Poetry from M.I.T.; John Ciardi

Would you first restate your official position as the executive director. Is there segregation in the Boston school. I am exactly secretary WCP. The question of de facto segregation in the Boston public schools is one that we have documented. First let's look at just slightly geisha. Is there segregation and I want to talk about it. The factors via now you you're trying to get a specific definition I'm not sure what you're trying to get. So explain it more. Well I'm asking you is there segregation there is segregation now where we go from there. Where do we go from here. A question I asked many times by Negroes in the United States this time the question is asked in Boston by the executive secretary of the Boston NWA Sepi Tom Atkins denied a special report. Stay out for freedom day Tuesday June 18th 1963 Boston Massachusetts. Tomorrow 6000 Negro students are expected not to

attend school. Why this program we'll explore this question and reaction to this stay out for freedom day program. Now Al wholesome WGBH FM talks further with Tom Atkins executive secretary of the Boston NWC. What kind of segregation is that. The segregation is segregation that is based. That is a result primarily of housing patterns. And this we recognize. We have said to the school committee segregation exists it the fact it is a result of housing patterns is another problem. The fact that it exists is the school committee's problem and our problem. Now we're living up to responsibility of recognizing the situation as it exists. De facto This is what we have said. Now we are asking the school committee to live up to their part of the responsibility that is to work with this problem toward a solution. Do you feel the school committee has worked with you with all constructively.

Without question the school committee has met with us we virtually all day Saturday virtually all day Sunday. The Education Committee of the WCP was in session closed session with the school committee and the school committee out of the 14 proposal submitted to it accepted 12 of them. This indicates a great deal of good faith on their part. We're not accusing the school committee of bad faith. We are saying to the school committee the good faith shown so far is not enough. This is what we have said and we are saying this is why tomorrow there will be a stay out. Would you call this a boycott yourself. I would know you might. I call it a stay out. A boycott is a term that more normally is used for economic employment procedures buying etc.. This clearly doesn't fall of that category and I'm boycotting the schools are just not going. There's been an indication that we some legal repercussions. The parents that keep their children away from public schools could be fined $50. But do you plan to do if

this isn't forced. The first instance the matter you're referring to was a statement made by Judge Connally and his statement referred to some five hundred youngsters who were under the jurisdiction of his juvenile court. We are saying to the parents of those youngsters and those youngsters go to school. We are not encouraging them not to go to school. The other parents and the other students involved are not covered by this injunction and we are saying to them don't go to school. And as far as we're concerned there's no legal problem involved. They will be if they're not at school the 500 then they have placed themselves in a position counter to a court decision. As for the parents outside of this five hundred and the children outside this 500 if they don't go to school they'll be kind of absent. And it's the provision for which we've made we've made arrangements. Originally it was announced that some 14000 Negro students would not attend school. That number has

been lowered I think you say now 500 is that correct. No that is not correct Originally it was not said 14000 it originally was said that of the school children in Boston some 14000 a negro this century this include all this includes all levels from the elementary going to guard all the way up to high school. Now of this 14000 approximately 5000 are in junior and high school junior high school and high school. We have not included the Elementary and lower grades. And this program for tomorrow. And this is why the figure has dwindled and has joined or not because our plans have changed but because the original reports on this have been faulty and inaccurate. We've spoken with some people who have said that this is essentially an adult problem or at least a problem that has to be handled by dogs and that under this quote boycott proposal you're taking advantage of children. What is your reaction to our reaction is it for some hundred fifty years 200 years 300 years children have been taken advantage of along with their parents.

The problem that with the problems that we are facing today in America and in Boston are problems the children of today will face tomorrow as adults and it's only a question of time when are they going to face them. We're not asking the children to take the problems of their of their fathers and mothers. We're asking the fathers and mothers of the children all to take part in this because this is the way it's going to be most effectively done. How could this boy could have been avoided what should the school committee have decided to do to please you. Well for that statement we have to give a little background. There were 14 proposals submitted to the school committee of these 14 12 have been accepted. One is in the Twilight Zone and the fourteenth one the one that we consider most important has been flatly denied. The fourteen point is briefly one of those 12 happened because it was a general question what a. 14 points if you like me to enumerate them. Yes I would. I will start with point number one which is a major bone of contention. It reads as follows an immediate public acknowledgement

of the existence of de facto segregation of the Boston school system. This has not been agreed to by the school committee. Number two an immediate review of the open enrollment plan to allow transfers without present limitations. This plan to be put into operation by school opening in September. This has been agreed to by the school committee in-service training program for principals and teachers in the area of human relations. This has been agreed to by the school committee. The establishing of elitism between the school administration and colleges so the training programs may be set up for prospective teachers in urban communities. This has been agreed to by the school committee. The assignment of permanent teachers to Grades 1 2 3 1 through 3 and the reduction of these classes to 25. This is being looked into by the school committee. The use of books and other visual aids that include illustrations of people of all races. This is being looked into by the school committee. The establishment of a concentrated developmental reading program in a school in grades 1 through 8. This is being looked into by the school committee. The expansion of the school adjustment counselor program in a

congested Negro school districts. This is the scope the school committee is just as great to do. 9 The expansion of the vocational guidance program to include grade 7 and the selection of qualified unbiased counselors. This school committee is looking into. 10 The elimination of discrimination in the hiring and the assigning of teachers. This is a school committee is looking into the 11 investigation into reasons as to why Boston has no Negro principal. This is a school committee is looking into a review of the system of intelligence testing. This is a school committee is doing 13 then dot the adoption in toto of the sergeant report. That section of it there refers to Roxbury in North Dorchester. This is a school committee is looking into 14. We seek the right to discuss the selection of a new superintendent and detail with Dr. Height who has been appointed as adviser to the school committee. This is a twilight area. This is a school committee the details on this have not yet been worked out the school committee is willing to work with our education committee and to set up some procedure whereby. We can have

access to Dr. Height. Now the crux of the matter is point number one when you repeat an immediate public acknowledgement of the existence of de facto segregation in the Boston school system the school committee feels this it cannot do. Various reasons have been given for this. I will not attempt to enumerate their reasoning. Our position is that if they cannot admit and recognize the existence of the problem we're not at all convinced that the solutions they put into effect are going to be worthwhile. And this is why Tamar was taking place. What do you think will occur after tomorrow. Will there be more meetings with the school committee. Will there be more boycotts. What do you expect. Well first let me make a general statement. There will be as much as is necessary to get the results that we're demanding. Specifically there will be more meetings with the school committee. Negotiations will continue. We are willing to negotiate some of these things will take time to do but

we're not going to wait very long because there has been time allotted and we feel that to some extent the School Committee officials past and present have not fully met this problem have not fully accepted the responsibility for an effective solution to it. So we will be meeting with the school committee we will be negotiating with them. If further demonstrations are necessary there will be further demonstrations. Could you give any reason explaining why Boston was chosen for this particular plan of action. Well I can give one reason which is so overpowering that any other reasons are necessary and that is this is Boston. This is a Boston end up place AP. The people taking part in tomorrow's demonstrations are Boston people. We're not concerned about what Philadelphia is doing what Detroit is doing Chicago Boston Birmingham and Tuscaloosa. We live in Boston and we're concerned about Boston. The other cities are taking care of themselves. Is there any particular reason why Boston comes up on top of the list.

Why is this kind of action happening here at all happening if you're happening as you're from you're what you're asking in fact is whether or not this is part of a concerted plan across the country it is not part of a concerted plan across the country it is it is part and parcel of a concerted mood across the country the mood is impatience the mood is a great unwillingness to wait much longer. Now this is not a program that has been dictated from New York or Chicago or anywhere else this is a program that was initiated in Boston and will be executed in Boston. Now what happens in Chicago New York or any of the other cities depends upon the efficiency and the commitment of the people in these other cities. We're going to go through with this and what they do depends upon them. Are you getting any support from the national NAACP. We have had total support. We have had total support the International Office has been completely aware of the research done by our Education Committee. They have been completely apprised of the planned stay out tomorrow and

they are in complete agreement with it. Have you had any reaction from the new group parents who are opposed. Oh certainly. Any time a controversial action is taken or an action action is taken there will be dissents. There will be division but the division is on the division took place primarily prior to the decision. Tomorrow we expect to see a virtually United Negro community participating in this school stay out. There will be some children going to school there will be some parents who are opposed to it to these parents we say this is your right. We respect your right we don't agree with your decision. If you're if you want your children to go to school send them. We're saying don't send them. It's really a chance that this might cause a division among negro groups from. Division so they actually are splintered. Sure I understand your question.

The groups that have supported the education efforts the efforts of the Education Committee are not divided. The steering committee which is planning the action for tomorrow represents several groups one of which is in the place they paid they as to whether or not this is going to cause further division between these groups. I would say no. I would say this is going to bring these groups together more. This is going to further unite the Negro community and the various civil rights organizations. But behind proposals for action immediate action. What are the other groups the other groups that are participating. If you attended the Tuesday night meeting with the school committee you would have heard you would have seen a panorama of groups we had represented some labor We had representatives from teachers unions We had representatives from the various other civil rights groups core the citizens for human rights a group to stage the Boston rally the

Boston Action Group. We had represented from the Jewish Labor Council. I'm not going to tend to name all the groups that were there. But this is a concerted action and it's a decision that was reluctantly taken to have the stay out. The one which we feel is a last resort we just we are not convinced that the dialogue is complete. We feel that the communications have broken down that the language we are talking has not been completely comprehended by the school committee officials. And we're just going to try to say in a different way. Do you feel that this movement is being opposed by older people. There's been some indication that this is a young man's a young woman's actions. In other words that it's sort of immature. Let me speak to both of the questions you raised in reverse order the compilation of information the facts that was

presented to them that were presented to the school committee on Tuesday last took some seven months to garner. These are guarded carefully. They were made in public. The statements are on record if they're reliable including the statements we stand we stand liable for this. Then WCP is not an organization committed to making your responsible statements. It has existed for some 50 years. It's gone to Supreme Court some forty seven times and come back successful forty five the Boston branch is existed for some 50 years. We know what we're doing and we're concerned about what the situation is here in Boston. Now as to whether or not this is an immature action the leadership and the. Gathering information Mrs Ruth backs and who is the chairman of the end of the Education Committee is a mother of three children. She has been herself actively concern and education for some 15 years which is which is included running for the school committee. She has served in a place they paid during this during this tenure. The other members of her committee include responsible elder citizens. If you

want to call them that the people planning the they stay out tomorrow are responsible people we have ministers involved we have people involved who are paid social workers. It involves all elements of the community. This is not an age question. This is an age old problem and it's one that we're not going to have exist very much longer. But the question as to how the solution is going to be affected and the actions that are being taken today and tomorrow these actions are being taken every irregardless of age. Do you feel that you've gotten fair press coverage on this. Well that's so that's always a loaded question. I have I have personally seen articles that have appeared in the press that I thought were that I thought were distorted. I refer specifically to an article that report that appeared yesterday on the record American that the caption of which was somewhat misleading.

The article referred to threats that have been made on some white students by some Negro students somewhere some time. The implication of the headlines was that they stay out tomorrow would involve mass threats. I consider this a responsible reporting. There have been other articles that have been here in their cover with in accuracies but in general the press has been very responsive and we have been very pleased with the coverage of President giving us the press the radio the television. Have you made any contacts with law enforcement people anticipating possibly some more serious trouble. There will be a policeman stationed at all of this. All of the Freedom centers the places where the students will be congregating. There will be members of the Steering Committee and members of our as ations station at the various schools involved and adult and attend a student from the school and the school itself involved to make sure that students who do not participate do not meet reprisals. We're not in this. We're not in this for

fun. This is something serious and we recognize the seriousness of the situation and we're doing all we can to prevent an inflammatory situation from becoming even worse. Is there any indication that it might become worse tomorrow. There's indication that the thing is going to go up perfectly as planned and there's going to be no violence. But there are going to be no reprisals. But what you're asking is are is it possible that there will be some violence certainly as possible as possible every other way. We don't anticipate any of the plans we have made have been made to the best of our ability to so as to preclude any violence. And the students will be taking part in the programs that we have set up will be closely supervised and will be at all times under the supervision of responsible adults. What has the school committee told you it will do tomorrow. The school committee as you know has urged all of all students to go to school. We have urged them not to go to school so therefore we had a direct confrontation here. The school committee has said that students who do not

go to school will be kind of absent but there will be no reprisals made against the students. There were some indication that Attorney General Brooks might be brought in to make some kind of an official ruling. Can you explain that. Sure. Attorney General Brooke met last week and with members of the community. This is an unofficial meeting. It had no official weight. The representatives there were not officially representing anything. They were people who were concerned as he was concerned. They met and I talked about this and they the decision conclusion reached by the attorney general was that the the proposals being submitted were reasonable proposals and that if these proposals were not met then the action plan for Tuesday was a reasonable action. This is what the attorney general decided. Do you think the attorney general might be called in to rule on whether students are violating the law and whether parents are violating the possibility exists yes. And then what would happen. I haven't the slightest idea. Tom Atkins executive secretary of the Boston chapter for the National Association for the

Advancement of Colored People talking with Holsten of WGBH FM. We are some national leaders of Negro organizations for their reaction to the events in Boston. Tom Connelly spoke this afternoon with the Gordon Carey head of the program department for the Congress on Racial Equality. I'm speaking with Mr. Gordon Carey. He's head of the program department score. Mr. Carey this is not your activity this activity that is going on in Boston but many of the same reason. Now it's for the NAACP. Or how do you feel about these demonstrations. Of course with the problem emanating from the north and we think that the fact those school segregation really one of the pressing areas. It seems to me from what I know of the proposed protests in Boston it's going to be a more meaningful one. Anything that. Or can

this thing mall support we gladly offer. Let me say one more thing and that is that we feel that the problem with the right is becoming more and more a national one and that and that really substantial progress is made in our large northern cities that we're lacking at a very very bad situation and that the kind of turmoil that level and in the south right now may engulf cities like Boston and New York as well. And sacramental we think that. Such as Boston should really take steps to try to end whatever. The fact of segregation they have in the schools as well as of course in the employment and housing. Tom Connolly speaking with Gordon Kerry head of the programme department for corps. Next we spoke with Roy Wilkins executive secretary of the National NWC.

How do you feel about this demonstration. Welcome to the National Office of the NWT is very happy to lend encouragement to the Boston chapter to the parent student than people generally apart from intelligent and forceful campaign to eliminate the facto segregation in the schools. We regard this problem as one of the principal ones in the north one that has handicapped our children in the past and we feel that we ought to do everything possible to root it out. We realize that not a crude and overt as to get them in the south but nevertheless in Boston of all places there are they know of a range of administrative procedures. Tradition or practice that would perpetuate they do not have access to the best possible schooling to any child because of his

race and color. I am happy to see the Boston Branch tackling this broad way and with a desire of informing the how to go about it and I would never think that. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Tom Connolly speaking with Gordon Carey head of the program department at the Congress on Racial Equality. We would hope that that if there are any demonstrations they might and would be of a very. Simple nature. Can you tell me what the church has done specifically about this concerning the statement which is open while they get a statement has been read in the pulpits throughout our New England said that we have some congregation that our integrated

congregation there has never been an occasion to my knowledge where a person not of white skin has made application for membership or that membership has not been granted yet the prospect of members has fulfilled all the qualifications for a membership. Day the Lutheran Church is not the only church to. Come out with this particular attitude. Is there any religious organization promoting unity not an organized effort. You know all in all I think there are sufficient organization that are promoting their sin they know that they have they they asked for my approval of the house. They are those who have

adopted a statement similar to ours are adopted an attitude similar to ours. If you had any response from your congregations the state we've had response from from a number of the pastors who are very much in agreement agreement with the statement of course the majority of the pope that stay the statement read can image. The pope yesterday and we haven't had time to ourselves I doubt if there will be much assessment to be done. You see the problem the problem we feel in our in our Senate here in this section of the country is not one of integration of congregation the real problem lies in housing and the acceptance of the nonwhite per

person and two neighbor on this problem. Tom Connolly talking with New England Sino president the Reverend Dr. Carl under here in Boston some opposing points of view. The point of view of Boston Negro leader Mrs. Gladys homes is homes first of all would you give us your reaction to this proposed boycott that's scheduled to take place tomorrow. Is the boycott is concerned I didn't approve of it because children should not be brought into the situation. That's about it. It's training them in my estimation to break the law of the law as the children belong in school certain days and certain hours for pay. If the parents and the ADD else feel that they want to discuss this problem it should be kept about the childrens level. The children belong in school and they have

to tender an age to feel that they can fly the law. Do you think the NAACP is wrong then in calling for this boycott. I'm not concerned with it far as I personally can concerned. I don't approve and I haven't been attending their meetings I don't know. I think their idea is they want a better situation. Our situation is Dread you know of it and I think their idea is that they want to better it and bring the condition to a head so that people know. Therefore I'm not criticizing them having anything to say on that. Had I been at the meetings and known you see that I could do that for my personal opinion. I don't approve of it. If you feel that there is segregation though. Well the segregation is not de facto like they said in my estimation.

In the days when we went to school I can give you an idea of my first school to graduate with a high school down on him and St.. You know Hammond and rocks Berkeley Square down me go down Tremont Street several blocks and in my graduating picture we were looking at it the other day when we had to move. I think there were 50 graduates and in those 50 I think of just about four or five of us. You see you have a population and complexity change you go down there now. And I think it's our group for the simple reason. As a group we made a mistake. All of us congregating in one area yesterday and the Senate did come about that we saw one in the school but it wasn't a sitting spot. You say that was your mistake of the group that we are you know the group of our group colored people they all moved into the one

area and you feel that it was actually. But had to happen it just happened don't you. Because you had what you would think could you have prevented that yourself as a group. Well if they moved around in different areas but naturally they want to find their friends and their families. For instance one family move into a stream and your friend comes and sees how nice it is and they are moving so that it came about in that way. Now when the city says a child must go to school in his neighborhood that slower go in your neighborhood and if out of medical You are unintentionally the neighborhood has become are one group of people and you one in the city. Further says if you're not satisfied with your neighborhood school you may send your

child to any area. If you can pay the transportation you've heard that yourselves and a lot of parents have done that they didn't like who was calling other schools and they sent their children out of Brighton park Jamaica Plain. Did he find much difficulty in getting your children amid a public school. Every parent I found just went and brought the credentials for a child and they took them. I never came across any situation where they would refuse to. They couldn't they couldn't because the state there's no believe in segregation according to groups. And you feel there's no need for this boycott. Well the people who are supporting the boycott are as I said before I feel. That it should be brought to the public because there is there is a serious point in the problem

because Africa and there have been a lot of our schools that are really substandard and yet I think the city is trying to. Remedy the fact that taking this hurly school down here on Springfield Street it was a very ramshackle building. Maryland's graduated from there when he was a boy. Four stories brick and the city has put up. I think it was sixty two. One of the most beautiful schools in the city. It comes from a million six hundred thousand dollars and it's mostly colored children. The population is mostly colored it's out there and you go in man it's one of the most beautiful buildings in the city. The walls of us the chairs for the little folks fit around them nicely. You wouldn't want a better school. And I feel there that's what they intend to do eventually

that if the school is substandard as soon as they can get the money in the contracts they expect to remedy the fact now that's from my personal vision. And I teach down there this religious education. Do you find that there's any difference in the quality of the teachers not speaking about the technical facilities but how about the teachers. Well the little contact I have made with them the majority want to get their children up to par in any group will be people who are not particularly concerned. But in the eye contact or no contact with them they seem to want to be if you will just don't care. We'll leave it like that but I don't know the Boston School Committee this morning said that those parents that keep their children away from school tomorrow will be breaking the law as you said that these parents may be fined

$50. Well that's what the judge said Janetta can only step there. It's in the paper it said. Now do you think this can be enforceable. The following. Yes if it's written on the box. And they want to carry it there. I don't know but you know something I know we took a vote in our church yesterday. Charles Street Church up here at their LNP 11 Warren Street elm the other. That's right Warren. It's Charles Street because what used to be down in the West End and Charles in Mount Vernon. And when we moved up here we kept the name and the majority of the parents were against the boycott. The minority was very small but those who felt that you should be there know that so I can say from my personal view I think I feel that certain facts should be aired.

And I think that's what the NAACP have in mind I think from reading the newspapers from listening to radio and watching television. We get the idea that there are very few Negro leaders very few negroes in general parents of the man in the street who are not in support of this boycott. Do you think this is movement my interpretation is correct. Other newspapers apparently one sided here are all the mass media one sided. The majority of the parents are in favor of the boycott. That's correct. From what I've read and seen and heard but my particular group we're not I don't know what to tell them except what I read in the papers I don't know what they're doing but no particular group last week did you hear any of the children's reaction to the proposed boycott. Well of course it's Junior High School children and

they have to have their parent's written consent and the children just shrug their shoulders the people I've met. I don't think they're particularly interested in anyway. If their parents say stay home I imagine they will step in if their parents say go go. I have been through we've had a closing exercise our graduation exercises. We've just finished a annual conference we Methodists and I was in there. We had a missionary meeting Saturday. I haven't been able to go out in the street and find out what they think but that's my personal from contact there can be improvement in the physical setup. But I feel the city is trying to do there. They can be much physical set. But as far as this is concerned maybe the leaders feel that's the way to get it before the public of

what they're suffering because there is a lot of suffering in many ways. So I have to say that I don't know what they're thinking. I just have to give my e-mail or you'll excuse me for looking at this. But my close from Radcliffe celebrated its 50th anniversary last week and I wasn't able to go. So they have sent me a card with greetings from all the members in the class certainly and I get to look at it. I don't mean to be anything. So that's what I think. There's no you know family is the thing we don't approve of it because of the police because it would be bringing children into an area where they don't belong and it would be against the law. As this judge has said Judge coming to keep children out of school and the ME the adults and the leaders should get together with the community and

I know there are ways that can be done. With an opposing opposing point of view that was Miss Gladys Holmes the supervisor of the Boston religious release time program sponsored by the Boston Council of Churches and a former grade school and college instructor herself. This afternoon we also recorded the comments of several junior and senior high we can tell you first of all what is your reaction to this plan to boycott tomorrow. I think it is the only way that we can show that we're all interested in the schools of Boston. And many of the. New York communities and how. We could help to. Maintain. A get up to a high standard. What do you yourself plan to do tomorrow. I'd say no school. Would you stay at home or would you go somewhere else. Cut to the same outsources and. There's something

there for me because you know what you know to the program. Well I was mainly to get over the idea with says about. You know I think there are a lot of kids stayed out of school be there. Do you feel yourself. If there is segregation in the Boston schools. Yes to him you know the American Negro communities. They have second. Grade books. And not enough material that is needed to get a high stake. In their. Academics. To be speaking. You think there are poor teachers in your school then another school. Massacre. I don't know so much about my school and other schools I think they're. Not. All these other people around you are going to be. Away from the school system mainly for the at high school. And the junior high school. He studied so you're not going to school while you're in Germany. Why aren't you going to school.

Tell me not to go. Why did she tell you not to go. I don't know she said to me not the school Tuesday. You think that this is a good thing for you not to do what no. One like him or she was healthy reclusive. And again this is just playing out for me because it's the end of the year that I didn't write any of the others if you're not going to speak to. Me. Why aren't you going tonight. And not just all to death death to that to the reason why I'm there and they have and it's a meaning that's the same access to send so they could get over that idea of to some of the younger people whether or not a dentist is going to tend to school comments by several students recorded at a Roxbury playground late this afternoon. Now the comments of a Boston Negro community leader the Reverend Estee cleric curtain. As a Negro community leader Reverend curtain What is your reaction to the boycott of Boston school

schedule for tomorrow. I'm opposed to it. I feel that the children should not need your sister to settle matters that wholly concerned adults for example because of their time dared say they themselves cannot express rational opinions on these contra controversial matters. I don't feel that they should be used there. Human beings are not things of shuttles that you may choose to. But lose at your own convenience it is these are human beings if your existence. And as I said these parents should

settle these issues themselves. And then there is another point of view oh by taking the children out of school it's definitely breaking the law if it's contrary to the law of the law and you feel that there's anything wrong with the schools in Boston. What I do complain and I feel that the colored people are justified in making a complaint for segregation is concerned. Is there segregation there is there is some variation. How serious is it. Give us an example. Well it is it is a serious thing. When you are trying to project the idea that people should all develop. Point of view of where they may live together.

Work together or go to church together and. Get along together. American citizens. Die and it is not consistent with that point of view and having them go to school separately for example high school are primarily for white children. Another school for colored children. If if you if you want these. We will if we want to achieve this so-called integration. People then you should begin at the lower level begin with the children. Especially in education. But then isn't that the reason why the NAACP for example has called for this point cut to assure that there is this integration at the lower level and that in turn there will be integration at all

levels. Now if that is the point of the ad or point of view of the NAACP I go along with it. But I fear that the approach should be made by the I doubt horribly by the adults without taking the children out of school it is a very serious thing to take children out of school. 7 Can you think the school boycott will accomplish anything constructive. Well the only thing that I I would say that it is doing it is if there is if if there's anything beneath the surface it is being brought above the surface now because the they named it the this or area of. Of school problems of the meanies being discussed or it's just a good man everybody's talking about it.

That is about the only thing I can say is I mean it's any good that it's doing. Why have so few Negro leaders spoken out in opposition to the boycott. There are just so few opposed to it or are they just not willing to speak. Well I'm not I am not I'm not clear on that or why I so many I when I feel that perhaps this approach that you're making WGBH FM is making does not mean. This kind of approach is not being projected among the. Leaders. I don't I think it's all reasonable to expect that the leader. Would voluntarily come to your station and ask to speak. I think I really commend. WTS for going out into the

community and sort of begin to begin winding him giving up. The Five. Of them to teach you that there are many many people who are opposed. Oh yes yes yes. I mean action do you get from your church goers. Well. First we live near a small group. But I feel sure that. Knowing you know and knowing how they think. Their leaders are not in favor of it. I'm speaking about my church. Unlike my church I'm not speaking for what I mean the church organization. I'm not speaking from notes and my point of view. I mean does not reflect. The point of view of my bishop. Have you heard from many parents who are going to keep their children either at home or have them go to the public school. In any case tomorrow what do you think that most of the students will will stay and go to the St. Marks social center as requested.

I know I can't answer that. I mean actually I did. I talked to one young man and he reminded me that I am of another generation. But he said that he would. He had four children and he would see that they stay home. But I feel that I am on the right track because one of the I do one of the judges of the juvenile court has stated that. Those parents who keep their children at home will be prosecuted. And I think they're subject to you know the dollar fine if we have a fine and also a jail term. Do you think this would actually be carried out. Well I don't think so because I don't think it would be actually it would be carried out. But I think they the children I mean the parks should be conscious of that fart. And if if if they if it if what they do will be

outside of the law. Where children I mean are involved they should try to be within the law. And if by being within the law on the side of the law called for them to send the children to school they should do so. The Boston School Committee this morning called for action by Attorney General Brooke. Do you think this is an unwise move on their part. Well if if the attorney general has jurisdiction to rule on this matter I would I would say so. But if it is just appealing I mean to his good graces. To do it. I feel that it is unfair to the attorney general because it's an I am courting and courting. Doctor who had heard something like that and he said Well don't try

me trying to put him on the spot when I feel that it would be placing him in an on comfortable position either. I feel that as attorney general he should only be called upon to rule should he should be called upon for the four hour rulings that are well within his authority. However your sentiment not nothing sentimental. If he does make an official ruling I think it's conceivable that he could rule that parents that kept their children away from the public schools were breaking the law. Then what do you think the reaction would be. Well I think I would I would admire his courage. I feel that the parents should listen to him. Comments by Boston Negro community leader the Reverend Estee Claire curtain of Roxbury. We also spoke with two leaders who are directly involved with tomorrow's stay out for freedom day

program. The Reverend James Braden a minister of the St. James Episcopal Church of Boston and Noll Day director of St. Mark's social science or where the negro peoples are to meet tomorrow morning. First I want to ask you. There's segregation in schools. Well it's very obvious to anyone who looks around. There is segregation in the Boston school. It's certainly clear that there is segregation throughout the whole of our society and the public joined me in that situation. Well clearly from a situation in our country today now dissing the headlines and pages and pages to write reporting it's obvious that there is no place in our society where this is not a burning issue. And I would like to ask why are you holding the so-called boycott tomorrow

and now. God help the situation as you see it. The freedoms stay out. We prefer to call it is an attempt to communicate to the Boston committee and to the wider community in this in this situation. It is our belief that they have not yet really been honest about the seriousness of the situation and so we have chosen this way to allow those who voluntarily undertake to convince people to do so. In other words we have set up the structure that will allow people to voluntarily day away from public school and attend what we call Freedom Schools centers and the day where they will not be moving away from education but will be coming to be educated about the situation they are speaking out against

what is planned for tomorrow during Freedom Day. Well we have what we feel as an all star faculty college teachers retired teachers teachers from suburban areas where the schools have closed down and people are working and are monogram we have Thomas kind of Harvard. Sit a professor somewhere rather send someone to college professor Adelaide type of African studies set for us today and we have a number of other people on the ship that stuff coming. Freedom Center will have its own faculty the students say I will be involved in singing freedom songs they will hear lectures on history on our government work on citizenship on nonviolent theory of nonviolence and how it can be applied to different

situations and then we will break up into discussion the problems of discrimination how they are still going to be involved and active and various aspects of the freedom and what they can do to ensure that our educational facilities are better jobs and so we expect to really have a quite a comprehensive beginning at least for a program in learning I've been educated for citizen freedom. Now you said beginning. I take it that you plan to have more of these. Well yes we're planning to have others. The others were not on public schools where they might be in the evenings or on Saturdays and Sundays would be for students and there are now many people have said that they think it is unwise to urge children thank the laws of the state by staying away

from school. How do you justify this. In actual fact I think it's a serious legal question as to whether they are disobeying any mention has been made. For instance the judge's decision that hundred students under his charge should not attend school. We agree he has parental responsibility and he covered the 500. However the parents have been informed that the child may not remain away from school without a valid excuse. And we believe that the situation here in Boston the situation throughout the country and they're trying to give these children and valid excuse for being away day also. People have asked why Boston and why now we are in Boston. And the situation is

serious now. We were somewhere out today in America I think we would find the situation with a serious creative action on the part of responsible officials might not make the play action case the public officials have demonstrated that one area where the problem is not recognized and clarity and not fate. It's also in Boston because Boston as part of the problem American problem. We have what we write. WGBH newsman Ted mascot speaking with two leaders directly involved with tomorrow stay out for freedom day program. The Reverend James Braden a minister at the St. James Episcopal Church of Boston and Noel Day director of the St. Marks social center where the negro pupils are to meet tomorrow morning. Before we conclude this special

broadcast on the boycott scheduled for tomorrow in Boston a direct action program by Negro leaders to show their displeasure with what has been called segregation in the Boston schools. A late report received by WGBH that further meetings are scheduled tonight between school leaders and the end WCP apparently an attempt to avert the boycott tomorrow. We will bring you a further report tomorrow. There is segregation now where we go from there. Tom Atkins executive secretary of the ACP Boston.