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From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi saying President Obama is expected to call for a new round of tax breaks for businesses under a plan Mr. Obama set to unveil tomorrow in Cleveland businesses would be able to write off 100 percent of their new capital investments through next year. But Republicans are firmly opposed. House Minority Leader John Boehner says the White House should focus on cutting spending not adding to it. Well the administration is under more pressure this election year to generate jobs confronted with a high unemployment rate. However Melanie Holmes vice president of manpower says despite all the negative economic news recently it appears the situation is improving however slightly. A year ago we were in negative territory. We actually had an seasonally adjusted net employment outlook of minus 2 percent and our. Seasonally adjusted employment outlook for the coming quarter is a positive 5 percent. Oh but fears over the health of European banks today sent stocks in the U.S. down. Dow's down 81 to ten thousand three hundred sixty seven at last check and NASDAQ is down 19 a 20 to 14 firefighters

continue to battle a stubborn blaze west of Boulder Colorado that's forced thousands of people from their homes and burned many structures. Kirk Siegler of member station KUNC has this update from Boulder. The fire is burning through steep and rugged pine forest in the hills about eight miles west of Boulder. It's in a heavily populated area with numerous subdivisions and cabins. More than 3000 people have been evacuated and there's little chance they'll get back home today. Boulder County Sheriff Commander Rick Bruff says crews are hoping to get the upper hand this afternoon because winds are forecast to be fairly calm. What the prediction is is three to six miles per hour so that's much favorable for the firefighters today. That's going to allow us to get air tankers up in the air. The fire exploded on Labor Day with erratic wind gusts up to 45 miles an hour in air tankers and helicopters were unable to attack it. Its cause is under investigation. For NPR News I'm Kirk Siegler in Boulder Colorado. There has been an explosion at a refinery outside of the northern Mexican city of Monterrey. Number of deaths or injuries at the petroleum Mexicanos facility or

make on this facility that is is still unknown. There has been another bombing in northwestern Pakistan the second in less than 24 hours. At least 16 people were killed in the explosion at a police compound in Colo. Authorities say the dead were the wives and children of police officers. An additional 60 people were injured. The Pakistani Taliban has claimed responsibility for a series of recent attacks. The violence further complicates Pakistan's efforts to deal with a flood related humanitarian crisis that affects millions of people. Dow's down 81 at ten thousand three hundred sixty seven Nasdaq losing 20 points at last check a 20 to 14 S&P 500 down 10 at ten ninety four. This is NPR News. The top U.S. NATO commander in Afghanistan is warning that a Florida based church's plan to burn copies of the Muslim holy book on the anniversary of 9/11 will endanger American lives in Afghanistan and worldwide. More from NPR's Soraya Sarhaddi

Nelson in Kabul. In an e-mail to reporters General David Petraeus says extremists would use photos of any Koran burning to incite violence here in Afghanistan and around the world. That's because any damage or show of disrespect to the Koran is deeply offensive to Muslims. At Monday's protest hundreds of Afghans burned American flags in an effigy of the pastor who is calling for the Koran burning. A U.S. military convoy passing by the rally was briefly pelted with stones until organizers ordered the protesters to stop. Petraeus warned images of burning Korans could lead to violence similar to what happened with photos taken at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison in 2005. Fifteen people died and scores were wounded in riots in Afghanistan sparked by false allegations that interrogators at Guantanamo Bay flushed a Koran down the toilet. Soraya Sarhaddi Nelson NPR News Kabul. Tropical storm Hermine is lashing Texas with heavy rains in an area struck by Hurricane Alex earlier this summer. Rain made landfall in northeastern Mexico late

last night and crossed into south Texas within hours. The man who killed John Lennon is up for parole again Mark David Chapman is hearing at the Attica Correctional Facility may be held as early as Tuesday. This will be the sixth time in nearly 30 years Chapman will attempt to get parole. Chapman is serving time for gunning down the former Beatle outside his Manhattan home in December of one thousand eighty. I'm Lakshmi Singh NPR News in Washington. Support for NPR comes from the John S. and James L. Knight Foundation helping NPR advance journalistic excellence in the digital age. Good afternoon I'm Kalee Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show. Today we continue our 2010 mass decision election coverage with Democrat state senator Robert O'Leary. He's running to fill William Delahunt seat in the 10th Congressional District. Senator O'Leary welcome. Thank you very much for having me here today.

That is a very intense race in the tell you. I think you're our last person who's running that we've been speaking to. So let's begin this way. I was going to say you know the last and not the hope on the last day. That's what your central message to people in that district. Well you know I've of course represented the Cape and Islands for a lot of years and of course the 10th Congressional is an area that shares a lot in common. There are issues environmental issues education. Clearly most importantly that was the whole issue of jobs and the economy. People are out of work. People are losing their homes in some cases people are struggling we need to get the economy going again we need to you know grow jobs in the district that's something I've done well as a state senator and I want to continue that tradition in Congress. What are you hearing with regard to the anti-incumbent fever which is translating to in some ways to I don't want anybody new and it's not that you would this would be a new job for you it would be but you've been around for a while and well-known.

Yes. Oh there it's out there I mean there's no question that people are very frustrated they're angry at Washington and they feel like you know Washington is not listening to them. I think a lot of incumbents are at risk. People are you know it's a bit of the blame game going on out there and that's totally understandable given the circumstances. You know someone like myself you know I've been and I'm not. Career politician I don't mean I don't necessarily hold it against someone but the reality is almost I'm a teacher I've been a history professor history teacher most of my life and became a community activist on the Cape became very active on a lot of environmental issues on the Cape. And then in 2000 was elected to the state Senate but I've always kept my hand in teaching I teach history at Mass Maritime Academy I still do that part time. So I think I bring a little bit of a perspective from outside even though I've been involved and I've been a legislator and a senator for the Cape and Islands one of the things that the Boston Globe in its endorsement of use.

I like the fact that yeah thank you very much. You're welcome. They say that they appreciate your focus on education and in fact the way they read your work is that if the education. Drive that you have and focus rather that you have will lead to jobs in Massachusetts so that's one of the reasons why they are suggesting you over your other of the year Democratic. I was very very very pleased with that in the globe. I did point out I mean I've been you know education's been who I am and I brought that passion and commitment to you know education in the form of my role in the Senate I'm chairman of the Education Committee. Before that I was chairman of the Committee on higher public higher education and very involved in with the governor and my house counterpart in moving ahead on this reform bill that we did this past year that I think was the first major reform since 1903 in Massachusetts. And which as a result of the passage of that bill we were able to get rated

frankly by the by federal authorities number one in the country in terms of competing for what's called Race to the top money and that now has resulted in some two hundred fifty million dollars in federal money coming into Massachusetts starting literally this week. I believe the money is now starting to flow in. So that was a significant accomplishment of a very proud of that. And Arnie Duncan the secretary of education came up to Massachusetts twice. In the last several months and he was commenting and talked to us about this and made made it clear that what we were doing here in Massachusetts was something they wanted to model at the federal level. And in terms of revisiting George Bush's No Child Left Behind federal law which is frankly needs to be revisited So Massachusetts has the opportunity I think to play a leadership role in terms of national education policy and I would very much like to be a part of that. But I think the other point I want to make and I make over and over again is that this is our great advantage here in the state. Let's say we have the best

public schools in the United States and some of the probably the best colleges and universities in the world. And that combination is really sort of the one two punch for Massachusetts economically. That's what separates us from other parts of the country. That's a great advantage and we have to continue to invest in it and grow it and make sure that we stay you know in that situation and at that point and in the in the you know in the system across the country. Now your opponent William Keating has said that it's great that you're offering your services as an adjunct professor at the Maritime Academy that he perceives to be a conflict of interest because you know you could be voting against voting for benefits for the university in which you work. Well you know I kind of took my breath away honestly because you know Bill was a lawyer. In the legislature practicing law when he was a senator. Apparently there's no conflict there but if you're a teacher teaching a

night school class or a summer school class and you're also a state senator somehow or other there's a conflict. And I think it's absurd on the face of it. Clearly you know the state ethics commission thought it was absurd on the face of it. And you know I just saw it as kind of a political sort of attack at a time that it just didn't make any sense to me and I reject it out of hand and I think it's it's unfortunate that even surface to my opinion about how to deal with it. Well as I said at the beginning the 10th Congressional District is getting a lot of attention nationally and of course it's a big race here in Massachusetts but national primarily because this Scott Brown's right winning area and he has endorsed no surprise a Republican candidate Jeff Perry who has a mojo going. I mean frankly. Not only an endorsement but with others. This is got the Mitt Romneys as well. Absolutely.

So how do you how do you compete with that and what do you say to people who are saying well I know I'm in a heavily Democratic area I voted that way but like Scott Brown might like what Jeff period. Well first of all I know Scott Brown I served with him in the Senate. And I know Jeff Perry. I've served with him in the legislature. Jeff Perry is not Scott Brown I mean I think that's a think first of all Jeff would acknowledge as well. You know my sense of it is this is a district that is dominated by independents it's not it's not an overwhelmingly Democratic It's not an overwhelmingly Republican district. And I know people are looking at the Scott Brown race and what happened in January December and January and saying this is an early indicator but I think what we saw there in my opinion was not so much a vote against incumbency against a sense of political entitlement I think people sense that was out there as well and frankly expressing some frustration. But I don't think it's necessarily a vote for Republicans or Democrats it was a vote for change. And I think when people look at

me in this campaign and look at. What I think will be my Republican opponent in this campaign are going to see very sharp differences. They're very clear. I believe that I've been a fairly moderate independent Democrat. I've got I'm fairly liberal on some issues fairly conservative on other ones. I think I like to say Kerry Chatham every two years I'm the first Democrat ever elected to the state senate or a county office on the Cape since the Civil War. You know I appeal to independents. I have a history of that I've done well. And I think the issues that I find passion about education and the environment and job creation Those are issues that resonate with voters and so I'm fairly optimistic that in the end people will take a hard look at each of the candidates and make a judgment and I think I'll do well. The Boston Globe described you as a pragmatic progressive. I don't know. They're not and they noticed several things that one of the things that they raise that they disagree with you about is your

stand on it. Yeah Bill Keating changed his stance saying the BP oil spill made it impossible not to look for renewable energy even if it's more expensive at the moment. Your response. Well it's this has been probably the most difficult issue for me on a personal level because much of what the finds me politically has been my commitment to environmental issues. And I point out that I wrote the oceans Management Act the first such legislation in the country that opened up Massachusetts waters to offshore renewables set up a zoning process we've now established commercial and what we call community scale wind and we expect we're going to see windmills along the Massachusetts coastline as a result of the legislation. I literally not only you know got passed in the house in the legislature it took us four years to do so but literally rode it conceived in and rode it and President Obama has now replicated a similar model at the federal level through an executive officer to take a lot of pride in that.

My problem with Cape Wind was very early on was the fact that it didn't have a process in place to deal with I thought fundamental questions around. Competitive bidding transparency and frankly the price of the electricity that comes off the project. We need to do renewables in Massachusetts. Absolute committed to that I get a record a mile long to demonstrate it. But we have to be smart about it we have to do the ones that are most cost effective and the problem with Cape Wind is now emerging The concern is that it will be twice as expensive the energy coming off it will be twice as expensive as competitive renewable energy available in the Massachusetts market. That's a question that needs to be resolved that's the question that's before the Department of Public Utilities. We need to do renewables. We need to recognize we're going to pay more for him but we need to do the cost effective ones because in the other there's another issue out there Massachusetts has the fifth highest electric rates in the United States of America. And you know we need to make sure that we remain competitive. We need to go green but we need to do it in a way that I

think reflects our fundamental need to be competitive as well. We need to be smart about it. I'm not saying that Cape Wind doesn't make sense but we need to get that rate down. And I know the attorney general is trying to do that. And I think and I'm hopeful that they can and if they can then I can support the project but if it's just two or three times more expensive then. When coming out of Vermont or New Hampshire that's available here in the Massachusetts market that's green. I think we should be buying that energy first. And that's where my concerns are. Well it's a polarizing issue so I think a lot of people will vote along those lines whatever they are. I think the problem with Cape Wind is this become a defining issue a signature issue. And it's unfortunate because we spent 10 years debating this and really what we need to do is be moving towards renewables and a whole variety of fronts. I pushed very heavily for the whole business of efficiency. That's where the real low hanging fruit is and I was very much involved in some of the early legislation in the state around efficiency

energy efficiency and particularly green communities. And the governor is proud of pointing out now and I think this reflects well on all of us who are involved in it that Massachusetts now has a higher per capita expenditure on energy efficiency than any other state in the country including California we're number one on this. And so we're on a whole variety of fronts around around going green. Energy efficiency solar you know moving to natural gas which doesn't get enough attention here in the state we've moved away from oil that's bigger than just me it's that's the problem. He's going to get sort of taken up all the space and I think it's missed. And it's an important issue I don't deny that. I mean my efforts most people don't know that we have zoned off Martha's Vineyard. We're talking about early off Martha's Vineyard and 80 windmill commercial site ready for a developer that I think we're going to see development on fairly in a fairly short order completely off the map excuse me completely off the map because everything else has been displaced by that discussion.

It's too bad. One last question. Money often defines these things these days sorry to say that as a citizen but we're in now the the big push toward the primary. Correct and you are sixty one thousand dollars approximately. Bill Keating has doubled that at least in general Aires beating all of you at the moment. How can you compete with with the right message and the right candidate. I think my record speaks for itself. As you pointed out the Boston Globe indorse may have got enormous support in the Cape and Islands where I'm well-known and I'm getting much better known in Queens in Weymouth and up the south coast. So I'm feeling I'm feeling pretty good about it. We have you know we did some early polling a couple weeks ago we were ahead despite the fact that we're being outspent in some cases two and three to one. And I think once we get beyond the primaries I'm optimistic that we will know some more money will come in right now it's a family fight you know in the sense that you know Democrat against Democrat once that that passes I think we're going to

consolidate around a candidate this is an important race. You know what's at stake here is not only the local issues here on the 10th but there's the broader issue of what's happening in Washington. The whole Obama administration's agenda whether Washington is going to be able to work for us or whether we're going to get you know seized up with this kind of gridlock that frankly the Republican candidates are advocating for. It's all about no it's all about going in reverse it's all about undoing what's what progress has been made sense. You know 2008 and I I don't think that's a message that plays well. Well we're going to find out soon. I'm Calla Crossley. We've been speaking with state senator Robert O'Leary a Democrat running for the 10th congressional district center only we thank you so much for joining us. Thank you very much for having me. Tomorrow tune into the Emily Rooney show at noon to hear a debate among all the candidates running for the 10th Congressional District. We'll also be doing an analysis of the debate following the Emily Rooney show. Coming up rethinking

tenure in the 21st century. We'll be back after this break stay with us. Support for WGBH comes from you. And from new Repertory Theatre. Presenting Boston Marriage a biting comedy by David Mamet. The award winning playwright of Speed the Plow. You can find more information online at new rep dot org. And from. It's your move. Inc. Founded in 2002. It's your move manages residential moves for seniors from de-cluttering your current home to setting up your new home. More info at it's your move Inc dot com.

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Join us. Turn your unwanted vehicle into a tax deductible contribution to public radio. It's easy to do through the WGBH vehicle donation program to learn more call. Eight six six four hundred nine four to four that's eight six six four hundred WGBH. Good afternoon I'm Kalee Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show with the academic year underway. We're taking a look at tenure and asking if it's time to rethink the long institutionalized tradition. I'm joined by Cary Nelson president of the American Association of University Professors and a professor of English at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. And by Cathy Trower senior research associate at Harvard University's collaborative on academic careers in higher education. Welcome to you both. Hi. Glad to be here. But

before we dive in listeners we want to hear from you. Are you a professor who has found that academic freedom comes with tenure is job security. Or do you find that the tenure track is too confining. Does it cause complacency among faculty. What is your experience. Give us a call at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. That's 8 7 7 3 0 1. Eighty nine seventy two my guess I have to say that prior to getting ready for this. Conversation I didn't realize the depth of intensity of about this discussion. It's pretty intense. And before we go one step further I want to give my listeners just this little bit of context. And 1975 57 percent of all college professors had tenure or were on tenure track. And in 2007 that number had fallen to 31 percent. And we are having this conversation at a time when there is a new federal report expected to be released soon that's expected also to show that that

number has dropped even further. So that's where we are. But Cathy if I start with you. You say that may not be such a horrible thing. Numbers are bad but maybe tenure isn't the be all that it's always been cracked up to be. That's true I do believe that. I think that there's a number of shifts that have taken place in the academy and in the world that are showing that the tenure system is not necessarily the. Best mode of employment for faculty and Cary Nelson you're on the other side. And you say well you lose a lot if tenure goes away. Well one one way of putting it bluntly is to say do we want our faculty members to teach with courage or do we want them to teach with cowardice. And if we want them to teach with courage if we want them to speak forthrightly in front of their students if we want them to take risks in challenging their students then they need the job security that comes with tenure.

And it's a system in the United States that isn't quite a hundred years old but it's coming close and it has worked well and guaranteed us the best higher education system in the world. So I think it needs to be shored up. It's been modernized in some key ways but it is nonetheless the system that works. Well one of the reasons that there is even more increased interest around this discussion is just the general state of the economy which has universities caught in the crosshairs if you will. They have to make some decisions about staying in the business of educating students. Any parent can tell you any parent of a child in college that the price of tuition has gone through the roof. And one of the reasons cited for the fact that tuition and other costs are and is so hard for universities to keep a budget is that they have to maintain the tenured professors. They don't have a permanent job they're there and they make a decent salary. And so it restricts them from being able to do some other things.

Kathy is that what your research has shown. My research does not look at that specifically but I think the data are out there that show that that is true the tenured faculty represent a fixed cost. And one of the issues there that we're coming up against today is the fact that institutions would like to have even tenured faculty to teach more sections teach perhaps bigger classes. But in fact tenured faculty do not necessarily have to do so so institutions are hiring more part time faculty adjunct faculty to pick up that course load because tenured faculty do not have to necessarily take that on. And the ad actually. Look at me and let me just add this to my listeners adjunct professors are making far less than tenured professors would be sometimes fifteen hundred dollars a semester so we're we're talking about a deferent a definite difference in the kind of monies that universities have to

spend if there are hiring adjunct professors versus retaining tenure track professors or tenured professors. I mean the book that if you look at a typical university budget the amount of money spent on faculty salaries is about one third of the total cost of running the campus. One the another third goes to administration and I think that's where we've seen the highest salary growth and indeed the highest growth in the number of full time employees. And it's insane. I mean the mission of higher education is teaching. And for a limited number of schools the mission is the additional mission is research. There's a lot of money that could be saved by cutting back on unnecessary administration. Unnecessary building projects. I mean there is money that can be saved in higher education. And there are certainly you know some limited number of faculty members who I think are overpaid though it's far more administrators who are overpaid but

you know the fact that the the personnel budget for teachers is only one third of the total does not suggest that that's really the major source of increased tuition funds I mean that the main source for public institutions of increased tuition is that over the last 15 years or so longer in some states public funding for higher education has decreased. And you know school after school you know they get a dollar less in state appropriations and they increase tuition by a dollar it's it's really cost shifting and so fundamental is our commitment to at least Republican higher education to how it's going to be funded. Taking that all into consideration. I also wonder though Kathy if we have a situation that some younger professors are feeling as though well if I'm going to commit to the con the years and years and years that I would to get to tenure if I'm so lucky as to get there you know what in

the end does it benefit me for my whole list my whole life. So some are making different kinds of choices I don't want to be on this track for this long on the hope that I will get this I want to do different things. And isn't that what your work has shown. Yes. My work has shown that there are a couple of big problems with the tenure system as younger generations of faculty perceive it first. It's rigidity that is it's in flexibility in terms of six years up aroud. And that it seems to be quite unrealistic for young scholars for a number of reasons related to that that our current publishing has changed a great deal that has lead times are much longer for academic journals and the academic presses are publishing fewer books. The competition for grant funding is tougher than ever. There are biological clock issues for women because the biological clock typically collides with the 10 year clock. During those childbearing years and dual careers are now the norm most academics are partnered or married to another

academic and life is much more complicated so to have people on this rigid six years up or out simply does not fit for many people. Again we're not that's and that's exactly why so many schools have modified their tenure system. I mean once women began thankfully to enter the academy in large numbers and many disciplines at this point now produce roughly 50 percent women 50 percent men Ph.D.s higher education began to adjust so the system in many institutions no longer is inflexible. Many many institutions now give time off for childbearing and childrearing they give time off for caring for an elderly parent. There's you know there are lots of arrangements now to adjust to the requirements of family life and what you know one of the one of the strangest arguments I think is the argument that you know faculty devote too much time to research when in fact of the

3500 college and university campuses in the country I would say no more than 10 percent really have significant numbers of faculty devoted to research it's a small percentage of the institutions and everyone benefits from that research the public benefits from it. And it's what keeps disciplines up to date. So faculty members who don't teach can still stay up to date in their fields and I think the higher education has done a lot to make the tenure system more flexible. That was Cary Nelson president of the American Association of University Professors and we've also we're also speaking with Cathy Trower a senior research associate at Harvard and I want to leave you both with this comment from our Facebook page because I know that our listeners believe me we live in a in a town that's full of professors or people who are teaching. Somebody wants to call in and make a comment. So I think that maybe Tim from our Facebook page is saying what a lot of

people would say but they don't want their voices recognized I'm going to read it. Here's what Tim says. I know of several excellent junior professors at various colleges who were forced out for frivolous or economic reasons. While some this is in caps of the tenured professors had become out of touch with the times tools and fast changing professional fields they were once equipped to teach leaving students to suffer academically while the tenured professors rolled their professional gravy train to the grave. Now we're going to go to break. Callers call and respond to Tim get ready Cathy get ready Cary Nelson to respond to Jim. We're at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8. And we'll be back after this break. Stay with us. Support for WGBH comes from you and from Suffolk University

located in the heart of Boston with strong ties to the city's business legal and educational communities. Suffolk University. Dedicated to excellence in teaching scholarship and service. Suffolk dot edu. And from opera Boston this season features Gill roots conducting Beethoven's Fifth in. Hindemith's cardiac and Morris all at the cup for me just to get. More information online at Opera Boston org. Hi I'm Annie cops food editor at Yankee Magazine. Hope you join me for the WGBH learning tourist taste of Europe getaway. The chefs will board the marina at the newest luxury liner in the Oceana fleet and explore Paris Rome London and Barcelona. Well try new dishes learn new techniques and take some time to savor the good life. For dates and booking information visit WGBH dot org

slash learning to. Get a long commute car trip or just a quick jaunt across town wouldn't be the same without public radio. Then consider supporting the programs you love through the WGBH vehicle donation program. Just call 866 409 3:56. A representative will arrange a time to pick up your unwanted vehicle and take care of the paperwork and you'll support WGBH and qualify for a tax deduction. That number again is 8 6 6 400 9 4 2 4. This is eighty nine point seven WGBH Boston NPR station for trusted voices and local conversation with FRESH AIR and the Emily Rooney show. The new eighty nine point seven. WGBH. Good afternoon I'm callin Crossley and this is the Calla Crossley Show. If you're just tuning in we're talking about rethinking tenure in the 21st century. I'm joined by Cary Nelson

president of the American Association of University Professors and a professor of English at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. And by Cathy Trower a senior research associate at Harvard University's collaborative on academic careers and higher education. Listeners to get in on this conversation give us a call at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. That's 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Before we went to break I read a message from Tim from our Facebook page. Cathy says excellent junior professors at various colleges being forced out for frivolous or economic reasons while the tenured professors who are out of touch. And are not up to date on the fields that they were once equipped to teach and they're leaving the students to suffer. I'd like you to respond and Carrie respond briefly because our phone lines are lighting up. Go ahead Cathy. I think there's two things that are important here we no longer have a mandatory retirement age for faculty and therefore indeed faculty are staying well beyond age 65

especially given the economic situation. So there they are staying in those tenured professor positions and I think secondly those who have tenure decide who gets it. And I talked to a number of senior scholars who say our tenured faculty who say I never would have gotten tenure under today's standards that it has we've ratcheted up the expectations so I think Tim has a valid point. And Carol. Well first of all you need to understand that tenure is not a guarantee of lifetime employment it's a guarantee of lifetime employment if you continue to fulfill your responsibilities. What tenure is as a guarantee of fairness and due process as an employee. I mean I've seen faculty with tenure lose their jobs. I've seen faculty with tenure be demoted to low level administrative positions. I've seen faculty with tenure be denied salary increases when they fail to perform adequately year after year. There are many many ways of making sure that

people fulfill their responsibilities but frankly you know and this is the dirty little secret in academia. The problem is not with tenure. The problem is with sloppy hiring. If you hire really carefully and if you hire people who are deeply passionate about the work that they do about the teaching that they do about the research that they do that passion will not disappear with tenure. But if you hire casually then you know you come up against difficult tenure decisions. OK and potentially you've come up with problems afterwards. All right we have several callers. Dean from Rhode Island Go ahead please. Yes I'm a professor emeritus at University of Rhode Island. So you get it all right. Yes go ahead. I'm a staunch defender of tenure and it's not a matter of color. When the question is is it only related to the fact that mathematics is the most feared and despised of academic academic subjects but it's

certainly straight ahead. The actual menace comes from the faculty colleagues themselves. Oh without tenure which can be denied by your colleagues because they make the decision and sometimes the deed but went on chan you're going to get rid of you because they don't like computers or are junk or your clothes or other things like this. And would you like I think the pot I think the point the main the caller's point is basically that the tenure process when it's observed carefully means that a dossier is assembled with your teaching record in the dossier with your service record with your research record if it's if it's available and relevant with outside letters from people who evaluate your work in other words the tenure process establishes Thayer and agreed upon procedures for evaluating people and without it evaluation would be you know helter

skelter and chaotic. Well that's the way it's supposed to work. Kathy Trower it doesn't always work in that way I mean for many reasons but I certainly need to speak up as a person of color to say that I know for faculty of color that being on the tenure track process often is fraught with a lot of kinds of personal and other issues that you know some of their other colleagues do not have to face and that's part and parcel of it. But that's there you have it. So that needs to be on the table as well as we're having this discussion Kathy would you like to respond. I would agree that we hear from a lot of young scholars of color as well as women in science technology engineering and math where they are in a minority that they face issues of gender and race and they experienced the tenure track differently than white males. OK we have another Caller go ahead Jasmine. Try I'm actually a fellow Wellesley and I

was a professor the most timely way waited by a student and I'm widely published I continued to be published but you know I willingly left left academia because I was the International executive. So the lifestyle that I want to be academic compensation is absolutely not appropriate. However that is based on how the way she expressed it would say that academics are not supposed to be interested in finances or being well-off. I mean there you go. It's in our spoken truth. But the slavery that academics are expected to live through is just utterly ridiculous. So I want to travel internationally if I want to. But the lifestyle I would have you know I did not want to put up with the years leading to telling you and I talk for 40 years and did exceedingly well. Kerry that has come up often is that some professors feel as though you know there are other opportunities they could get outside of academia I guess your point that if we don't try to retain some of this great

talent at university level you know in some other supportive ways they'll they'll go away and we'll lose them to other institutions. Well I mean look 80 percent of the people in front of and standing in front of an American college or university classroom earn $60000 or less. So it's no gravy train for most people. And the caller is right that many academics you know settle for a lower income in exchange for a lifestyle that you know can be remarkable what's remarkable about it is that you follow your intellectual interests that you have these amazing conversations with your students that you know several times a week you are intellectually stimulated and in a remarkable way by your human contacts and you know there's nothing else quite like it if you're in that situation I mean. If I want to talk about a book I has signed the book to my students and we have a great conversation about it and you know I don't know few other places in the world where you can live a lifestyle like that. That is so

focused on intellectual realities and now I'm willing to pay a financial price for that it's worth it. But it's also tenure that makes that possible to survive in many cases on a lower income because you have job security. OK. So it's a system. And you know the system works when you have one of the thing I forgot to say is that you know you brought up the issue of race and I think you know especially if there are only a few minority members in your school or in your department very special care needs to be taken that they are not overburdened with service during their their probationary period. I mean they really need to be protected because everybody wants to get the black faculty member on a committee. But there's a limit to how many committees they should serve on so I think that it is true that you know schools that aren't careful about protecting their minority faculty members subject them to excess responsibilities during the tenure process.

We have another caller Igor from Boston Go ahead please. Well you know I I'm just going to comment on this message on Facebook. I believe it was different age groups of professors I graduated from once more advanced enough technology last year and I absolutely agree with them that there is some sort of a you know we have to look at the age and the technology that technology is moving forward at a pace and I believe you know we need to be we need to be on that because I experience that myself and the older professor who is trying to again to his left up where he has his knowledge for 20 minutes just not cutting it you know like a part time you know coming coming after his 9:00 to 5:00 shift coming to your school to share his knowledge. You know I would rather see you know just wasting wasting time I mean there is not sense to like the older professors they have definitely

have probably more life experience and knowledge but you know and as I said it was a it was a school of the speculative knowledge and you know might as well take advantage of it because thats what I want for you now. This was this was let our guests respond to that Igor you raised some excellent points. I mean I graduated last year I mean I experience that myself when I heard that. And that's it from someone like that just on your own right. What are you hearing. Well I carry you you might say that this is a situation of sloppy hiring would you would you say that. Well I think first of all I'm I'm often astonished at how rapidly my older friends adopt new technologies how fast they get you know people in their 70s get on Facebook and get on Twitter and everything so that you know on a rather than B rather than feel that older faculty members don't adopt and

adapt to new technology I'm kind of astonished at how eagerly they sign on to it. I think they might hold back a little longer. But I think you know universities need a mixture of older and younger faculty. One reason they need older faculty is they need people who have some memory of shared governance have some memory of the academic system as it's worked over years and have some prestige in their fields but you know students also need to be identified with younger people they need to see images of themselves in the front of the classroom and younger faculty helps do that. And I think minority students need especially in their first two years to see minority faculty members in front of the classroom not necessarily in every field but they needed this part of their education so you know there is a need for a mix of young and old and higher educations workforce. Go ahead. I would just add that to me the caller speaking to the fact that we need to have performance evaluation for all of our faculty whether they are on the tenure

track off the tenure track or have tenure. Kathy I just want to point out also to part of your study that said only 70 percent of the tenure track professors these are people who are on track to get tenure said they would choose to work at their universities if they had to do it over again. That suggests there is some disconnect happening there because they're on the track to being having the preferred employment situation at least and yet they're not finding that to serve their kinds of needs that they have expressed so I you know it's it's complicated. I have to say it is complicated and we do hear a certain amount of ambivalence even from tenure track faculty those that are on the tenure track who are saying you know I'm not sure this is really what I want to do I have all sorts of concerns about it. And they were concerned about in part what they're giving up in terms of their lifestyle the quality of life that they have for an uncertain future that they that is they might not achieve tenure and then they will be after six years.

OK Allen from Dartmouth Go ahead please. Ellen Yeah go ahead. 58 year old is in the same place for 17 years and as for my perspective the tenure track system is totally broken. It doesn't work there's a whole generation of people my age who just totally passed over because it's cheaper to hire acha when you have you know 70 percent adjunct in a department where not vested in that system. Well I think that I think you're absolutely right in that sense and I'm actually can I say one more thing. Sure. I'm actually a fan of tenure but they've got to do that getting news that I mean you can have 70 percent adjunct. That's just not. Well I mean first let me just say you're absolutely right. In my in a book that I published just a couple of months ago called no university is an island. I argue

that we need to tenure long term junks. And in fact the AUP had already at that point drafted a policy saying that and we published yesterday a policy saying that long term adjunct should be given tenure people who've taught for more than six years that's the way to solve that problem in part then once they have tenure they can begin fighting for better salaries better benefits and so forth. But they need that job security to make their life tolerable and to do to limit the amount of anxiety that's connected with uncertain employment. As for the tenure track it's always been stressful no matter how good you are you will feel stress on the tenure track because you can't be absolutely certain that you will get it and that's been a fact of life ever since the tenure system was there but the stress is much greater for an adjunct who only gets a contract every semester or every year and has no idea whether they will have a job when the next semester starts. So I think you're right that

part of the system is broken and we need to fix it by giving tenure to long term adjuncts even if it's only tenure at one course a semester whatever level they teach. What do you say to that Kathy. I disagree with that I think that we should think about giving contracts to faculty not necessarily tenure that is a lifetime appointment. And I think then you know you really will get into issues of sloppiness not in terms of hiring but in terms of evaluating. So I think these faculty need to be evaluated and I would say give them a three to five year contract as opposed to a lifetime employment. Not a problem with contracts as I'd like to answer that is that the point of contract renewal unless you're in a collective bargaining unit that can really give you some group support if you're not in a collective bargaining unit the problem with the contract is that when it comes up for renewal that's a great chance to fire someone who's

outspoken. That's why contracts fundamentally don't work outside collective bargaining because there's no collective way of protecting outspoken and courageous faculty members contracts. You know the diff three years or five years you teach and then you've criticized the president you've criticized policies and you don't get your contract renewed. And so what happens to tenure track faculty because they have to toe the line for six or seven years until they get tenure and then well I know this I mean I would say anything is your point. They never thought. He never told me I never carry said he wanted the faculty to teach with courage and one of my concerns is that tenure track faculty cannot teach with courage because they don't have the protections. Well why in saying is that why I taught with courage from day one that let me go to Mike from Westford. Mike go ahead please. Hi there. This perhaps follows up a little bit on what was just being

said. What I'm really wondering given the economy that we're in in a situation where there are more people who want to be teachers than there are positions for teachers. What I'm wondering is why it is that teachers are the only profession. As important as it is and which we believe that after a few years competition should no longer be a factor and if I could just extend that a bit to say why is it also that we think that the only profession where courageous people will only be courageous If we probably promised them safety for life. Kathy I think you have a really good point and I would look at a couple of other professions like medicine and law most notably that have managed to attract people with advanced degrees and hopefully with courage and courage of their convictions and they do not have lifetime employment and less. They are federal judges but it is true. Carrie before you respond that there are any number of instances that I can think of just off the

top of my head where professors have said something this is publicly not having to do with necessarily what their institutions and really gotten quite a bit of grief about it and I don't know that they would have had a job on the other side because they if they didn't have tenure you emphasize the academic freedom that you believe comes with that that that is protective of people who are not saying what everybody else is saying. Well I think that's been you know the AUP. The first thing we published was a declaration of principles in 1015 and we made it very clear that faculty members not only need to be protected through academic freedom and tenure in terms of the things they say within their own disciplines but the comments they make in public life and increasingly because of the you know the 24/7 news cycle and the Internet and blogosphere and everything faculty comments faculty speech are distributed

to a wide audience through many different media and therefore the need for that protection has in many ways become greater because so much of what you say is now public. And I think people would lose their jobs more without tenure. I mean tenure has two levels it's a national system and it's also a local system and given institutions and in some institutions tenure remains very very strong for many years. The national system protected everyone to some degree. That is the strong standards for tenure and job security and academic freedom at our best institutions help to set a standard that protected people at much at much less quality institutions. The large number of adjuncts hired now has undermined the system as a whole. I want to say this because I'd like for you to predict where you think this is going since these 10 year numbers are going down. Evergreen State College which is a liberal arts college in Washington state rejected tenure in favor of renewable contracts in

1971 and Florida gulf course University was established without tenure in 1901. I don't know how those two schools are doing but is that the model that you see happening in the near future. I don't think I still think those kinds of institutions will be outside of the norm. And I've studied both of those intensely I think than normal to speak to continue to hire more and more full time non-tenure track faculty as well as more part time faculty. And your opinion that's a good thing or you know no value judgment that's just what's going to happen. I'm not making a value judgment on that. OK very good. Cary Nelson your prediction. Well you've mentioned I think two of the three schools whose names anyone would recognize that gave up the tenure system so given that there are 3500 colleges and universities you know there that's there's just a tiny percentage that have actually either chosen not to have tenure from the outset or to give it up. People have tried other things but for example one of the things that's been tried is

would people prefer to have higher salaries and no tenure. And by and large it was found that people didn't prefer to have higher salaries in their tenure. They preferred the predictability of the job security that comes with tenure. So what else can you in this way you're saying what do you see happening. Well that's the trend that we've faced as the one that you mentioned at the outset. That is the the exact reversal between 1975 and actually 2005 between the percentage of faculty eligible for tenure and the percent of percentage of faculty not. It's likely and you know now I think we're at about 70 percent not eligible for tenure that. That trend is probably going to creep up a little bit each year. OK only by half a percent but that I think is the most dangerous trend we're looking at because it's not going to stop. Well there you have it and this conversation is definitely not over I'm sure we'll be back to it. We've been talking tenure with Cary Nelson president of the American Association of University Professors and

professor of English at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. And with Cathy Trower a senior research associate at Harvard University's collaborative on academic careers and higher and higher education. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks luck. Today Show was engineered by Jane pink and produced by Chelsea Mirza and white knuckled me and Abby Ruzicka. This is the Calla Crossley Show a production of WGBH radio Boston NPR station or news and culture.