WGBH Radio; The Callie Crossley Show

I'm Cally Crossley This is the Cali Crossley Show. Today we're talking about a new adaptation of the cult classic The Rocky Horror Picture Show. Most people know it as the movie a pansexual alien monster musical with a bonus of audience participation. Its popularity is so huge that movie houses across the country screen it seasonally or as is the case in Harvard Square once a week. Now the local theater troupe Goldust orphans has adapted Rocky Horror to the stage. For years they've been producing exuberant and over-the-top shows like Phantom of The Oprah and Silent Night Of The Lambs. Today we'll discuss what the Gold Dust orphans bring to this new production. From there we look at another American classic Marilyn Monroe. A new film about her hits theaters tomorrow. Up next let's do the timewarp from the enduring power of the Rocky Horror Picture Show. To Marilyn Monroe. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi Singh. Egypt's ruling

military is promising to hand over power to a civilian president by July but that's doing little to appease the tens of thousands of Egyptians who want to see the interim military council resign immediately. Cairo's Tahrir Square the heart of the last step rising that toppled the Mubarak government. The crowds of demonstrators react angrily to a speech by the council's leader Hussein Tantawi who said he had accepted the resignation of the military appointed civilian government of a some Shirov. We have more on this from NPR's Soraya Sarhaddi Nelson. The protests that we've spoken to they say they will not accept anything less than a transition of power that the military rulers much not decide in favor of a more neutral milieu an authority that I mean even though the the interim cabinet resigned even ministers were elected by the military and their resignation means nothing to the people who are out there today. They want to be a firm timetable for the military rulers leaving.

That's NPR's Soraya Sarhaddi Nelson news wires are now reporting that Egypt's military ruler says the armed forces are prepared to hold a referendum on even mediately transferring power to civilian authority if people are demanding it. Now other news economic growth is a little slower over the summer than the government in the U.S. first thought. NPR's Paul Brown has more on the downward revision. The government says gross domestic product grew at a 2 percent annual rate in the third quarter rather than the two and a half percent in an earlier estimate. The new estimate is below analyst expectations but by and large consumer spending has been stable or slightly increasing depending on the category. And businesses have relatively low inventories so they'll need to ramp up production if demand remains where it is or increases even slightly. Two things that are increasing noticeably export growth stronger than earlier estimates and corporate profits up at a 3 percent rate for the third quarter after an even bigger rise in the second quarter. Paul Brown

NPR News. Tents are cropping up near the University of California Davis site where campus police pepper sprayed Occupy movement student protesters last week. A university spokeswoman is not saying whether students will be allowed to camp there but the president of the University of California system reportedly has contacted the chancellors of all 10 campuses and reminded them of students rights to protest peacefully. Video of last week's pepper spray incident went viral drew international condemnation and calls for resignations including that of Chancellor Linda. At last check on Wall Street the Dow Jones Industrial Average was down two points eleven thousand five hundred forty five with Nasdaq gaining four points. This is NPR News. Tonight's GOP presidential debate will be here in Washington. NPR's Ari Shapiro reports the eight Republican candidates will focus on national security and foreign policy.

CNN is co-sponsoring this debate with two conservative think tanks the American Enterprise Institute and the Heritage Foundation. The groups have assembled Republican foreign policy experts and former government officials some of whom will ask questions from the audience. It's a shift from other debates which have tended to take place in early voting states and generally focused on domestic largely economic issues. The candidates have talked much less on the campaign trail about their foreign policy agenda. That's partly because Americans top concern is the economy and it's partly because President Obama has racked up a better foreign than domestic policy record over the last few years. Ari Shapiro NPR News Washington. The International Criminal Court's prosecutor says Libya can put Moammar Gadhafi's son Saif al-Islam on trial at home but during a visit to Tripoli today Luis Moreno Ocampo said the tribunals judges must be involved. Safe al-Islam was captured on Saturday and he is charged with crimes against humanity. A UN envoy to Yemen says all parties are supporting a plan now through which President Ali Abdullah Saleh would resign. Sally has agreed to the idea before but changed

his mind at the last minute. Envoy Gemma bin Omar told reporters today that he's working now on setting a date for signing that deal. US stocks are mixed with the Dow down 3 points at eleven thousand five hundred forty four Nasdaq is up four points to twenty five twenty seven as Chimpy 500 up slightly at eleven ninety four. On Lakshmi saying NPR News Washington. Support for NPR comes from the Scole foundation supporting social entrepreneurs and their innovations to solve the world's most pressing problems at s k o l l dot org. Good afternoon I'm Kelly Crossley. Time warp indeed that song is from a movie nearly 40 years old. The Rocky Horror Picture Show there's a new incarnation of the story this time for the

stage here in Boston. Now Rocky Horror is commonly considered a cult classic. How and why do some stories last through the decades. We're examining those questions this hour later looking at a new movie about Marilyn Monroe whose popularity endures. Forty nine years after her death. But first the enduring popularity of cult classic Rocky Horror. Joining me to talk about Rocky Horror are Ryan Landry and Jeffrey Weinstock. Ryan Landry is co-founder of the theater troupe the gold dust orphans Landry and the orphans are currently staging the production. Rocky Horror Show at the Oberon Theater in Cambridge. Ryan Landry also plays the main character Dr. Frank and for Jeffrey Weinstock is a professor of English at Central Michigan University. He's the author of the book The Rocky Horror Picture Show. Thank you both for joining us today. Thank you. Thank you for having me. So Doctor let me start with you. Everything buddy says and everything I read it always begins with it's really not about the plot.

The rock over the Rocky Horror Picture Show movie is not about the plot but for the purposes of this discussion. Give us a brief description of what is the plot. So what is the plot. It's essentially a refund the Frankenstein story but taken down a very different road. I think you have Brad and Janet and those of you who are Rocky Horror aficionados can do the shouts that I can't say on the air. I don't know what I'm talking about yeah. You have Brad and Janet who are kind of our ingenues who happen down the road to a mad scientist's castle where a unveiling is about to take place of the Frankenstein's monster but it turns out to be a muscle man instead of a monster. And both Brad and Janet are then indoctrinated into frank and furthers freaky world over the course of the ensuing 24 hours. Now Ryan you played Doctor Frank invertor in this new staging at the Oberon theatre. What drew you to it initially. And if you would go back in time and just tell me what you thought about it when you first saw the movie or

became aware of the Rocky Horror Story period. Well the first time I saw it you know I was out of my mind. I don't remember what. So were all my friends we saw it at the Street Playhouse and you know in Manhattan and I would go a lot. I always thought that it was how life should be. I've always loved it since the first time I saw it. How old were you. Sixteen seventeen. Ok yeah that was like last year right. You know that was 25 years ago. Now with more. Well I can't count but there's a long time when the set was great after the movie came out. So did you I mean since you're in an altered state so to speak did you have an appreciation for it the way that you do now. Well I mean you know yeah I loved it I love John Waters films I loved you know Rocky Horror I loved any

of that stuff that was naughty. You weren't supposed to do. You know so. And today I mean why do I love. I did I did a version of it at Mass arts auditorium. I guess 15 years ago and it was such a great time and it was such a I've met some of my best friends that I still have today doing that show and the memories are so great I said well let's do it one more time and you know machine which is where usually where they were from perform was exactly the right space and I became friends with someone you are you who runs over on she's really terrific and she said well once you bring over here and things lead things and so we did it. I'm just happy to be happy to be 50 years old and still doing it. Dr. Weinstock rings me to the point how how does this endure. It was a flop when it first released can you. Can you explain why the movie was.

Yeah it was a flop. Well that's a good question. Why did it flop when it was first released. I think people just didn't know what to make of it when it was first release how to take this film and it got reinvented. Then in 1976 as a midnight film at the Waverly Theater in New York City and established a small audience you know kind of a cult following. Initially I didn't pick up on that not even this is that what it is that the direction you know that Ryan was talking about. Well I think initially when it came out I think it's such a low budget mishmash of genres that general release audiences honestly weren't quite sure how to take this thing and wear it. It did well in Los Angeles. And what what got noticed was that people were seeing it in Los Angeles again and again and again. It picks up momentum I think through repetition and what and then what happened at the Waverly I mean part of its success I think is organic I think the music is wonderful to encourage performances just out of this world. Part of that

success I think is just happenstance that developed the shout outs and the performance rituals slowly accumulated over time and then it became a kind of theatrical event even though it was a film a film that you could go to and you could participate rather than sitting passively. And that's to me part of the reason that it continues to endure. Ryan do you think that's one of the reasons why new generations would would find it interesting that that participatory because right now we're in the age of the mash up the engagement the all of that and if there is those elements are not part and parcel of an experience for at least younger people they don't find it so interesting. But this is an artistic piece that it involves that. See I don't feel that way at all. I was never into the shout outs whatsoever. I thought that they just got in the way of the story. I like the story like the original Frankenstein's or I love you know. He's right to encourage performance cannot be touched it's just genius.

But as I said I mean I wanted to enter that world and be part of that world. I did. I never minded the shout outs and I did. But I was one to bring toast and toilet paper and all that sort of thing to the theatre I didn't need to become engaged with it in that way because it engaged me the same way that the classic films of the 30s and 40s did the ones that I love and always wanted to step into those films and live in that world and in the world that I was living in. So what do you make of the whole shout out phenomenon that Dr. Weinstock has talked about that seem to have turned it from I can't believe this actually as I looked at it. And this by the way to both of you is the first time I've ever seen the film. Of course I knew the time Marc war song. I didn't know where it came from so this was a revelation to me. And I knew of the phenomenon about it but was not interested in it because it was characterized as a horror film and I managed that it typically interested in horror of course now I know it's really not. But yeah but my point is you know when you when you think about how it kept going

after it moved to the Waverly and people did shout out the reason I think it kept going is because the music is beyond words. Van tast it is megawatt brilliant You can't beat it for a rock musical I don't there's not a rock musical out there that can touch it in that the sense that the enjoyment of the songs the beauty of the song I mean yes some of the songs are absolutely beautiful. I mean over the Frankenstein plays this is a beautifully constructed song and I think for me it's always been the music that has really the music and the feeling again I mean being sort of like you know something that. The nerve types wouldn't get which made tickled me because I felt that I was somehow the cool kid or whatever nonsense I was when young. Well let's listen to a little excerpt of a longer excerpt from timewarp which is a song that as I said even those of us like myself have never seen the film appreciated out in the world.

So here's the cult classic The Time Warp with dance instruction so it sort of marries what both you and Dr. Weinstock like you like the music and Dr. Weinstock points out that the participatory participation part of this really engages audiences so here we are timewarp just to jump through that. With you and what you get. OK it's a right I have to dance when I hear that. Well exactly right and I think that that's the lasting power of anything right. I mean you know you may still makes you move baby you got it. You're on the right being. So how does it feel to play the main character Dr. Frank and furder. I mean we've mentioned Tim

Curry and his fabulous portrayal in the movie which was so weird that he acts that he from what I hear the doctor might be able to enlighten us better than me but I hear he he doesn't want to talk about it or something is that true. Well pause Dr. Weinstein is that true he doesn't want to talk about it. Yeah that has historically been the case that Tim Curry is very reluctant to acknowledge his role in that film. Why do you know. He was among his first cinema experiences and I think he was trying to establish himself as a quite serious actor and that role didn't fit the bill for that. You know I always feel so funny. I'm sorry to interrupt. It's so funny when I hear things like that because I think there are so many people in this world actors anyone in the entertainment industry who would die for a chance to be on the map of the you know greats at any time. And when I hear things like that it always makes me a little upset because I think you know honey just you know count your shekels and we have you know I got to

glad you're like you are you know and that people will remember you always and so what. You know but I guess some people they just you know they get known for something and it really upsets them that they can't show their full scope. It's like none of us get to show our full scope. We die way before that happens. Let me ask a pointy headed question Dr. Weinstock and I'm going to ask the same one of Ryan. But if you'd set the table one of the themes through the movie I know the plots not the point but people keep referring to themes that resonate with folks across generations as Ryan has said. The first when it comes to mind when he asked me the question is sexual exploration or sexual liberation. What happens in both the films with both the main characters with Brad and with Janet as they come in very straight laced and very nice and very innocent. And by the end of the film they've experienced a whole range of experiences and pleasures and situations that they had never

anticipated. And for you Ryan what are the things that stand out. I agree with with all that. I just think it's like be a freak and love it and let your freak let your freak flag fly. Oh yeah ok. I can feel real here. Do that wonderful job. Well one of the things that was Dr. Weinstock when we talked about the movie flopping you know because it was a general release film I'm looking at this film for the first time and thinking this was a general release. It seems so edgy even now. And I'm thinking I can't who approved this how did this get in this way and I don't believe it could be actually produced now unless it was in the OR a kind of nice film. Would you agree with that Dr. Weinstein. I think that's absolutely the case although you need to bear in mind the kind of historical context surrounding the film which the stage show itself was

originally launched in 1973 the film comes out in 1975. So you've got a theater performance like hair Jesus Christ Superstar you're right in the middle of the gay liberation movement the women's movement glam rock which you have performers who are essentially cross-dressing as well even pornography porn chic in the late 60s early 70s in which you momentarily became almost acceptable for normal Americans to go see a pornographic film. Within its historical context it was N.G. but I don't think it was white as transgressive as we might like think it was. OK do you agree Brian. I don't know because I mean the doctor is coming from a place that like like really studied and for me it just sort of like it's put He's the brain of the operation. I mean sort of like just loving the fact that he throws water at the

camera. You know I think that's hilarious. I mean but I don't know I don't I'll I know as I go to my show every Friday and we sell out every week and I have a ball and the audience is screaming and I'm just so glad to be a freak and I think Tim Curry helped teach me that that was OK and and you know there are other people who were responsive to them especially Richard O'Brien I shouldn't just say Tim Curry we're going to play a little bit of Tim Curry doing a song that I love from the movie and I think it's important to note that what you're doing at Oberon is different from the movie though it contains many of the elements and we're going to talk about that a little bit later. But right now here is Tim Curry singing sweet transvestite from the 1075 hit the Rocky Horror Picture Show. What. About that. Well she can. But you know you. She. Came.

To. This. Sexual. Thing. All right Tim Curry singing sweet transvestite when we come back we're going to hear how Ryan Landry puts his twist on that song. It's over on theater. We're talking about the Rocky Horror Picture Show. The film cult classic and now the theatrical adaptation now running at Club Oberon in Cambridge. We'll be back after this break stay with us. WGBH programs exist because of you.

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has dusted it off and produced a theatrical adaptation now running at club Club Oberon in Cambridge. Joining me to talk about all things Rocky Horror are Ryan Landry and Jeffrey Weinstock. Ryan Landry is co-founder of the Gold Dust orphans Jeffrey Weinstock is a professor of English at Central Michigan University. He's the author of the book The Rocky Horror Picture Show. So Ryan Landry aka Dr. Frank invertor at the theatrical adaptation now at Club Oberon. Tell us how the theater production that's going on there is different from what fans may know of the movie but also maintain some of the commonality. Well as the good doctor said it was originally. Stage production. So many people call it The Rocky Horror Picture Show but that that's was the name of the movie only the play is played in succession. Is

that the right word. I have a terrible vocabulary for somebody who's supposed to know these things if played constantly. Since it first came out I think I mean there's always playing somewhere always. And I forgot your question what I wanted. How does it different from the movie and how is it what does it hold in common with the movie. Well for instance I will tell you that you know that we do once in a while which is a song that is in the original stage production wood which isn't in the movie you know of course you know there is a little ad libbing that goes on with every time anyone does Rocky Horror and of course you know they say they're very upset. Now they're singing songs that aren't even in the movie. So it's different it's different in that way I guess. For a while I tried to do with this as I wanted to make sure that everyone felt like they were at the party so for instance a lot of the action doesn't really take place on the stage it takes place all

over the entire theater. I'm up on these boxes that are being wheeled through the audience and I talk directly to the audience when I'm talking to the group itself if I'm not talking to Brad and Janet or to other main characters that I'm addressing. If I'm addressing anyone in a group format everyone who is in the room I touch people without being inappropriate. And well depending on the call in progress and I have a ball you know operate like I just have to ask you since you did not like the immersive the participatory part of the audience in watching the film that's not what attracted you to this project. Yet here you are completely immersive and club Oberon in this experience touching speaking to the audience really being in it. How do you. The problem I think with the callbacks that I've always felt is what happens is it then slows down the action and then the story which everyone's like well the plot isn't the point. Well it's not a bad plot really. I get it you know and I think that like

what we're doing is you know with the callbacks and stuff it's the audience throwing stuff at us not in a bad way but throwing energy at us and I think with my version what I'm trying to do is throw energy at the audience and I think they really enjoy I mean they seem to. Eat it up. They can always go to any time place and see the movie play and throw toast at the screen and do all those different things that they want to do and they should be able to do that because it's great it's fun for them you know. But for me it's really about bringing the music to the forefront. Bring it into a rock back to a heavy duty balls to the wall rock musical put the drugs back in it. I mean you can't tell me that people when Richard O'Brien was doing this that he was experimenting with something besides marijuana. That's my opinion. You know I mean and. And speaking of the time as the doctor put it it's was a time of freeflow experimentation and you know just like let it all hang out and I I want to bring the let it all hang out back. I don't

believe that. Six thousand five hundred you know teenage girls on their cell phone texting who they want to win you know X Factor or something is really living. It's not a youth revolt. We were part of a youth revolt. I feel I don't want to put you in the same generation as me you're probably younger than I am. Yes I'm 25 continue and I will. But I mean you know it's time that people threw down their gadgets and looked each other in the face and that's what I was that's why I wanted to do it this way and that's why I'm doing it this way and I'm working. Well you're listening to eighty nine point seven WGBH and online at WGBH dot org. I'm Kelly Crossley we're talking about Rocky Horror with Ryan Landry and Jeffrey Weinstock. Ryan Landry is co-founder of the theater troupe the gold dust orphans Landry and the orphans are currently staging their production Rocky Horror Show at the Oberon Theatre in Cambridge. Jeffrey Weinstock is a professor of English at Central Michigan University. He's the author of the book The Rocky Horror Picture Show. Now Dr. Weinstock before we go further

let's talk about these callbacks. We've been you know taking an assumptive nature about it that everybody knows what we're talking about. So people are watching the film and what happens. And they shout things at the screen. In some cases they insert dialogue and pauses between lines in some cases they say something before one of the characters says something that seems to twist or alter the meaning of what the character says. In some cases it's just the kind of commentary after the fact the heritable say something and then the audience will shout a response. Give me an example. Oh boy. Of all the ones that immediately come to mind are somewhat blue. Well not that Lou. Yeah that's kind of the fun of it. This is slightly risque but I think it's acceptable for a radio conversation so I believe go ahead. Yeah there's one of the characters magenta comes sliding down the banister and she's saying I'm happy you're happy we're happy in the audience will shout and the bannisters happy ok.

It goes to I mean that tends to be the general feel the shout is there reverent. And I think that's the fun and I think Ryan put it so nicely that the whole experience of the film is about being a reference to the film itself is irreverent towards the history of cinema and the audience picks up on that and they have a kind of a reverence towards the film. They're almost licensed by the film to make fun of the film even as they love doing it. OK. Oh but they knew so right but I mean it was put perfectly. But I have to say they they love. The film I think. Oh absolutely the fun of it but they hate the film. Well they can love one of the things I want to talk to you about. Ryan is a quote that you gave to Edgbaston dot com. You said on about below. Yeah no no i'm not read that part. You know you said that often when people have tried to play these parts they don't really they're not willing to live each character they would rather simply pose

as such. And I want to know what you mean by that. Well I mean when I have the make up on in the corset moving all this fat around so that you know. I look somewhat shapely and I've got my little booties on and I've got my necklaces on and I've gone on the back for a smoke break with some of the other kids in the cast and you know we're really raring to go and hear that music hit. Then Dr. Frank and I would again I am not worthy to kiss the hem of Tim Carey's gown I know this but I do my damn best and have a ball doing it. And I sing it out loud and proud and love every second of it and believe that the audience is at my party and believe that I am. I have just created this muscle guy that I'm going to have sex with and I'm going to have sex with a real two and I'm going to do whatever I want because I'm Dr. Frank and for that sort of thing.

All right Dr. Weinstock. Hey. Thirty four years and counting from the film stills stage adaptations. Will this continue to endure in the same way that it has. I think it will continue to endure because it's become a kind of rite of passage at this point you have parents who take their kids to go see Rocky Horror when Rocky Horror comes around to college campuses you have parents who tell their kids to go see this because you have to see this at least once in your life. I don't know that it's as racy or transgressive as it ever was but there's a nostalgia factor now associated with it. It's so firmly entrenched in popular culture. That's the kind of thing you have to see at least once. Can I say one thing Dr. about that when you said that you don't think it's as Bracy as it once was in the sense I feel that it is again because as I say. Yes definitely I agree with you like a few years back it would be. But now I mean I swear to god these kids today they're straight out of Disney. It's like we got to get them back and to be embraced right.

Let's go. Is that your Final word final word right. Doctor what I think. Ryan Landry thank you very much for this exciting conversation. But even if we've been talking about the Rocky Horror Picture Show with Ryan Landry and Jeffrey Weinstock Ryan Landry is co-founder of the Gold Dust orphans Landry and the orphans are currently staging the production. Rocky Horror Show at the O'BRIEN Theatre in Cambridge. He plays the main character Dr. Frank and furder the production runs every Friday through January. To learn more visit Club Oberon dot com. Jeffrey Weinstock is a professor of English at Central Michigan University. He's the author of the book The Rocky Horror Picture Show. Up next we continue the pop icon conversation with our film contributor Erin Daly. He's here to discuss the new film about Marilyn Monroe. Stay tuned to WGBH. This program is made possible thanks to you. And Bentley University's

McCallum graduate school offering full time and part time MBA programs along with seven business focused M.S. degrees details at Bentley dot edu slash grad. And SNH construction and Deacon s abundant life sponsoring news and talk on eighty nine point seven. To learn how WGBH can benefit your business visit WGBH dot org slash sponsorship. Will the World Peace Corps volunteers serve in the developing world. They often fall in love with their jobs and sometimes with each other to think yourself well and then you're like you know what I have to try. This is the guy. But love and service don't always go next time in the world. Coming up at three point seven.

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film contributor gerund daily is here to talk through Marilyn Monroe's brief film career and long lasting effect on the American psyche. Aaron welcome back. I do in Cali. So let me ask a question that many have tried to answer but I know that you can't put me on the spot already. Absolutely. After watching so many films and knowing so much about Marilyn Monroe How would you what would you say who she is. Who is Marilyn Monroe. Oh I think that's what everyone's been trying to find since you burst upon the screen back in the 50s and is an enduring icon. You know I think it's because she's a cipher. She's a contradiction. I mean in some some ways I mean the most obvious contradiction is she is she comes across as being so soft and so vulnerable. But when you look at her life she was very strong and very determined and very ambitious. And I kind of like started thinking well what is it about her as an actor that makes her so. Amazing.

And I think what it is is that the great actors on screen are people who you can read into another words. You take a look at Bogart or Gary Cooper or any of these other great screen actors and they don't have they don't over act for the screen. You the audience has a real has as a connection to them and they read into the actor. I think Marilyn Monroe not only in her films but on a cultural level we're constantly reading into what we think she is. So we have we end up adopting her or adapting to whatever it is that she's doing. So there's a relationship that's constantly emerging as we look at her as an actor and again as a cultural icon. Would anybody have thought that she would become this in the way that she's become when she first burst on to this absolutely not she was a she was an attractive girl next door. She started off. She was in a couple of small pleasures walk ons. She got fired from Columbia she got fired from that go by by Fox and then she would go

back. And go back to modern but the most important thing about this and this is a theme throughout her life whenever she wasn't working. I can front of the screen or in front of a camera. She was working on her craft right from day one when she started taking modeling lessons and acting lessons. And if you take a look at her entire life every time that she had a moment she was back working her craft and she was very determined and very hardworking which kind of belies that that you know she's always late for the to do the set and she's always holding up productions and she's bit of a diva. There's again that contradiction. So this week a new movie and it comes after there have been so many movies about her so many articles so many books about her and yet I would have thought there was really nothing else to say about her honestly. I just couldn't figure out what else is there to say. This movie is call my life with Marilyn.

My Week with my whip My Week With Marilyn. See it feels like my life with Mel because we're talking about her all the time and this grew out of some diaries. It was two actually two books by ago by an author by name Collin Clark and he's based on his true stories about a week that he had with Marilyn back in the 50s during the making of a film called Prince and the Showgirl with Laurence Olivier. All right let's listen to a clip this is a trailer from My Week with Marilyn and it stars Michelle Williams as Marilyn Monroe. Be careful not to get into dates. That I might actually meet. Come on. Breaks. Break yours. OK the little girl to tell you. Exactly what she's doing. More people live in peace Marilyn Monroe's. Want this to be the most famous woman on earth. So I've read that this was a particularly vulnerable time for her because she was newly married and hoping for a different experience in London as she filmed this

maid maid. But Marilyn herself and now this is the movie about that this time. Well what's interesting about this particular moment in time for a life is I mean I think every time you talk about Marilyn is always going to bring up the question of vulnerability. But this particular time she was just married to Arthur Miller. And if you take a look at his playwright famous playwright and who ended up writing the Misfits for her as well and he was considered at that point the American playwright. And she was looking for her husband to help define who she was and give her a sort of legitimacy. So that's one element of it. The other element I was going to be working with Sir Laurence Olivier the actor of the century. As far as you know at that particular point time so that was another thing that was making her feel a little uneasy. The other part of it that very few people don't realize is that she just negotiated a deal with 20th Century Fox and Darryl Zanuck and that the production company that was actually making the prince and the Showgirl was hers. She owned it. She was way ahead of

her time when it comes to this kind of business arrangement with Hollywood where the star is dictating to the studio. Because again the studios are crumbling at that point. What was going to happen so she was ahead of her time on that. So all of those factors are going kind of intermingling when this one week with Collins starts at the beginning of the filming of a prince and the Showgirl. It's got to me. People are saying a triumphant turn for Michelle Williams an actress who actually you know asked to play her many people many actresses have attempted to play Marilyn Monroe. Michelle Williams says that she's tried to learn the walk that that came easily to her but to your point about having these different personas public and private that the voice she said was more difficult because that breathy thing that she put on in films was really not how she spoke. Right. That's the whole thing we have to remember and I think that's that's one of the difficulties of judging Marilyn Monroe as an actress is because Marilyn Monroe was an act. You know it was it was something that was constructed by Norma Jean to be able to deal with the world and it worked very

well for. But I think what the problem and what we see in Marilyn Monroe is that contradiction again between who Norma Jean was and who Marilyn Monroe was and how that that those two things kept colliding inside one soul. Well I want to listen to a clip from the misfits and this was directed by John Houston himself a well-known director and but written by R. Arthur Miller who is her husband and I don't think I paid attention to the words of this of the scene which seem to me to just really echo what you said about her trying to find herself and and looking to him to define her. So here's Clark Gable and Marilyn Monroe in The One thousand sixty one classic The Misfits. Me Beautiful woman. It's almost kind of a non-issue. Next to. You just my house. That's my true feeling right.

What makes you say I think you're the saddest parent I ever met. And usually told you. That's because you make a man feel happy. There's a great quote that I read from her she says my popularity seems almost entirely a masculine phenomenon. I think there's probably some truth to that I think she does play a play to that audience. Interestingly enough there was a there was an anecdote that I read about her talking about the misfits. And she goes here's a here's a part played by me written by my husband who supposedly knew me really really really really well and whenever I got to be an emotional scene rather than kind of talking about it or explaining it or getting angry I have to throw a hissy fit. Why was it that my husband didn't understand me enough to be able to write about it. But he just makes me throw me his heat which means he didn't understand me.

Well that's fascinating because I thought that little piece that we heard from the movie wow that's pretty insightful. And then it was from somebody who did know or I think I mean I get I think with Marilyn there's so many sides to me again. There is the percent of that she's Marilyn Monroe. There is the you know that little lost girl. And I think that there's something in between there as a mature adult. But you know you never know which one you're going to get and I think if you're married to or. I mean I remember there's a great quote from Rita Hayworth another iconic female star. Gorgeous gorgeous. And you know the quote was something along the lines of like this. I've been to bed with a lot of guys and they've all gone to bed with guilt but they wake up with me. Gilda being one of her famous Barnhill giving one of affairs it was just Rita Hayworth. This kind of you know she wants to be a hausfrau she wants to be a normal person she is not some flashy beautiful guild type woman. And I think Milliman rose the same way. Not saying that some of this doesn't exist now but certainly at the time of Maryland the peak of her popularity. All of the media media vehicles which

might tell a narrative about her were certainly controlled and run by men. In other words they set the agenda. So if you think about it in today's terms of going viral in terms of it just an understood narrative it seems to me that men who wanted to accept her in a certain kind of way thought of her as one way wrote up about it and kept spreading the same thing around so that's who she became. In the end. Yeah I think I agree with that but you know there's there's another thing she did pose for a fair number of nude pictures and she had control over that. So she knew what she was doing when she was doing some of her marking. And I would I can make a connection I think I'm making a connection between Marilyn Monroe's nude pictures and Kim Carr dash ANS and Paris Hilton's sex tapes which went viral and I think that there is a connection there because she set the stage for these later want to be seen to be able to create the media sensation to become celebrities. She was a celebrity and a

star. But she set the tone she set the plate for these later people. Well it suggests that maybe she's more like Madonna in control of her image then I would say that she's more like Madonna more like Lady Gaga. OK. Let's listen to another clip of Marilyn Monroe. This is from one of my favorite movies. Some Like It Hot it's a comedy and here is Marilyn Monroe and Tony Curtis in the 900 59 hit some like it hurt you know I'm going to be 25 in June. You are at a quarter of a century makes a girl think about what about the future you know like has spent that time going oh it works in Florida. MAN Yeah rocks after they all Cossacks in the winter like Gary are you going to cut yourself a match for oh I don't care how rich you are as long as he has got his own private railroad car I don't trust your own title and you owe me one character's behaving with money like Rockefeller and shelters like Johnny Weissmuller I want my new work plastic glasses and you wear glasses for much more. Chant sweet and helpless. I kept those weak guys from Grady you know

wrong time you know. The Wall Street Journal. I love that. Friend transform some like you not Marilyn Monroe talking about she wants a millionaire who's read in The Wall Street Journal she's no dummy. She said I don't know and you know just she came up Prince and the Showgirl and made this film which is you know some like that which is considered the number one comedy if not the number one film of all time. She was very very lucky although she had problems with the director and at one point he said to her why she should have been an engineer then she would know how to be here on schedule. So let's try this. The enduring nature of her being and her now and her presence in our pub culture live lives as Americans amazing to me. I was looking at this Gloria Steinem essay written and ran nine hundred eighty six. OK we're to 2011. And she entitled her essay The woman who will not die right referring to at that time the enduring nature of her being

present in our lives and I'm thinking now about the statue that was built in Chicago of her Marilyn Monroe with the iconic dress there. I mean what's going on here. Because we we are in such a throwaway culture as Steinem says in her essay. So she's trying to figure out why this one woman remains so in the center of our of our imagination. I think we need to go back to the times I think we need to go back to post-World War two thousand nine hundred fifty S America and our two icons that came out of that period. There was one Marilyn Monroe and the other was Elvis Presley a male and a female. And both of them brought something new to the scene and the and the thing that they brought was a sexuality that was not Victorian in its nature. It was not repressed. And I think that kind of caught the moment and just has grown as we've gone along. Now I think that when it comes to Elvis Presley versus Marilyn or I think Marilyn Monroe is a much more enduring.

I can and I think the reason is because again she is a cipher and we have that ability to read and so as our culture changes she remains that cipher that we can read into and push our thoughts at her. And that way she stays ever present in our mind. She's also a victim and we've come of it we've become a victim of we the victim has become part of our culture. In fact some of the critics of Marilyn Monroe say you know she has you know she has no enduring legacy other than the fact that she is narcissistic and she's a victim and it's all the wrong things that we need to talk about these days. So so there are some who question whether if she hadn't either committed suicide or some believe that something else in the Ferias happened to her but if she hadn't died that's the point you know thirty six years old that perhaps she would still be fixed in her mind I don't think. I think there's very little question about that she died when she was young. She died when she was beautiful she died in a mysterious way that as all the allure that we need to do if you can imagine Marilyn Monroe at 65 years old it would completely ruin

that image that we have in our minds. I think we do have an image of who she was in our minds almost all the time. And when you think of Marilyn Monroe Sometimes you think of that. Scene from seven year itch where she's sitting on the grate and a skirt blowing up which is all youth vital and sexy. Thinking about her as a 65 year old woman would be probably completely different when the flesh is sad and she probably might be a very good actress but she would not be the icon to sexual icon that she is. Well I got to say that let me just push back one second and that is I'm looking at Tippi Hedren for example right. You know who starred in the in the Byrds was the star of many Alfred Hitchcock films. She looked pretty good the older she got I have to tell you. Now she didn't look like she looked when she was in the Byrds but I would consider her pretty sexy looking. Well yes but I don't think to be had when it caught that moment the weather element and we don't think of Tippi Hedren as a a sexy 35 year old or a sexy 25 year or 60 60 55 year old. So I mean yeah there are some

people who age incredibly gracefully and incredibly beautiful. But I don't think that Marilyn Monroe is going to be one of those people. I think she would have been an average looking woman in her 50s. There's been much written about the complicated nature of women's response to her. Some women came to feel connected to her when they in her struggle to have a child for example. She revealed that she had been sex sexually assaulted as a child herself. That was a connection that women made with her but a lot of them according to folks who've written about it felt a kind of hands off. But I want to question you because I think that what made her appreciated by many women is that she was in these roles these comedic roles which made her kind of accessible so I want to play a clip from one that is certainly one of our most popular Gentlemen Prefer Blondes. Here's Marilyn Monroe in 1953 film. Gentlemen Prefer Blondes. Have you got the nerve to stand there and expect me to believe that you don't want to marry my son for his money. It's true. What do you want about him for filing to marry you for your

fare. So Laura why you see that's why we have to have his consent. Sandy you admit that all you're after is money don't you know that being rich is like a girl being pretty. You're like not now you go just because she's pretty. I do my cooking steps need help. Well I can see that say they told me you were stupid. You don't sound stupid to me I can be smart. But most men don't like it. I'd love that. It's a great quote but it does say something about who she was in 1953 because again she had to fight through a lot of things just to have control of her career. And if you start thinking about some of the things that she did do that what people don't realize. First when back in those days she was out jogging and working out in gyms. When women didn't do that again way ahead of our time you start looking at her fashion statement she wasn't wearing all these beautiful dresses that were you know made

especially for. She was wearing jeans and bulky sweaters and she really set the tone for that 50s casualness. And I'll tell you something else that I didn't realize at the time when I started doing my research she became great friends with Ella Fitzgerald. Yeah. And the anecdote is and it's been verified is actually a play done on it where Marilyn Monroe fell in love with Ellen's voice and made an effort to become you know get to know our jazz singer and pop singer for people who don't know Ella Fitzgerald. You would not know what I'm saying OK. But anyways and Ella could not get a gig in Los Angeles because she was blind. And that's that and we're talking to 50s Marilyn Monroe went up to a very popular nightclub owner and said listen if you book an Ella Fitzgerald I will buy a table in front of and the front stage for a solid week and I will be here every single day. And sure enough he booked her and Marilyn kept her word and she sat right in the front row brought all this Papa Roxy and Ella according to

the reports and I actually felt that Marilyn was instrumental in helping her career. And they became great friends. And I love that I love. We don't hear that. No we don't. Yeah. And it says you know again Marilyn that contradiction you know she's she's very vulnerable on screen but here's a tough woman doing the right thing at the right time to help people she likes. And she knew what to do by the way and she knew how to do it just not to use her celebrity. Yeah to make something happen you know. Absolutely. I had also read that she was very interested in a kind of a global perspective that you wouldn't expect her to have you know that certainly the story contributes to that but he was you know looking around the world saying we are all brothers and we need to try to figure out how to work together which is not something you hear for saying. And when you think when she died OK which is early 60s not late 60s. She was picking up the vibes that were going on in the Beat Generation and some of those other things before the media was and before a lot of other people was you know I you know. I think that if Marilyn did live if she had she'd survived into her 40s she would have been a more

interesting actor and a more interesting person she may not have been the sexual icon. But I think that she was working so hard at being who she really was or trying to find out who she really was. And you know at least the spectrum back trying to have a second to think that she got married three times you know each one of those guys were people that she thought would help make her feel good. She divorced every single one of those guys because they weren't being really good to her. She was a much stronger woman than people give her credit for. And I like that about her. So what do you think this new film My Week With Marilyn will do to her popularity to her reputation to adding to the whole narrative. Well I think the first thing is that Michelle Williams will probably get an Oscar nomination. Her performance is incredible. And it's an incredible cast you know when you talk about Kenneth Branagh Julie your I'm an editor man Dominic Cooper when you go on and on and on. A great cast. I think it's going to get the conversation going and I hope the conversation is going to be more about what we were talking about

who this person really was and why do we still. Why does she endure 60 years later as a sexual and female icon for our culture and the culture has changed so drastically. Yet she remains that that person that is an incredible enduring legacy. And I think we should be talking about that. Thank you so much Karen I loved this conversation. I'm counting Crosley this week we've been talking about Marilyn Monroe with our film contributor film critic Karen Daly. The new movie My Week With Marilyn hits theaters tomorrow. You can keep on top of the Kelly Crossley Show at WGBH dot org slash Calla Crossley follow us on Twitter or become a fan of the Calla Crossley Show on Facebook. Today Show's engineer by Alan mass produced by Chelsea Myers will Rose left and Abbey Ruzicka. We are production of WGBH radio Boston Public Radio.