WGBH Radio; The Callie Crossley Show

I'm Cally Crossley This is the Cali Crossley Show. We're talking about third party politics this hour today nine out of 10 Americans are aggravated with the state of politics. Nearly two thirds of the country wants an independent candidate to run for president. Could this frustration be what the nation needs to surface a credible third party candidate. In the past Millard Fillmore and Teddy Roosevelt tried to capitalize on their personal popularity and ran third party campaigns. Most recently Ross Perot and Ralph Nader used their frustration with the stablished and politics to run as third party candidates. In the end none of them came close to a meaningful victory this time around. Could a third party ticket offer alternatives to partisan politics. Or would it be a major distraction only helping to further debilitate the political process. Up next crashing the party. The pros and cons of a third ticket. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi saying a suicide bomber

has killed at least 55 people in the Afghan capital making the attack the single deadliest in Kabul in three years. Local authorities say the bomber blew himself up in the middle of a crowd of Shiite worshippers at a mosque as they were observing the religious festival known as a separate attack in the northern city of Mazar e Sharif today claimed four lives. American officials say the U.S. drone that went down in Iran over the weekend was on a surveillance mission for the CIA. NPR's Rachel Martin says the aircraft was a new generation stealth drone. It's called an arche 170 Sentinel and it's equipped with stealth technology that allow it to fly undetected. These newer drone models are highly classified. And Pentagon officials are worried that if the aircraft is now in Iranian hands that secret technology could be compromised. The Pentagon declined to comment but a U.S. official said the drone was unarmed and there are no signs it was shot down. Rachel Martin

NPR News Washington. Russian police are clashing with anti-Putin demonstrators who are staging a second day of protests over alleged vote fraud in Sunday's parliamentary elections. The Interfax News Agency says Boris Nemtsov a leader of the liberal opposition is among the activists who were detained today in a downtown Moscow Square. Yesterday thousands of Russians surprised authorities by staging one of the largest protests in years over alleged vote rigging in favor of Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and his party claims Putin's supporters strongly deny. In neighboring Lithuania U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said the widespread reports of voting fraud should be investigated. Clashes are also reported in Greece. Outside parliament activists are taking part in a march to commemorate three years since police fatally shot a teenager in central Athens. Inside parliament lawmakers are expected to pass a budget that will extend painful austerity measures into next year. Joanna kisses has more from Athens.

The budget includes no new austerity measures but says a severe recession will continue into 2012. Squeezed by wage and pension cuts many Greeks say they can't or won't pay an emergency property tax that's being collected through electricity bills. Nearly all Greeks oppose austerity measures which have sparked riots outside parliament. But European leaders say Greece must push forward with financial reforms in exchange for bailout loans or leave the Eurozone. This week the Standard Poor's rating agency placed 15 year old zone countries on notice for possible downgrades. For NPR News I'm Joanna Kaye casus in Athens. In the U.S. markets mixed with the Dow up 35 points to twelve thousand one hundred thirty three Nasdaq off 12 points at twenty six forty four. This is NPR News. Presidents and prime ministers from some African countries are appealing to the United Nations today for more aggressive action against global warming. NPR's Vicky Valentine explains

African island nations are predicted to see some of the most devastating effects of climate change. The global temperature rise is expected to wreak havoc on the world's climate system. Places like Mali in West Africa are expected to see both more droughts and more flash floods. The same goes for Southern Africa. Some small island nations in the Pacific could actually disappear under water. That's why these nations are at the climate talks in Durban South Africa. They're asking in part for the U.N. to get a multibillion dollar global fund working that fund would funnel money to developing nations to help them deal with climate change. Vicki Valentine NPR News Durban South Africa. The owner of the West Virginia coal mine where 29 miners died in an underground blast last year is agreeing to a nearly 210 million dollar settlement to compensate the victims families pay fines and upgrade safety standards. The historic agreement between federal authorities and the new owners of the Upper Big Branch Mine includes forty five and a half million dollars in criminal restitution to the miners families. Massey Energy was in charge

at the time of the blast in April 2010. Alpha Natural Resources has since acquired Massey an Illinois judge is hearing arguments in the sentencing phase of Rod Blagojevich his case. The former Illinois governor was convicted of trying to sell or trade the Senate seat vacated by President Obama. Sentencing is expected tomorrow. At last check on Wall Street the Dow is up 38 points to 12000 135 Lakshmi Singh NPR News. Support for NPR comes from the pajama Graham company offering matching holiday pj's for the entire family at pajama Graham dot com. Good afternoon I'm Cally Crossley pick a president not a party that's the slogan for Americans elect a new organization operating primarily on line whose goal is to get on the ballot in 50 states. The organization of Republicans Democrats and independents is pushing for an independent presidential ticket in 2012.

And with after just a few months of going public Americans Elect now has more than 100 chapters and more than two million signatures. The time is right. Its organizers say to break what they describe as the stranglehold on ballot access. Joining me to talk about democracy presidential politics and a third ticket candidate are Mark McKinnon and Tad Devine. Mark McKinnon is a Republican strategist who's worked with George W. Bush and John McCain. He is an adviser to Americans and Lech elect and is currently assurance Dean fellow at Harvard University. Tad Devine is a Democratic strategist and media consultant. He was a senior adviser to the L Gore and John Kerry presidential campaign. He's currently a fellow at the Institute of Politics at Harvard's JFK School of Government. Thank you both for joining us. Good to be with you. Thank you. Mark let me start with you the facts are that no third party candidate has ever been successful by that I mean winning but some of awfully close. What's happening at this moment that makes a lot of folks think not

just the Americans Elect organization by which you are consultant but but a lot of people think the time is right now in a way that hasn't been ever before. Yeah. The it's pretty dramatic when you look at the political environment and it's convenient for all of us who look at politics to try and find historical frames of reference to compare and contrast and sort of predict what's going to happen and the last time that was similar to this that we talk about a lot which is right for a third party candidate was 1902 when Ross Perot ran and for a while led that race and arguably had run a little different kind of campaign might have won it. So I went back and looked at that two to really see just how close the parallels really are and the reality is they're not close at all it's so much worse today than it was in 92. It's really jaw dropping the Gallup polling back then was something like 53 percent of the country thought the country is on the right track 47 thought it was on the wrong

track. And today it's 81 percent on the wrong track 19 on the right track so the swing is 45 percent worse so you look at those kind of numbers and you say there's never been a more ripe time for a fork for a third party candidacy and all the other kind of evidence we look and see when you talk to voters and look at their Roge and trust in government trust in the Democratic and Republican Party trust in institutions. So in my view there's never been a better time in our America in American history in politics for this kind of a candidacy. Speaking of Ross Perot since you brought him up let's hear him. This is this is Ross Perot back in 1900 during his run for the president on an independent ticket. Well over time the government becomes I think from the top down is treated as objects to be programmed during the campaign I mean with commercials and media vanish and your messages and personal attacks. I actually think that what you're saying that separates America out of this and makes it unique is that there's shame from

millions of people all over this country. Warner Yeah didn't want war and nobody but them. Well boy it sounds like it could just be dropped in right now doesn't it. It does and I think Mark is right that the times are ripe for a new way forward for American politics that people are dissatisfied with the present course of the nation. They want change. I think Perot is a great example of the fact that if you want to be elected president of states and if you want people to give away the most precious vote they have the vote for president is a vote in this country that people think about more I think than any other vote they cast. You have to pass an enormous enormously high threshold of presidential credibility. Perot did not pass that threshold and that's why in the end he fell and failed. The question is whether or not people a candidate for president vice president can come forward this year at this time when people are looking for alternatives and passed that enormously high threshold and pull people away from the anchors of political parties where they have Mord

for so long. But ballot access is key to this right I mean maybe so many other folks who had a strong shot could have made it if they had the access that is needed. Yeah I agree and I think that's why what Americans elected doing in putting achieving ballot access for a potential third candidate city. It is real and makes that candidacy viable. I think the other thing that I would add to what Mark said about the you know people feel are on the wrong track in the dissatisfaction with government that makes the possibility of a third party candidacy real at this time is that our means of communication now is so different than it was in the past I mean you can actually organize a nation as big as the United States in line through social networks and communicate with people in ways that even you know certainly when Perot ran in 92 were not available. So I think the possibility of it is real. It's all going to come down to who the candidate for president and vice president is on that ticket and whether or not they're credible and past that high threshold.

Now before I go back to Mark let me just follow up with you because we described you as a Democratic strategist but in fact you worked on Lincoln Chafee his campaign when he ran as an independent for governor. So I'm wondering if as we're looking at the disgust the sort of frustration that Mark and you have said is out there and that makes an environment ripe. There's also just some looking around at do other levels other than President for people looking for a candidate that seems not tied to any party even though Lincoln Chafee came from one of the you know I actually worked for Governor Chafee and I worked against him when he was a senator when he was a Republican I worked for Shell the White House in 2006. But I think Linc Chafee's victory as governor last year. Bernie Sanders who I've worked for for many years in Vermont but most particular most interesting last year I worked for Elliott Cutler who ran for governor of Maine. He was not elected governor but only lost by a few thousand votes and that to me is the prototype of canna see Ellie Cutler had never sought public office before had lived outside of Maine for many years practicing law and been working in business in Washington D.C. and around the world. Went back to his home where he grew up in Maine and ran as an independent for

governor. No one gave him a chance of winning. And yet he came within a whisker of winning that race because he spoke positively to people. He outlined a vision for the future of where he wanted to take that state. He convinced every major editorial board of every major newspaper in the state to endorse him for for governor. He crossed that threshold of gubernatorial credibility won in that state and people moved to his candidacy at the end for me. Cutler's campaign even more so than Governor Chafee was evidence that at least in New England and perhaps elsewhere in this nation people are ready to move away from political parties if the right candidate shows up with the right message and communicates it to people across a state or a nation. Well Mark you Ross are working on the No Labels campaign trying capitalizing on on what Ted has just said of people trying to move away from labels and describe themselves really from a position of I think ideas as opposed to a label but yet overall you're still a Republican strategist and you're going to get yourself

a little. And I guess that in terms of the two party system. Well actually we don't have today. Cali is what we've had historically I mean politics has always been tough in American we've had very partisan times but there's always been a time at which we you know we said the issues are big enough and challenging enough that we have to work together we have to forge a consensus and for reasons we can talk about all day long that's not the case anymore. So hyper partisan and the parties and the special interests are more interested in winning political battles and creating progress for the country. So the thing that no labels and Americans Elect share in common actually is the idea that the party should be working together. No Labels is working within the system and they're going to announce a broad plan. It's called make Congress work action plan next week that has 12 reforms that Congress can enact overnight on its own through rules that would make a significant difference in how Congress works. That's working within the system no label excuse me Americans Elect is a different way of nominating

a presidential ticket but the real key to this. This effort Americans Elect there's a lot of interesting components to it but I think the most attractive part of it in this current environment is that it has to be a unity ticket. In other words the the ballot nominees for Americans Elect will be a by by rule a Republican and a Democrat or Republican an Independent or an Independent Democrat. And that's what I think voters are really going to respond to is the idea that there that this is a platform that forces the parties to work together because they realize that's the only way that we can solve the problems that we've got. American voters look at the problems in Washington and say the answer seemed pretty obvious. And yet for partisan reasons the system has become paralyzed. Let me mention the ballot access component for just a second if I can because you brought it up and it really is what is a very unique feature of this Americans Elect idea the impediment to third parties is ballot access. And

what that means is that in 50 states there are 50 different rules and laws that have made it that have been set up by the Democratic and Republican parties that make it very very difficult and very expensive for any third party to run. By design they make it hard because they don't they want to keep a monopoly on the system. So Americans Elect I think very cleverly said. You know the way the system is designed you can only have a Ross Perot or a Mike Bloomberg under those circumstances afford to run. So we are candidate new people who are wealthy and yeah they can afford to but can afford to get lawyers to go around 50 states and get signatures and get on the ballot so they said let's be candid a neutral. We have this idea that it should be a unity ticket and some other interesting ideas about how the balloting happens and using technology in a way that that embraces the future I think. But they said. Let's let's just let's pay for the ballot access. Let's take care of that issue so that anybody could run and that they don't have to

pay 20 or 30 million dollars to get on the ballot so that means that levels the playing field and makes it much more democratic. And so yes you know people say well who's going to run I say I don't know yet. But you know Ted I work with a lot of people over the years in politics who are either in government or out of government who think they ought to be president of the United States. And if you say you don't have to go through the primaries and you don't have to pay for ballot access I think there's some very interesting people are going to show up. We're talking about democracy and what it means for the political process to have a third party candidate in a few minutes we'll hear from a political scientist John Berg. He has some interesting thoughts on this. We also want to hear your thoughts. We're opening up the lines 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Voters we want to hear from you. Are you sick of two party politics. Is this bad for democracy. Have you voted for third party ticket in the past 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. This is the Calla Crossley Show an

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J Edgar Hoover as a man who had to keep his sexual orientation a secret but collected other people's secrets to use against them. On the next FRESH AIR we talk with the screenwriter Dustin Lance Black. He also wrote the screenplay for milk about gay activist Harvey Milk. Joining us this afternoon to 9.7 inch. This year eighty nine point seven listen we're talking about the protesters in Egypt. The Soviet Union occupiers are boss of all the wealth and it's. All right. And the resilience of one congresswoman from Arizona Gabrielle Giffords was shot in the head. The story of Giffords recovery is told in a new book titled Gabby you happen to pal and they make a tax deductible gift to support what's next. Call in 8 8 9 7 9 4 2 4. Welcome back to the Calla Crossley Show. If you're just joining us we're talking about two party

politics. We're talking about democracy and the 2012 presidential race. And if it's good for democracy to have a candidate ran on a third ticket I'm joined by Republican strategist Mark McKinnon. He's worked with George W. Bush and John McCain. Currently he's a Shorenstein fellow at Harvard University. Also with us is Tad Devine a Democratic strategist and media consultant. He was a senior adviser to the Al Gore and John Kerry presidential campaign. He's currently a fellow at the Institute of Politics at Harvard's JFK School of Government. Joining us on the line is John Burke professor in the Department of Government at Suffolk University and we've opened up the lines for you 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. We want to hear from you have you voted for a third party candidate in the past. Do you think it's a wasted vote. Do you think a third candidate is good for democracy. 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70.

Professor burg Hi how are you. Good good to be here. We've been having a vigorous conversation about Americans elect and also the climate in which both my guests have said really makes it a little bit more interesting reasonable that people are thinking about a third party candidate because of the kind of stuck at Miss if you can of the people in Congress and people feeling like they're not being heard and they want some people to pay attention to what's really going on in their lives and don't feel that the current two party system is allowing for candidates to do that. So your thoughts on Americans are let me I yeah I'm skeptical about Americans like I have to say. I think they're going to. It's a little too much of a mechanical solution and I'm not sure that there's really it at the moment. A space between the two parties for somebody else I think that things have got so polarized that I could be wrong about this because

then you know you see it more and people or more more follow it more closely I think right now if you could see like the find in minor party support from from the 1990s to today and I think a large part of what happened is George W. Bush was just the Greenlee polarizing figure so a lot of people who aren't that happy with Barack Obama either are still going are still saying well yeah but better him than Republican. You know that wasn't always the case in the past. I thought I'm not sure that there's space in the middle and not sure that there's space for. Campaign without a real strong candidate there in that Michael Bloomberg was talking about running as a senator independent candidate he might have got somewhere because he's got a lot of. But let it. Let me just say this professor so there's They got more than two million signatures from folks all across the country. But 100 chapters people are just you know are

talking about quite a bit now. Tom Friedman says almost described it as a Second Coming. I want to go to New York Times. So just wondering about everything else. What's your reluctance then. I think but I think that the the idea behind it is similar but with a different slant to the idea behind the 20 part it's that people believe that if it wasn't for all of the partisan fighting that basically Americans all think the same thing. And the trouble is that Americans don't often cling to the same and that when you get down to it then you'll suddenly find people say well I thought what everybody thought was that we need you know more government regulation of the rich and when other people those of them think that. There's a lot of people think that everyone thinks that what we need is shrinking government and letting you know the free market go its way. It's I think that that's the I think we're going to run into that. Well hold on Professor. Let's take a couple calls here. Shawn from Salem Massachusetts you're on

the callee cross. Eighty nine point seven. Go ahead please. Hey yeah I just my comment is that I've always wanted to vote for a third party candidate I've always thought would be a very pro-American to do I suppose you know more choice for the consumer voters I think I guess I just always wanted to have a potentially throw away vote because a lot of times but you know the Republicans will never have what I want the Democrats virtually don't but the other party candidate might. But at the same time I kind of feel like I'd be the only one voting for them so I don't know if that would really make any sense for me to vote that way. Let me let my guests now respond to that Mark McKinnon What do you say to that. I think democracy is all about more voice more choice and that the two parties have a stranglehold on the system and I think anything that blows that up is good. I think that I did a poll on my own this week to just test this proposition in theory and if and when you say would you support the Democratic nominee. The Democratic incumbent the Republican nominee or a unity ticket like Americans Elect It's 36 percent for the Democratic incumbent 37 percent for Republican nominee and 25

percent for a unity ticket so that starts off at 25 percent of the American electorate without even knowing who the ticket is. They know who Obama is they have an idea who the Republican nominee is going to be so I think that that's the floor in this environment so I think that there's a great potential for the ticket to possibly win. I think it's almost certain that the ticket would be in the fall debates. And at a minimum the ticket this unity ticket will have a big impact on the dialogue and the debate and will push either party so that no matter who the nominee is it will have an impact on how they govern when they're elected. Yeah I agree with that I think what this caller's reflecting is kind of tactical voting that we see in places like New Hampshire primary for example I mean if you don't become a candidate with a real chance of winning even though someone may like you more than they like someone else they're going to vote for that someone else because they don't want to be with someone who can win. I mean I've heard that in focus groups in New Hampshire primaries in years past. So I think if this third party effort a third candidate effort is going to succeed it's going to be because someone who breaks through they become credible and they really look like they have an actual

chance of not only affecting the outcome of an election but actually winning the election. So so does being. Having access to the ballot then make you more likely to be credible in that way. I think ballot access is an enormous obstacle to credible candidates coming forward in the fact that it's been removed in this instance means the possibility of someone real a substantial step stepping forward could occur this year. So Professor 25 percent and the many poll that Mark McKinnon just took of people saying Gee I consider that and ballot access which has been the overriding obstacle for a third party candidate being taken off the table because that's the whole premise of Americans Elect. Does that make a third party candidate now in your view a little bit more possible. Well there's two different parts of that ballot access I totally agree if you go back to the 19th century. I like to do that. Just understand how the system works. You thought third parties could spring up the Republicans were a third party and they won the presidency the second time out. The People's Party in the 1890s didn't win the

presidency but they want a lot of governorships and senators. And the difference was ballot access in those days there wasn't any control of who got on the ballot all you had to do with and out slips of paper with your name outside the polling places and people would drop in the box. That's all they voted for you. This was when we got to the printed ballots that the state regulated it and then started putting rules about who could be out and who couldn't and made it more more difficult than third parties because we had a much harder time you know and as the 20th century went on it got harder and harder so I think that. If Americans like really succeed they have to some extent eliminated that that would be a good thing. What I'm not so sure of is that 25 percent support without a candidate is is a floor. I think it might be a ceiling and we've got other polls that show that a majority of the public and one in public say they would vote for the Republican nominee resident Barack Obama. But if you put any name of any Republican nominee in it but Obama beats them

all you know. So I think once you've got a person there that that person is taking positions that some of that support is going to go away. Yeah and then I get a question is can they pick up more. But finally I want to say vote for yeah if you believe in it vote for it because it will grow. Ross Perot didn't have a chance of winning but he really shook up politics and had an impact on policy. So if you. Agreed with what he was saying you know and your vote wasn't wasted. It had an impact. I Tracy from Hamilton Massachusetts go ahead please on the Calla Crossley Show eighty nine point seven. Oh thank you. I was just wondering what the panel and American election everything say that the problem that even if you get the top 10 ticket if you are going down the line with also congressional and Senate candidates as well. OK. Maybe by some fluke overtime your guys get in but if all the fame polarizing guys are still in the house from the Senate how do you get

anything done that would be sort of the middle of the road independent type agenda they could get a whole lot of people if you don't have a mechanism for having the ticket go much deeper than just the top two positions. Very good questions arising thank you so much. OK. Well it is a good question. The answer is that you start at the top because that's where leadership come from. And that's where. When the elections happen people look at the presidential election and the people who look most closely at the present election are the people in the Senate and the Congress. And if the unity ticket gets elected president and vice pres of the United States based on the messages that they campaign on I assure you that's going to change the behavior of the people in the Congress because they just like the president and if they want to get re-elected next time they're going to see which way the winds are blowing. Yeah I think that's right to be a new paradigm in American politics and it will be followed very quickly by other people. OK good argument I may well be true I think what we've seen in the last few years is that actually since

1993 the Republicans haven't been in the minority a long time. I thought that they become much more united and much more willing to block issues. President they might still feel that way the question Is it became so hard and so hard for him politically. The problem and what Americans alike would have to do I mean the problem is that they would face is that it's one thing to run someone for president it's another thing to actually build a party that can run people for all the other offices and and so it makes an electoral threat. Really it's got to be you know campaign organization out there that can actually run candidates for the House of Representatives and run candidates for the Senate. Well previous to that that would be that would make a big impact. Professor this Facebook comment maybe follows up on what all of you have said. Alley says what happens after Americans Elect if they win. They're not really creating a new party just an independent ticket. It takes a lot of hard work of winning city councils and state legislatures and building a brand for true third party to be created.

Well see I think one of the things that America elect is doing by the way I support the president and I think he's done a great job in difficult circumstances and deserves re-election but you know but I think what Americans Elect is doing is saying listen we're not going to create a third party. OK we're going to provide access for individuals to come forward to run on a national platform for president vice president. Now party building. OK. Which is a whole different process I think in these times in our modern times and again I saw it last year in Maine with all the color after President. He didn't build a political party but he built a political movement. And most of that movement occurred in online communities and people who followed him on Facebook and and were in touch with him all the time. And when you do that you really don't need the old traditional mechanism of political party and by the way the parties on the national level now are being overwhelmed by independent expenditures because our Supreme Court has said that you can set up entities fund them with unlimited contributions from unknown donors and those entities are going to begin to usurp and replace

the national political parties as well so it's the parties that are under threat. In my view not necessarily these nice new organizations we can spring from the grassroots organize independently online and create movements in real time. That's what's happening right now and that's why I think this is real. Great point. OK. I just want to say we've had you mentioned that we've had independent governors you know made it to Connecticut. I want to you know a couple decades. We've been pretty successful pretty well liked by the people and what they had as they had legislatures with political parties that had members who were willing to work together. If we can change that in the US Congress. You know any Republican or president Democratic president could do a lot better too if you had people in the other party who were willing to cooperate on issues that they agree about rather than to get there. That's a big if. That's that's how we started this conversation with that big if Mark did you want to weigh in on that before I take another call.

I just I think Ted's exactly right. The just the traditional structure is in party infrastructure is completely changing. And he's right about the Citizens United Supreme Court case which is change the way money is flowing into politics and it's and really right now you see it on both sides of the fence but I see a particular on the Republican side which is this whole crossroads effort which is run by Karl Rove and in many ways you could say that that's kind of replace the Republican National Committee and people I know who are smart money people Republican Party are not giving their money to the Republican National Committee. They're giving it to Crossroads and Karl Rove because they know they'll get a good return on their investment. Patrick from Providence Rhode Island Go ahead please. I think the third party idea comes from like the sentiment that you know what nothing's really been accomplished. And I feel like that's more a factor of miseducation of the fact that the Tea Party right now is basically I feel sabotaging so much of what could be forward motion for the sake of what do you want to see a party where you want to say to bring out Obama's

rating whether you want to say to make his presidency go down is one the worst whatever. But I feel like it's like miseducation that people like nothing's being done but it's really because there's this organization in Congress right now that is just so sabotaging anything. And if if there could be more education about that I feel I feel pressure to be more pressure on the Tea Party to actually you know stop this now. Sense of star moving. Look you can put whoever you want in the election and they'll run against Obama and go for it then but right now you guys need to stop this nonsense because nothing is being accomplished. We're fighting battles over things that have never been fought before the debt ceiling been that all these things are like Never issues before so I feel that there is more education about than the public. People would be ultimately defect. It actually isn't that you know the parties are really doing all we want is that you guys right now or for whatever reason just being completely oppositional. So Patrick I take it you're not open to a third party ticket if it was founded on the on the on the right knowledge base if people were if the third party would because they actually had

ideas that they felt. Right now the Democrats or the Republicans were not in favor of it I feel it I feel like it's almost more coming out from this notion that OK nothing's been done. Congress isn't working for us our president can't do anything. I feel it coming from. That sentiment and that sentiment is actually has a different reason. So it's almost a journey to a solution without really understanding the reason for what is annoying you. Whereas if we understood the reason that there might be something in the infrastructure that needs to change in Iraq there might be less of a push for a third party. Thank you very much for the call Patrick. You want to respond. I do yeah I mean we could spend the rest of the hour debating you know whether it's the Republicans and the Tea Party or the Democrats and left who aren't getting things done I would just note that the Democratic Senate is in over 900 days has been incapable of passing a budget on its own. Just as Exhibit A. But the fact is that there is plenty of blame on both sides of the aisle. And my point is that a unity ticket could do what I think the American people think knows has to be done which is to raise

revenue through some taxes and to cut entitlements the Democrats don't want to cut entitlements republish don't want to raise taxes. But the American people know that both have to be done. That's what neither party is doing the Democrats aren't coming into evidence. And the Republicans are raising taxes on a unity ticket I think could do that. Well listen you know it's easy for us that we can go back to partisanship very quickly you know and I would note as a Democrat that when you have a Senate majority leader like Mitch McConnell says his top priority is to make sure Barack Obama is a one term president. You're going to have nothing but stop progress but you know and and that's essentially the dialogue that we have in Washington we point fingers at each other. We you know we don't have tech problems we tech political parties and partisanship but the truth is that. People right now are far less partisan. I'm talking about individual voters. Then the political leaders they represent the political leaders in the system right now forces everyone to partisanship. Individuals that I see in polling and other objective research I'm moving away from political parties there not as many Democrats or Republicans as they used to be. They see themselves more as independent and

able to go to either party much more easily than they did in the past and that's why I think at this moment in time there actually is a huge opening for a new political force to come into being that could win a lot of support and enough support certainly in a three party race to win an election. That's my guess Ted divine Professor burg you wanted to. I know you have to go you at last you know if I might last point I mean I know you've got a point I think in that. Now I know is what I read in the papers but if you go back to the debt ceiling crisis it appeared very much that Obama and John Boehner were ready to make an agreement on the lines that you just laid out you know cutting changing entitlements raising taxes. But that boner became clear the banner he be voted out as leader of the Republican Party in the House of you did it that they were just that much more ideological Republicans. There so that's a problem the other problem just now is that to mention it is a Senate filibuster that filibuster used to be a rare thing that is used now is used so much that the press is saying that

reporting falsely that it takes 60 votes to pass a law in the Senate doesn't take 60 votes it takes six people to close debate. But just you know I think we've got to get rid of that or we're going to get blocking it forever because it's just very hard to take any action at all when a minority can stop it that way. PROFESSOR a tune in next Tuesday when no labels will be rolling out a package of 12 reforms that includes filibuster. There you go your editor for ARS. Thank you very much Professor. Happy to be here. We're talking about the health of our democracy and what it means to have a third ticket candidate run in the 2012 presidential election. We want to hear from you. Do you think the two party system is broken. What a third ticket candidate be good for democracy. Or would it debilitate the political process. You can get in on the conversation at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 7. You're listening to eighty nine point seven. WGBH Boston Public Radio. This program is made possible thanks to you. And the Christmas revels celebrating the season

with 16 family performances December 16 through the twenty ninth at Sanders Theater in Cambridge. Tickets available at 6 1 7 4 9 6 2 2 2 2 or revels dot org. And Jackie Evancho dream with me a concert event starring the young soprano who's been taking America by storm. Plus a chance to pick up Jackie's new holiday CD heavenly Christmas tonight at 9:30 on WGBH too. Next time on the world's polar ice is melting faster and sooner than expected it or not the ice sheet that I was being taught when I was in graduate school. They are trained magnets that rate but were thought impossible rising seas this century could displace more than a hundred million people polarized rapidly melting. Next time on the world. Coming up at 3:00 here on eighty nine point seven

WGBH. Hi I'm Brian O'Donovan. Families across New England have made a Christmas in a part of their holiday celebrations. And while it's great to have so many people join us for an evening of Celtic music and Christmas cheer. That does mean the take it's a nearly sold out so this year we're adding a matinee performance at 4pm on December 14th at the Performance Center in Rockport. This performance will sellout. So make sure you secure your tickets as soon as possible at GDH dot org slash. Have to. Hope you can make it. Great question and it's a great question and it's a great question. It's a great question great question and you'll hear unexpected questions. And unexpected answers this afternoon to toot your own eighty nine point seven WGBH. Good afternoon I'm a Cali Crosley. If you're just joining us we're talking about democracy the 2012 presidential election and what it would mean to have a third ticket candidate.

I'm joined by Mark McKinnon who is a Republican strategist who's worked with George W. Bush and John McCain. He's an advisor to Americans elect and he's currently a Shorenstein fellow at Harvard University. Tad Devine is a Democratic strategist and media consultant. He was a senior adviser to the Al Gore and John Kerry presidential campaign. He's currently a fellow at the Institute of Politics at Harvard's JFK School of Government. You can go and join the conversation at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Do National Party candidates like Ralph Nader and Ross Perot or Massachusetts candidates like Grace Ross and Joel Stein help our political process or hurt it. 8 7 7 3 0 one eighty nine seventy eight 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. I'm going to go right to Dana from Providence Rhode Island because she's asking the question that I was about to ask you to Dana from Providence Rhode Island you're on the Cali Crossley Show Go ahead please eighty nine point seven.

Yeah I think I know the girl. Oh sorry. OK OK. I just wanted to know what role they the electoral college playing in the fact that the rise of an actual third party. It's a good question because people raise the issue well if you don't win then what do you do with the electoral vote. And so my first point of view is that I think that the right third party ticket will win and win enough electoral votes to to win the presidency. If Americans elect has has made a decision that whatever electors it has it will release to vote however they want to vote. So that eliminates the argument that that would somehow be a captive audience. But you know I mean there is a by bike by the Constitution whoever if there's not a 270 vote majority then it goes to the House of Representatives and whoever quote control the House will then control the present.

So let me read this quote from an article by Michael Medved who calls the third party ticket and Americans Elect specifically as engaging in a foolish fantasy. Ted he says this foolish fantasy ignores an obvious but inconvenient truth. Every one of the members of the House will make this decision following what Mark just said was elected either as a Republican or Democrat and will feel the most extreme reluctance intensified by massive partisan pressure to abandon his party when needed most. The House doesn't even boast Congress is too nominal independence. Joe Lieberman and Bernie Sanders both of whom serve in the Senate and have always caucus with the Democrats. That's something to be taken into as we talk about the importance of the Electoral College should an effort like Americans Elect be effective Ted. I think it could be effective I mean listen the greatest pressure in politics is not the pressure of partisanship allegiance to party or even financial support from special interest the greatest pressure in politics is what voters are going to do when they show up at the ballot. We actually have free and fair elections here in the United States this is not Russia. OK. And people actually go and

they vote in for the most part we may have some squabbles about a couple of them from our best. But for the most part these elections allow people to go and express their opinions. And if for example a third party candidate were to coalesce more electoral votes more popular vote and then this thing wound up in the you know in the Congress to decide ultimately every one of those people who are going to cast a vote. As part of the state you know under US system every one of those people most of them are going to be from House of Representatives who will face the voters all of them two years from that date. And I want to tell you something if it looks like there has been a corrupt bargain which there has been in the past in American history or something of that nature then there is the likelihood of immediate political repercussions for people who cast those votes in the Congress. So I'd be very weary of that I think in a day when people likely be tweeting the moment they leave that meeting. OK tweeting after the meeting is about to happen and said you know if and when that happens and everyone will know exactly what happened inside that room.

OK this is going to be a smoky backroom where people don't know what's going on some congressman's going to have their cell phone out. All right and when that happens you know buyer beware. OK and because people will lose a lot of seats and could there then be a grassroots movement which would overwhelm American politics and resettle it in the immediate aftermath of something like that you better believe it. Kathy from Merrimack Go ahead please you're on the callee Crossley Show Oh hi Kelly thank you I love your show. Thank you. I voted for Ross Perot at the time. I just thought he made the end and I was proud to vote for. Come Ralph Nader I thought he was quite divisive really took away from you know the Democrats winning that election. But I could get a lot of credit. Bringing up the third party I hope there's somebody out there that maybe could do more. So you're you're agreeing with my guess that it really depends on the person because you're open to it. Absolutely absolutely I mean Republicans and Democrats are just they're just at loggerheads. They can't what happened just yet maybe the old

back room C'mon let's smoke cigars and have a glass of whiskey you know and disgusting those days are gone and I don't know. Still they did Tip O'Neill and President Reagan get together. Those days are gone. So thank you that many out there. Yeah thank you Ken I think there's going to be Cathy and it's ironic I think that in the American system this must be the most democratic that we're limited generally to two choices and it's usually people coming down saying you know having to vote for the lesser of two evils. We've been talking about Americans a lot but I think there's a great probability they'll be lots of third party canvassers next year there could be a Tea Party candidacy there could be a Ralph Nader Green Party candidate. I think be terrific if there were if Americans had five or six or more choices. Oh well the reason we're talking about Americans Elect is because that ballot access and that makes it a little bit you know viable than other the other candidates have. But you know I'd be remiss if I didn't raise some of the criticisms that have been directed at the at the movement as well. Some are very unhappy with what they feel is a lack of transparency on the part of Americans

Elect who are the donors. I mean this is a lot of money has to go to back this and we've said it is a bipartisan group of that well is that we have tri partisan because you've got independents Republicans and Democrats backing it and their money presumably the people would like to know specifically the CEO of Americans elect has said they're doing that deliberately because they don't want to have their donors harassed. So that's the answer to that. And some are also concerned that if you get all the way through the process and there was a. Loggerhead issue in that let's say the people voted for ticket that was quote not balanced. Not a Democrat and not a Republican or not an independent and not a Republican vice versa. Then there is a small group that can override that decision and so some have described that as a quote veneer of democracy. So I just wanted to get you know your was your response to that mark as a consultant to the group and whether you think these criticisms are valid and how you respond to them.

Well the megaplex operates under all the rules and laws of the IRS and the FEC and files all their filings publicly. The raising money to create a platform once that platform established and there's a candidate that selected all donors will have to be disclosed whoever supports any candidate has to be disclosed but the way it's set up right now is just like the Boy Scouts and donors like donors of the Boy Scouts. You know they've been asked to voluntarily disclose but if they don't want to that's their prerogative in a lot of those potential donors or donors feel that they would face their politically active and face repercussion from the Republicans or the Democrats but the important thing is that once there is a candidate. That the funding for that whoever that candidate is would be operated just as any other candidate was under the FEC laws that are in existence. I don't really understand the second question. Well apparently if there is not a balance according to some of the rules in very tiny print on the ticket let's say those you know now to more than 2 million but more people vote and they end up with two Republicans or two Democrats or

OK whatever then the small group of directors then yeah well the thing I'm really compelled by is how much work this organization has done it's an outcome of it or an effort that began in 2008 called Unity 0 8 and it's really evolved and they put a lot of thinking creating If a legitimate credible third party alternative nominating process and limiting ballot access is a very complex very expensive enterprise and they've done a terrific job of doing it. They've written the bylaws and if you go into the site Americans Elect dot org you'll see that that not only can you as a you can sign up to be a delegate if you're a delegate you can nominate anybody that can run so it's all completely transparent. The candidates will have to fill out questionnaires where they identify where they are on all the issues and so they'll be a sort of you know an environmental template of where these candidates stand and so you'll be on one side of the line or the other. And if you are a nominee for the presidency you've got to pick somebody no matter what they call themselves they got to be on the other side of that issue map. So that guarantees you get a

unified ticket with ballots from both sides. You're listening to eighty nine point seven WGBH an online at WGBH dot org. If you're just tuning in we're talking about democracy the 2012 presidential election and what it would mean to have a third ticket candidate. I'm joined by Republican strategist Mark McKinnon. He's worked with George W. Bush and John McCain. Democratic strategist Tad Devine. He was the senior adviser to the Al Gore and John Kerry presidential campaign. You can join the conversation at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8 8 7 7 3 0 1. Eighty nine seventy is this a paradigm shift no matter what happens because nobody else to date has ever ever been able to achieve ballot access to even you know they already have what nine states on the ballot ever and they continue to get the rest. Well I think you know the outcome will determine whether there's a paradigm shift I think you know what they're doing is very important and I think it's real. And you know just Mark who obviously represents the group very well but there are other people I've met over we had a formal night over at the

Kennedy School to talk about Americans Elect and what they were trying to do and if you meet the people who are head of an organization he's a very serious substantive people. These are people who understand politics and the way campaigns work they also have an understanding of policy. And so if it turns out that this process does enable ballot access and then someone comes forward who is a person of substance and who can articulate the issues who could represent the United States of America on the world stage who is someone who people see as presidential. You know I don't know who that someone is I don't have anybody but you know I was watching Tom Brokaw this morning and I said to my wife you know if you were to run for president you know people would immediately write well I say. Tom Brokaw Condi Rice. So I think you know I mean I don't know who it's going to be but if if it's someone like that and they step onto the stage I want to in a campaign in Bolivia and we picked a candidate for vice president who was a news person who is a leading sort of muckraker of the country and had gone after corrupt politicians in my candidate who had been a previous president who you know there are people who thought he was

part of the old corrupt system. He needed someone like that to run with them and when we picked Carlos Mesa and he stepped out to that stage suddenly the whole thing changed overnight because people really believed in him. And it is amazing how famous you can get so quickly in this country. How if you put the right person in front of the right situation that people can gravitate towards it very quickly so again it's a very high threshold. If they can get someone who can cross it this thing could become real very quickly. I think it's absolutely going to be a paradigm shift at the very minimum because America elect is reimagining democracy it's like if you got here from Mars and look at the problems we have and the challenges that we face we if we could do a completely different what would you do. You eliminate that you don't want to get the best and brightest to step up and they're not today. And so you do lemonade those barriers and when the barriers as the primaries you get rid of those primaries you'd use technology use the Internet so anybody could vote anybody could be a delegate. And anybody could run and it's kind of goes back to our founding fathers idea of public service and that's what's that's what's fascinating about this so. It's

first of all it's going to happen. They're going to be in about 50 states are going to be a ticket and I think you know I think there's a scenario where they could win but at the very least at the very least Kallio I think they will look back and say this was the start of changing the way we do politics in America. I should note that Buddy Roemer who was the Republican candidate for president but who kept getting squeezed out of the debates and whose platform part of his platform is to not accept donors who give more than $100 has put himself forward as someone who would like to be considered for Americans Elect So some people are starting to step forward for those folks they are and I think the Republicans are going to regret having left Buddy Roemer out of those debates. And then Christine Todd Whitman who is a member of the board of Americans elect has suggested that John Huntsman might want to consider it as well he has not agreed but there you have it. What is gained and what's lost whether or not anything happens from Americans elect Ted. Well I think what's going to happen is and I heard Mark talk about this before so I don't want to

repeat what he said but I think I am about to. But you know that if there is a quick and decisive end to the Republican nominating process early on I don't know if there will be that thing may go on forever. But if it is then you're going to be left with a news vacuum. And you know. You know the press bores a vacuum. OK and they're going to look to fill it in. This would provide a way of filling a very big news vacuum for several months. We have a Democratic Republican nominee and we don't have a contest that goes away all the way through the spring and summer. So then it will become a question of gee can you get really credible interesting people to step up and to run on a national ticket if that happens I think the press attention is going to move towards it and that's going to make it real. Last word Mark. I think that it's all about more democracy and more voices more choices is a good thing it's hard for me to imagine any downside to this. I think it's going to be a fascinating innovative bold idea and experiment and at a time when America desperately needs it. And I think I think it's been

fascinating to watch because as Ted said it's been flying under the radar so far which has been partially by design but pretty soon people you know things will settle out in the Republican primary they're going to a lot of voters and the press is going to say Isn't there something else. Isn't there another alternative or something else to write about they would say well hey look at this Americans Elect thing that's going on over here and then. You know by the way it's been off the radar screen not just for the press but for the sort of entrenched interests as well that in recent weeks as I've been talking to some people I've noticed some antenna going up in the Democratic and Republican parties realizing the potential impact this could have. So one of the things that the press will be watching for is to see whether or not the parties try to either blow it up or trying to game it trying to game the system to get their own advantage so that's going to be a very fascinating. So whatever happens it's going to be interesting and entertaining. Well it's always interesting me how stuff gets out when it's deliberately under the radar. And I first heard about it at a party not in Boston and not with political junkie types.

So it's kind of interesting to see how its logo is bubbling it's bubbling up and I hadn't heard a thing about it before. Thank you both. Thank you great conversation. We've been talking about third party politics with Mark McKinnon and Tad Devine. Mark McKinnon is a Republican strategist who's worked with George W. Bush and John McCain. He's an advisor to Americans Elect and is currently a Shorenstein fellow at Harvard University. Tad Devine is a Democratic strategist and media consultant. He was a senior adviser to the Al Gore and John Kerry presidential campaign. He's currently a fellow at the Institute of Politics at Harvard's JFK School of Government. You can keep on top of the Calla Crossley Show at WGBH dot org slash Calla Crossley follow us on Twitter. Or become a fan of the Calla Crossley Show on Facebook today show was engineered by Alan Mathis produced by Chelsea murders. Will Rose lead an abbey Ruzicka the Calla Crossley Show is a production of WGBH Boston Public Radio.