Boston Symphony Audience Learns of the Death of JFK: Radio Spot with Interview

This is the show takes. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi saying the U.N. Security Council is overwhelmingly backing a fourth round of sanctions against Iran for refusing to

halt its nuclear program. We have the latest from Lynda FACIL in New York. Among other things the 10 page resolution calls the vigilance of the business dealings with Iranian banks including Iran's central bank and expand the U.N. weapons in Bargo 40 firms tied to Tehran's nuclear program become subject to a foreign asset freeze. And of the measure would also establish a cargo inspection arrangement similar to one imposed against North Korea. In addition it bars Iran from investing in uranium activities abroad and launching ballistic missiles capable of carrying nuclear. Weapon Iran denies allegations that it is working to produce a nuclear arsenal. For NPR News I'm Linda soon though in New York. Energy company BP says there are no huge plumes of oil under water in the Gulf of Mexico. NPR's Corey Coleman says this contradicts a report issued yesterday by the federal government. Speaking to NBC today BP chief operating officer Doug Suttles says he thinks it all depends on the definition of a plume. Basically there are some people have asked is Are there

large concentrations of oil under the sea and those have not been found so far bias or anyone else that's measuring this the federal government says oil has been discovered in low concentrations as far as 30 300 feet below the surface and more than 40 miles northeast of the broken well site. Courtney Coleman NPR News Washington. Meanwhile BP says it's capturing even more spilled oil than before more than 15000 barrels of crude so far but authorities are hoping to push that figure up to twenty eight thousand barrels soon campaigns for the general election are in full swing a day after 12 states held primaries or runoffs and female candidates made their mark in an election year. NPR's Mara Liasson also knows the primaries delivered a defeat to an incumbent governor while an incumbent senator managed to hang on. The big news of the night was Arkansas Democrat Blanche Lambert Lincoln's unexpected victory in the Democratic Senate primary runoff. I have heard your message and Washington needs to work for us. The lieutenant governor Bill Halter who had the backing of Organized Labor and Liberal groups.

She goes on to a general election against Republican Congressman John Bozeman in Nevada Republican Governor Jim Gibbons lost his primary to Brian Sandoval. Givens is the first incumbent governor this year to lose. Also in Nevada a Tea Party backed Sharron Angle won the Republican Senate primary in California Republicans. Meg Whitman and Carly Fiorina won their gubernatorial and Senate primaries in South Carolina's Republican gubernatorial primary Nikki Haley advance to a runoff against Gresham Barrett. Mara Liasson NPR News Washington. After an upbeat assessment from the Fed chief U.S. stocks are moving up at last check the Dow is up more than 100 points at ten thousand fifty three Nasdaq moving up 30 at twenty two a one. This is NPR. The head of the Federal Reserve is striking a confident tone today about U.S. economic recovery and its ability to survive Europe's growing debt troubles. Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke speaking before the House Budget Committee is predicting only a modest impact on the U.S. economy he says the economy appears on track to continue to expand through

this year and next. Britain is requiring something new of immigrants looking to tie the knot in the U.K.. More from Larry Miller in London. People hoping to immigrate to the U.K. to either join their spouse or get married must show they can speak English as well as a seven year old. This applies to those from outside the European Union. The Home Office says migrants will need to show their command of English is good enough to take part in everyday life before being granted a visa. This is in addition to proving their relationship is genuine and they are able to support themselves financially. The home secretary says the new requirement will help promote integration. It's been estimated that a new language test will cut visa applications by 10 percent with those most effect. Did coming from India Pakistan and Bangladesh and immigrant support group says the new rules are discriminatory. For NPR News I'm Larry Miller in London. Jack Abrams the former prominent lobbyist jail for fraud and other acts of corruption reportedly

is at a halfway house. The Associated Press citing the Federal Bureau of Prisons reports was released yesterday from the minimum security prison camp near Cumberland. It was sentenced in 2006 to nearly six years for fraudulent casino deal he also got jail time two years later on separate corruption charges. I'm Lakshmi saying NPR News. Support for NPR comes from constant contact dedicated to helping small businesses and nonprofits build a strong customer relationships with email marketing constant contact dot com. It's live and it's local. Coming up next two hours of local talk the Emily Rooney show and the Cali Crossley Show only on WGBH. Good afternoon you're listening to the Emily Rooney show. Just when you thought fishermen endure every possible natural and manmade disaster possible along

comes another one. Fishing nets picking up discarded war weapons. This week a trawler snagged World War One canisters containing mustard gas and one fisherman wound up with painful blisters. The boat New Jersey vessel dredged up the two shells Sunday about 45 miles south of Long Island. Joining me here in the studio is Dr. Paul Biddinger medical director for emergency preparedness at Mass General Hospital and by telephone Craig Williams of the Chemical Weapons Working Group. They go around checking to see if other similar World War I mean war remnants are left in oceans around the around the world anyway. First of all Dr. Biddinger How do you go about treating somebody who's been coming in contact with mustard gas. Well it's awfully hard actually because first the diagnosis is tough. It's not something anyone has seen around recently. It's a clinical diagnosis you're looking for a cluster of symptoms and then there's really no specific treatment.

So what you need to do is first of course decontaminate them is a very toxic substance both of course to the patient but also to the treating providers they can become infected themselves once they are decontaminated then it's support if you treat the blisters if they're severe enough like burns and provide respiratory support if they have any breathing difficulties. Who determined that. Was it the Coast Guard that determined this was indeed mustard gas. My understanding is that it was a combination of the Coast Guard and the U.S. responders that were very astute and put the symptoms together very quickly. So one of them I guess broke open. Otherwise they had been contained correct it sounds like they all the shells were intact except for one and when one broke open that was likely the source of exposure. I mean I just incredulous to me that that stuff could be still toxic still from World War 1. Absolutely I think everyone's astounded that that is still has this potency after that much time but it underscores how dangerous these chemicals really are. That's incredible. Well Craig Williams first first of all are these weapons intentionally disposed like this just dumped to the bottom of the ocean or would it have been a mistake.

Oh no this was. Similar to STATE OF THE ART disposal of between 19 18 and around 1970 when the prohibition on ocean dumping of these and other types of materials came into force internationally. So that leads to the question How many more of these kinds of things are there. Well no one knows for sure there are some records where there are many records actually but everyone who is familiar with this situation agrees that they're incomplete. We do know of 30 to dump sites off the US coast both in the Pacific and in three areas the Pacific the Atlantic and the Gulf unfortunately. And we have identified approximately twenty nine thousand tons of various types of chemical warfare material including 400000 mustard.

Rounds that have been dumped in various places off our coasts. And that's what we can identify and how much more there is is really unknown. You know what's amazing to me. You think you hear everything that goes around in a news cycle. I've never heard this and I hear you. You're a specialist in it but has this ever happened before that a fisherman pulled some of his stuff up. Well actually it has happened and often times things like this occur and people never get to the bottom line as to what it was. And I get the ack appropriate treatment and unless they perish. It just kind of passes under the radar screen but recently within the last several years there have been many instances of this off the Hawaiian coast where there were also a number of dump sites which led to legislation in 2000 and seven I believe it was which directed the Department of Defense to do with a review of all the records they do have to go out and monitor the areas that they know these weapons were dumped

and to also try and make a determination as to whether or not they're leaking. And if they are what kind of impact are they having. Well potentially to the general ecology of the marine life and human health as well. Also there are a lot of people know this. It's obviously a huge undertaking to try and say I'm sorry try and identify with precision where all these things are and then to monitor them and so on and then of course there's the question of if you find out that they are leaking what do you do about exactly. I'm talking to Craig Williams a chemical weapons were the Chemical Weapons Working Group based in Kentucky based on an international coalition of citizens living near a chemical weapons storage sites in the United States and also in the studio Dr. Paul Biddinger medical medical director for emergency preparedness at and well what is mustard gas thought of it in Germany was it was it looked like was it smell like. Sure so it's a group of chemicals actually there are a number of them that were first developed in the early 1900s but then used as wartime agents in World War One

used also in the Iran-Iraq war and possibly against the Kurds in Iraq. It's a little bit of a misnomer sulfur mustard which is likely the substance here is actually usually not a gas at usual temperatures it's more commonly a liquid above 58 degrees. All of these substances have something in common which is that they damage the skin they cause blistering that cause they're called Jessica for that reason. But they also have other other toxic properties again that can cause damage to the lungs if there inhaled damage to the G.I. track if they're drunk but they also have long term damage and they can actually change DNA they raise unfortunate those persons that have been exposed they raise the risk of cancer. So that is part of why they are banned. They were used in World War 1 because of some of their physical program they used on they they were first used by the Germans in in in Belgium. They were used because they're heavier than air they gather in low lying areas. And so in trench warfare they were especially good because they would gather in the trenches where the troops were. They were very

insidious way of acting which is that you can be exposed and you don't start to feel symptoms for several hours later. So the toxicity is building before you have a chance to decontaminate yourself. So but if you if a canister were hit right here in front of us and you poured it out. It would be a liquid. It would likely be a liquid and all we would have to do is breathe it into the correct over time it will vaporize it will volatilized and become dispersed in the air. It's a liquid and when you mention the Kurds to Saddam Hussein use it on some of his own population. Would that have been sprayed corrected the traditional way in which they're used in the way that this was likely found in the shell is that the shell explodes and disperses the agent over a wide area. Right so he was blowing through shooting at those people that they say appeared to those horrible images that you know in my mind people seem to have just died in their tracks though those were probably different agents of those particular pictures I think they may be thinking of the nerve agents of the mustard agents will typically present with symptoms hours to occasionally a day or two after where people can have severe blistering severe

difficulty breathing. The mustard agents tend to have a lower mortality than the nerve agents that are very very deadly. Only about three to five percent thankfully of people exposed to mustard agents die. But they again can suffer some pretty severe physical symptoms in the interim. Dr. Paul Biddinger and by telephone Craig Williams of the Chemical Weapons Working Group. Well Craig are there nuclear weapons out there also somewhere just dumped into the ocean. I don't think that there are nuclear weapons. There are maps that indicate that somewhere in the neighborhood of 75. And tons of radioactive waste that's been dumped off our coastlines. But there is no indication that any of this material was weaponized. And I would think that that would be a very remote possibility. But when you have seventy five thousand tons of radioactive waste being dumped in the ocean that just adds to the potential ecological damage and human health exposure should some of this material be dredged up as well.

Yeah what would what would what would be its reaction in the ocean would marine life have to come into contact with it or would that be dispersing through the water and it could travel to other areas. Well it depends on which kind of agent you're talking about in the chemical weapons world the amount of some of the radioactive I'm talking about radioactive stuff. I'm not as familiar with the radioactive waste interactions with the ocean waters as I am with the chemicals. All right well for All right so let's take this this case for example they pull up these two shells that they're a clamming vessel. Then today is the Coast Guard of somebody or your group going to go back to that area. First of all try to find the rest of the of the waste dump. And then what do you do about the clam population what do you do about people eating these things. Well responsibility for going back to determine if there are. More there and how much and what to do about it if anything it would be up to the United States military.

It's their property. They would be the ones that would be called in to see and I'm sure they would work in cooperation with EPA and various ocean focused government agencies in order to make that determination. And it's impossible really to tell we part of the problem with this is that there are so many perceived undisclosed or identified locations that until something like this occurs there's no one knows at this stuff there. It's pretty well understood by fishermen and others that make their living in the oceans where these identified sites are and they are avoided in the context of any operations that might go on but when you suddenly come along and find something like this like they did in Hawaii like they did in this incident like they did in the clamshell incident in Maryland you know it's a surprise to everyone and unfortunately in this case.

People were exposed in other cases they come up in the shows don't crack open their reported and then there are certain actions taken or that area is declared to be off limits. Further you know clamming or whatever process might be going on. These things are only 45 miles offshore. What would they have been able I don't know how big they were but might they have moved because they you know go with. Well that's been the question. It appears as though most of them don't very far. How big are they fighting with mustard is when it when it does open when these barrels or weapons or something on start to release their contents. Mustard agent doesn't disperse and break down in seawater as well as some of the more dangerous nerve agents that the doctor was referring to those breakout relatively quickly and don't travel great distances. Unfortunately this mustard agent can just become in globby all type of alarm similar to some of the things we're seeing in the Gulf right now and they can move with the currents in great distances and

become impacting to people. Away from the original dumpsite course in this case it was the actual weapons that were pulled up and the chances because of their weight and so on they probably don't they don't move too far. Many of these weapons were actually put on ships in the entire ship was sunk and we have hundreds and thousands of pounds of the stuff on it and those obviously don't move around because the ship still encasing them but whether they're releasing their contents or not is a whole nother question. To Craig Williams from the weapons chemical weapons working group and Dr. Paul Biddinger from you people are both nodding your heads going yup yup i have to say this is this is shocking to me really. Whole ships are loaded with weapons and I mean and when you think about the range of possibilities the weaponry that's been developed over the sea they stopped it in one thousand seventy two or 70 whatever that was but that's incredible. To me it's really a little bit frustrating and frightening to know that these things are still out there and you know wouldn't for those of us that have been preparing for

more current events. Yeah but you are such as bioterror attacks chemical attacks industrially says for the most part mustards have been lower down on our radar screen because people aren't making them in the US is supposed to be destroyed. It's not as effective there. Well it's banned by the initial international chemical weapons treaty and though they are somewhat easier to manufacture and so it's not impossible that someone could manufacture the maliciously. They're probably a less likely target than some. So I think all of us were surprised to see them but but again this serves as an unfortunate reminder that those threats are not completely gone. Are you an NGO prepared for the mass on slot I'm sure you've been doing that since 9/11 if not earlier. Exactly so after 9/11 I think all of the hospitals really undertook a dramatic improvement in their decontamination capabilities and an G.H. among all the Boston hospitals has really been working on that very hard. Mustard gases or mustard agents excuse me are particularly toxic because of the volatility. And they actually require a level of personal protective equipment and a level of decontamination higher than the hospitals can actually support. So this would require the Boston Fire

Department of the Massachusetts hazmat response teams manage the department fire services to come in to assist. Craig I'm curious what is the current state of the art way to dispose of mustard gas if we still got any and other chemical weapons in that kind of thing now. Well we do still. Quite a bit of it on land based storage areas. Some of the locations are incinerating it which we imposed early on and we were successful in stopping that process said four of the eight us storage sites on land and the other four sites neutralizing their chemical neutralization process which is much more controllable they're currently burning mustard agent in Alabama Arkansas Utah and Oregon. They completed a neutralization campaign in Maryland for mustard and there are two neutralization facilities currently being built to dispose of the remaining stockpiles of mustard one is in

Colorado and one is here in Kentucky. Wow. All right thanks so much for joining us. Craig Williams from the Chemical Weapons Working Group and Dr. Paul Biddinger medical director for emergency preparedness. Thank you so much for taking with us. All right we're going to take a short break. You're listening to the Emily Rooney show when we continue. Physicians group says the military has been engaging in illegal human psychology torture. Not necessarily anymore but that's the report says State Government says not so. We'll be right back. Wow wow wow.

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recently released a report critical of the military's use of torture techniques saying waterboarding and other harsh interrogation techniques were really used as experiments to see how humans would react psychologically. The government is denouncing the report saying the accusations are old and have already been dealt with. But the author of The report says this is the first time these documents have been examined with an eye on strict military law including the Nuremberg Code which came into effect after Nazi Germany used medical experiments on prisoners. And joining me here in the studio is Nathaniel Raymond lead author of the study on experiments and torture. And he's also with the Physicians for Human Rights which is part of a campaign against torture. Welcome. Thank you. It's like this. This really isn't though. I mean it has a political outcome but your mission was not to stop waterboarding or was it. Our mission was simply to try to understand based on declassified government documents what the behavior of the health professionals actually

constitutes within U.S. and international law specific to human subject protections. We also looked at the broader ethical universe that should have guided the health professionals physicians and psychologists who participated in the CIA's enhanced interrogation program tell me exactly what the documents were I know these things have been declassified for a while now. They've been heavily redacted. So they're taking out names and that kind of thing but what kind of material we're actually able to see what we're talking about is three documents specifically. One is the combined technique Office of Legal Counsel memo written by the Department of Justice by Steven Bradbury in 2005 to guide interrogators in the CIA program about what techniques were legal. The second document that we looked at closely was what we call appendix f of the CIA inspector general's report dealing with a. Very obscure office called the office of medical services at CIA and then the third

document is the Office of Professional Responsibility Report basically the inspector general report of the Department of Justice on John you Judge Bybee and bribery. OK. And in these documents were specific cases of people who had been interrogated with water with the need to have real case studies how could you come to your can we came to our conclusion based on three instances mentioned in the Office of Legal Counsel memo on Combine techniques and going forward I'll just call it the Bradbury memo in that memo. We see three instances where the following formulation occurs where data is collected from people who are being subjected to techniques that constitute torture. There is an analytical process to understand what the data means and then that data is applied to future legal conclusions about what's permitted and what's not. And you have to understand here Emily that the critical thing is because these techniques were legal. There there was a lack of two things.

You're saying they're illegal the government is saying they're not. Well prior to the authorization by Office of Legal Counsel these techniques were prohibited under U.S. law and we prosecuted through court martial. U.S. soldiers who had engaged in them in the past and had found that other countries were engaging in torture when they used them. So these techniques basically there wasn't an experimental program in the past to develop a measuring system for what constitute a certain level of harm. And the second thing that was missing is clinical know how about how to monitor them because doctors were not ethically or legally allowed to participate prior to the memos. So basically they had to start from scratch. And what we that is an experimental process and what we see in the three instances are the following. And one case they adapt waterboarding from the previous military training technique called the seer technique to a. Forum called waterboarding what we call waterboarding 2.0. They were using large volumes of water and they realized that increased

threats to the health of the detainees that they had not dealt with in the training environment in the SERE program. So this they actually weren't waterboarding them. They were using sailing. And the reason they were using salt water is to prevent a condition called hyponatremia. If you ingest large volumes of water you can get a dangerous sodium deficiency which often happens in marathon runners and the elderly in nursing homes which can lead to brain herniation coma and death. And that was experimental they were taking a medical product in adapting it to an intentionally harmful test the water I guess. Yeah you know I have seen pictures of it doesn't the water go up your nose. Well in the SERE program they did not achieve a seal. OK. They were basically putting I mean what it means is what we see in the documents is mention of. The phrase was a seal achieved or over the nasal oral pharynx In other words. Were you able to get suction on the nose mouth and throat and in the SERE program you basically have a cloth over your face

and that in the CIA program they're pouring the water much closer and larger volumes with longer duration and they are using Saran Wrap in some cases to achieve a seal. And they were concerned in the documents that the detainees would start sucking down the water. And if that happened they could go hypo in a trimix and die. And so they were trying to take this technique which they had very little to no data or know how and figure out a way to do it multiple times with large volumes of water not kill anyone. I can tell I did not then know Rayman who's the lead author of the study experiments in torture produced by the Physicians for Human Rights Campaign This is a little bit dense conversation here but I don't. I want to kind of cut to the chase let's cut to the right. Which is it any kind of interrogation technique. I mean almost any you know long hours you know dark rooms you name it I've just been reading. Just read a couple of books one of them by Roxana Saberi that and remaining journalist who's held in Iran and the other one

estimate Darian who was also held in Iran. Both of them subjected to these psychologically torture sessions of the terror geisha. Isn't that the point. Isn't that the point so what makes it experimental. I mean that's I mean all of these are experimental. Most of these people admitted that under these tortures conditions they told the interrogators what they wanted to hear. Well the fact is is that these techniques that we're talking about here are not just psychological They have physical effects as well. And they come from as always when these things do. Oh of course yes. They come from the SERE program and the SERE program was designed based on techniques used on captured USPO W's in the Korean War and the be in the war to basically get false confessions and they are about three things it's called Triple D dread debility and deprivation. Those things are not good for intelligence collection. What they're good for is getting someone to obey your will. And

basically what. Needs to be said about this program is that this wasn't an efficacy monitoring exercise or even a safety monitoring exercise which both would have been unethical and illegal for these physicians underneath the Nuremberg Code and underneath us anti torture law. But the real point of this let's cut to the real point is this in a sentence that what we see is they were using these docs as a get out of jail free card on potential charges of torture. The data that they were running back in the conclusions they were making were not related to either operational efficacy for intelligence collection nor was it related to quote a safety officer role. What it was about is covering their butts on what was going to happen. If this information came out and they were trying to prevent showing intent to cause a certain level of harm in good faith in preventing that level of harm. OK but but did they get from these prisoners. Does the data show. Did they get. The desired results are the get the results that often times the

torture which is what whatever they want to hear. Well the fact is that the harm standards set up in the legal memos which this data appears to be used to draw conclusions about was junk science. We have an appendix in the report where we take the documents referenced in the first memos out of the Bush administration and actually look at what it says the science is wrong in terms of the conclusions that they drew in the first memos to set that harm standard. So when I say junk science it means it's a snake biting its own tail was for a preordained conclusion. If they had done the science right they would have reached a different conclusion which is a this stuff creates false confessions. And that's happened in the case of a beta where now they said that he confessed to things the government has stated that he confessed to things under these techniques including the potential attack on U.S. shopping malls which turned out to be a false confession. And so you've got false confessions coming out of it you have harm and the net effect is bad science.

Well how do you respond to what the government says. They're basically saying you know what this is this is all we address this and maybe it's enough what you're saying is true. It's no longer true because they've changed the techniques. Well just one quick response that the CIA according to Associated Press report has denounced our document. And additionally they've said that this has been already reviewed in multiple prior government investigations to our knowledge publicly there's been no investigation specifically looking at the political law and ethics governing the health professional role. It's been about us anti-torture statute. And what we're talking about here is a separate but equal alleged crime from torture torture constitutes a war crime as does illegal experimentation and we see that the Bush administration in 2006 weaken the standard in the War Crimes Act preventing this type of behavior. We need a full investigation to understand if you didn't do it why did you cut the legs out from underneath the laws preventing it.

Just to get back to the experiment please. Part of this again because I think this is the part that having hard to get and wrapping my head around. I mean. Waterboarding is torture and wherever you stand on that and whether it should be I don't know but it is. And so to me I mean there is no experiment that is just the simple act unlike what was going on in Nazi Germany which was what the Nuremberg Code is based on which was they were medically altering. You know now these instant thousands of people you know taking limbs off in Issoudun genitals in this then sewing them on other people and you know it's to the extent I want to hang around and yeah and see exactly. Yeah and the point here is that after those atrocities occurred in World War Two the Nuremberg Code was put into effect which is the basis of US human subject protections and international human subject protections. And what's prohibited is not specific types of research but it's the Research

Act the collection of data against someone's will and interests to create generalizable knowledge for purposes. Absolutely unrelated to their treatment their medical treatment or their interest. And that's where the war crime lies. And you're absolutely right what we're talking about here is not analogous to the Nazi experience but the prohibitions against it OK now becoming clear time because of it. Yeah it's actually the research that they attained from yes the research that makes it illegal and it's the function of the health professional applying the research frame. To this population against their will and the torture act is a separate crime and that needs to be really explicitly said. Both are legal but they're not the same. They often occur together yes. So what is it that the government says they have changed about this. This research application Well the fact is that that going director of National

Intelligence in February of last year testified before Congress. Admiral Dennis Blair in said that they are doing scientific research on interrogations currently. Now we don't know if them Vols detainees So to answer your question we don't know if it is changed because in the case of the War Crimes Act the week in standard the Bush administration put in in 2006 is still in effect. So we actually can answer that question about what's happening right now with an investigation. It's a black box. Daniel Raymond who's the lead author of this study by Physicians for Human Rights Campaign Against Torture. You mentioned earlier the the medical professional s who carried out this how how did they justify that and how should they have acted differently should they have known that what they were doing was the equivalent of a medical experiment on prisoners. We have two things for health professionals that should have guided them in this

situation. One is a professional ethics and the other is the law of how you conduct research in the United States or federally funded research. The ethics are clear hypocrisy says Do no harm. Here they are intentionally inflicting and calibrating harm and learning from it. The second category in terms of the law. There would have been if the law was followed that the CIA has to adhere to under something called the common rule basically federal regulations for research. If they had done that this never would have happened. They would have been allowed to participate. So today just about an hour ago we filed a complaint with the Department of Health and Human Services Office of Human subject Research Protections o HRP and basically we're calling in the regulatory cops on the CIA and we're saying to each our P basically the Health and Human Services Enforcement Division. You need to investigate whether the CIA did what it was supposed to do. And if a crime was committed you need to refer that to the

Department of Justice. So I guess I was a little bit surprised to learn that. This stuff is actually over seen by netiquette professionals. Yes rather than trained military the CIA office of medical services which is a sub office of the Office of Technical Services right. That right away is problematic. It is problematic because the issue you're asking the 10 million dollar question Emily which is how the heck did these guys get in the room. Yeah and we've it's been eight years since more than eight years since 9/11 and we have more questions than answers people say. The CIA interrogation program is over because President Obama's executive order. Well what's over how many people were held in the program where the doctors come from. Did they have guidance about their legal responsibilities. We don't see it. And the fact is is that we can debate whether these tactics should have been used. But the American people have a right to know what was done in our name regardless of how we feel about it. And so this is not the indictment

Emilee This is the request for search warrant. As you probably know if you flip around the radio dial a lot of people are going to be looking at you in your report saying so what. How do you react. Well I react to it like this. Well the the so what is really not about them. It's about us to quote Senator McCain if we are calling an audible on the constitution putting an asterisk next to the prohibitions put in place because of behavior during the Second World War. Then all our law underneath the Constitution is conditional and let's get to the nub of the argument here. This is not about institutional review boards or the common role it's not about whether the doctors read the Hippocratic Oath. It's about who we are as a people and whether or our foundational values in terms of the Constitution and the rule of law still apply. If we don't investigate here and if we find crimes and we turn a blind eye because it's uncomfortable and it's politically radioactive

then we're saying something about how we relate to our laws. And that's the point. And we have let's have the debate right there because that's what it is underlying all of this. Well I know you've gotten some reaction to your report but it doesn't seem to be a lot of outrage isn't sparked that kind of demand that you've just raised that you know people should should know whether this is you know a case by case you know as you put it sort of an asterix situation where it works. We can we can do it in this case but not in that. Yeah where is the outrage. The I think that you said it yourself. This is a dense report. It is as the guy who led the writing of it I admit that and what we're trying. Well one reason why I'm here today is to try to basically take it from the density and distill the topline messages and I think that when we get the top line messages in the past few days and next few days out to the public we'll see where that reaches the complaint we filed today

is the first opportunity for average American citizens to hop on board a legal filing where they themselves can request investigation of the U.S. government. And I think if this always Sharpy complaint picks up steam we're going to see outrage. But the jury is still out. All right. Now they know Raymond who's the lead author of the study experiments in torture produced by the Physicians for Human Rights Campaign Against Torture. Fascinating thank you and I will keep our eye on it. All right we're going to take a short break and when we return Terri Stanley with tween takes. You're listening to the Emily Rooney show. The. Heat that hate the week the. At the the back. With.

Support for WGBH comes from you and from the New England mobile book fair in Newton New England's independent bookstore. The Book Fair is your school summer reading list headquarters more details online at any book fair dot com. That's an e-book fair dot com. And from the Boston Pops. Gospel night June 12th features conductor Charles Floyd. American Idol finalist Melinda Doolittle and other guest vocalists. Ticket information at 8 8 8 2 6 6 12 hundred. And from New England nurseries. A family business providing gardening enthusiastic with a wide selection of landscape supplies and services for over 100 years. Route 62 West in Bedford online at New England nurseries dot com. I'm Kelly Crossley. Coming up on the callee Crossley Show The Rise and Fall of Senator Dianne Wilkerson if she doesn't make a comeback What could her demise mean for black leadership in Boston. From there we continue our look at 3D technology and we top it off with comedian and newly minted Kennedy School grad Jimmy Tingle.

That's tomorrow one right after the Illini show only here on the new eighty nine point seven. WGBH. I am Brian O'Donovan. Has. Done anything 9.7. I'm inviting you to join the great singer songwriter Robineau Palmer and me this September for a six day tour of Scotland. With the WGBH learning tours we visit Edinburgh Castle. Tour the highlands and the lowlands. Spend a day in the famous town of St Andrews and each night sit in on lighting sessions with some of Scotland's finest musicians. Learn more at WGBH dot org slash learning tours. Emily Rooney and Cali cross I'm talking Boston on the Radio weekdays from noon to 2 on the new eighty nine point seven. WGBH. You're listening to the Emily Rooney show talk about a range of topics from

CIA experimental psychological torture or waterboarding to Terri Stanley with between takes. I want to pick up on psychological terror. You know waterboarding or no no no no it doesn't go their lifestyle you know. I've been great. I've seen a few weeks. Well we spent a very interesting weekend down the Cape. We were down in Hyannis Port this past weekend covering the best buddies challenge. We had interviewed Anthony Shriver. That's right in Florida a few weeks right a few weeks ago and so Anthony told us all about best buddies and how he found it in a way said then we want to tell us what it is and we covered the event Best Buddies is is when they when this organization pairs intellectually and developmentally. Alan challenge kids yes thank you very much. With friends with peers who are not disabled at all or intellectually or disabled you know mentally challenged so it's a friendship it's about you know having

friends with that and people that can bring you out into the world. These these kids are so great there's a lot of Down syndrome there's a lot of you know a lot of a lot of that. And I interviewed George Miller who is his best buddy So you know he was on television with me and he was talking about the fact that he set a job at the Hyatt for 14 years. And Anthony Shriver was saying Terry he said it's all about jobs for these people. He said you know actually the Massachusetts chapter of Best Buddies needs to place 10 more people before July 1st. So if there's anybody out there that has a job or a position or you know an opening I'm actually going to take I've got a couple of resumes from a couple of people that are associated with Best Buddies for style Boston so to have them come in and work with us in the production studio so they are really looking for that jobs are incredibly important. These these people are smart and they're dedicated and they're good workers and they just need somebody to give them a chance so that's basically what the program is about and so Anthony Shriver had the event this weekend down in Hyannis Port. And first it's kicked off with Tom Brady's

flag football game which we got which got covered in the thread that got a lot of attention back at a lot of attention and we were there at Harvard Stadium and we saw Carl Lewis was there because he was playing and he's amazing in the work that he's doing with kids and. And so we talk to him and then we could sit we covered the game and Tom's best buddy Katie Meade. She announced the game and he's been in she's been his best buddy for three years and she was amazing and incredibly articulate and smart and so she and she loves Tom Brady So she kind of teed off the ceremonies there and then we went down to Hyannis port the next day with our camera crew and we covered the race and Tom was in the race he did a 20 mile bike race. Bill Belichick and Linda holiday were there so we got them on camera too and Bill and Linda rode for 50 miles. Wow. I know the same bike or a separate separate bike than the thing about it is it's so funny because her birthday was the day before so they have a place I doubt in Nantucket and they threw a big birthday party for them and got home until 2:00 a.m. Saturday morning and then it was pouring rain so they couldn't

get a flight to Hyannis port so they had to take the high line and then jump on bikes and ride 50. Wow. So anyway so that. So we have them coming over the finish line. Hand in hand on their right to them between takes She's the president CEO of style Boston which airs Wednesdays on any CNN at 7:30 so. I don't know how she ever got an interview with Tom Brady but apparently she snagged one she snagged when she did she did so Tom after you know so he emceed a lot of the events right in the 20 mile bike race and then he took some time out to come over and talk to us and that was really great and I have to tell you first of all I have to say about Tom Brady he is absolutely gorgeous. I ran into him on the street not too long ago. You know he lives sort of in my neighborhood he's in your neighborhood but but you know the thing about him is Emily is he doesn't even look like a football player now and I was slim the No-Fly know and slender and he's got the long hair going on which I think is a just a fact very well I think you know she's kind of dressing him in the interview just so and that he was actually

talking about yesterday so he was actually talking about it while he was talking to Linda and then he was to he was talking about his best buddy but then he started to talk about the fact that he was a father. So it's we're going to listen to it. It's a great part of my life you know and I didn't really think I'd have kids for a long time certainly till I was at the end of my playing career. You know I have two of them and I'm 32 years old so you know they're great boys and they add so much to my life and I'm so excited for you have so much love for J.A. love as they get older I can rough house with you know my oldest son always wants to go to a football stadium so bright I can't wait for the season and I'm not going to say the day is going to kind of roughhouse you back away OK. I did that with my dad he said OK we're not playing anymore. When I when I started it was a tough tough hard hitting interview. Well there's a lot of stuff you know so anyway so we talked about it so we talked about his kids he also talked about their season coming up you know getting men you know mentally tough prepared he said Everybody's in really good shape he said Coach It was a funny thing he said about Belichick though he said you know he turned to

Lyndon he said you know the coach is getting soft. He said you know he's getting older and you get a little soft so I think you get to tell him to be tougher or you know you really wonder about Tom Brady I mean how he juggles all of the mean his just extraordinary celebrity he's not just a celebrity in Boston I mean he is an international celebrity now and of course she also and she's still the top earning model so she made what was it. Thirty two million dollars right. I ran into the both of them one night walking across the street and calm af and I was with Craig right. And he says they stopped to let the dogs you know sniff around some trees or something just now's her chance I said. As for what he says to go talk to him I said No now is our chance to leave them alone Zach you know I saw you but you know there they were you know right you know and he was actually his he was so gracious over the weekend and so they had a lunch at the Shriver house. So I went to the Shriver house and I met Ethel Kennedy which was really fantastic she looks great you know I saw her the other night at the Pops event she's in her 80s and you know it looks real strong and she's so sharp and I went up to her and I said to her I said Listen I said I interviewed you nephew

on style bosons. And she says to me she goes Well do you have a business card Terry because I'll check it out on your website and so I said no she absolutely totally and I said absolutely Here you go and I handed it she goes OK she goes I want to watch the show and check out this interview. Oh yeah that's impressive you know that my father could not do that was very impressive you know and then the Shriver home it was that was that was so really cool to be there you know in the car at the end of the compound is right down the down the way but the Shriver home is right on the ocean it's absolute beautiful but it's like it's a throwback in time. Nothing's you know nothing's really been done to it it's not like all the Kennedys were kind of like that. They really only I mean the bathrooms the kitchens all that kind of thing it hasn't been modernized or updated so it really looks like a home that you walk into in the 50s or 60s. So that was really cool you know and so anyways Ethel was there and he had all these kids there and his wife Elena was there and so that was great Tom was gracious he came to the lunch he brought his dog to the lunch. Got a pit bull he's got a pit bull and she's beautiful and she was so cute and so she is of course the star of the show

at the launch and he you know got up and spoke about his involvement with best buddies and how much it means to him and so I think that that was it's a huge coup for them to have him as a spokesperson. All right talking to Terry Stanley. We're doing between takes. She's also the president CEO style Boston. What else you got. Yes and they went with Evelyn not STA But Evelyn Evelyn Lauder. I'm saying that one louder and louder. Yes yes. Evelyn actually is on the show tonight. I was in I interviewed her when she was here for the Breast Cancer hot pink party and so I got to interview her and that was very interesting to meet her. She's so so what is her relationship to stay. She is the daughter in law she married a stay son Leonard and they met on a blind date and I said and I turned to her and I said Well that was a good choice. Yeah it was a good yeah yeah. So she goes on the blind date with him and then estée Lauder has gets breast cancer and that's how Evelyn got involved in breast cancer she also works in the corporation I mean she you

know she you know I don't you know it's just a letter still. No she's not she died of breast cancer actually. And Evelyn Lauder herself had breast. So yeah oh no so it was all like that but she got it but Evelyn got involved with the Breast Cancer Awareness and the Breast Cancer Foundation because of her mother in law's illness and now is Evelyn is also the one that came up with the hot but the bourbon the pink ribbon and then she goes on knowing what the pink ribbon. Well it you know it is there's a lot of you know it comes from the front a lot of it is fraudulent and fake the Boston Globe just a big take out on this you know it's put on all the cereals and all the right and you know breast cancer doesn't get anything for that Breast Cancer Foundation. Right right. So this is like playing to your guilt or whatever. So you know well she was the one that came up with the. Well they might have been a stupid idea in the beginning you know it's really right. But that but you know but she does raise I mean she raised she raised about 280000 that night when she was in town and you know they've raised an incredible amount of money so there was a lot of money that goes to really wondering what they do with all that money I mean as I've said for many years now that

the technology is Byzantine still all these years later you know. Mammogram that technology is the same as it was 50 years ago did you know that. Well it changed it. Well she said that there's a lot of research being done in Massachusetts 20 out of the 80 doctors that they have that are head of this research for breast cancer are in Massachusetts so she's up there with. Yeah absolutely and she said that they are making strides that you know that women are being diagnosed earlier that you know that it's not if it's not a fatal disease anymore they just need to know what causes that. That's right they just yeah exactly they don't know what causes it it's so that they still don't know but she said women are well aware of it at a much younger age than they were. Most people think that you know if somebody in your family had if that's only 15 percent you know absolute most of it is serendipity. Most of it is serendipity. You know so it begs it begs the question how come what you know how come you know if you're five out of eight women have it. You know what's the relationship there. So anyways but. So she was lovely and she talked about you know about the about the foundation she talked about her marriage. She's been married for 51 years and she was so cute she said she got married

when she was four. Yes to that it would have been a lot of eggs that exactly not so sure but she really was she was lovely he says yes he's still alive and she goes on to tell Leonard Leonard to talk about how she loves how he smells. Oh no cut it out she loves you he wears airiness and so she says she says Terry she's got a big cologne purse she said to this day she said I just love the way he smells and just the way that she talks about it you know she's an accomplished photographer she was opening an exhibit in Paris June 1st. And when it's an interview on that is on tonight and I want to know that for a night I'll do like Ethel Kennedy and watch it on the website check it out online. I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm well almost dropped I'm like really. OK sure I have a car. There you go. So she was great so that you know so we've got Evelyn Lauder on tonight. And who do you have for a power player. That's Evelyn that is yeah that's a good one. That's who I have for power play tonight so it's a good interview but she really is lovely. And but you know it's kind of funny because she's a she's very also very removed from reality.

What a surprise you know. I mean you know really and she goes she lives she lives in New York. Yeah I live in New York I'm probably multiple houses all over the place. Talks about Elizabeth Hurley and how important it is to have Elizabeth Hurley and she's still the face and she's still the face. Yes you still have that idiot Hugh Grant though no no no no no I don't know who she's with but she really truly is beautiful and I'm going to tell you she's not young anymore and no she's not. No she's not but she's still the face of of. You know the hot pink and breast cancer and everything else and Elizabeth Hurley's mother had it that's why she said yes that's why she's so motivated. So it was you know so you kind of find out all about that. Yeah. On the show. But but Evelyn is a hoot she's 70 something she looks fantastic. She's got a McQueen dress on that is a knockout. And I was very impressed. All right anything else we need to know about this. No I really think that that's kind of about we've got the Louise party tomorrow night. Oh yeah I know I said I would you had you said you having to go on vacation. I need to rearrange my sock drawer. No I'm just packing to go on vacation right I'm picking you up at eight

o'clock. Yeah yeah we're going. Emily Rooney I can sort of see what you would have run down to feed NPR tomorrow night where on the waterfront. How do you get there. Put it on your jeans. Yeah it's going to be a great party I need to go to a party Newbury Street League is having their gala tomorrow night and which we're going to cover in there we're going to hop off to Louise what's Newbury Street Newbury Street League is what is it. Yeah it's well it's their annual fundraiser which they're having at the Mandarin Hotel right tomorrow night. You know everybody will talk oh yeah yeah. Terry said maybe between takes and President CEO of style Boston so Boston airs tonight at 7:30. Thanks for being here. Thank you did a couple weeks. OK all right well it took a hundred two days and he lost more than 30 pounds in the process. But in April Marshfield Leo resign he became the oldest American to row across an ocean. He'll join us tomorrow. And meantime tune in to Greater Boston tonight at 7:00 p.m. Only when the show is a production of eighty nine point seven WGBH Boston NPR station

producing culture on the web at WGBH dot org slash. Emily Rooney the Kelly Crossley Show is coming up next on Emily Rooney. Have a great.