this was a going to do a show at 7 o'clock I wonder and it's good they got a hit record. At first when the rockets started coming in I would offer my whatever of so-called talent say hey look come on down to earth and show you how to get on and I'll show you some of my just written a song a week or so ago Manning was an overnight hit now they got 5000 10000 big stars but you know nothing about the

lighting costs nothing about getting on stage and getting off stage with your other two most important things and who did you write what did you want to. Say one is another tragic thing about those rock acts they would come in and say they have a hit record. So they come and we got a rehearsal 10 o'clock in the morning and rehearsal always say OK OK you're going to do so and so and so and so yeah we're going to do our hit record. Where's your music record. That's where the band would have to we have to sort of cross the street and get a recording and play the recording and it really would listen and give me a C chord here. And you play it and that's the way that they knew nothing about getting arrangements but they knew

had a hit record and they acted accordingly. Well how did that make you feel. It made me go to the bar next door which I did constantly. I went to the bar. I got this respect really. And finally what is what happened at the theater started going down down down there. The acts that so they didn't want to come up. There were plans for these places. The theater has a small capacity and they couldn't afford any further. And the opportunity came along for the joy and I took it very happily I was just tickled to death to get away from

the street. The man who kept me there in the beginning was Frank Shipman and he had passed his son and I was good friends and still are. But that feeling wasn't there. I did a year and a half on the road with plaited here and I started doing concerts and so forth and so on. Colleges are very good and I came back and expected that you know you probably would go to the tap tap as. Well. It's been a wonderful opportunity again to talk to long.

There's been a lot and a lot of. A lot of people to learn from what you have time. It's my pleasure to talk with you. It's my pleasure to have lived long enough to have kids like yeah. Well I just hope we can. That's a lot of things to do yet. Well I would say so. I was fortunate last year I went through it before as I guess I went to Holland and the weather brats are there 16 weeks I guess and it looks like it might happen again and only this time in Austria and France and you know the whole thing and I'm happy with the college dates no matter if kids are going to Georgetown next week to teach for four days. So it's real pleasure

real pleasure. But no my shoes were good. Yeah yeah. OK. I mean think of. Iraq war would have.