WGBH Radio; The Callie Crossley Show

I'm Kelly Crossley and this is the Cali Crossley Show going off to make license plates has long been a euphemism for going to jail. But that may no longer be apt for Bay Staters behind bars. Legislation is afoot to put an end to paying prisoners for their labor as a way to cut costs. Prisoners could get time shaved off their sentences instead of wages for their work. If passed would this bill keep prisoners from developing the skills they need. Once back in the workforce what the state really save money. We'll talk to two sheriffs who stand on opposite sides of this issue. But we kick off the hour with John Boehner a Republican candidate taking on the songs his congressional seat. We wrap up with local made good to talk to a Needham resident about her work to bring women's rights to Afghanistan. What the White House has just honored with a citizen's medal. Up next prisons politics and presidential honors. First the news. From NPR News in Washington on Lakshmi Singh rescue operations are

underway across Asia where heavy rains have triggered flash floods and landslides in northwestern China. Entire villages are washed out in a torrent of water and debris yesterday. At least three hundred thirty seven people are dead. Eleven hundred people are still missing. Millions are displaced in Pakistan which is reeling from its worst floods ever. The U.N. says it's still unable to reach hundreds of thousands of people who've been stranded for days in northwestern Pakistan without basic supplies. Floods are also blamed for dozens of deaths in Indian controlled Kashmir. Authorities say about 500 people are still missing. Retired Coast Guard Admiral Thad Allen says work is progressing on the final stages of the relief well that killed the blown out well. Eileen Fleming of member station WWL no reports more work is in store for equipment now on the sea floor of the Gulf. The government's point man for the response says once the well is declared dead crews will start removing the containment cap that stopped the leak in mid July.

Once the relief well is finished that equipment will have to be removed and the oh well to be plugged under regulations that are issued by the Department of Interior and that will involve several steps. There will be a removal of the cap itself and all. Only the removal of the current blowout preventer and its replacement Allen says BP has less than 100 feet to drill before intercepting the well which is expected at the end of this week. Mud and cement will be pumped in before the well is considered permanently shut. For NPR News I'm Eileen Fleming in New Orleans. House lawmakers are interrupting their August recess and returning to Washington. NPR's Joel Snyder reports they are likely to vote tomorrow on a 26 billion dollar jobs bill. It's an unusual session called by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. She called for the special session last week just after the Senate passed the bill. The Obama administration says it could save the jobs of tens of thousands of teachers and other public workers. Congressional Democrats say it's crucial to reversing potential layoffs

ahead of the start of the new school year. But Republicans aren't so sure. They contend getting the bill passed quickly and on to President Obama is more about this November's election. Many of those whose jobs are on the line are labor union members traditional Democratic Party allies. The House could take up another measure the Senate passed last week. That one is a 600 million dollar bill aimed at boosting security along the border with Mexico. Trial Snyder NPR News Washington. The Israeli prime minister suggests Turkey might have been looking for a fight when it refused to prevent an aid convoy from breaking Israel's blockade of Gaza. Benjamin Netanyahu was a first to testify before an Israeli commission about an Israeli confrontation with a Turkish ship in May. Commandos had killed nine pro-Palestinian Turkish activists setting off diplomatic fury among Turkey and other countries. This is NPR. South Korea says the North fired artillery rounds into the Yellow Sea near its border with the South today from Seoul to a psych out-I reports of firing

took place as South Korea's navy concluded five days of naval exercises. Local media reports say the shelling by North Korea took place just half an hour after South Korea finished five days of anti-submarine drills aimed at strengthening its defenses against possible enemy attacks. A spokesman for souls Joint Chiefs of Staff told Yonhap News Agency that 110 rounds of artillery were fired into waters near the northern limit line just off the clean Peninsula's West Coast. This demarcation line was drawn up by the UN after North and South Korea agreed to stop firing at each other. The two Koreas remain technically at war without a peace treaty signed. For NPR News I'm too awfully psych out in Seoul. NATO's investigating an attempted prison escape over the weekend that ended in the deaths of two American Marines. The Alliance said today that the Marines were trying to subdue a prisoner who escaped a room where he was observing prayers. The inmate got hold of a rifle and started a gaijin coalition forces.

The prisoner was killed in the shootout. The Japanese city of Nagasaki marking the sixty fifth anniversary of the U.S. atomic bomb attack during World War 2. People also observed a moment of silence for the 80000 people killed in Nagasaki three days after Hiroshima was bombed. The U.S. sent its first delegation to commemorations in Hiroshima but no one was dispatched to Nagasaki. I'm Lakshmi Singh NPR News in Washington. Support for NPR comes from the NE E. Casey Foundation whose kids count is a state by state look at child well-being and the important role of data at a ECF dot org. Good afternoon I'm Cally Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show. Today we continue our 2010 mass decision election coverage with a look at the 5th Congressional District.

The seat is currently held by Niki Tsongas. Joining me today is John Galt. He joins us to talk about his campaign and his platform on the Republican ticket. John Golic welcome. Kelly thank you very much for having me. And case anybody didn't get it you're working to unseat Niki Tsongas Yes. And what's your biggest difference with Nikki's on that would you say you know my biggest difference is I'm out listening to the people listening to their challenges the problems that they face. I mean gauge some response of you know in a lot of ways I believe that a campaign is a dress rehearsal for the type of legislature you'll be a legislator and I'm hoping that people see what a hard worker I am and what a good listener. I want to give our listeners a chance to hear one of your web ads you know what web videos. And this is what drives John got a mic. And you did this. You put it on YouTube in May. If someone had told me that I was going to be you know barking on their journey. Even five years ago I would have laughed. I mean despite the fact that I did say I have family members that make their living in politics you know my grandfather John Mayer was a large longest elected city

official in Hartford Connecticut history. My brother still makes a living in politics but you know I one of those people who finally got fed up. OK you got fed up because you've been listening to the people and you say they're fed up too. They're fed up yeah. You know they're fed up about the buyouts the takeovers and the runaway spending. You know I think that they're that they're fed up because they get the impression there's an arrogance in Washington D.C. right now out of the leadership that believe somehow Washington knows better than we do what's good for our lives. Well you know it used to be a time when Republican candidates were looked at as. But you know Scott Brown changed that so nobody can take anything for granted anymore. Right. Lots of people are considering you a front runner in that race on the Republican side. How do you see. You know I certainly am humbled by that and flattered by that we're not complacent at all we're going to continue to work hard. You know we do face three other opponents and we're just going to keep getting out there meeting the people we always tell everyone we don't we're not going to be outworked and we don't plan to be.

And so again we take nothing for granted and we're just going to keep working hard. We do have a fantastic organization we put together. We have outraised all of our primary opponents six or seven to one. And I know that you know that no one's come to talk about money but money is the mother's milk of politics. So we feel pretty good where we are right now. And what's the response you're getting from people. You know we get out we meet people we meet with. It's different you know we talk to just citizens on the street I mean again they're worried they're worried about the deficit spending that they're worried about the jobs that are being created you know there are plenty of programs out there that are being talked tossed around for example renegotiating mortgages who are upside down in their mortgages and while I think those are good ideas at the end of the day everything revolves around jobs if you're not working it doesn't matter whether your mortgage is 350 or 300 you're not paying it. If you're not working. Chances are you don't have health care so we really believe that a focus needs to be an emphasis need to be placed on jobs and job creation. More specifically job creation in the private sector. Now some people would look at your background. Dartmouth and Wharton and such and say OK that's kind of

elite that's the language really using now but you say I say you know what I've I've had to work hard for everything that that I've done I mean I I was a scholarship student I mean affect my father lost his job. My second month when I was up at Dartmouth College of and it wasn't for the the generosity of the financial aid system and also my billet you know I was working 40 hours a week. To supplement my financial aid in order to complete my education at Dartmouth and continuing I needed a lot of financial aid and student loans as well to get my graduate degree so I've always had to work very very hard very proud of what I've accomplished. And I don't bring it up too much because I'm a pretty private guy and I don't like to talk about it I like to. Again I like my actions to speak louder than words but if asked about it I'll certainly address it I mean I was lucky I received a very good education there. I'm going to pinpoint you on on one issue because part of your background I found fascinating you were an intern in a program sponsored by Mayor Harold Washington to try to straighten that should not go for people who don't know

Harold Washington was the first African-American mayor of Chicago. And part of your job was to work with Chicago's Hispanic population. How did that if you did frame your policy on immigration. I was well at the time you know immigrant I worked there. Let me see I graduated in 1984. So I worked there in the spring of 85 now this is interesting it's interesting you bring this up. This was two years before Ronald Reagan's amnesty that he crossed the border in the city for 2.6 or 2.9 million illegal so. I was still young. I wasn't really that aware of the illegal situation but it was a great experience for me because here I came from central Florida and I went off to Chicago and I lived in the Hispanic community. I lived actually on the second floor of a Hispanic nursing home where I spent half my day there and then I spent the other half of my day at a Hispanic daycare facility so I'm a big believer in it. It impacted me to the extent that the Republican Party has always said that they want to be a big tent. And

again we get back to actions speak louder than words you're hearing my theme here but we need to show other actions not with our words that we're going to be that. And so I know I'm being told by certain people look you have to go where your voters are. And I know that makes sense. But that's not stopping me from spending time in communities where Republicans typically don't are found. And so I spend plenty of time up north Lawrence meeting with people. People want to see what was spoken to you know challenges that people face really are fairly similar across any community. You go speak to so I know that sometimes you have a finite amount of time and you can only spend it's doing so much but. The one thing that I'm going to do is I'm going to run my own campaign and I'm going to go talk to every community because with only 12 percent registered Republican voters in the fifth district I need to put together a coalition of people that that will support me to win this race. So because you have some intimate knowledge of this certain community did it frame your current immigration immigration policy you know what has it framed my immigration policy I mean I still think I would because I would be considered to be fairly conservative on the immigration policy. I do not believe in amnesty in any way shape or form. My issue is that

I think that magnets are what attract people to this country and we need to turn these magnets off. We talk a lot about reform. We're hearing about reform of immigration reform financial services reform. I'm beginning to think that reform is a code word for expanded government. I think that we need to enforce our laws I don't think we're having a lot of enforcement so I would prefer to enforce the laws on the books before we talk about reform because how do we know it needs reform if we're not enforcing. OK. I have to bring up this blog written by Iron Mike of the rebel Republican blog who is very unhappy with you because he says that when you moved to Carlisle in 2001 Mrs. Carlyle your wife signed up to vote but you did not. That's right. Therefore you write you were first registered to vote in 2009 and then you didn't vote in 2002 2004. And he said a couple of those years one put Niki Tsongas in rice and one returned her to office. So his point is why should he support you. And you know that's a challenge that's a challenge that I faced I mean I gave it a lot of thought before I decided to run you know. It wasn't like I had never been involved the political process as I had as you played in my commercial you know my grandfather

was a longest elected city official in Hartford Connecticut I had worked on his campaigns before I even could vote. And I continued to work hard through all the elections and voted in all actions and volunteered for campaigns through 2000 but I got. Look I got very frustrated and I became very cynical and I fell into the trap that a lot of people fall into. It's one of those things that I have in my pocket. I am not very happy about and I'm disappointed in myself. But there's nothing I can do about it I can't change it so again I I what I should have done is what I'm doing now and jumped in with both feet in the water and done what I'm doing and I hope I'm hoping that people can see that you know I mean business that I'm out there working and listening and working as hard as anyone in this campaign to listen to them and hopefully bring the challenges to Washington D.C. to be shelved. So I raise it because you know it kind of killed Caroline Kennedy's campaign the fact that she did not vote. It did. Yeah it did it did and I think you know it's say again you know that was this is a period of time my life where I became disenfranchised myself I certainly would never encourage anyone else to do the same. It was a bad thing that I did stuff to tell my kids that because we talk about I mean I've been very upfront with it I've talked to

the press about it from the very beginning it's been on my website my whole political journey and why I did what I did. And it's something I regret. But again I can't change it. And I hope that. You know people can see by the way I'm working now they can see that I will be a legislator that they can be proud to call Congressman on the Republican side. Sammy is and we've had him on this show is a very attractive candidate for some He's got a fabulous story and he's working on the two of you are the names that people are talking about in this on the Republican side. Can you beat it. Yeah I think I can. I think we've got a I think we have a better organization. I think that again we've raised more money and I had to keep coming back to money. You know we can't project you cannot project your message if you don't have the capital to do that so we've raised more money we have a better organization. And I think we're working harder. So I do think when you never get into anything thinking you're going to lose. I feel very comfortable where we are right now but again we're not complacent. We're going to keep focusing on the primary and. And hopefully beyond. And Niki Tsongas is vulnerable you think this time around I think she is you know the district voted

57 43 for Scott Brown I think an argument can be made that people are more upset now than they were back in January. Of the 21 towns and cities in the district Scott Brown won 20 of them five of the nine that he lost the last Lost last than a margin of 450 votes. So but again look we're going to run around race people like to say Are you a Scott Brown Republican I say am I John Boehner the Republican. You know we're a big tent. And I as a theme I come back to. And you couldn't put two of us in a room and get us to agree on everything. Yeah right. Well we've been talking with John go Mick. He's running for Congress in the 5th Congressional District. John Gomez thank you so much for joining us so much for having me and have a great day. Thank you. And let me remind our listeners that we're going to be interviewing all the candidates in the Fifth Congressional District. But coming up next we talk to Suffolk County Sheriff Andrea Kroll and Bristol County Sheriff Thomas Hodgson about legislation proposing that prisoners not be paid wages for their work. We'll be back after this break stay with us. The boy with the

above the back seat support for WGBH comes from you and from the Office of Cultural Affairs and special events local area restaurants opened their doors for Restaurant Week. August 1st through the 15th Lowell a city of world culture. More info at culture is cool work. And from Skinner auctioneers and appraisers of antiques and fine art you might consider auction when downsizing a home or disposing of an estate. Sixty auctions annually 20 collecting categories Boston in Marlborough online AD Skinner Inc dot com. In 1940 filmmaker Ken Burns told the story of America's past time simply titled baseball in this epic film 150 years into

9 4 and now Ken Burns has returned to the Parkers for our documentary The tenth airing to include the historic 2004 World Series victory by the Boston Red Sox. So this side your copy of this updated collection at a price below retail at WGBH dot org. On the next FRESH AIR. Jonathan Eig takes us back to the roaring 20s in Chicago when cops and judges were on the take bootleggers were milling each other down and Al Capone bragged to reporters about his underworld clout. He made his reputation the day he approached a rival in broad daylight says hello puts the gun to his cheek fires six times and holds him on the barstool as he keeps firing. What you didn't know about Al Capone. Join us. If you've recently received WGBH asking you to renew your member please return it as soon as you can. August 21st marks the end of the fiscal year to gauge your support in any amount would make a big difference. Thanks.

Afternoon I'm Kalee Crossley and this is the Kelly Crossley Show. There is a legislative push proposing that state prisoners not pay prisoners for their work. The rationale behind this is that they would save the state money. But what about the prisoners. Joining me to talk about what it may mean for prisoners and prisons if those incarcerated were not paid to work are Suffolk County Sheriff Andrea Cabrera and Bristol County Sheriff Thomas Hodgson. Welcome to you both. Great to be great thank you here. Now what do you think. Should prisoners be paid. Give us a call at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 if you want to weigh in. So let me begin this way with both of you. Share of hardship. What kind of work do prisoners do exactly so people are clear about what we're talking about. Well they do a number of different tasks. Cooking in the kitchen cleaning in the facilities some maintenance. But basically housekeeping the sort of things that they would normally do in the course of a day. OK so your four brothers at the same pretty much same for you. Well it's

internal and external maintenance of the facilities. And that involves some cleaning snow removal things like that. In Suffolk Counties case we have a crew of inmates who have gone through a particular vocational program whose labor is more skilled and they're actually trained in painting carpentry landscaping and so forth and they do that both in and around our facilities but also on public land out in the cities that comprise Suffolk County. Now your prisoners are getting paid right. Careful Yes they're paid from anywhere from one to two dollars a day and they're paid from what we call the inmate Benefit Account which is made up of money from canteen sales and telephone use of telephone sales. OK. Now Sheriff Hudson you're on record for saying you know prisoners should not be paid they're not paid right now in your prison and you are one of the supporters of this legislation that's sponsored by Elizabeth Portier who from North Alabama girl.

And the legislation would essentially charge prisoners $5 for. You know what toiletries and whatever. Why do you think that's a good idea. Well there's actually two bills and I asked the both before one was to charge them $5 a day the other was to to stop the use of any taxpayer's dollars to pay inmates whether incarcerated in any institution in Massachusetts on the issue of paying paying them. From my perspective the taxpayers money at a time where we're closing schools and cramming kids into classrooms where we're saying there's no money for arts programs afterschool programs or sports and what have you. It's pretty difficult for the average person to understand who's out there working that their kids can't get these these benefits while they're paying taxes but the person that broke into the home stole their kids computers going to get paid while they're doing their time in prison. It just in my opinion. Flies in the face of good public policy. And if we have that kind of money available in the state for example they they pay about 3 million a year to these individuals who are doing housekeeping in our

facility. They are in good time at the 7 1/2 days a month and that's all they should be earning in my opinion. So instead of payment what you would propose is that they get more time off up to seven days a month. Well by law they're allowed to 7 1/2 days a month and we break it out some of those days or or a month of done by working some or for education program some are for for social issues around substance abuse and things like that. Let me just ask this question before I move over to share of COBRA. If we were not in an economic crisis would you still think this is a good idea. I still would think that taxpayers money ought not to be used to pay individuals for working in the prison. But look they're not they're not learning about. The rewards of work because we learn that at 10 years old and if you're fortunate to get allowance as a kid you know that when you work you get something in return and it doesn't always have to be money. Our job is to teach each individual work ethic and the reward is earning good time to get us get you out of prison earlier which ultimately helps the taxpayers well because OK they're not in there as well. All right I'm going to let Sheriff abroad get in but I want to let our listeners know they can weigh in 8 7 7

3 0 1 89 70 pay prisoners are no share of COBOL. Why do you think that you disagree with him. Well I can't speak for the department of correction but I don't think that there are any county sheriff's offices that use taxpayers money. It's as I said ours is from something called the inmate Benefit Account which is established by statute. And what goes into that is the money that the department derives from inmates buying things for their canteen or Also using the telephone. So it's not taxpayers money that's being used to pay them. But the bottom line is is that the maintenance of his Leeza facilities run 24 hours a day seven days a week. Keep up keep in maintenance is actually crucial. And inmates actually volunteer to do it. The money that they get between $1. $2 a day for unskilled labor three dollars a day from nontoxic taxpayers money. There are people that send that money home to their kids. There are definitely people that use it to buy soap and other items from the canteen that they want. But we've actually had inmates send money to charities from what

they get from one to two dollars a day. But it's voluntary if you charge them $5 a day to stay there. What incentive would they have to do any work around the facilities and quite frankly we don't have the staff to do the work that inmate runners in inmate work crews do. OK let me ask you the question that I think a lot of our listeners would say well we don't care if they don't have any incentive they're in prison they did bad things. So what make them do it. Because it's going to cost taxpayers much more for me to hire staff who get health benefits and a good regular pay increases and vacations and time off to do all of the maintenance that inmates do around the facilities and some of our facilities are huge huge facilities if you're talking about the sheriff's department in multiple buildings over acres and acres of land. That's a great deal of work. Now if taxpayers would rather pay that but to hire staff to do it that's fine. But if you're if you're because there's no cost savings is what you're saying. No no I don't think that there's any cost savings and if you're talking

about time off of a sentence you've got to look at the impact of that judge's sentence individuals on the Right now the statute says seven up to seven days a month. And that's from participation in programs not work. There's no calculation in legislation as to what something would be worth So if you're in the kitchen how many hours is that worth of your sentence how many days is that worth. It's sort of an unfunded mandate in that Charest would be left to their own devices to assess what each job is worth. I'm going to get in here but Sheriff there's a caller that we have Isabel. Go ahead please because I know you agree with the sheriff Hodson's on relit you weigh in. I do and I want to start off by saying that I'm a bleeding heart lip. Roland I'm all for prisoners rights. I agree with the sheriff Sheriff Hutchinson on this. However I don't believe that prisoner should get paid for maintaining their living space. It's something that everybody in society does if you're a renter your landlord doesn't pay you to clean your floors and wash your bathrooms. I don't pay my husband for helping around the house. He doesn't pay me.

And I think it should be used for more than just a bargaining chip chip also for making the sentences last because it does teach prisoners I think order in everyday living skills. OK. And maintaining order around themselves. So I don't think they should get. I did have a quick question. What do you think you with the money that they do earn in the counties that they are paid and I'll take my answer off the air. Thank you very much. Straight lines are you surprised when I came into the course and what they do with the money that they earn because we don't pay them any money they only are in good time. Well those that get paid let me just answer that question. They use it for toiletries and you know canteen kind of items according to this legislation. Well yeah but you know the money the money that they get their own toiletries you know this argument that well if you don't pay him then the taxpayer is going to pay for the toiletries Well not in charcoals case because she's paying at the commissary. But in the case of the state where they're paying up to three me the taxpayer payers dollars whether

you pay them and they pay and they buy toiletries back it's still taxpayers money no matter how you look at it so that's a red herring. But the it let me go to the issue of whether or not let me be clear about that because there is a $10 limit right that they can have in the canteen. And so if if they go over that then there is some kind of calculated subtraction So in the end it ends up kind of being a wash right. I mean in terms of what they in terms of the toiletries in the cost of the toiletries. Well you know we're not we're not talking about the $5 fee here. OK we're talking about the idea of paying inmates to work in the prison and in that case you know. Surf about have a little differing opinion on this. Inmates in most of the counties work in the facility because they want to get good time they want to get out of their cells I mean they don't want to sit in a cell all day so they're going to work. If we don't have any issues around having to hire new people or anything else we used inmates and we have plenty of inmates to do the work as I think most facilities do.

So this idea that that you know and I don't know how much percentage wise of the chef knows how many send it home to their families but we don't we just don't have that kind of a problem in our facility where a $750000 on a $5 fee. Yeah. Over two years. And these inmates they had money in coming out of the Q Okay so it's a whole different thing. Now so the reason we're having this discussion is about whether or not this impacts both the state you know potentially some budget money for the state but also recidivism. So you know you haven't to believe they don't get paid they're working to get time off that reduces recidivism. Jeff you're saying you don't pay the people wanted $2 as they make you know a day and it increases recidivism you want to respond to them. Well what we know is that when people leave the house of correction they frequently are homeless or have or are looking to stay with relatives a few dollars in canteen money means that you at least are not an immediate burden on the people you're going to live with that you can sustain yourself for a little while you may not have enough to

rent an apartment which is why you're staying with relatives. But you're not going to necessarily be as big a drain on food and so forth and toiletries and things like that. But the issue is really who pays who what we're not making. I think the right distinction here are we talking about charging $5 a day for any inmate regardless of whether or not that inmate is being paid out of commissary funds. Or making one to two dollars a day are we talking just about the inmates who earn an income. Because that was my earlier point. If an inmate is volunteer ing to do the work and they're making one to two dollars a day but you're charging them $5 a day they start out behind. If you're charging every single inmate $5 a day that's essentially a tax on the people who come in to put money in the canteen which to my observation are wives and girlfriends largely of family members and grandmothers on fixed incomes. That's who's down in my lobby putting money in prisoner's canteens and that's a de facto tax on people whose relatives go to jail who have done nothing themselves. So it's not the prisoners being punished it's the families back but if the inmate doesn't have the money they may doesn't have the money but if you're charging $5 a day and they want to take that money out of their canteen funds

someone's going to come down and pay that or if they stay if they're I know there's a component of the bill it talks about if they stay out for two years then the debt would be wiped away. But again another in a way another unfunded mandate. No one's talking about who you use to calculate these amounts and how they get dispersed. I know that there are some inmates in addition to you know it's not that I have a huge number of people sending money home because the money that they're making is not that great. But there are with we do take victim witness fees we get orders from the court to take the victim witness fee that the $60 per person that they're charged and that is coming from money that they've expended that is not taxpayer funds and that's going to go to support you know the mass Office of Victim Assistance and other victim assistance programs. So I think I think we just need to be really careful about. It's sounds good to say five bucks a day and I can raise a bunch of money but you looking at where you get it from who pays it essentially with a nod to defacto sort of tax on a group of people who have not done anything wrong. Those things deserve some thought and some consideration as to as do the de-facto taxes

on the victims of crime where they have their insurance rates going up and all of this. Look this idea that the taxpayer who has done nothing wrong has to continue paying for the rising cost of prison and the people who are committing crimes against them are really recession free they can buy all the candy in the Walkman and things that they want with their money. It just makes no sense in my opinion. The other thing is that that you know this idea that the families are sending it in we tell the families don't send money and the best thing they do if they have some may some may but they know up front. If you send money and the person is is not an indigent just see point based on the $10. Then likely $5 each day. Then I have money and there will be taken out we will take it all out at once. We take it. Now that doesn't mean if say today you have 20 bucks and $5 comes out that morning you have canteen the next day that you can't use your 15 you can't. But we are going to collect the 5 when you have it in the account and it's

beyond indigency let me go back to something you said a little bit earlier about you know these are people who you know didn't have allowance didn't you know have developed any job skills but in fact. A lot of the inmates in Massachusetts and working in a mask or producing a lot of products I mean they're making flags they're making license plates seriously I mean this these are things that if they were not available to make them that's going to cost the taxpayers something to have this stuff manufactured right so again is that a wash. That's what I'm trying to. Can we get ahead in the savings that you think that we can but in effect if you take away some of this stuff are we back to it's a wash and there's no benefit. Well you know the legislation speaks to the envelop the institutional jobs it doesn't speak to the license plate making and those kinds of things which are separate contract outside of the tax payers realm this is this is about putting in the budget money to pay inmates to do housecleaning and the things that we do in Bristol County and across the state for no money.

OK that share of Kabbalistic in our head why are you saying that's not because I'm not I don't think that that's in anyone's budget. I don't think there's any movement afoot. To have money from people's operational budgets be used to pay inmates in fact that's why I keep making the distinction this is commissary money this is not money that's coming from taxpayers. I want to make one quick point on behalf of I think the caller's name was Isabel. Isabel they have to maintain their living space. They're not being paid to maintain their living space within the unit they maintain that under penalty of disciplinary internal disciplinary action if their beds aren't made if it's not clean. We're talking about maintenance of the facilities outside of the units where they work and things like snow removal. You know literally outside of the facilities. So I just want to make sure that she understood that they were being paid just to get up and make their bed in the morning they're required to do all of that and keep their living space clean or be subject to disciplinary action. But I think we're also missing the part about who people going to jail as government action. You were sent to jail as a result of a crime that is the government

and the court system telling you that that will be the punishment for the crime. The idea that you then begin to pay for that. Is is really the imposition of a fine or a fee. Because people are doing time that they don't they obviously don't want to be doing it it's the quote I think I think you get into a really slippery slope constitutionally when you start talking about creating a system of debtors to the criminal justice system. Well let me just say this to you though but do you understand the viewpoint this year of Hodge absented is representing that people actually they don't care. There may I think you know understand I really do completely understand that because it is such an expensive system OK. I also know that it wouldn't be anywhere near as expensive if we hadn't gotten away from addiction treatment and substance abuse and recovery and decided to close all of those you know how many people what percentage of my population is there because they have problems with substance abuse. That's an entire group of people who would be substantial savings to the system if if we were able to get at those issues in those problems

before people turn to criminal behavior as a result of that. Let me let me just correct a point that the sheriff made about coming out of the budgets the state the EOC does have it in the budget. That's what I said no no I'm not I'm not yours I wasn't suggesting your budget but the state does and and the other thing is that look the idea of teaching inmates about accountability responsibility knowing where their benefits come from every day is a healthy thing for them. This this idea of charging $5 a day is not a lot of money but you know. In our prison we have a reputation and people don't want to go there. They don't want to go there because they know they're going to be held accountable they'd rather they'd rather look inmates. If I was an inmate in prison and I had a choice between going to a program open in that dark door and going in that dark room and deal with substance abuse and I had a choice between that watching TV lifting weights and playing cards and whatever else and watching TV lifting weights and playing cards I don't want to go down that dark road and I don't want to be held accountable for things and that's what happens you can

create an environment that sends a message that if you're going to commit crimes against innocent people then when you go to prison you're going to be held accountable for your time there and by the way on the on the charging issue let me just add one more thing if I can. When people go to court if they're sentenced to probation whatever it is they also have court costs associated with that. It isn't just that they got the probation or they got to whatever the judge the judge gave them in the way of a punishment on top of that they had to be responsible for that. Now I hear you about the TV and all of that but you got to know that's a that's kind of a stereotype out there that they're just like lounging around and you know they are locked up I mean and there are certain kinds of things that even you can't change because there are some rules and regulations that set by you know constitutionality as a share of cabals that our job is you know safety. Right and you know the only way I know that we as sheriffs can preserve public safety is when people come into our prisons make sure they're channeled limit their alternatives and make sure they're channeled to either sit in their cell and be bored or go to a program that's going to help them deal with their substance abuse anger management parenting whatever it is. But but not. And believe me when I took

over in our place they were sitting around watching TV. They were lifting weights all day they were hanging out and they were going to programs because they had the choice. OK. It's your job as well as word OK. You're not going to get the money from those people anyway. You are not going to get the $5 a day from people who are using the county facility as a way station before they commit another crime and go to state prison. Those people don't have the money. The people who ultimately get affected are either the people the friends and relatives depending on what the breakdown is of who gets charged. The friends relatives spouses grandparents of the people who are doing time or the people who are trying to do something with their lives and are trying to make something of a turn around and learn some of these things by participating in programs or doing work around the facility so that that's why I said I'm advocating for a thoughtful discussion and approach to this because you can't have a blanket anything it can't be about the people who sit around and lift weights we don't have we don't have that so we don't have people sitting around just kind of lifting weights. But you have to make a distinction between them and the people that are doing programs

but quite frankly you can't. Run a facility safely you don't have to worry about internal security and idle minds are definitely the devil's playground. What programs you have the more people are actively engaged in feeling as though when they get out they're going to be able to do something more positive with their life the better off they are people who are just sitting there trying to you know you can see the face in Iraq. DiMEO Oh yeah. Then you got a problem you got a problem with what they're thinking about doing when they're just sitting there and they're not engaged in somebody's life. But honestly there are people that come into our facility some with thousands of dollars in bank accounts many who've got drug dealing drugs and plenty money when they come in and some people even limousines when they're picked up so look we when somebody doesn't have money they're still debited every day for their services when they leave we give them a bill and say you know what the taxpayer but if you don't come back within two years and know it's for you write off your bill. Right. So all we're asking to do is go out and behave but the ones who do have money. Look when I was a kid I never ok for a family 30 kids I mean get Fritos and double double Twinkies in my in my lunch

because of that. Yes you are but what. Somebody raised their hand saying We want these I was the first guy up you know I did I feel like I was deprived. No but there are in this world in society the haves and the have nots and if you have and you're getting a service you're probably going have to pay. OK. And those who don't have the money. OK. But you have a you have responsibility when you get out. If you come back in before that two years we're going to take what you got your pocket applied your old Bill. Well I want to put a button on this particular discussion because I want to ask you both about court reform which was just signed by Governor Patrick to say that just to be clear that Elizabeth boerewors legislation does not addressed prisoners and long term facilities she's talking about short term facilities. She does not believe that this kind of payment or any kind of other change would be effective in the long term because it you know they're there for a long time so it's only the DRC that's using taxpayers money. I'm just you know. What did I say that you were clear about her you know her intent and her legislation so that people understand what it does affect the EOC though. OK this legislation she said short term not long term she believes that that long term is

not impactful because they were in there so long so in a way I didn't put that out there and now because this is you know right now happening news I have to get you both you're here to talk about court reform Governor Patrick just signed it. Sheriff Hodgson I'm let you start first. What do you think. Well I think there's some there's some benefits to some Cori reform. My concern obviously is the fact that we are not allowed. We being the taxpayers are not allowed. If you want a business to be able to get information that otherwise might be useful to you in making your decision in the private sector as to whether or not you want to hire somebody who might have a record and a pattern of either dealing drugs or being involved in some kind of fraud or theft or what have you so from my perspective. You know that that's always been my concern about about the court reform that that we not take away the rights of the people who own businesses to say that you're not going to be allowed to look behind that curtain and find out that this person maybe has been involved in a embezzlement or or what have you if you

don't get the job skills in prison by doing some of this work that we've talked about does that make it even more difficult for you to be take advantage of court reform as a person is trying to get his life back together or life. No question about it. And that's why we have to send a strong message that going to jail just like we're telling kids about getting involved in sexting and all these things you could possibly be labeled a sex offender for the rest your life and not get in college. We don't I don't think we watered down the laws and the rules of our society to accommodate the people who are not following along the rules and making it a penalty on the people who are following the rules and trying to run their businesses and not have people come in there that potentially could rip them off. OK Jeff. The governor signed the bill last week the Freedom House it was an excellent event I was pleased to be able to speak and pleased to be able to witness the signing. I'm no bleeding heart liberal. I was a prosecutor for 16 years and I'm telling you right now part of the issue that necessitated Cori reform is that the horse was way out of the barn before anybody realized that the information that employers were being able to get access to not just from the state but from private

data aggregators was this volume of a criminal justice record that even prosecutors when you're a new prosecutor takes just six months to learn how to read the thing. You can get five pages of something where a person has been convicted of absolutely nothing and not know that because what you're looking at list the charges and the dates people have been in there it's too confusing it's all in acronyms and initials. And you think this is a bad person and I shouldn't hire them. The Corey reform bill doesn't watered down anything all it essentially says is. There will be an appropriate point in the hiring process where an employer will be able to ask but we are going to try to ameliorate the discrimination by not having that information provided to an employer right up front on the application because people make the decision without giving the person a fair opportunity to be interviewed to see whether or not that they are qualified. There's also an educational component in this bill that educates employees as to what it is that they read and yes you should narrow down what I have. I have had record sitting on my desk as a prosecutor that were an inch thick. Only three or four pages of which I could use trial as

convictions to impeach the person the defendant was being charged because the rest of its data generated about cases. So really there is relevant information certainly to employees or ploys that need to know exactly what a person has been convicted of whether it's misdemeanor or felony. That is in the bill. You can still get access to that. What is tries to do is minimize the level of discrimination that people face for things perhaps they haven't been convicted of or things that appear to be much more serious on their record than they actually are. And it gives them the opportunity to be part of the interviewing hiring process and make a case for themselves before an employer finally makes the decision based on all of that and their record as to whether or not to hire them. OK we're going to leave it there and I just want to underscore one thing for our listeners. Murder and sex offense offense convictions remain in the system permanently so nobody is confused about that. Thank you both Eben thank you for having US military for that. Suffolk County Sheriff Andrea Corolla and Bristol County Sheriff Thomas Hodgson thank you both for joining us. And up next it's our regular Monday feature local made good. We'll talk to Susan Reddick

a recipient of the 2010 Citizens Medal from President Obama for her work as co-founder of the Needham based nonprofit organization Beyond the 11th. We'll be back after this break stay with us. Support for WGBH comes from you and from Suffolk University with strong ties to the city's business legal and educational communities offering students more than 90 academic programs. Suffolk University. Dedicated to excellence in teaching scholarship and service. And from the bequest of Samuel R. and Eleanor B Spike

are passionate supporters of WGBH radio and television. To learn more about securing the legacy of public broadcasting visit WGBH dot org slash planned giving. You're listening to eighty nine point seven WGBH Boston NPR station for news context and analysis with MORNING EDITION. The takeaway and the Diane Rehm Show explore ideas with us all day long here on the new eighty nine point seven. WGBH. August 1st the end of a dismal year for WGBH. It's a lot like the end of the month for many listeners. It's one eighty nine point seven sits down with the bills to make sure that there's

enough money to cover the costs of bringing you quality independent program. Dues to NPR production studio a special event. They're all very expensive. But if you agree that public radio is worth every penny then please get involved with a contribution before August 30 first. Just click the donate link at WGBH dot org. Why is a nine point seven. Because the way some Kenyans run about it barefoot may be better for their bodies than running in shoes because you'll only hear Marco Werman and the world on the new eighty nine point seven. WGBH radio. I'm Cally Crossley and this is the Kelly Crossley Show. It's time for our regular Monday feature local made good where we speak with people who bring honor to New England. My guest today is Susan Reddick. She's the recipient of the 2010 Citizens Medal from President Obama for her work as co-founder of the Needham based nonprofit organization Beyond the 11th. Susan founded Beyond the 11th with Patty quickly after both

women lost their husbands on September 11th. Susan Reddick what an achievement you have. Thank you very much. Thank you so much for joining us. I should mention that the civilian medal or the Citizens Medal is the second highest civilian medal that is offered through the White House to the first as the presidential medal of freedom and freedom. And I wanted to give people a sense of what President Obama said to you before we talk about your particular work and really about you and the other 12 recipients of this 2010 Citizens Medal he said. What unites the citizens what makes them special is the determination they share to find a wrong and write it. To see a need and need it to recognize when others are suffering and take it upon themselves to make a difference. These honorees live stand as shining examples of what it means to be an American. And today we have an opportunity to tell their stories to say thank you and to offer them a small token of our appreciation. Susan the thing that they wanted to emphasize with all of you who got this medal is that you're doing work that's a lot of people don't know about.

So your particular work beyond the 11th connects you with widows in Africa if in Afghanistan please tell us about it. Sure. Well after my husband David was killed on September 11th I felt the support of friends and family and even strangers from around my neighborhood around the country and even around the world and that support truly made such a difference in my being able to move forward. And during that whole year of you know that first year of trying to regain some sense of normalcy. I looked across to Afghanistan and realized that the women in Afghanistan are my sisters and they were suffering very similar things that we were and when the United States was beginning to preparing to invade Afghanistan and realizing that they were going to be more widows as a result of 9/11. I just felt a kinship and I thought you know here so many people are helping me what can I do to reach out and

help. My initial idea was to help one woman in Afghanistan and her family. And so. I told my new friend pretty quickly about this idea. She came on board and we realized we could help many more than just one woman so why not 50 or 500 and beyond the 11 came to be our mission is twofold. It's to raise money so that we can give to and GEOS non-governmental organizations that focus on income generating generating programs so the women can learn a skill. Take literacy classes and potentially become independent. Being able to send their girls specifically and their boys to school. And we believe that's really. Hello Afghanistan is going to change but if we change and we build itself and the second part of the mission is to raise awareness for the plight of widows in Afghanistan because I don't think everybody here in the United States realizes how difficult it is to be a woman in Afghanistan and the unique challenges that a widow faces.

Tell us a specific way in which you know your your money has gone to help. Sure one of the programs that we gave to was through CARE International. We gave to a poultry Baron program where women received a certain number of chickens chicken feed materials to build a chicken coop and you know chickens lay eggs and the women were able to sell the eggs and earn an income. And the beauty of this program. I had an opportunity to go to Afghanistan and visit and see firsthand the beauty of the program is that a woman can sell an egg to a neighbor to a friend. They don't have to go to a market and set up a stand because women are still not allowed to do that. And so it was something that they could easily do and it doesn't take all day. And so they could find other work outside of that program and so it was very sick. It's been very successful. So you're talking about women who are in extreme poverty as your as your website. Oh it was extreme poverty. These women you know everyone we visited lived in a one

room run one room home. With multiple family members no furniture to speak of no electricity no running water the basic basics is what they were getting by on a lot of people might say. Susan are you a little bit naive. I mean this is a just huge problem. I mean and we've just over this weekend seen some horrific things happening in of Afghanistan. You know 10 volunteers have been working there for years accused of trying to convert people never ganna stand to Christianity but they've been they've been doing what you are doing giving their all to a cause they believe in. How do you answer that. Well of course I am one person and organization is a small organization. We're not going to change the world I don't think that my work is going to completely turn around Afghanistan and you know terrorism will no longer exist. But my feeling is everybody has to do something. And I know without a shadow of a

doubt that when I raise a certain amount of money and I give it to specific programs I know there will be women and their children who will then become whole. And I know. That that woman will have food in her belly and a roof over her head and clothes on her back. Does that mean I can help all of a million widows. Absolutely not. But if I can help one to me I can rest easy at night. And so I try and help as many people through be on the 11th that we can. You know clearly you know I wish we could help everybody but that would be naive. You know he can only do what you can do. I looked at the documentary called Beyond the 11th a little clip of it and there was a guy in there saying listen you know why don't you support the U.S. troops or widows here. You know why those women women in Afghanistan. Right. We you know there are so many programs set up here in the United States to help the victims of September 11th

and military and I applaud all of them and I think that that is wonderful. And I think whatever your passion is go for it and if that somebody is passion then I applaud them and say go for it. For me my passion is helping these women and widows in Afghanistan. And so I just feel like they don't have a voice you know you see the pictures of women. Covered from head to toe in the burka where they literally like can't see out when half the population is wearing a burka. They are silenced. They are not to be seen they are not to be heard. How on earth can a country accomplish anything when half its population is silent. That's my passion. Tell us about what it feels like to make that widow to Widow connection I mean you've had that kind of experience in addition to the reaching out. That's something that many of us have not had.

Well you know here in the United States when I was widowed I was able to stay in my home. My kids continued to go to the same schools. But in Afghanistan when a woman is widowed her property does not. When a man is killed or dies. Their property does not go to the wife instead it goes to his male relatives so it oftentimes leaves her homeless. So on those levels where you couldn't be more different you know the things that we take for granted here in the United States. I'm not going to say oh we're all the same it all fit. But the basic the one where it becomes Couper the woman to woman it doesn't matter what country you're born in it doesn't matter what religion you are it doesn't matter if you're rich or poor. We as women and as the matriarchs of our family we want peace and security for our children. We want health we want happiness we want education we want medicine. It's basic it is purely basic. And so knowing what it's like to lose the love of my life and someone that I cared so deeply about in the father of my children doesn't make my pain any different than somebody across an

ocean. So I know that one of the things that you're most proud of with this attention that the medal is brought is that you're bringing attention to the fund raising. So tell us what it was like to stand in the White House and be honored and to know that this is going to go somewhere beyond you. Right. It was a thrilling unbelievable experience I never in a million years expected to for the president of the United States to ever utter my name out loud to shake his hand it was an incredible experience. And you know like I've said it's an honor and a privilege and I will cherish those moments forever. But really the whole idea of being recognized by the president just means to me that President Obama recognizes the importance of women in Afghanistan. And I just hope that he continues to keep in mind the women when he you know figures out their entire military strategy and I hope continues to give aid. In other things other than military

where is the medal and what does it look like. My husband keeps telling me I need to put it somewhere safe. The metal is it's actually like three little three medals. It's like on a pin. I can get it scribing but I have it tucked safely away right now. Well congratulations to you it's quite an honor. Thank you very much. I've been speaking with and talking with Susan Reddick. She's a recipient of the 2010 Citizens Medal from President Obama for her work as co-founder of the Needham based nonprofit organization Beyond the 11th. To learn more about her work visit beyond the eleventh dot org. She was one of 13. We're very proud to have you be a local made good. Thank you very much. OK. This is the Calla Crossley Show where production of WGBH radio Boston NPR station for news and culture.