WGBH Radio; The Callie Crossley Show

I'm Kelly Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show. Last year on July 16th the acclaimed black scholar Henry Louis Gates was arrested at his home by a white police officer responded to a report of two men believed to be forcibly entering Gates Cambridge residence. The case renewed a national conversation on race class and racial profiling. One year later our guest Charles Ogletree joins us for his take on the incident by way of his new book The presumption of guilt. From there it's on to our radio beer tour of Boston's local burgeoning craft breweries along the way. We drop in to artists for Humanity a Boston institution that brings inner city teens and art together. Up next three examining race redirecting teens and re-imagining be heard. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi saying. Elena Kagan is one

crucial step closer to being confirmed to the U.S. Supreme Court. NPR's Carrie Johnson reports the Senate Judiciary Committee has just approved Kagan's nomination by a vote of 13 to 6. There were a few surprises in the Senate panel's vote to approve only to Kagan all of the committees 12 Democrats support Kagan South Carolina Republican Lindsey Graham represented the only wild card. Graham bucked his party and cast his vote in favor of Kagan. Kagan is the solicitor general and she served as the first female dean of Harvard Law School. The full Senate could consider her nomination in early August shortly before the summer recess. Carrie Johnson NPR News Washington. The former head of Britain's EMI five Intelligence Service rejects there was a connection between al Qaeda's 9/11 attacks on the U.S. and that Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein. She said as much today to a British inquiry which as Larry Miller reports from London is trying to find out what actually led to the war in Iraq. Eliza Manning and buglers said there was a lack of credible intelligence to suggest Iraq had anything to do with the September 11th attacks and that was also the view of the

CIA in her words it was not a judgment the found favor with some parts of the American machine in particular former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld Manning him Buehler said the invasion itself gave Osama Bin Laden his Iraqi jihad enabling him to move al Qaeda into the country. For NPR News I'm Larry Miller in London. In the U.S. the housing sector takes another dive Daniel Carson says a latest report out of the Commerce Department reveals new construction drop 5 percent to their lowest level in June. Analysts say it's not surprising home builders are scaling back especially now that the homebuyer tax credit has expired although interest rates are at record lows. Builders are facing stiff competition from cheaper existing homes not to mention the bargain basement prices of foreclosed properties. Patrick Newport is an economist with IHS Global Insight. These are brutal times for builders. The key statistic is how long it takes you to sell a home. And right now it's about 14 months. So these are very difficult. Time and they're not likely to get much better over the near term unless economy starts generating more jobs.

Economic growth is on track to generate a million and a half new jobs this year. But for now at least four million houses are sitting on the market. For NPR News I'm Danielle Karson a vote to end debate on unemployment extension could come within hours Democrats will have the 60 votes they need to break a GOP filibuster after the new U.S. Senator Carper Goodwin is sworn in today. He was picked by West Virginia Governor Joe Manchin to fill the seat left vacant by Senator Robert Byrd staff. Earlier today Manchin said he intends to run in the fall for birds unexpired term. This is one of the toughest decisions I've ever made. My wife and I have talked many many sleepless nights over this. The GOP has top prospect in the race is Congresswoman Shelley Moore Capito on Wall Street Dow down 60 a ten thousand ninety two. This is NPR News. Good afternoon I'm Cally Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show last year on July 16th the acclaimed black scholar Henry Louis Gates was arrested at his own home after police responded to a report of a possible breaking and entering at his Cambridge

residence. My guest Charles Ogletree has a new book assessing the incident titled The Presumption of Guilt The Arrest of Henry Louis Gates Jr. and Race Class and Crime in America. Charles Ogletree is a professor of law at Harvard Law School and counsel to Henry Louis Gates Jr. during Gates racial profiling incident. He also continues to advise on police behavior to both Harvard University and the City of Cambridge and his special counsel to President Obama. Charles Ogletree welcome. Thank you How are you. Now before we get started listeners what's your take on the incident. Was Henry Louis Gates presumed guilty based on his race. Was race an issue or something we default to when it comes to an incident involving a white police officer and a person of color. What is your take on how this incident played out. We're at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 that's 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. So Professor Ogletree right to the title presumed guilty that's not a legal concept but one that you say is unfortunately predominate.

It is. And I took this title I've been teaching for many years it's my third decade now in the legal title as presumption of innocence. But in far too many cases there are people who are presumed guilty because of their race their class where they shop where they drive where they eat. And I thought it's time to at least examine whether we're going to be a society that presume people guilty or presume them innocent until they're proven guilty by a court of law and I think some things went very bad. A year ago on July 16 2009. And I hope without people except in my point of view they'll look at the entire record of what actually happened and make their own judgments about what happened. Yes in your book you you mentioned that certain facts are indisputable I wonder if you just read this paragraph on page 28. Yeah certain facts are indisputable in this case it is indisputable that anon when one caller had observed two men attempting to enter 17 Ware Street it is indisputable that the caller believe that two men could be working or living 17 Ware Street and therefore attempting to enter the residence lawfully. It is indisputable that the caller never raised the issue of race until prompted by the police dispatcher

and then only mention the race of a possible Hispanic person. What is arguable is the description of events and conduct as articulated by Sergeant James Crowley. It is his interpretation of those facts that deeply influenced the way this case unfolded and resulted in the arrest. All right I want to listeners to hear from the Nine one one call that came in on July 16th of last year this is after Henry Louis Gates found himself locked out of his house. I don't know if they lived there and they just had a hard time with their key but I did notice that they kind of knew their shoulder to try to barge in and they got in. I don't know if they had a care or not because I couldn't see from my angle but you know when I. Look closely. Satellite estimates from the summer house they're still on the road I believe. Well I thought That's right. Well they were too large and then one looked kind of a stand if I'm like really short. So she was pushed to give some racial identification. She was asking she gave what she knew she said one looks Hispanic She never said they were

black man carrying backpacks but that is written in cold dry ink in Sergeant Crowley's report or did you get that from his report says I talked to the eyewitness that's Miss Lucy a Whalen who I say is the hero of this event. And she said I don't know if they work there. I don't know if they live there. I don't think they lost their key. No presumption at all but I think someone is going to a house. I'm calling the police. She's a great citizen she did her job. So I do understand I have never understood in all in the years since how this which is essentially a lie can exist on an official police report. You know it's very interesting because I think Sergeant Crowley was describing what he imagined happened and people have both conscious and unconscious reflections. It's clear that no one told him that there were two black men with backpacks didn't happen. I don't know how it ended up in this report. It's clear that she said unequivocally and that's why the 9 1 1 it's important that she did know if they work there or live there. But it's also clear if you think about it if Sergeant Crowley thought that Professor Gates after producing his Harvard ID and his driver's license

which is undisputed because that's a 9 when he gave his ID if he thought Gates was a burglar he could have arrested him. Let's sort it out later. You know if you know there's a crime the guy's in the house I'm not sure who he is arrest him. He could have said I'm not sure if the burglars are still there or maybe it's not Gates but there are two black men with backpacks. He could have searched the house he's in it. He could have done that he didn't do that. He could have waited for the Harvard police because Professor Gates is called the Chief which means Bud Riley of the Harvard University Police Squad to verify that he was in his own house. This whole incident people forget it took six minutes not 40 minutes or four to six minutes from the time a report of a breaking and entering to the time he was placed in a police car six minutes total. And you talk about a rush to judgment. Someone could have prevailed. Just think what the Harvard police to come in here and settle this. And as the report by the Cambridge citizens committee said. The Caymans review committee they said could have been deescalated either by Sergeant Crowley when he got the ID or by Professor Gates by not going outside. I say

Gates had the right to do everything he did he did say do you know who I am. Do you know who you're messing with. He did say I'm going to follow a complaint I want your name your badge and he said all those things are you doing this because I'm black and you white he said those things but he's a right to say them. This is a single family house it's not an apartment building. It wasn't a public disturbance no one from the public heard it. Right. And so there is no disorderly conduct in terms of what he was doing in his house it only became an arguable crime when he went out the house to continue arguing about WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS TO ME. Asked the Harvard police I belong here and I think that's the problem I have to ask you about the two reports that have come out in the last couple of months both of which steadfastly run away from the issue of race. And I don't really know how you evaluate this case without looking at race. The Cambridge Police Review Committee says we were only supposed to come away with quote lessons learned of the review by the Boston investigative units that we were only looking at disorderly conduct. What.

This makes no sense to me and makes no sense at all and it's really unfortunate for the public because there's a thirst for information for resolution and think about this. Here's what Crowley said heres what Gates said well what evidence do we have we have the written reports we have the 9 1 1 call we have an eyewitness. Don't you think that that evidence is relevant about race now because the woman who said I don't know if there live there work there she says I think once Hispanic She never said what's in the report. And it seems to me that that's unfortunate unfair to the public to not have the number one and number two where the review committee may be right. There is a class element when Fessor cases do you know who I am he really meant that right. I'm not some black guy breaking in some house I live here. I work here. I'm a Harvard University professor. He didn't say all this but it was obvious I've received the MacArthur Genius Award I've written books on ward winning movie shown right here on GBH and PBS. And so it was startling because he knows police all he loves police officers he thinks that he's the guy who's never in trouble in the police are

doing their job. And then he told me when he was at the Cambridge police station he said three You've always talked about a million black men in jail. Now it's a million in me. It was a revelation for him that he never thought that someone like him would be arrested under circumstances like this. And yet. In the context of your book I mean you talk about this specific incident with great detail so people can look at it and see the evidence. But you also put it in the context of just general racial profiling of black men that goes on whether people want to believe it or not quite a bit. Right and that is race in class I talk about my colleague Professor Alan Connor who's a doctor who was stopped in Harvard Yard because he was a suspect in a robbery and only his students came out and verified who he was. He never got an apology from the police. He did get one from Harvard University and he remembers that from 2004. I talk about my student Robert Wilkins who was a Harvard Law School graduate who stopped on Maryland highways and they want to search his car he refuse a search anyway he filed a lawsuit one Maryland agreed to stop racial profiling and then eight years later he sees that they're doing it again and started to follow

another claim. So I talk about it not just happening to people who are faceless nameless and powerless but they're very powerful people find themselves in the in the crosshairs of police. This is not an anti police book at all because the reality is that I say we the black community have to deal with the police we have to accept what they're doing they're protecting us. We are as much victims as we are accused. And we need to make sure there's more diversity in police forces we need to make sure that they do more community policing as the reports that we need to make sure that we respect and honor their job of protecting and serving our community that's absolutely essential to what police do. We're talking with Charles Ogletree whose new book is called The Presumption of Guilt The Arrest of Henry Louis Gates Jr. and Race Class and Crime in America and Professor Ogletree we have a caller. Go ahead please. Yes good afternoon my name is Henry Peterson and Kelly I just love your show. Keep up the good work. Oh thank you. My question is where I can sit back but television stations I love name which

Latins but there's a lot of governments that will. Oh right. Say that when we have an eyewitness to the talking about they were to magically say the person is black. But what ever stations when they talk. Please give us a description of the person who close this particular crime. Well they won't say other specifics but they will make a distinction if the person is black and right why is that such a disparity among the media when describing a black person. When the person is truly sick from head to toe and it's not consistent across this is let me tell you is an excellent question and I'm not going to comment on the television station and government center my comment on the broader issue. It reinforces unfortunately people's fear and their assumptions about crime

and criminality. And so they put a face and a color on crime and it sticks right. And when you look at some of these profiles is even worse because it says well in our area we have crimes involving black males. OK well describe them well they're somewhere between 15 and 35 years old or someone with 115 230 pounds. They're in the dark or medium or light complection. I mean it goes back and forth and until it means anybody can be fit and fit in their profile. But I think you're right it only feeds into the public sense about fear. And I think there's a website I'd like you to take a look at. It's at Harvard University is implicit in Harvard edu that allows all of us to test our views about race about gender about age about class and it's amazing how we all have these almost unconscious biases in this test reveals that our minds are set to respond to certain stimuli and it's a very good test. And part of the work we're doing at the Charles Hamilton

Houston Institute is on unconscious bias and why we have to look at this broader issue as it pervades our society that work is done by Mars the wron. But as for she is a remarkable and we're doing it as well though. Jennifer Bernhard is that Stanford she's she's been part of a conference we've done and she has done some of the same work and it's just amazing when you start to see the perceptions of people and all of us have all the right the sense of right. Yes yes. So I want you to just play out the tiniest clip from President Obama's press conference this was a week after the release of Gates is a rest and he was reflecting responding to a question about it so here we go. The Cambridge police. Acted stupidly in arresting somebody when there was already proof that they were in their own home.

Again I just pulled that out because what got used was they acted stupidly right now he should've said Rice just be on the record about that. But the rest of the sentence was in their own home right. And that didn't get expressed as I say in the book that the first thing is that when the president came and commented on this a week after Gates arrest it blackened him because the country responded in a very negative way because here's the president. Also he was the black president defending his black friend the Harvard press against his hard work and it is a hardworking white middle class officer in Cambridge and Crowley is highly regarded by his colleagues and African-Americans who I know. I said the book George Greenidge Sr. knew him and worked with him. So that's part of the second point people get he then said that there's a problem a racial profiling of blacks and Hispanics as a state senator in Illinois he supported legislation dealing with racial profiling Let's hear that. Let's see here's Obama again in the same press conference responding to the wider issue to enter Louis Gates arrest.

What I think we know separate and apart from this incident is that there is a long history in this country of African-Americans and Latinos being stopped by law enforcement disproportionately. Professor Ogletree whose new book is The Presumption of Guilt The Arrest of Henry Louis Gates Jr. and Race Class and Crime in America. People just do not believe that. Right exactly. And it's and it's sort of the interesting thing the president said about it took his health care effort off the agenda. He was the head we had the beer summit with the Vice President Biden and the two individuals involved in Cambridge and the president and we were just on a journey having nothing to do with trying to promote some national policy so it was very unfortunate. And the president trying to be helpful actually generate an enormous amount of disruption and I hope people will talk. I don't mind discussing and debating it with anybody. I think we should talk about it we should talk about race talk about class and talk about crime as opposed to pretend it doesn't happen.

And the book is designed to a lot of people who are wondering why can't one thing the president say the last thing you said in the police car when he was taken away was call tree which meant call me. Most people can't call a lawyer. They don't have a friend they they won't be able to get the counsel they represent the represent them and so that's the broken system how do we fix the system. How do we allow police to do their job better my wife Pam Ogletree has a program called Youth the police partnership why PPD where young Latino and African-American boys and girls are working with police. And we need to have that effort to say we want to change our society from the bottom up and that's what that's happening now and I hope those lessons will be important what we do. Fully half of this book is an epilogue in which you called 100 ways of looking at a black man you have eight categories driving while black presumed guilty of criminal activities and you profile in very short profiles. Many people outside of Henry Louis Gates who are fully

credentialed and should be where they are and are presumed guilty because they happen to be black men. Exactly as I said in the book that I after Gates arrest or receive faxes text messages e-mails phone calls and letters from black and white women in a Latino Asian American every race gender ethnicity imaginable about what happened to them their grandmother grandson grandfather grandson cousin nephew niece but most of them came from black man and professional black men who I knew and you find in this book vignettes from everybody from Spike Lee and Vernon Jordan to the Attorney General Eric Holder right to judge just right here Judge Leslie Harris after American judges in Dorchester were juveniles about his problem in the courtroom. And two legendary people like my dear friend John Hope Franklin the late Justice Thurgood Marshall the late Johnnie Cochran. The stories are endless and the ideas that I want you to know it happens to a lot of people you may think it's rare and the only unfortunate thing even if it's only

to make some mileage out of it. Most of these people never brought a case against anybody. And that's unfortunate because I also in talking to most of the gentlemen in this case most of them wanted one thing not money. They wanted an apology. They wanted respect and dignity something that any person regardless of their race their class their age the written religion can I get some respect and dignity when a mistake is made. And I think this this tells us that a mistake was made when this could have been deescalated I have to say as well that and one of the other heroes in here is the new police commissioner in Cambridge Robert Haas. He came to me the week after this happened. We've been working on meeting for most of last year and this year and we still working because we want to solve the problem. We can sit in argue back and forth of different points of view but the reality I want to community safety the police to do their job to be protected to be trained to have the resources and that's why we're doing it.

One of the things that I was also want to ask for a year is why Sergeant Crowley who was touted as a leader and in training other police officers with regard to racial profiling could not recognize this scenario as classic potential for racial profiling. I don't know and I think he's he said he's been searching his mind trying to figure out he actually got it. We had a very nice talk when he was at the White House with the White House and he said he went to his computer that night at about 11:00 o'clock after a get off already and googled Gates and said Oh my. He didn't know him. He really didn't know him. And he also had not made arrests in many years. So that's that's part of the record as well. And so I think it's just that Gates was demanding something that Crowley probably hadn't seen a long time. Who are you. Why are you doing this to you know who I am. All those go you know questions that are pushing the envelope and probably pushed back and actually says a report I couldn't hear in his house because the acoustics I ask him to step out once Gates steps out and continues asking the

same questions then it becomes a crime. Then you can say it's disorderly conduct cause there's a public there. There are people there they're police officers. And it's amazing how the law works that's at least to me. A less than appropriate application of the law and I think talking about that as the report does helps that and I think there's been a lesson learned from Sergeant Crowley a lesson learned by Professor Gates and I hope the lesson learned by all of us that these things can be prevented. They can be avoided. They can be addressed in other forms. Handcuffs on somebody who's 58 one hundred fifty three pounds or five foot a physically disabled or crippled since he was a baby with three surgeries on his right hip and one leg short in the other with a cane. He's not the most threatening person around. He has a loud voice but he wasn't drinking. He wasn't on drugs and what the typical disorderly conduct we know what happens in those cases but this was a case that's unfortunate but it's a great teaching too.

All right. Well we've been talking with Charles Ogletree about his new book The Presumption of Guilt The Arrest of Henry Louis Gates Jr. and Race Class and Crime in America. Charles Ogletree is a professor of law at Harvard Law School and counsel to Henry Louis Gates Jr. during Gates his racial profiling incident. He also continues to advise on police behavior. To both Harvard University and the City of Cambridge and his special counsel to President Obama thank you so much for joining us. Always a pleasure. Next is a conversation about the intersection of our teens and a paying job. Support for WGBH comes from you and from circus Marcus. The

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Your support helped. Eighty nine point seven connecting your community with the world. On the next FRESH AIR why malaria is still with us after 500000 years and how mosquitoes spread it. We talk with journalist Sonia Shah author of the fever. Also some of our best love songs got their start in movies. We talk with Philip Furia author of The Songs of Hollywood. Join us. News music and culture from around the world can from your own backyard. There's lots more to come so keep listening. Listener support eighty nine point seven WGBH is your radio station. I'm Kelly Crossley and this is the Kelly Crossley Show. This summer many of Boston's teens are at loose ins with more and more people pounding the pavement as job opportunities continue to

shrink. Teens are finding themselves at the back of the line. And the shortage is exacerbated here because Boston has had to cut summer jobs programs. But one organization has long been a source of employment for the city's teens artists for humanity. And joining us today to talk about the intersection of teens the arts and a reliable job is Susan Rogers and founder executive director and artistic director of artists for humanity. We're also joined by 17 year old cat Morgan who's been participating in the program since she was 14. Welcome to you both. Thank you Kelly. So I'm going to be here. Oh great. I want to start with you Susan and just found out how this is how it began. Marrying art and teens and jobs. Well I'm an artist a painter and I started in 1991 with a kind of crazy idea that I could make these large scale paintings with teens and sell them to businesses and fund my own program in the schools. As you probably know most of the underserved schools in the city don't have

arts programming for kids and it's actually something that's been cut out of most schools period. Most do you think you know. Yes it's all about testing. And I recognize that the arts it really changed my life and empowered me and I really felt committed to bringing that to the kids in the city. I found a small group of kids in middle school and we made this big painting and I went shopped around and before you know it they were at my studio wanting more painting more paintings doing anything they could to stay working as artists. It was fascinating because they really didn't know that you know artists had studios and they went in there and they made things and as an entrepreneur you know we sold things so we could make more things. And there we are today. You know that's the whole point I mean it's plenty of room for creative expression but it's structured. Kids you know they have a purpose when they go in there you're creating with a purpose as it were.

I like to say we have the carrot in the stick you know we pay kids an hourly wage plus a commission to come in and work as. He meant toward by artist to produce fine art and design services for businesses so you know they get to meet clients they get to have deadlines they have to show up on time and at the same time you know they're there with their friends they've been creative. They're having fun. It's it's a really a tremendous opportunity for kids and kids love being there I mean getting paid to make art is a pretty cool idea. And you know it's fascinating this year. Last year we worked with seven hundred twenty six clients why one year you know we're earning close to 45 percent of our cash needs. It's I don't want to work so I've been to your website and some of the pieces are fabulous created by the students it's great so I want to get Kathy in on this conversation. Kat you brought with you one of your pieces. You're a photographer. Yeah. I've worked in the photo studio for about almost three years now. Tell us about your portrait that you

brought here which is really nice. Thank you. It's a photograph that I took last summer at a concert I went to in Connecticut and it's of a band called aesthetic perfection. And I'm really attached to this base because you know it was a really enjoyable concert for me and it's I think it just came out beautifully. I think it looks like an album cover I think you should tell those people describe it actually sensitive. Describe it for our listeners. It's the lead singer of the band standing at the front of the stage he's holding his microphone and kind of gazing out into the audience and is a smoke machine like kind of playing behind him in this. So there's a huge cloud of red smoke and everything's lit in red and it's it's very already looking I have to say. And why not because you're an artist so you've been in the program since you were 14 How did you. What made you interested in it. Well two years before I started working there when I was in middle school guidance counselor of mine referred me there because he knew that I liked art but I wasn't really getting that sort of stimulation in my school. So he referred me to their Saturday blast program which is like for

kids who can't work there yet they're like 12 13 11 and they come there on Saturday mornings and you know it's kind of a free paint session they're taught to draw they're taught to paint and they can do whatever they want and then they can earn credits towards were actually working there in the future. So I did that for about two years and then I started working in the fridge and I've been there ever since. Do you think of yourself as an artist now. I like to think of that. And what makes you. How have you seen your growth happened since 14 to now 17. Well I've always been interested in photography which is what I do if it but before I like didn't really know how to take a good picture like I knew. This is the camera you press the button it takes a picture but I didn't really know what constituted a good picture like what would make something that someone would want to buy or something that someone would want to look at. And from being there I've learned you know different techniques for creating a good image and also just kind of how to present myself as an artist. Oh fabulous. Now Susan I have to ask one of the questions for humanity why artists for humanity why is that part of the name.

Well we wanted something that would resonate in arts and humanities always gone together. And you know we're here really providing a service to under-served people and where our mission is to help build a bridge between young people from under-served communities and the business community. And we're committed to the ongoing development of serving young people bringing in you know ever. Growing groups of young people training them in leadership. Many of the mentors that work with us are actually youth that have graduated from FH and gone to our school and come back. So you know I think our broad picture is to provide services for teens all over the world. I mean connect to groups for example where we've worked with groups in Israel with Palestinian and Israeli youth and we've gone around through Britain and talked to people about the arts groups about infusing their programs with entrepreneurship. You know that. No no no making money as an artist and how you can do that and still retain your individuality and your

and your aesthetic to your local and global. Yeah. All right. Well growing cat what would your life be like if you were not a part of artists for humanity. I think it would be very boring for stuff. And I think it would have as much direction before I came to if I didn't really know what I want to do with myself like just in my free time or what I wanted to do in the future after finishing school and being as if it kind of gave me a direction to put my life towards. I didn't know what I really enjoy doing and once I began working there I realized that taking pictures and just being an artist is what I really wanted to do and what I wanted to do it myself. How did you know I often look at artists and I talk to artists and I wonder how you feel when you're creating it. Well it's a little different from like painting or sculpture it's photography is very instant like you just kind of snap your fingers and it's there where the painting takes more time but you have to have that either OK this is true. But even though it can take time to set up an image and compose properly and it's just a good feeling because you know you know you're going to make something

beautiful that other people will enjoy. Now have you seen other students participate who you know don't go on to become an artist they're not really interested in that in the long term but it still works to help them. I still I think like even if you don't pursue art as a career just being there helps out because you learn like different skills that you can apply to other things and you also get to interact with like a wide variety of people from all different sorts of groups that you may not have originally interacted with. What about what do you say to that Susan. Have you seen that. Oh it's you come in who don't care to pursue art is their life's work. Absolutely. We're we really employ kids who want to be part of a community and of course want to have a job where they can feel like they're contributing something back. Many of our kids do go into art school and they they mostly focus in design arts and illustration and web design and all the current media. Media Arts of today but also kids go into business they go into

teaching to going to social work. It's really about finding your potential you know the arts are a really positive way to discover yourself and how you fit in and what you have to contribute to the world. And I think that's really what kids are there for they feel valued they get respect for being given real responsibility. They are able to develop meaningful relationships with adults and really envision a future for themselves. That's what a job supposed to do for 14 right now. Each student can sell his or her own work you know directly to people who are interested in it. But the corporate work that you do is a group done by the group. How do corporations find you to do this work for them. Well we're celebrating our 20th year next year and a lot of our clients are repeat clients. And. The word spreads. You know we have this unique ability to give you something fresh and really special it's that so designed by a young person who's you know not

a traditional designer and the artist mentor that works with the kids make sure that the product is professional. So the word has spread. We have three people who are fielding calls during the day and and sometimes they're out cold calling you name it we're out there looking for clients. Currently we're doing a fair amount of work with developers which is really interesting designing awnings for buildings and signage and way finding and I like to say we'll try just about anything what so give me a good example of one of the corporate gigs that you guys have fulfilled. Well right now we're in the final stages of constructing an awning for. National Development which is a very large developer for a building right down in Fort Point which is our neighborhood and a high school senior design was chosen they had to go through the whole process of building a model and and presenting the

design to the client. And it's been chosen and will be built and installed this fall. We also won a state wide competition to design a bike rack for the Mission Hill community of Boston and we came up with six really fantastic designs and the city couldn't decide they ended up building three of them and they've recently been installed and we're going to start launching. So we've also been contacted by the mayor to build bike racks for bike Boston and one of them will be installed in City Hall Plaza on the other I think in Federal Hall and and Newbury Street and they're sponsored by T Do you think. OK so a wide variety can have you participated in any of this. These corporate jobs. Yeah. Photography studio. Currently has a permanent exhibition up at the airport in the C terminal there's a whole series of our some of our specialty kaleidoscope images hanging up there. Two of our two 9 feet by a nine foot kaleidoscope are also hanging up in the convention center in South Boston. And we've done like just a variety of installation and semi-permanent

work. Wow. It's really great. And I just thought it was wonderful interesting tables when you describe that you can't some of the tables you guys do well there. Well this is the revision tables are done by the sculpture studio and what they are is just junk mail and or just other recycled materials rolled up and sealed in resin to make these really beautiful tables and they are gorgeous I have to say. Well congratulations to both of you. I am very impressed. I've been speaking with Susan Rogers then and Kat Morgan Susan Rogerson is the founder executive director and artistic director of artists for humanity. Kat Morgan is a photographer she's been with the program for three years and her works for sale. Thank you both for joining us. Up next it's a look at the burgeoning craft breweries in Boston. Stay with us. Support for WGBH comes from you and from Skinner auctioneers and appraisers

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tonight because it really isn't there. That's the mayor said by comedian Adam Sandler. That's because we're talking about beer. I'm Kelly Crossley and this is the Kelly Crossley Show in an era of craft breweries BYOB. No longer means bring your own Budweiser. It's more likely to mean Bring Your Own Big Foot barley wine style. Joining us to talk about this beer revolution that's thriving in Boston are Clay reizen and Dan and Martha Kent. Clay risin is a New York based editor and writer and a liquor and beer blogger for The Atlantic Monthly. And Dan and Martha Pickett are founders of pretty things brewery in Cambridge. Welcome to you well I thank you for having me. OK Clay I'm going to start with you because I think we all need to understand what is a craft brewery. Well it you know by definition according to the Brewers Association it is breweries that brews less than two million

by two million barrels or bottles. But there are guys can you help parents by two million barrels a day. Yeah a year. But you know I think there's also a qualitative definition that goes beyond just the quantitative measurements and that is you know a brewery that is not particularly interested in volume sales. A brewery that is more interested in in crafting for quality and crafting for a particular flavor is trying to really get out all the things that you can do with a beer rather than simply trying to hit you know the demographically defined middle of the road. OK. Well and so we have two people here who are doing just that. Martha and kit they are with pretty things and I have to say these bottles are mighty pretty. Already they're different and crafty. That's right. We brew the beer and we draw the labels so it's some continuity.

Well this will definitely spread out on the shelf. Right no doubt about it. Tell us about what you brought here. OK so pretty things beer nail project is basically myself and and my wife Martha. And this is the whole company pretty much. We have one guy in New York City who's who says hello to people for us which is really great but. Our flagship here Jack door is we call it saves on America and it's sort of inspired by a Belgian style that's made for seasonal farm workers in Belgium. But we've our American twist to it with American hops and 6 percent alcohol unfiltered. And obviously we're not we're not pandering to any group. They're in the beer market we we we don't get up in the morning at 1:30 to thinking about money it's all about you know the green ops and this is that yeah. Well put it up and pour some so we can take a sip of it. But these days Clay I and I am not a beer drinker I have to say I am

aware of how the craft brews are everywhere. I mean that's the thing this is what's happening now. Well you know they they are and they aren't. I mean in in the big cities and particularly on the East Coast around and around Denver very popular and on and on the West Coast. You're going to see a lot of craft beers but they still compromise still comprise a very small amount of the actual market whether it's by sales or volume. Most people you know 95 percent of Americans still drink what are called the adjunct big beers or big company beers you know Budweiser and Bud Light. But but nevertheless you're right. What we've seen over the last certainly. The last 25 years but really even the last five years this is an explosion in in availability. A lot of this has to do with distributors starting to realize that they can they can bring these smaller beers to

to their customers to their clients and they'll actually move them. I do think that there is a very rapid recognition among what used to be. But you know Joe Six-Pack guys that that for a few dollars more you can get in a mentally better product. Well I think that's clear and I am smelling this and it smells. I have to say really good beer always looks good to me even if I'm not the world's biggest beer drinker. But I'm taking a swig you know hey it's kind of like yeah it is better. There's a lot of flavor from it we're using it. I think it's three different malts plus oats and oaks and we and you know it's one of these things you were. You don't have to be afraid anymore. Creating bitterness and flavors and things like that. And what Clay was saying is totally true. We spent many years sort of banging our heads against the wall making beers that we like but nobody else did. And now people have come around and it's it's it's it's the best feeling in the world having

been in this in this business for most 20 years that there's no you can't look across the room and and to find a beer drinker anymore used to be that day now every every time we do a tasting it's every segment of of the of the audience for beer now. MARTIN Let's get you into the conversation. What about competing with the big guys. I mean I've just said and Clay's agree that in certain markets there are more there's more availability of these craft brews. Yeah that's definitely true but I think what we found is that we don't need to compete which is really great. So we can be as crazy and creative as we like and because that core of people is really into creative. They're willing to pick something out that looks quicky. They're willing to take a risk they're willing to just go all out and say OK this guy gets up at 1:30 in the morning doesn't have his own brewery enjoys his own labels but hey the beer might be good. So it really works it really works in our favor I think you know I have you know. Good play. Oh no I was just going to say I mean one of the things that's really telling about how effective craft the

craft sector has been is that they're not compromising on quality to compete. But you see the big breweries are now introducing some craft style beers with their you know just the conventional beers with nicer labels or where actually some of them are really doing some interesting things with stout and with these European styles that have been imported over the last decade. This I think is a real sign that these big companies either recognize that you know American consumer taste is changing or that you know there is that that they can they see something of a threat I guess you call it from the craft market. Well I want to quote one of your articles Clay you say the Bud Light market is down five point three percent and the Miller Light 7.5 that's huge for your market. I mean they've got to be feeling managers and understand that people are looking around for something else. And I have to say in my own no knowledge whatsoever of Kraft bro I went to my

supermarket just my regular supermarket and I said I'm supposed to bring some pale ale. And the guy opened up the cab the fridge read a case and there were three dozen of them and there was fabulous. I just thought wow it's a whole different world out here Martha. Now for you guys to compete. Absolutely and for us we come very much where we're very much influenced by your very quick E.B. is being made in Europe by people with tiny tiny breweries for very limited market over there and over here there's all these people who are just dying to try new things and we can do whatever we like which is so amazing as creative people to be able to come out with whatever we want to do. Now what about the marketing being a key element of moving this kind of beer because it's hip to like Kraft brews right now right. It's pretty hip. I think it's pretty hip. And you can get pretty pretty things where you guys are growing their own labels that are very homegrown put it we do everything on a kitchen table and you know I'm thinking most of the businesses would probably wouldn't be taken very seriously. But out there in the craft beer market but it was a big drinkers in

America I think not necessarily taken seriously but certainly embraced. OK very good. OK so what does that mean. If you've given the statistics about what a craft by size is supposed to mean. But if we think about craft breweries by attitude Clay does that include Sam Adams which is large but still some people think of that's right here in Boston as a craft brewery. Well I think so I mean I think that what Sam has done in of course but this is a challenge that they're facing as they become They're actually about to pass that 2 million mark. And that's a whole other question for the birds association to figure out. But because they still do identify as a craft brewer and they they don't you know by the numbers make make that much beer compared to the big guys but what I think does also sort of justify them as being a crafter is that them still focus a lot of their effort on interesting innovative beers. You know I don't think it's fair to condemn them

for their success. They still they make their flagship products but they also make some really interesting triple box and they have a line of. The spirit utopia which is next meeting the rare and I've been able to try it but but it is one of those things that the real beer nerds go out and try to dig up. So I think they they still have their their nose in the craft world and I think they're still doing a good job of identifying with that even though they are in a lot of other ways big guy. OK Dan has just poured the second beer that he brought from his fury what tell me what this is. Yes so this is American darling it's one of our summer seasonals. It's sort of the beer that your grandfather drank but we're doing our own version of it 7 percent alcohol. We used a German malt Ultraman hops from the howler to our region which can cook over it Sam Samuel Adams likes a lot as well. Six weeks in the ferment are three different strains and it's it's only filtered beers are only lager.

And it's just delicious and Multi the hops at the beginning as well. OK that was Dan pocket. He and Martha his wife are founders of pretty things brewery in Cambridge and we're also speaking with clay risin who's a New York based editor and writer and a liquor and beer blogger for The Atlantic Monthly. Now when I mention those numbers earlier Clay about about and I've tasted the second beer and it's tastes to me. What should we be getting out of this BIA that I didn't get in the first one. Oh I'm sorry. Oh you know I was. I'm curious to hear what you have to say. Well I'm still and still digesting the first one but I mean I just poured the American darling one thing I really like about not only this beer but a lot of breweries like pretty things right now and they're not afraid to go back to the lager style which has been something ales are easier to make and traditionally of the craft world was focused on making

ale and not only the easier to make but they're different. Most people most of the big beers are our loggers and they're light lagers. They don't have a lot of flavor. But recently you've seen you know a lot of a lot of breweries with the confidence to say you know what I'm going to go back to that style I'm going to take on the more subtle flavors that you can get out of the lager. And in the snow especially in the summer I mean this is what people like to drink in the summers. Let me just take a sip. OK. I mean it's it's you know it's got a little flowery it's a little there's some lemon zest in there you don't have a lot of malt but but you don't have too many hops it's not really bitter. It's just a very nice balanced light and flavor beer and I can drink this all afternoon. You know I should point out that there are some places including right here at the Boston Wine School Believe it or not where they're doing beer tastings pairing beers with food because of the kind of detailed precise work that you guys are doing. Martha in

your craft breweries I wonder if you think this is part of the whole local food movement. It's a huge part of the local food movement and we've definitely benefited from it and we love doing it and as we debated as well we've soliciting Greetings from just a full radius which proves difficult. What do you say he should get. So yeah it's a wonderful community to be part of and it's really paid for us being a very homegrown very local product. Now Dan do you think that with Kraft bros that American beer makers have finally gotten away from their inferiority complex about your beer. I think so. I think that was a good complex to have it really drove us for so many decades and now we're letting that you know we're watching the Danes and the Dutch sort of chased us for the first time ever so it's kind of fun and we're all playing off each other it's a much smaller world beer wise than it used to be. Clay one of the trends coming up now we've established that Kraft are going to move out to communities perhaps where they are not now. There's more interest in it but what next.

Well I mean like I said I think you'll see all these things that come from having more confident one taking on longer styles and taking on what the big guys used to do and producing better products on their on their grounds. You know I think this is and like I said before American darling that's a great beer and that should be out there every time someone wants a bud. This should be the beer that they're someone's responsible friend. No I have this instead. Hold on I have to do all that you know. OK. Sorry about that. But but you know a lot of people are doing that and a lot of people are taking on this style. You know right now big beers are really popular. If you look at the rankings on you know different beer websites there it's all about these imperial stouts and you know what's the thing that they they're always a doing the commercial with the guy crying about the boat. Yeah. But but I think you know also I think you know you might see a walk back from that

and you might see people starting to say well you know big beers are great lots of flavor is great but I want to I want some more subtlety in my beer I want to look for something that doesn't knock me over the head that I can drink for several beers worth instead of just you know one and done. I think you'll see that I think you'll also see some on the flip side some really crazy ingredients. One thing that's popular right now with some breweries is what's called an oyster stout and it's basically stout with either oysters or oyster shells to give kind of a. A Salty almost not really salty briny subtle brine flavor to it that that you'll see some other things kind of like I can't even imagine what else you could brew anything along with the beer. And that's going to change the flavor. Then what's up next for pretty things brewery What's your next OK. Well we're actually coming out with a first properly happy beer which is going to have taken us two years. So it shows that we're doing something slightly different.

And also we do this historical series where we recreate beers from the original brew sheets from the past working on one from London and one thousand no one I should say that your beers are in all the fancy places in Boston mentioned if you're here why you're here. Eastern Standard hungry mother in Cambridge brings in a list like I said this b o y o b is not Budweiser as we've been talking about craft breweries with clay rise in a New York based editor and writer and a liquor and beer blogger for The Atlantic Monthly and Dan and Martha cat founders of pretty things brewery in Cambridge have a brewski on them. Thank you all for joining us. Thank you think oh I thank you. This is the Calla Crossley Show today's program was engineered by Allen Madison produced by Chelsea Murphy and a white knuckle be an Abby Ruzicka our intern is lucky still and we are a production of WGBH radio bus and NPR station for news and culture.