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I'm Cally Crossley and this is the Cali Crossley Show. More than 40 years ago anti-war protests led to the ban of ROTC at some of the nation's most exclusive universities and the long lasting effect created perceptible societal rifts. A deep wedge between America's military and many of its elite institutions. Flash forward to the 21st century and in the aftermath of 9/11 the attitude on campus sees military service as a path to becoming a model citizen. With this philosophical shift underway why do so many of the nation's Ivy League schools continue to resist the presence of Rothsay programs. This hour we'll sort through the razzi dilemma from there we meet Denise Anderson a mother from Mansfield who fought to pass legislation that allows parents of fallen soldiers to be buried with their children and with a look at how Hollywood has portrayed war veterans over the decades. Up next Veterans Day. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi saying Americans around the

world are honoring those who sacrifice for their country. This Veterans Day is marked with parades memorials and wreath laying ceremony for fallen service members. A huge explosion heard for miles has rocked the Pakistani port of karate. A building housing senior police officials investigating serious crime was targeted killing at least 15 people wounding 100 others and trapping many under the rubble from Islamabad NPR's Julie McCarthy has details kharaj Crime Investigation Department has been all but demolished television images from the scene show chaos in the area plunged into darkness as ambulances ferry the dead in wounded away. Government officials of the Sindh province said a suicide attacker rammed the police building with a bomb laden car. The targeted facility houses a detention center that was believed to be holding criminals and possibly militants. High profile interrogations of terror suspects were conducted in the destroyed police complex that lies in a highly

sensitive area of the city. Analysts are calling the blast a serious lapse in security not far from the explosion is the heavily fortified U.S. consulate. Luxury hotels and residence of the chief minister and the governor of Sindh province. Julie McCarthy NPR News Islamabad. Israel's prime minister says he is serious about talks with the Palestinians. Meeting with Secretary of State Hillary Clinton in New York Netanyahu sought to reassure the Obama administration which has been looking for a way to revive the peace process. More from NPR's Michele Kelemen. During a brief photo opportunity Prime Minister Netanyahu said he and Secretary Clinton are talking about ways to continue talks to reach as he put it a historic agreement with the Palestinians and also who brought me to. Many other Arab countries. This is our. Common goal. Were quite serious about doing the we. Want to get on with direct talks broke down over the issue of Israeli settlement building. Just this week Clinton criticize Israel for announcing new housing plans in a sensitive

area of Jerusalem. She didn't speak publicly about that in New York today saying only she and Netanyahu are talking about how to move forward. Michele Kelemen NPR News Washington skepticism over the latest round of Israeli-Palestinian peace talks permeates a major day in the West Bank where thousands are commemorating the sixth anniversary of the death of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat. The authorities President Mahmoud Abbas told a large gathering that Israelis should choose peace over West Bank settlements. Negotiations are at a standstill after Israel said it would not stop settlement construction in the West Bank in East Jerusalem territories the Palestinians want for their state. The Obama administration has warned Israel that expansion jeopardizes the Jewish state's chances of living peacefully alongside a Palestinian state. This is NPR News. A cruise ship stranded at sea for days is finally home. KAYE PBS is Tom fudge reports thousands of passengers and crew members aboard the Carnival Splendor have

arrived at San Diego's Harbor to the sound of cheers. People have been hooting and hollering and a lot of people have been kind of hooting from the ship and waving down to the crowd there must be about 500 people hanging around here on Harbor Drive in San Diego so it's a very festive environment. Tom fudge of member station KPCC several tug boats pull the vessel to Port three days after the ship stalled following an engine room fire. Film producer Dino De Laurentiis has died over the course of a colorful career spanning more than half a century. He helped make movies that range from Italian classics to epic Hollywood flops. NPR said it will be hazardous. He helped launch the career of Federico Fellini with movies like the Stata. That film won him an Oscar but he's also responsible for films like Barbarella and man dingo. Miss BLIGH I know you're a man. This must be a huge task.

Dino de la Renta Sapir to gloss over the distinction between art and trash. Occasionally he found a middle ground. He had a part in movies ranging from Blue Velvet to the remake of King Kong to the unfortunate Madonna vehicle body of evidence. Ultimately he told NPR in 2002 it was about selling feelings. The audience You must they leave with a diligence emotion. Dino De Laurentiis died early Thursday morning in Los Angeles. He was 91 years old. Neda Ulaby NPR News. I'm Lakshmi Singh NPR News in Washington. Support for NPR comes from the Overbrook foundation supporting Catalog Choice dot org a nonprofit service that allows customers to decide which catalogs to receive in the mail. That afternoon I'm Kalee Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show. Today we're turning the entire hour over to Veterans Day and we're starting the conversation with another edition of thinking out loud where we invite people on the show to give their take on our

times. Joining me is Shawn Wilkes. He's a founding member of the Columbia University branch of advocates for ROTC. He's currently enrolled at Harvard where he's a member of the Harvard advocates for ROTC. He served four years active duty from 2006 to 2010 and he was deployed to Afghanistan and to Africa. Sean Wilks welcome. Thank you. So what is advocates for or ATC. So it's an organization it's actually a large umbrella group of individual organizations students and alumni at universities mostly throughout the Northeast Columbia Harvard Yale also a small group over at Stanford and really trying to build. Better relationships between universities in the military particularly those universities that have had a trying history with RTC programs and in specific to deal with that. Of course these are your all naming elite institutions so we're talking about elite institutions that have had as you say trying histories with ROTC. Yes. So why is it important to have

ROTC on these campuses. Well it really from from my perspective I got involved you know as an undergraduate while at Columbia because I saw this sort of disconnect between the students and between the institution and what was going on immediately after September 11th. And really it was a matter of civic mindedness looking at the institution and how much you know how much that institution Columbia and you know to some degree Harvard as well as involved in producing you know next generation leaders you know many of our presidents senators etc. come from these institutions. And so for those institutions that are known to produce so many of this country's leaders to not have any sort of relationship with with the military and to have you know this image you know whether or not it's an accurate image of. Being opposed or being anti-military wasn't wasn't very good thing wasn't productive and you know it sort of led to the perception that you know these quote unquote academic elite were

completely removed from the realities of you know everyday Americans and you know particularly those who are serving in the military. So so we wanted to to sort of mend that gap and one of the ways we thought we could do this was by trying to bring RTC back to these campuses. They're talking about the best and the brightest being available for leadership in the military. Right. OK. So the response to you on campus and to me because Harvard doesn't allow RTC on campus but you can train up at MIT and there are others who can go to what they call satellite campuses where the training is going on. But there's been a difference as you mentioned 9/11 is a shift in the way people think about the military. Even folks who are attending elite institutions you talk about that a little bit. Absolutely. Well you know on these campuses obviously there's a certain degree of increased interest in in RTC and serving in the military mainly after September 11th as as you might expect. And there are students there who are looking for opportunities at

Harvard. Obviously you can go to MIT to train to join the RTC program there at Columbia you can go to Fordham which is up in the Bronx or for the army or Manhattan College. Again in the Bronx for the Air Force. And we know what we were trying to do was you know bring them closer to home and try to increase the opportunities that are available to students there. What do people say when they know that you're in ROTC. You know if I did use on campus or actually generally positive I have really had any you know any problems or any you know every once in a while especially immediately after September 11 the media after the invasion of Iraq there are some protests and whatnot but generally speaking all of the interactions have been you know ranging from just you know curiosity to you know great encouragement. So I've really had a bad experience especially among students there. So the idea that these campuses are inherently anti military it's a perception that exists. I think it's wrong.

And that's part of what we want to do is we want to demonstrate that you know these campuses and the students on these campuses many of them are very patriotic many of them do want to serve and many of them even those who don't want to serve are you know very supportive of those who do. So is it fair to say there's kind of a bifurcated response on the one hand there may be people saying like war is not good. I'd like for us to get out of Afghanistan for example where you were deployed. But at the same time I appreciate your service. I understand and appreciate what the military is doing so you're going to have a both things going on at the same time. Absolutely that's generally what we saw and you know the opinions on campuses particularly among students vary widely. You know you have Democrats you Republicans you have libertarians it's you know very most of these campuses in particular are extraordinarily diverse in terms of the opinions and student body in general so a wide ranging of wide ranging opinions exist there. And we really wanted to see you know one of the benefits of that is you know. If we were able to produce more officers from these campuses they would be introduced to those ideas and introduced to those wide ranging

opinions and so we thought that was a benefit to the military in that we wanted to bring you know our student body and our campus to the military in that sense. OK so let's so that our listeners know what happened was the RTC was asked to move off these campuses during around 1989 where there were full blown anti-war protests. And now what has happened more recently is that campuses like Harvard where you're a grad student have said listen we're not going to allow RTC back on campus until Don't Ask Don't Tell is revoked. So you there were two different things happening but the effect is the same no RTC training on campus. What do you think about this it seems to be a general move listen Secretary Gates has said that he's not in favor of don't ask don't tell he's ready for it to be revoked so it's only a matter of time. So way after that then will we see ROTC on these campuses. I'm honestly not sure. I would love to see hard to see on these campuses. I think that the you know movement to get rid of Don't Ask Don't Ask Don't Tell is a very positive thing.

You know part of the issue is whether or not the military is actually interested in coming back to these campuses you know. It really is an issue both the universities and the military. You know even going back all the way to 1968 in 1969 you know the they were the programs were I want to be forced out but they were encouraged to leave by by changes that the universities took in terms of how they treated courses how they treated how they appointed professors they are to see the heads of there to be programmers professors and how they gave whether or not they grant of course credit that sort of thing. And then obviously the change today is much more focused on Don't Ask Don't Tell. So if Don't Ask Don't Tell is gone then you know you you may go back to those original arguments of whether or not RTC should be back whether or not our program should be granted credit whether or not the. The professors of military science should be granted academic appointments in the universities. I think

these issues can be worked out. They are obviously already have a number of other institutions at MIT for example the head of the RTC program there is given a guest of his or her professorship at Princeton the head of the Army ROTC program there is a director of military education so there are ways to get around these you know sort of administrative issues as to what part the program plays in the overall university structure. But that would have to be worked out between the military and the universities. Now where some disagreement has happened is that when universities take federal money they are subject to certain kinds of rules and regulations so. Sensibly if Harvard takes federal money and takes some then they shouldn't be able to say no matter even if Don't Ask Don't Tell is an issue that ROTC cannot come on campus and yet the military hasn't sanctioned Harvard or Yale or anybody else in this line up and Harvard sort of is. Some suggest hiding behind the fig

leaf don't it. Well what do you think about that and in fact you know my next guess coming up is written a piece about that saying there is no ban per se because I thought there was a ban. There is no ban. This is all a myth that both sides are continuing to hold up. Yeah I think I think bam probably is not the most accurate word perhaps bar because the universities did change back this is back in the 60s 68 69. The university did change its policy and said that you know you see the heads of the RC program would have to be vetted like any other professor. Military disagree with this largely in part because of the 1964 our civilization Act which mandates that that the professors the heads of the RTC program be cut be given faculty appointments so in effect the programs had to follow the law of the land of the time. And so when the universities changed their processes and their. Policies in terms of the art

program it sort of lead lead the RC programs to believe number these campuses and other campuses like at Princeton and MIT they were able to work the problems out. So you know that large that's largely a matter of the past because Don't Ask Don't Tell has become the focus today once Don't Ask Don't Tell is no longer an issue I think those you know those matters can be again discussed. But you know again it will take the military and the the military in the universities coming together. Another issue is whether or not the military is interested. You know from a financial standpoint I mean is it worth having a program a separate program at Harvard. When there's already a program at MIT which is you know 10 15 minutes away. So what's the point of creative continuing holding up this what those of us who knew nothing thought was a band I mean why I hold that up why don't explain it as you've just explained so well there are some issues but it's not really a band.

Well we we do want schools like Harvard and Columbia to officially recognize the RTC and officially recognize the students as our two students we want them to develop a close relationship. And right now they they've made some inroads and I think you know largely in part because of the students. You see President Faust his and your president Harvard University has been at the commissioning ceremonies for the Harvard cadets and midshipmen for every year for the past couple of years. You know they invited General Petraeus to campus and he two years ago and he actually commissioned the cadets for that particular class. And so the relationship has been you know building between between the universities and arts programs even though they are off campus. We would like to see more integration we'd like to see more give and take between the universities and these RTC programs at Columbia which is in New York City the issues a little bit different. Because well for one that there's slightly more geographic distance between the

programs between Lumbee and the Fordham and Manhattan College programs but two it's also it sort of sets within this larger framework of the military in the Northeast and the fact of the military the military's changing demographics and the fact that the military has tended to be moving away from the northeast and the West Coast and you know into the south. And so that sort of fits into that broader framework and trying to increase the number of programs and opportunities for students in New York City in general. OK. I just want to make clear that you're supporting your point about President fails attending the ceremonies. Harvard University also had staff members who raise money from wealthy alumni who are sympathetic to ROTC. Harvard accepts about a million dollars from the military in the form of scholarships to cover the cost of tuition for cadets and midshipmen and also at the Kennedy School of Government there's a year long national securities Fellows program. So just to be clear that is not you know when we're talking about

university as Harvard and other universities wrestle with Don't Ask Don't Tell. There are some very supportive initiatives already in place. There are and. Progress in progress has been made you know when the advocates for ATC groups started you know bet back in the 90s there was less of that there's less of this close relationship so I think it in part because of folks like the advocates in part because of veterans on campus in part because of cadets on campus. These relationships have been built and have grown thanks to the willingness between you know parts of the universe the university is not a monolithic entity there's many different components it's you know a very decentralized and so part of the university and the RTC programs and other military organizations have developed these relationships these close relationships they think have benefited both the university and the nation as a whole. Well I think we'll be seeing RTC maybe on Harvard's campus in the next few years. Thank you John Wilkes. Thank you very much John Wilkes is a founding member of the Columbia University branch of advocates for ROTC. He's currently enrolled at Harvard where he's a member of the Harvard advocates for ROTC. He served four years active duty from 2006 to 2010. Thanks again. Thank you.

Now for a different take on this topic we turn to Diane maser. She's a professor of law at the University of Florida and a former Air Force officer. Her latest book is a more perfect military Dianne maser. Welcome. Thank you very much. KELLY It's a pleasure to talk to you because you wrote a very interesting piece that certainly opened my eyes and I was just talking to Shawn about it. Your piece for The New York Times is called the ROTC myth letting us know that there is no real ban on these campuses banning ROTC. That in fact it's something that it's a weird thing that both the universities and the military just let everybody let the rest of us believe it's happening why is that. You can only explain why persist by assuming that somebody must get something out of it. And I think that the military benefits in some strange sense from this because it prevents

peace. Go from asking questions like well does the military really want to increase it. It's Rotty footprint in universities throughout the Northeast. Would it be happier in the south and the West. But as long as people can say oh well there's a ban. Well then that takes the military off the hook for having to ask those questions and I think that that universities buy into the mist a little bit because it keeps them from having to answer tougher questions like well why don't you for instance want to work to have some way to have privacy on campus even with Don't Ask Don't Tell and they can say well it wasn't my problem. We apparently have a ban. Yeah and they and they really don't. But saying you have. The ban keeps them from having I think to have a larger conversation.

Now what happens when don't ask don't tell goes away because it's very close to going away. Then maybe I think someone will have to say let's have a conversation we're going to find out a lot of interesting things at that point. We're going to find out first of all whether universities really do want to reinvest in this this very important civil military commitment which I hope they do. They should and will also find out whether the military really wants to invest in this very important civil military commitment. And I don't know that they really do. I don't know that the military has a great interest in reintroducing itself into these northeastern campuses. Again I think it should. Well what's interesting is that I read a blog by someone who is very unhappy with your article. And I'm just going to quote this because this person seems to take your article to mean that you know Harvard and Yale and Columbia set themselves up as being intellectually superior so they don't have to. Have you no low life military on campus. Here's a quote from the

piece. And we should just bite our tongues while Harvard University quietly takes in excess of 400 million dollars each year from the American taxpayer in federal government research grant money in defiance of federal law or in fact by legally trading the razor thin tightrope of allowing marginal recruiting but no ROTC chorus recognition or course accreditation. So this is person is pretty angry about this perceived myth band whatever we're calling it now. And man are you saying that you should make clear that they're taking this money and get away with it. If that person is absolutely right that if there is a law that closes universities to forfeit federal funding if they either prevent military recruiting on campus. This where they prevent the establishment of a detachment. That's right. The military has been very meticulous about enforcing its right to recruit and in fact it calls at universities who believe they're interfering with those rights. And it

took those universities all the way to the Supreme Court and it won. I don't think the military shy at all about enforcing its rights under federal law. And so I think it's quite telling that there have been no challenges. There have been no lawsuits about ROTC and the problem is that you need the military to have an interest in returning to these campuses before you can even begin to consider whether there's some kind of. Of a hand there there is not in fact any ban. And the reason we don't have to press that in any funding sense or legal sense is that the military truly has no interest at this time in being at those campuses. And yet ROTC stands for Reserve Officer Training Corps meaning officer leadership and my guest who just left who is head of something called advocates for ROTC says it's important if symbolically

and practically to have that recruiting on campus they have those courses on campus to develop that leadership among the best and the brightest. Do you think that's important. I think that absolutely without doubt correct. If I was in charge of the university I was in charge of universities I would do everything I could to bring Rotty on campus with a military agreement and and. Interest Of course but I do everything I can to get Razzi on campus because I think that universities can do or to change policies like Don't Ask Don't Tell in cooperative relationship with the military. Then they can do it at an arm's length relationship with the military that I think universities are their own worst enemy sometimes on these on these issues that you get more when you have a closer relationship with the military than they than they do now. Well on this Veterans Day that is definitely food for thought thank you so much Diane Mazower.

Absolutely it was great pleasure. Diane Missouri is a professor of law at the University of Florida and a former Air Force officer she's also the legal co-director of the Palm Center at U.C. Santa Barbara. Up next we hear from Ed Walsh a former Marine First Lieutenant turned actor. Stay with us. Support for WGBH comes from you and from Boston private banking Trust Company Boston private bank provides private and commercial banking and investment management and trust services to individuals and businesses. You can learn more by visiting Boston private bank dot com and from the 14th annual Boston International fine art show hosting a special evening with ninety nine point five Laura Carlo Friday November 19th from 6 to 9 p.m. at the cyclorama. Info at ninety nine 5 all classical dot org and from Skinner auctioneers and appraisers of antiques and fine art. You might consider auction when downsizing a home or disposing of an estate. 60 auctions annually 20 collecting

categories Boston in Marlborough online at Skinner Inc dot com. On the next FRESH AIR we talk with Dexter Filkins who's covering the war in Afghanistan for The New York Times. He recently broke the story that President Hamid Karzai's government gets bags of money from Iran. I'm Terry Gross. Join us for the next FRESH AIR. This afternoon it to an eighty nine point seven at UVA. Hi I'm Brian O'Donovan host of a Celtic soldier ninety nine point seven WGBH and if you haven't done so already I hope you'll reserve your tickets to join me at the eighth anywhere presentation of A Christmas Celtic sojourn this year. The show is travelling all over New England with performances in Northampton Boston Providence Rhode Island. And Portsmouth New Hampshire purchase your tickets online at WGBH dot org slash.

Donovan. Come join me every Saturday at 3 for a good old fashioned session on a Celtic sojourn on a 9.7 WGBH. Good afternoon I'm Cally Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show. Today we are marking Veterans Day with three different takes on what it means to go to war. Last month I spoke with Ed Walsh a former Marine First Lieutenant who went from combat in Iraq to the American Repertory theater's cabaret. He discussed how being a Marine made him a better actor and how acting has helped him take the edge off the trauma of war. I began the conversation by asking Ed why he decided to join the military went to the Marines. June 3rd 2001 I went to officer candidate school in Quantico Virginia. I went back to when it was between my junior and senior year of college I went back to school

finished up got my commission and then I went active duty. And you ended up in Iraq. Correct. Twice. What was that like. It was an interesting experience. It was. For lack of better words it's kind of tough to describe for someone who's never been there. I've talked to a number of veterans and they say you know that it's actually best expressed through art.. You know because just or other people who've had the experience but others and it's a little tough to begin a conversation about. Yeah. So I understand that. Now let's talk about your other experience that has sort of come together and that's acting. So you were interested in this long before the Marine Corps. Yeah I started acting in around seventh grade and it was just something that was always with me and was kind of a weird kid because I would play football and then at night I would go act. What were you what kind of plays were you and what kind of.

I was a community theater type stuff. Initially I did children's theater. You did the classics Greeks and some Shakespeare things like that and then moving on to college doing some more modern stuff. And somebody may have pointed out to you that one of the characters in Glee is a football player who isn't really a singer. Well there you have it all right. I think we're everywhere you're everywhere. So OK so there you were with that interest. Seventh grade my goodness that was well before college but you took a left or right and ended up in the military. Why. It was that's another thing that's always been with me I've always been fascinated by the military the Marines specifically. I have my uncles three of them were Marines two were in Vietnam and one was a Marine during the 80s and for whatever reason it was nothing that was ever forced upon me it's just something that I just found very interesting and appealed to me and I started researching and found out that the Marines offered this program called platoon leadership class where it's 10 weeks the summer before your senior year they hammer you know the ground they kick your

butt and then you're allowed to either once successfully completed you can either accept a commission and become an active duty Marine or you can just say no thank you. It really wasn't my thing I'm going to go do something else. All the other services once you complete O C S require you to go in. So you know you had those opportunities and you made a choice and then you came back to kind of well maybe your first love seven Yeah that would be your first love. And here you are on the stage at the American Repertory Theater this is no small thing. Lots of famous folks have been there yeah. And you're playing an interesting part because Ed you're wearing heels. Oh my legs look great. I mean when you wear heels you're like great. Yeah but I mean it's just it's opposite the view that one has of the few the proud the Marines right. I mean a little bit a little bit. People ask me about that. You know how can you be in these two separate worlds and I always tell them it's actually quite similar. Both require a very specific

mindset as far as physical and mental discipline and also that willingness to do things that normal people consider crazy. How does each inform the other How does acting inform you know might have informed what you did in the Marines and how did your experience in the Marines inform what you're doing now with acting acting and for the Marines with media we saw when I got there with the high level of theatricality especially with your drill and especially with vocal support being able to address everyone and I've never met a I never met a general or a gunnery sergeant who didn't know how to get their point across to you in the shortest amount of time possible and you completely understand what they're saying. And so that's acting you think and that that definitely definitely shares with the acting. And then with the Marines going into the acting I guess you say it provided just a larger base of experience from which I worked with as far as having been in the world live the life and.

Knowing just how some things work and how some things just don't sort of the best way I can explain it I feel you always you know get nervous when you go on stage but from the experience of the Marines I've learned how to control a lot of it I try to channel it into a better sort of use whatever fear there is and try to channel into a constructive and constructive way. I would say that's a big thing you know Barbra Streisand has long suffered from stage fright so I mean these they're major actors and that's a big deal just trying to get that under control and you can do their craft. How did this acting help you in terms of reentry into civilian life. It's helped me in the past couple of years specifically being in that the second year Institute student. And it's helped me as far as giving me something to do every day. Really. Disciplined like that I'm going basically this I didn't realize when I got the Marines just exactly how regimented I had become and how much I needed something every day to do that's one of them for sure the pitfalls of being an actor in America or an actor in

general is that you're going to have a lot of time on your hands and with this program though. I get to work on my craft every day work on the physical aspect of being an actor as well as the voice and integrate it into sort of one being for the stage. Now I know you said as far as the experience in Iraq it's hard to describe but well how do you describe the emotional experience of being an actor. The emotional experience of being in some ways it's kind of similar. There are those moments of you know complete boredom where you boredom that turns into being frightened because you hopefully are doing something correctly. Maybe the audience is pulling it along with you. Being on stage it's a wonderful feeling knowing that you know you're telling a story and the audience is with you you can sort of feel that energy there that they're you know they maybe not might be laughing with what's going on but at the same time you can sort of feel every all the eyes are on you and they're following you.

It's kind of satisfying. Is there a role that you can think of that might channel those experiences or what you felt in Iraq. You know on the stage I I looked and saw that there were a number of jarheads that were Marines that went on to becoming actors Glynne for Tyrone Power Steve McLean Drew Carey David Garrett and Chuck Connors and George C. Scott. I mean you're in good company. Yeah. Humbled by that company. But is there a role that you could see that takes advantage of what you know intuitively about being a Marine that you know you might play out some of them you know off the top of my head and I know being out there for whatever reason coming to my head Richard the Third. I'm sorry to say. Oh ok seems like something that I wouldn't into a living now as far as being a military leader but then someone who you know unfortunately goes to the dark side and decides to take power from self. Oh ok I don't know why they just came to my head. So in the program that you're at it.

You said your second year I don't know how long it is in general it's about a two year program or so with two and a half years we were associated with the Moscow our theater in Russia and so we started last two summers ago. The Russian professors came in and begin working with us and sort of the Russian method as far as movement voice and sort of their acting style. And then we work with the American professors and then from there we go to Russia and spend three months and while there we perform a show for the Russian for the Moscow audiences. And what are you looking forward to after this experience and then on to your life as an actor. Looking forward to hopefully being able to pay my bills as an actor. OK. You know that's just trying to go from whatever sort of the next job is and hopefully it'll be something that I can be happy of and proud of and ultimately find fulfilling something you can say to that kid who's thinking well. I like to read and an actor. That.

That's exactly right and right exactly name of our daughter. Joe Harvey Keitel Hey you got Do you have the list. That was Ed Walsh I spoke to him last month. He is a second year student at Institute for Advanced theater training at Harvard University. He starred as Victor one of the cabaret dancers in Cabaret. He served as an officer in the Marines in Fallujah Iraq until December 2006. Up next it's film contributor Garen daily on Hollywood's portrayal of war veteran Stay with us. Support for WGBH comes from you. And from Boston Private Bank and Trust Company. Committed to helping successful individuals and businesses accumulate. Preserve and grow their wealth. You can learn

more at Boston. Private Bank dot com. And from a new window Natick featuring Hunter Douglas window treatments including silhouette luminescent and pirouetted. In new window staff can help you select the right Hunter Douglas products and will measure and install them in you window. Dot com. And from the New England mobile book fair in Newton. For 53 years New England's independent bookstore. The New England mobile book fair find them online at any book fair dot com. That's an e-book fair dot com. Next time on the world veterans organizations are getting older and emptier World War 2 vets are concerned. Well I'm afraid it will when we leave. You know when we leave. The earth there Card who's going to replace us. Members of the Royal Canadian Legion struggle to recruit younger veterans to remember the wars and the sacrifice. That's next time on the world. Coming up at 3 o'clock here at eighty nine point seven WGBH. When you visit WGBH org right now you can catch up on the day's news

listen to a variety of great music and register to win an incredible five nights. In. A way Ira. Kindly donated by 10 and tours. This trip includes lush accommodations at the same point a park guided tours of some of the most visited sites. And a traditional Irish breakfast to help kick start every day. Enter the drawing and learn more about the trip at WGBH org. Join classical music host Laura Carlo at the 14th annual Boston International fine art show. It's a benefit for ninety nine point five all classical Friday November 19th from 6 to 9 o'clock at the cyclorama info at WGBH dot org. I'm Cally Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley day of Dolly Crossley sure. It is Veteran's Day so it's a good time to talk about Hollywood's portrayal of war veterans and who better to talk about that with Ngaire and daily our contributor Aaron Daly is a film critic and host of the gerund Daily Show on 15 50 W in t n and

ours today. How you doing. I'm doing fine. Let's dive right in. Overall how does Hollywood portray the lives of returning veterans. It really depends on the era we're talking about. For instance if you take a look at you know the post world war one versus the post World War Two versus Vietnam versus Iraq and I have in Afghanistan it really does vary and it varies also. And how the country as a whole is dealing with that war for instance and World War 2 the entire country was geared towards that war. And so we all felt the impact of the sacrifices of not only the boys and girls who were going to war but also on the home front with the Iraq war. We don't have that at all because we don't really feel that we don't feel because you know we are insulated when we had the Vietnam War we felt that because we were well freeing for me anyways I was of draftable age. And so we all had a stake in what was going on that we

were disconnected. So how they would actually has changed. Change the their viewpoint based on those kind of factors. And it gets even a little weirder when you think about that. The films about World War 1 were made after World War 1. The films of World War 2 were made after World War 2. Same thing with primarily with Vietnam but the war about Iraq the films about the war in Iraq are being made as the war is going on. So there's a really a kind of a different look at what Hollywood is doing. So you get it in one sense you get a chance to look back on those other films and in the the ones that we're dealing with now you're in the middle of it so it's just it's more experience perhaps and more immediate and more and we're also looking at those questions that we're trying to find answers to because one of the things about movies they're the flagship for our American culture they really are. And when we want to have a discussion we talk about movies first and then we start looking at what they ask us about what's going on

inside our own culture. Now you talked about World War 2 and I think for me and a lot of people we know this classic film The Best Years of Our Lives. So I want to give listeners a chance to hear a little bit of it. This is from the 1046 film The Best Years of Our Lives which is about three World War Two veterans who return home to a small town city Kabul. The story was told that the quickest way to have a couple of drinks and then we can go home. You are all no good. Saw. Soccer work. Next to me. Now you can't help but feel pretty good about that. Well yes but we really do need to kind of set it up. First of all

Homer is played by Harold Russell a South Shore resident who lost both of his hands in the war. And this is the only film that he ever made of any note and he plays with prosthetics on his hand and it's on his hands because he has no hands. He's coming back as a physically damaged veteran. And the other two guys who you heard in that cab are two other veterans and they have damage as well the entire film is how these three damaged veterans start dealing with the process of being reintegrated into society. What's very interesting about the best years of our life for us all what a ton of Oscars Harold won Oscar for best supporting actor. But at the end it's all about that reintroduction back into community where there's a wedding and the three men have been brought mostly by the women in their lives back into society. But it ends with a wedding which is probably as a communal or a festival or a rite of passage as possible. You don't see that in the films

coming out about Iraq and that's a very interesting distinction when you think about because again it's 1946 and we are hoping as a country back then that we are going to be able to get back to the way things were. Now let's talk about that whole community feel is that a theme that we see running through even though there may be different responses in the in the fictionalized plots is community a big part of war films. Huge absolutely huge. And you have to think about it for instance take take some are Full Metal Jacket which you know is not necessarily about Viet Vets coming back but it's about how a sergeant strips away the community or their basics. Structure of a person's life and then they will build them back up in a military mode. The military becomes their community and that is really an important part. It's like you know Steven Spielberg's HBO series Band of Brothers where it's all talking about that connection because the community that they knew weather was back on the farm when I was back in Brooklyn were

wherever it was has been completely changed and they're now all military. So this whole community of Band of Brothers feeling it was really interesting we explored in one thousand eighty nine adaptation of Henry the Fifth starring Kenneth Branagh now and here in the fifth sense centers around the English kings bloody conquest of France and then the scene we hear King Henry the fifth's St. Crispin's Day speech which is the grandfather of all morale boosting speeches. Man forget that all shall be forgot but he'll remember with advantages what sea did back day and tsunami is familiar in their mouths as household words. Howdy the king. But an excerpt of what I am told but Soulsby I'm gonna stop flowing. Cops specially remember this story. Shell a good man teaches some. I'm Crispin crispy and shall ne'er go by from a stare down am going all the way. Oh but we. We

shall be a member. So what do you know what a build up of community I mean if you know what that I mean first I mean the rest of us. I don't know if I heard it or not but if he does say we happy band of brothers Exactly and that is where that phrase comes from that we that we see so often. And we're talking about war films. But the one thing that that's that's that's an exploitation to battle. And he talks about guess what later we will be remembering this really really funny. But that transition in the middle of going from seeing unspeakable horrors and committing atrocities that we've been told all through our life that we should not be doing what we do in the name of protecting our families protecting our country. Those atrocities still have to be integrated into our souls who are what However you feel inside. And that is what we see and a lot of films that transition is something that is difficult and tension ridden and Hollywood does try to approach it.

I think a really good film that does this well is the 1902 film first blood. This is starring Sylvester Stallone as Rambo. And in this scene Stallone's character an unstable Vietnam vet is fed up with the way civilians are treating him. Upon his return from war. Goes back to the airport. Does that mean I didn't. Call you baby killing all kinds of vile crap. Who protests me. Ah who the left. Me a bit there. I know what I like a lot about. It's a bad time for everyone ramble. It's all in the past now for you. Dummies of the religious nuts I. Feel we have a code of honor. You watch my back I want yours. But actually that's nothing. You're the last elite group. DOn't END IT LIKE THIS like to think of like you and shit like you try to take those in charge a million dollar equipment back your job to hold a job. Good.

I find that to be very poignant where is everybody. It is a I mean you know when you think of Stallone and you think of the subsequent sequels of that because that's the very first one. And you think about Rambo and how overblown and muscle bound it was. This is a really good film. There are some things that are interesting in first of all the whole idea about spitting at babies and coming up that as it turned out was one of those popular myths almost an urban myth. But the fact of the matter is there's a. There's a sort of back of a singer in the 70s and 80s there was a wonderful TV show called Lou Grant and Lou Grant was played by Ed Asner who's a big city newspaper editor. He had one of the shows dealt with him and a Vietnam vet. And since you as this was a World War to vet and the Vietnam vet they could really connect really very well and the Vietnam Vet kept calling him the class of 1946 and he didn't know what that meant when he finally explained it meant that after World War Two the vets and the army was slowly coming back so even though the war and in

45 there was a year of decompression for all these soldiers so that they when they came back into society they were a little better off and sense hence the class of 1906 the guys that go went to Vietnam the guys that are in the gals are coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan don't have that year. They are literally in Baghdad one day and then they're in Fort Bragg the next day they don't have that decompression thing. So what is interesting about the Vietnam vet was they didn't have that ability to transition into into a more domestic life. And also they weren't supported as you know now. I mean even people who are anti-war as some of my guests and I discussed earlier would say but I think I support the troops and I appreciate the service of those that's. I just don't support war. Right that's a different scenario than on many of these Vietnam vets face when they came back. Right and it's very difficult. And I'll tell you just another little anecdote in my grant my my favorite Uncle Don was a Marine in the Pacific he was at Guadalcanal all the way

to Nagasaki. He never talked about that for I would say up until it was 80 years old he never talked about it. My brother Jerry was in Vietnam and when the two of those guys got together which wasn't all that often they would talk about their war each war is very distinct and different and how it impacts people as though they see the same kind of processes of atrocity or things that were very very difficult. They're each war is very very different for each soldier. OK so we know that Hollywood is picking up whatever it's going on in society and putting it on the screen and also using some recurring themes like the band of brothers that you talked about are there other recurring themes that show up in in these films. Well there's a there's a there's absolutely lots of what I mean and I think the one thing is what I'm calling flipping the switch and with Rambo there was a scene where that scene comes after he's going on this enormous amount of carnage and totally destroyed a town. So there's a rite of passage for him going through that the destruction you

see that kind of a rupture in the flipping of the switch coming and many things by brothers has it one scene where Tobey Maguire is having an eruption of violence because he can't deal with an unspeakable horror that he witnessed and committed. Well when we had let the listeners hear this this is the two thousand nine film Brothers it's a young man comforting his older brother's wife and children after he goes missing in Afghanistan and in this scene the older brother has returned home and a fight between the two brothers ensues. You're a war hero. I'm no hero. I know. You are. It's all right. Relax am. Circular. Yeah OK. Whatever. You want you're. Right you're. Just. This is a family matter. SHUT UP SHUT UP. He's my brother. It is again this exact time he need to have that almost violent eruption

to be able to somehow have a cathartic experience to be able to get to the next step. Interesting what he also says. I'm no hero. That's another theme that comes along all the time and I think one of the best ones is Flags of Our Fathers directed by Clint Eastwood talking about the six men who raised the flag a month Suribachi and it was humid during World War Two. Now the story has been told other times there was a film with Tony Curtis called the outsider made 1961 talking about the Indian American effort and a Native American who ends up becoming a drunk because he can't deal with the fact of what he saw and the fact that people are calling him a hero. He is no hero because he saw and did these unspeakable things. A hero is something even greater. So that theme of being a hero is difficult for people who seen these very horrific things and we should talk about the fact that when we when I think about movies about veterans I don't often see persons of color.

I mean you've just cited one in Clint Eastwood's film but. With rare exception I know I don't see them I mean there's a soldier story that was in World War 2 but that was strictly about segregation. During that time there were Windtalkers talking about the code that the Navajo Marines used at the time. And Miracle at St. Anna set in 1944 that they fight against crime are very likely films that are based on a book by James McBride about a four soldiers trapped in Tuscon Italy. But you don't see that and let's talk about women too. Well you know there really you are right there are a lot of people of color in films there's courage under fire where Denzel Washington is investigating whether or not Meg Ryan deserves the Medal of Honor terms a woman. You know I looked around a truck. Well there has to be some. And the only one that I found is called Home of the brave which is about Jessica Biel who loses an arm in the war and is a driver so that her her physical deformity or physical hurt is so evident to her job. But it is not something that I think Hollywood is very

comfortable with at this point because again part of it is they can't really sell these films you take a look at all of the Iraq films all the films coming out even the recent ones out of Afghanistan. They're not doing well at the box office. Hurt Locker before a guy won the Oscar won an Oscar you know everyone loved it. Credible film and again there's an example of someone trying to reintegrate into society but they're kind of addicted to the adrenaline that they get. But that only grows 12 million dollars and even after it got the asker it only did about eight million dollars more. That's 20 million dollars. We're not ready to see it. You know what I think we're too close to it when we aren't ready to see it and again I'll go back to what the other films all were after the fact so there was some distance seriously we can get some perspective. We're still trying to figure out what's going on with our feelings as a country as a culture when we are engaged in these wars that were started for less than really good circumstances. I mean we have to say you know going

into Iraq was a dubious cause. I want to get back to women just for this point I'm not the film critic but in my research there's Julia Roberts in Valentine's Day and she has a very tiny role she's a woman soldier on a short leash she goes on the series son and then there was a movie called Grace Is Gone but that starred John Cusack and the wife is killed the US officer and the wife is killed nice guy taking the kids. I do want to point out that they were both in both these instances these are women pre-trade as mothers as much as they are as soldiers which I find interesting. Yeah I guess that's where Hollywood can put women the mother again. It is a question of box office because when you look at how we're looking at was looking at art versus commerce. And there are probably going to be some very good art films that come out to deal with some of these things but they're not necessarily going to make a lot of money. But when it comes to big Hollywood productions they're not going to they're going to be very very careful about who they choose as their leads. And I don't think of that a lot of the white older men in Hollywood are

going to want to look at you know either people of color or women as their male their leads. All right. What movie would you suggest to our listeners today while they're commemorating Veterans Day without loss stop loss. Yeah OK. And I'll tell you why stop loss. It is something that both liberals and conservatives can get behind because it has less to do with a political cause but more to do with what they aim in struggling with the fact that he thought that he was gone. He had done his duty to his country and now he really needed to get his life together. He too had seen and speak with ours and he needed to be able to try and focus on getting that part of his life in perspective. And that is what makes it a really good film for to see our view on Veterans Day. Thank you very much Aaron Daley. We've been talking about Hollywood's portrayal of war veterans returning home with care and daily care and daily as a film critic and host of the gerund Daily Show on 15 50 in TNT. And our contributor here at the Kelly Crossley Show you can keep on top of the Kelly Crossley Show at WGBH dot org slash Calla Crossley

follow us on Twitter I've become a fan of the Kalak rosti show on Facebook. Today's show was into nearby Allen madness produced by Chelsea Mertz and a white knuckle beat and Abby Ruzicka. This is the Calla Crossley Show where we are production of WGBH radio Boston NPR station for news and culture.