American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with Jim Zwerg, 4 of 4

[Interviewer]: So, another succinct summary on what did the Freedom Rides Accomplish. [Zwerg]: Another t- you're asking the same question? [Interviewer]: Sort of. Using the word ?inaudible? [Zwerg]: Ahat di-, ?inaudible? ask me that again. What did the Freedom Rides accomplish in what way? [Interviewer]: In the sense of it was the first mass, maybe nation-wide movement, interracial, and inter-religious, and making the nation look at itself. Something like that. [Zwerg]: But it wasn't. [Interviewer]: No? [Zwerg]: All the sit-ins were integrated; there were white kids that took part in those. [Interviewer]: Wait, pause tape. [Zwerg]: They were religious. [Interviewer]: True, but then, this- [Zwerg]: All- [cut, inhales and exhales] [Interviewer]: --people coming from California, Florida-- [Zwerg]: I don't see it at that ?inaudible? and they came from all- they came from all over, but I-- [Interviewer]: --came from all over Florida, California, they weren't- didn't necessarily go out to Nashville to sit-in, or Greensboro to sit in, or, you know what I mean, like this one, everyone's like, "I'm just I gotta get to Jackson, I just gotta go!"

[Zwerg]: Well, that's where it was. [Interviewer] Right. [Zwerg] I don't think it was right right in a way yes and we know we have more students take part in demonstrations of natural than ever took part pretty much everyone, students, people who were retired, who were married or single, you know that's what we're trying to put-- [Zwerg] And I can't say what their motivation was. I don't know. [Interviewer] Well not motivation, but a summary of "wow, this really brought all these kinds of people together on mass in a way not up until '61, in a way not seen before, because we're pre-march on Washington, we're pre- all that. [Zwerg] Yeah, I don't-- [Interviewer] Is there something you can say about that? Because you know, the

burdened-- like retired professors or army colonels, professors-- [Zwerg] added the fact that people from a broad spectrum of the country got involved added to the impetus towards the federal government to do something, that it wasn't just students, that there were adults, that there were such a broad spectrum. And I didn't hear it until the 40th reunion standing in front of that burned out bus. Because for years I felt very uncomfortable getting the notoriety that I did as being a part of this because I didn't go on like John and Diane and spend the rest of my life really doing so much of this stuff.

When I first saw that display in Birmingham, it brought me to tears. I really felt I shouldn't be there. And then to look over at the timeline for the movement and for 1961 to see that same picture of me in the hospital, I felt that was totally inappropriate. There were so many people that did so much beyond what I did. And I started crying like a son of a gun, just "I shouldn't be here, I shouldn't write," and I felt this hand on my shoulder, and it was Jim Davis, a fellow with the power company down in New Orleans, he'd been an LSU football player at the time. And he said "what's the matter, brother Jim?" [makes blubbering noises]

And he turned me around and he looked me in the eye and he said, "Jim, it was your words that were the clarion call to action for this country. You said 'we're going to keep coming' and we responded to you, we weren't going to let you down." I had never heard that before and it was terribly humbling. But I have since been told by many people that it was my words from the hospital bed that motivated them to get involved. And that, that means a lot to me. Because it did bring people out of such a variety of backgrounds for whatever reasons. I was logical I think that clergy got

involved, but you had people from high school to senior citizens that said "yeah, I want to be part of this, I want to help make our country better." And as a result the breadth of the types of people and the walks of life and the diversity of backgrounds was also a very important factor in bringing about real change. [Interviewer] So, okay that's good-- sentence you'd like to say or know, just something like that, we're just asking everyone that question since they were involved. [Zwerg] You know, there's-- I'm going to be on the film for about a minute and half, if I'm lucky. [Interviewer] No, longer than that. [laughs] [Zwerg] Yeah, "and how was your body odor before you got hit?" "It stink probably, I don't know."

[clears throat] I think one of the important things that the Freedom Rides accomplished was to touch a breadth of humanity across our country and across the world that responded in getting involved. Ages, diverse backgrounds, young and old, rich and poor, you name it they were involved in the ride. And they wanted to bring about change and I'm sure that that was a factor in helping bring about that change. And if you ask me to do it again-- [Interviewer] Okay, that's fine [laughs]. [Zwerg] I'm going to stick my tongue out. --more than, yeah-- so do you want to

ask me a question? [Interviewer] Yes. That was sort of the I think the era of Americana, of American travel, of-- did that strike, the Freedom Ride strike a chord because of that? [Zwerg] I don't think in that regard. I think because the media grabbed ahold of this it got before-- it put before more people number one the reality that students were bringing about this change, not the old folks, but the students wanted a better world, they wanted a better country and they wanted to do it in a very unique way that people hadn't heard about. This nonviolence thing fascinated people and it fascinates them today.

But the reality that it could bring about change and constructive change to me is what really was the different and the ultimate impact of the Freedom Rides. [Interviewer] One last super detail about the crushes, like did people have crushes on each other? It just seems like a cool era also-- [Zwerg] Diane was a stone fox. It was such fun to come back to Beloit with the jargon, "mm-mm-mm, work with that thing, mama!" it's not like that, and you'd kind of go--. [Interviewer] So the sit-ins were also-- Nashville also taught you another vocabulary. [Zwerg] I felt very comfortable, I felt

very comfortable there. I never felt segregated, I never felt any prejudice from the students there, felt I was one of them, and I truly liked, love the fact that we refer to one another as brothers and sisters because we truly are brothers and sisters and I keep thinking of the time when Jesus was told that his family was waiting, "get a move on," and he said "and who are my brothers and my sisters and my mother but those who do the will of my heavenly father?" And that we were involved in something that I feel very strongly had a divine inspiration and was

moving us in the direction of social justice and social change. [Interviewer] And can I have just one last color comment on the flavor, like it's you learning "stone fox" you're dancing the twist." [Zwerg] I knew the twist before that. You want a funny little anecdote? [Interviewer] In that time, yeah. [Zwerg] In that time. One of the things that fascinated me in the dorm and was watching the fellas shave because they would take a regular knife, eating knife, and they had this paste that was yellow and they'd mix it up and it stunk to the high heavens of sulfur like eggs and they would apply it to their faces and then they just take their regular knife and take

it off and it was a depilatory-- I think that's the right term-- and I thought "wow, that's slick," you know just to use a knife not a razor and everything, "I think that's cool, I ought to try that." So I got some of the stuff well it's not for light-skinned people. I was raw. I got it on and I kind of went "oh my god" [laughs] and I got it off, I had a red beard for a few days and I was chuckled over by my dorm buddies for a while. Yeah, I learned. [Interviewer] And your dances, or new ways to dance. [Zwerg] No, just did a little different, we danced slow, they had dances there and everything. It was having green eyes it was interesting when everyone-- I went to an inter-mural or a girls' basketball game and it was a white school, I think they were playing Peabody College,

and one of the gals came over to meet later and said that the white girl was fascinated by me that I must have been high yellow because of my green eyes, but I sure was light-skinned. So yeah, silly little things. I think one of my favorites was we were at Highlander Folk School, a number of us taking part in a workshop for students from the south, both white and black, and a student from Mississippi got going on my being from Wisconsin, that I was definitely an outside agitator, I wasn't from the south. "Southern whites weren't doing this, it was you northern guys." And I got thinking that night "man, you know I guess I am an outside agitator, has that lessened what I've been involved with?" and this was before the ride but Bernard Lafayette was there

and I was talking with him and I said "Bernard, is it true, am I really kind of a negative outside agitator?" and he said "well Jim," he said "you may be an agitator, but remember what an agitator does in a washing machine? That's what cleans up the mess." And from that point on I was proud to be an agitator. [Interviewer] Great, thanks. We got room tone? [PA] Rolling on room tone. [silence] [silence] [Zwerg] Tuesday, May 16th, 1961.

We held two meetings today. The first was at six this morning, the second from seven to one tonight. After much discussion we decided to continue the Freedom Ride. Of the 18 who volunteered, ten were chosen: three females and seven males. We will leave on the Greyhound bus tomorrow morning at either 5:15 or 6:45. I talked with Dean Green and Dean Cheatham about it and they said that they would check out my finals. We were all again made aware of what we can expect to face: jail, extreme violence, or death. We're willing to accept whatever comes since we will be doing what we believe and know is right. We all had to write out statements dismissing our schools of any legal responsibility for our actions and also made out a will.

I was really tired when I finally got to bed about two am. [PA] Would you indulge us? Would you mind reading it one more time? I want to shoot it completely differently. [Interviewer] That was good, love the read and the pacing. [PA] That was good for me, I'm glad you're going to do it again. You can go anytime. [Zwerg] Tuesday, May 16th, 1961. We held two meetings today. The first was at six this morning, the second from seven until one tonight. After much discussion we decided to continue the Freedom Ride. Of the 18 who volunteered, ten were chosen: three females and seven males. We will leave on the Greyhound bus tomorrow morning at either 5:15 or 6:45. I

talked with Dean Green and Dean Cheatham about it and they said they would check out my finals. We were all again made aware of what we can expect to face: jail, extreme violence, or death. We are willing to accept whatever comes since we will be doing what we believe and know is right. We all had to write out statements dismissing our schools of any legal responsibility for our actions and also made out a will. I was really tired when I finally got to bed about two am. [Interviewer] Lovely. Thank you. [silence] [silence]