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I'm Cally Crossley This is the Cali crossness show the history of Wal-Mart dates back to 1950 when founder Sam Walton opened Walton's five and dime in Bentonville Arkansas. Forty years on that corner store became the big box BMA coronate the king of retail with world domination also came controversy. No longer the humble shop that sells shoelaces and licorice whips. Wal-Mart became reviled for its labor practices claiming it would drive out local merchants communities fought to keep Wal-Mart out. Now the controversy is burning up the town with mumblings that a Wal-Mart could come here. The mayor says that could spell curtains for small businesses. But in these tough times can you argue with the jobs it would bring to town not to mention affordable food and clothes. From there it's off to Berkeley where students are pairing up with Paramount Pictures to analyze and compose movie music. Up next from big box stores to Box Office scores. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Carol Vandam.

Workers at Japan's stricken nuclear power plant are trying to cool down fuel rods in several reactors. NPR's Dan Charles says they're hoping to avoid a more catastrophic release of radiation. The Tokyo Electric Power Company which operates the plant says water levels now are rising in reactor number two. That's an improvement over a day ago when the company wasn't able to inject water into that reactor. The fuel overheated leading to an explosion that damaged the reactor and released radiation. There's also been a fire at another reactor in the same complex. The Japanese government has evacuated people living within 12 miles of the plant and asked people living within 20 miles to stay indoors with the windows closed. Dozens of workers are still on duty at the plant itself and potentially exposed to high levels of radiation. Outside experts say it could have been enough radiation to seriously damage their health. Dan Charles NPR News Washington. Aside from fears of exposure to radiation Japanese search and rescue crews continue to look for more survivors. Officials confirm at least 30 300 deaths but they expect the final

toll to be far higher. Officials say at least 10000 people were killed in Miyagi state alone. Millions of Japanese people along Japan's northeast coast are trying to get through a fifth night with no shelter as temperatures hover around zero. They're also struggling to find water and food. Up to 450000 people are in temporary shelters. The most high profile advocate for nuclear power in the Obama administration says the nuclear disaster in Japan will eventually help the United States tighten regulations at its 104 plants. Energy Secretary Steven Chu told a House panel today that Americans should have full confidence that American nuclear facilities are operating safely and responsibly. But you also says the administration is committed to learning from Japan's crisis. Asian markets are plummeting today in lieu of the Japanese disaster. NPR's Louisa Lim has more. Over the past two days six hundred and twenty billion dollars have been wiped from Japan's index one point Tokyo's Nikkei index fell 16

percent. But it would cover to close down ten point five percent to the lowest level in nearly two years around. Asian markets also dropped Korea's Kospi closed down 2.4 percent while Hong Kong plummeted 2.9 percent. Taiwan's index closed down 3.3 percent reflecting fears that future shortages of crucial components from Japan will affect its electronics industry. Power companies have been badly hit due to concerns about the effects of the nuclear crisis as have airlines. Some like China have already stopped flights to Tokyo. Some analysts believe the markets have a knee jerk reaction but caution that continued slides could be a real problem with the Lim NPR News Beijing. Stocks are also down sharply on Wall Street the Dow Jones Industrial Average is down one hundred ninety five points to eleven thousand seven hundred seven. The Nasdaq's lost 45. This is NPR. But reigns King is giving his military wide ranging powers in that country. The government has declared martial law as it tries to put down an uprising by the island's Shiite Muslim majority.

Troops from neighboring Saudi Arabia have been called in to help train the country's security forces are dominated by minority Sunni Muslims. Further stirring sectarian tensions in the region in Ivory Coast witnesses say gunman shot and killed four people near a road block run by youth supporters of Lauren Boxborough in the suburb of Abidjan. One witness says he heard a burst of gunfire and screaming and later saw the four bodies the NC Double-A finals get underway today NPR's Mike Pesca has the lineup. The first of these two games features North Carolina Asheville vs. Arkansas Little Rock for the right to be double digit underdogs against number one seed Pittsburgh. But the later game which matches Clemson in the University of Alabama at Birmingham offers more hope. The winner becomes the number 12 seed against West Virginia on Thursday. These games will be televised on Tru TV the former Court TV which change its name in 2008 thus losing an obvious basketball connotation. Mike Pesca NPR News New York. A four month probe into a student's death has

concluded that the University of Notre Dame and included that the college is responsible saying the school did not maintain safe working conditions and failed to heed high wind warnings. The student was standing on a hydraulic lift filming football practice in October. The lift toppled over in 50 mile an hour wind gusts. Indiana's Department of Labor is finding the school twenty two and a half thousand dollars for five violations. The student was Declan Sullivan a junior from longer of Illinois. I'm Carol Vandam NPR News in Washington. Support for NPR comes from IBM working to help mid-sized businesses become the engines of a Smarter Planet. Learn more at IBM dot com slash engines. Good afternoon I'm Cally Crossley. This is the Calla Crossley Show. Wal-Mart the largest retailer in the world is eyeing metropolitan America as its next frontier.

While cities like Chicago and New York are rolling out the welcome mat for Wal-Mart Mayor Menino is not interested. Arguing that a Boston based Wal-Mart would be bad for small business. But in these tough times should we be passing up a chance to bring more jobs to the city. Not to mention affordable clothes and food. Joining me to talk about the pros and cons of bringing a Wal-Mart to Boston are Charles Fishman author of The Wal-Mart Effect. Russ Davis director of Massachusetts Jobs with Justice and Alderman Howard Brooklyn's from Ward 21 in Chicago who was a proponent of opening Wal-Mart stores in his district. Welcome to you all. Thanks very much. Listeners We're taking your calls this hour. We want to hear from you. Do you see a Wal-Mart in downtown Boston. Is this a cut in this economy should we be turning away jobs and affordable merchandise. Or would this be another nail in the coffin for local merchants in the Commonwealth. We're at 8 7 7 3 0 1 a 970 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70.

You can also send us a tweet or a message to our Facebook page. Charles Fishman author of The Wal-Mart Effect I'd like to start with you. A brief assessment of how you view Wal-Mart's impact on a community and then possibly a community like Boston. The Good The Bad The Ugly just briefly what happens when Wal-Mart comes to town. Good afternoon. Well that's a that's a great question of course and it's a very complicated question. Wal-Mart's been in business more than 40 years now so there's lots of examples of what happens when Wal-Mart comes to either relatively small towns. And it and it certainly has a negative impact on the immediate locally owned stores. You know you know in a traditional Kansas or Kentucky or Missouri or Texas small town with a town square and perhaps a you know four blocks of stores each around the town square Wal-Mart tends to suck retail traffic right out of that

downtown area you know. And so the local bike store in the local clothing store in the local toy store end up struggling to compete effectively in suburban communities. The impact is much more complicated. I I've lived in Orlando I've lived in Raleigh North Carolina in very dynamic high growth communities where there isn't a specific downtown where there's lots of big big box retail lots of development lots of growth. Wal-Mart is just part of the sprawl. You can criticize the sprawl in general but it's a it's the kind of place people want to shop and people are in their cars anyway going to all the other places they're going. We don't actually really know what's going to happen in an urban environment. I would I would say that in the whole country there are 4000

Wal-Marts at this moment. Sixty five percent of Americans live within five miles of a Walmart and 94 percent of Americans live within 15 miles of Wal-Mart. So most of America has Wal-Marts already. But we don't have much evidence for what happens in highly urbanized areas well settled where people aren't coming to the store by car. I would bet out of the 4000 Wal-Marts I've actually tried to understand this and I've talked to folks at Wal-Mart. There are more than one or two where much of the traffic comes some other way besides a car and so Wal-Mart is talking about going to New York. I watch and you see as well. Washington D.C. is talking about allowing Wal-Mart or Wal-Mart is talking about going to an easy I would say either of those places has welcomed them and Chicago has allowed them I'm not sure welcome is the right word the councilman will let us know whether that's the right word but we don't actually know in a real urban environment

a how Wal-Mart is going to fare because their business model typically requires selling lots of stuff even on a per person basis. And it's hard to carry off lots of stuff if you're walking or you're on the price and it requires a large footprint. And Wal-Mart has not had great success in the U.S. with smaller stores. So. There's no question Wal-Mart's goal is to sell us us stuff cheap. And so there may be an impact on the immediate businesses. I think it's important to add though that if people if Boston gets a Wal-Mart and people decide to shop there. While we may see some pain in the immediate business community you also need to account for the positive among the people who decide that's where they want to shop and save money as a result. OK so it's not a it's not just small business people that we need to worry about in the economy of course.

Got you that's Charles Fishman my guest who has written a book The Wal-Mart Effect he's laid out a couple of things that we want to unpack here. One of the first things that you said from the negative perspective because you said both positive and negative is the impact on the local area. And I want to get our listeners a chance before Russ Davis jumps into this conversation to hear a bit from a documentary a well awarded one about Wal-Mart. These are residents of Elendil New York. And this is resident Steven cool. Let's take on what Wal-Mart would mean for local business in that area. Local stores definitely put more money back into the community in terms of purchasing from the local hardware store local attorneys local restaurants local banks local printers local newspaper advertising Wal-Mart doesn't do that so the money aside for the park. I think that in a warmer world we're not big enough to survive what I call the cinder block being dropped on a chessboard. You can't have a community of this Saudi's support that kind of shock to the economic system.

That was from Wal-Mart the 2009 CNBC documentary hosted by David Faber saw Russ Davis from jobs for justice. While you're on that sure well thanks for having me. You know I think the question is really what kind of a Wal-Mart you know do we want if we have to have a law Mark. I don't think we're saying here in Boston that we don't want Wal-Mart per se. The question is Why should we have to settle for a store that has jobs with very poor benefits low wages very little security in terms of employment most of the jobs are part time. There's been a history of them exploiting women not promoting minorities into position of supervision so I guess we're really saying is that the kind of store we want or is Wal-Mart prepared to change. And you know we have higher costs here in the northeast. We need higher wages. And Wal-Mart says it wants to do things different they want to have better food for folks they want to be the new improved Wal-Mart. And we're just trying to say that OK well let's let's think about that. You know why can't we have good paying jobs with decent wages why should taxpayers

subsidize the health care of Wal-Mart workers. Why should we see our small businesses disappear so I think if Wal-Mart wants to come into the Boston area I think they need to have a dialogue with the community. OK now I want to go to Alderman Howard Brooklyn's from Ward 21 in Chicago. You invited Wal-Mart into your community you thought you needed the jobs in the area and I as Charles Fishman has indicated you thought you needed the affordable merchandise and food. Tell us why you invited Wal-Mart in it was both of those reasons that I agree with much. Actually both listen to this. But because Wal-Mart has not been in an urban area we don't know how they treat minority overall. And in a lot of these small towns where Wal-Mart first started there were very miniscule minority populations. When they when we wanted them to come in my area I looked at a couple things one trying to get other retailers to locate in many of them now and it's not as though my ward is poverty stricken.

The median income as opposed to the US. The 50 wards in the city of Chicago put one of the things that in the city of Chicago many people drive so we're going to the suburbs anyway and in my ward over the three zip code that comprised my ward people spent 80 million dollars in Wal-Mart stores in the suburbs each and every year over half a billion dollars is spent by the residents of the city of Chicago and they can only track these people based on checks and credit cards so we shoot at the numbers much higher than that. Been cited. Yes we need to yes we need the city needs the revenue because it's leakin that revenue to the suburbs. And while you're out in the suburban areas happen at Wal-Mart you'll stop at a store and you get a sandwich. You make it to dry clean and so the city is really leaking a whole bunch of revenue to us some of which were

literally right across the street. Wal-Mart wasn't welcome into the city of Chicago and kind of bought their way in. I led a lot of that because. It was so desperate in that community that was looking at 32 percent unemployment. There were no other jobs and yes people need living wages but there was no way to do this. Nobody climbing down the ladder of success to work for Wal-Mart. They were the people who were applying at retail it believed that this was the better position than they had. And as an example of that when a Wal-Mart store opened literally right across the street from the city of Chicago in a suburb called Evergreen they have more than 20000 people applied for some 300 jobs. So your point is jobs are better than no jobs. Some jobs are better than no it's been effectively here they just were not in the city proper and and so why not have them in the city. We've got the bird. Why not get some of that benefit in the tax revenue than the people working right in the foot.

All right. We are at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8 7 7 3 a one eighty nine seventy call is if you have a thought about this and we have someone who has called us Kathy from Ashley and you're an eighty nine point seven Go ahead please. Thank you for taking my call and I really like your show. Thank you. And I'm really disturbed at the idea of Wal-Mart taking advantage of these bad economic times and moving into areas where people are desperate for jobs because the jobs they offer are good jobs that like the some of your other speakers on the show already said and Ed. They don't allow their workers to organize for better benefits better wages longer hours so they can help themselves. And if you're a gay lesbian bi transgender forget it. They know they don't want you involved with them. And I just think that our country and our citizenry needs to wake up and realize that if

they shopped her eyes at those stores they're supporting practices that you know they may not like or it may turn out that somebody in their family is being discriminated against by these doors. We have to create our own value our communities and if we shop locally we create jobs locally. We stopped along the jobs go elsewhere. Thank you Kathy very much for calling in to get one of my guests to respond to you. Charles Fishman will you respond to Cathy. Well I appreciate Kathy's passion and I think she's right about a couple things I want to correct at least one thing Wal-Mart doesn't decide whether employees at a business unionized or not the employees decide there been several very aggressive unionization efforts at Wal-Mart stores around the country and by and large they have been unsuccessful Now Wal-Mart fights vigorously back Wal-Mart's business model. Who would have to be transformed

if the company were unionized. But most of the places that we shop are not unionized and so I'm not sure why. I'm not defending Wal-Mart's practices I think a lot of the criticism of Wal-Mart's labor practices has been very effective at getting Wal-Mart to change those practices and so the criticism is valuable. But most the places we shop are unionized McDonald's isn't unionized. What about Target. Target is not unionized anywhere in the nation. Some grocery stores are unionized and I don't know what the situation is in in Boston in the Boston suburbs proper grocery is one of the places where retail is in fact unionized. But. The interesting thing is when Wal-Mart opens people want to work there and people want to shop there. And so at some level without being disrespectful to Bostonians I'm not sure why in the in the seat of democracy and capitalism in Boston we should be talking about forbidding a business to do business. Now none of the guests have. But you know

if Bostonians decide they don't like Wal-Mart they won't shop there and Wal-Mart a close up that has only happened once in the entire history of Wal-Mart in the U.S. So I think it's possible to outcompete Wal-Mart. And I think it's important to criticize Wal-Mart when they fall short of what we think businesses should do. But banning them is another issue. All right well we're going to continue this conversation about whether or not Wal-Mart ought to be banned in Boston and one of the upsides and the downsides of having a Wal-Mart in Boston. We're talking about Wal-Mart and whether or not Boston should welcome one with open arms. I'm joined by Charles Fishman author of The Wal-Mart Effect. Russ Davis director of the Massachusetts Jobs with Justice and Alderman Howard Brooklyn's from Ward 21 in Chicago who was a proponent of opening Wal-Mart stores in his district and listers we want to hear from you. Cathy has called in you get into Wal-Mart to be or not to be in Boston that's the question this hour. Are you for the jobs and cheap merchandise that would bring to the city or like casinos. Is this an

unimaginative way to shore up the unemployment situation and these. Tough times 8 7 7 3 0 1 0 9 7. Back after this break. Support for WGBH comes from you and from safety insurance working with independent agents in Massachusetts and New Hampshire to provide coverage for homes autos and business and supporting PBS News Hour weekdays from 7 to 8 p.m. here on eighty nine point seven WGBH. And from Boston Lyric Opera presenting Handel's sexy farce Agrafena. March 11 through the 22nd at the city Shubert Theater with previews before each opera information available at B L O dot org. And from Susie Orman's Money Class debuting tonight at 8:00 on WGBH to this new PBS special features says he's expert advice on what actions people need to take in light of the new economy. Suzy Orman tonight at 8:00 on WGBH to. Use on the next FRESH AIR we pay tribute to the great composer Hugh Martin

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Coming up at 3 o'clock on eighty nine point seven WGBH Boston NPR station for news and culture. I'm Cally Crossley This is the Calla Crossley Show. If you're just tuning in we're talking about Wal-Mart and what it means what it would mean if it were to come to downtown Boston. I'm joined by Charles Fishman author of The Wal-Mart Effect. Russ Davis director of Massachusetts Jobs with Justice and Alderman Howard Brooke and city councilor from Ward 21 in Chicago who was a proponent of opening Wal-Mart stores in his district. Listeners we want to hear from you. What a Wal-Mart in the heart of Boston mean death to small retailers or a boon to the unemployed in need of jobs. Are you in favor of Wal-Mart. We're at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. That's 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Now before we went to break Russ Davis of Massachusetts Jobs was Justice Charles Fishman said listen you know. People give people a chance to have jobs if they want to maybe they're not the jobs that everybody would want. And then Alderman Brooklyn's

and said Some jobs are better than no jobs and before you answer I want to give people a chance to hear from a real Wal-Mart employee. This is one of the ads Wal-Mart rolls out featuring a real life employee receiving the Bronze Star. That was definitely one of my proudest moments. I graduate from West Point then I did a tour of duty in Iraq when I was transitioning from active duty. I went to a military officer hiring comrades. I was kind of like there were 12 companies that I was pretty matched but Wal-Mart turned out to be the best for me. Sam Walton was in the military. He understood the importance of developing your people. It's an honor to be in a position of leadership at Wal-Mart. I'm Captain Tracy Loy and I work at Wal-Mart. Well she said she had seven other opportunities in pick that Russ Davis what do you think. I think we just heard a Wal-Mart commercial. I mean I think you know what what the discussion about Wal-Mart is playing out in the broader discussion that we've seen in Wisconsin and other states about what kind of a country we want to have what kind of jobs you want to have and I think people have begun to wake up to the fact that unions

play a role in keeping middle class jobs here it's been very important for the African-American community historically those jobs those union jobs allowed people to send their kids to college etc. etc. So you know I think we don't want an economy that's just you know a handful of rich people and the rest of us working part time jobs no benefits. Wal-Mart hasn't as vigorously fought unionization it's fired workers and sadly that model has been adopted by other businesses they well-marked drives business in this country like no other companies so I think we have to push back and say you know it is dangerous for us where we have an economy dominated by. Companies where you workers have no voice they would be competing directly against a union I stop and shop that you know does provide good jobs and benefits for working people. There are issues in terms of communities that are underserved by grocery stores we understand that there are definitely people that need bad jobs. Even better than no jobs. But you know why should that have to be our choice Walmart is an incredibly rich company they have a lot of

money and they stand to gain a lot of money in our community so we're saying hey wait a minute Wal-Mart right. Let's think about a different model for Wal-Mart let's think about a Wal-Mart that provides a good standard you know stable jobs with benefits decent wages that you know that it's going to allow Wal-Mart workers to send their kids to college. Before I go to the caller's counselor Brooklyn's you put a little pressure on Wal-Mart even an inviting them in to make certain that there was a little bit better wage opportunity in your area. Right. That is correct. There's a community benefits agreement in place with respect to doing local hires. Not only for. To be the general contractor the store product placement within the store the other leasing opportunities within the store paying 50 cents an hour more than the minimum wage here in Illinois on which brings Wal-Mart of to light not fifty an hour if I'm not mistaken. So yes there were things that we did negotiate with respect to Wal-Mart and just one thing I agree with

with what the last speaker is saying regarding Wal-Mart but the problem is that with what the retailers who are already in the area whether the Lowe's the home depot or any of the other union stores they're open enough within the community then that providing community benefits agreement. And we're still stuck. We in the African-American community here in my area suffer from more of the unemployment. Problem that I under and find the problem and I can't get people to stop shopping at Wal Mart. Thank you very much Alderman Howard reckons that was my guess from city council from Ward 21 in Chicago rather than the Real quick because we got a bunch of the callers here real quick. Two things One is it's my understanding and the alderman can correct me if I'm wrong that Wal-Mart is taking that agreement as basically a suggestion that they're not legally bought into I think it's a very good point that the standards we have to hold all retailers to

whether it's Whole Foods coming to Jamaica Plain or Lowe's or target and so this this is about turning around what it means to be a retail worker in the United States. All right we have a lot of callers here. Let's start with Dave from Nashua New Hampshire. Go ahead please you're on eighty nine point seven. Yeah I'm not from Nashville I'm a truck driver I'm a union truck driver and I make an delivery up here in Nashua but I just wanted to comment on one of the guests that said that it's up to the workers to organize at Wal-Mart that Wal-Mart doesn't decide well you know there was an organizing drive quite a few years ago the meat cutters organize the union at one of their stores. I think it was down to Louisiana. I could be wrong but it was down starless and Russ Davis as Jack says. Oh ok it will be but but my understanding is that rather than bargain with that one small bargain to you it wasn't a lot of people. They shut down meat cutting all across the country and all of their stores. They don't play with beer. They violate the Fair Labor Standards Act where they make people work

without pay. I mean every time you open a newspaper this class action suit against this company or oh how they treat workers it's an outlaw company and they shouldn't be in Boston. You know they shouldn't be. I don't think they should be on the Planet Of The Galaxy If I had my way. All right. I don't think I think. Go. They should stay out of Boston. It's an anti-worker company. Thank you thank you very much. Dave from Nashua New Hampshire. James from Ocha Massachusetts Please go ahead please. Hi I guess I really have a bad feeling about well I guess I can shop there but only because they have no place else. And I think that the quality of their staff a lot of time they'll bring things and then over time the quality really really drop. And I've had incidences where I've bought things and I had to take them back because they broke or whatever. And I was told on no that this it to. The sight of me and they don't seem to be consistent with the quality. It

can feel worse and worse. I used to be able to buy a lot of fabric and I got rid of that and I would much rather shop at a small a store that has a good quality item then a big box place that has cheap stuff because it is cheap because the quality is cheap. But Jean and that really bothers me. But Jane to one of my guests point OK you're shopping there because there's nothing else broken says there's nothing else in his community and he they haven't is not under employment. I mean he can't worry about under-employment because there's no employment so that this would bring goods and services and jobs in a place where there's nothing else. Yeah but I think if nothing else because a lot of the stories can afford to have to go into that area or because everybody is like well we might just might as well put a Wal-Mart and it's like it's like the only other alternative. OK and I think a lot of times if you look at it and have an alternative other than Wal-Mart they could be one and I mean it's like this. I'm a small farmer too and it's always been the

lack of farmers but now we're getting back to the smallest thing which I struggle OK. There there can be a good alternative gene says Helen from Forrest Dale please go ahead. Yes I am so tired of hearing the kind comments of anti Wal-Mart. I work for Wal-Mart as a senior citizen couldn't get a job and employ self because nobody would hire me because of my age. Walmart not only welcomed me they and they were like family to me if there was a problem my family. I work for Avon many years ago they did weren't you know I was this is a company run by people individuals. Yes it makes lotsa money but there's a reason it makes lotsa money because of its quality and any of the boys say that they have somebody with not good I like to say to them because they were extremely wonderful company I worked for. Thank you thank you very much Alan. OK Russ Davis how do you respond to that.

I'd respond that there are a lot of people that work for Wal-Mart that are perfectly happy but I think we as a society we as a city we as a state need to decide if low paying jobs with you know very little benefits very little security or the kind of jobs we want when a company like Wal-Mart can afford to do better and we're asking Wal-Mart to do better for all three of my guess let me put this on the table because there is one union that does benefit when Wal-Mart comes in and that's the construction unions. Wal-Mart in preparing north to move into Boston listeners has been talking with construction unions been talking with city councillor city councillors Mike Ross as it has said that he's met with them and also donating money in the community lots of money 7 million dollars. Wal-Mart has donated to some charities here one to Somerville's Youth Build another $100000 to Greater Boston Food Bank. And that's in preparation for getting people to sit down with Wal-Mart executives and to think about what it might mean to have the corporation in the community. That seems like a good thing that's a union being

benefited Russ Davis MEST uses Jobs with Justice. And that's the money for charities here. Well there's two things there one is you know it's great that Wal-Mart is donating money we hope as a charity that there's no quid pro quo there with a business decision. Head of Wal-Mart Foundation is actually a local woman and there's a big profile of her so you know we don't. Deny that that's a good thing and we hope Wal-Mart puts more money into the community we just don't want to see those donations linked to a business decision in terms of the building trades we think stores should be built Union and we've been meeting with the building and construction workers unions as well. And you know if they can build the stores union why is the big objection to having the workers in the stores have a union. So you know it's the same thing the reason the building trades workers have unions is to have good wages and benefits and that brings up the standards for all building trades workers. Same is true for retail workers. And you know why the hypocrisy there. Charles Fishman author of The Wal-Mart Effect that's a good point Russ Davis of Massachusetts

jobs for Davis jobs for justice just brought up. How do you respond to that. I think it's a wonderful irony that they've already cut an agreement with the New York building trade unions that they're going to any stores they build in New York will be built by union labor so there. So there that's appropriate I'm not sure you'd get away with trying to build in a city like New York or Boston without using union labor. But in some ways it's a fig leaf rather than. An effort to really improve the lives construction jobs are temporary and Mr. Davis makes a great point which is if you can build it with union labor why can't you run it with union labor. I want to go back to one of the callers Jean made a really important point about the quality of what Wal-Mart sells. And I think in the larger picture the callers notwithstanding people need to remember that the only reason Wal-Mart has any power at all is that we shop there.

We buy small. Right right. Even even in small towns where Wal-Mart quote unquote wipes out small retail Wal-Mart doesn't do anything. All Wal-Mart does is turn on the lights and open the door. All of Wal-Mart's power comes from people putting stuff in the shopping cart and opening their wallets. In truth we romanticize small businesses but people decide to buy their children's clothing somewhere besides Wal-Mart. When the Wal-Mart opens and their bikes and their toys and so forth. Good point there are complicated reasons for that but one of the things that is true is that Wal-Mart does not sell the top quality goods in many instances. That's why they're inexpensive and they've taught Americans that the best price is the best deal. And we're smart enough that we should realize that sometimes the best deal costs a little more. And then you get some durability. All right. That's my guest Charles Fishman author of The Wal-Mart Effect. Shawn from Framingham you're on the callee Crossley Show. Eighty nine point seven Go ahead please. Yes good afternoon I you know and so I did notice a couple question to make sure if one is

about to call your callers ago the truck driver then you go you'd like a white wall mounted you know how the face of the earth. Well I mean it that but an awful lot of people on the unemployment rolls have a second of all you know why am i should be able to open in Boston I mean it's a matter of free market. You know let him open up. If people don't want to shop if they want to shop there. You know I don't understand what the you know the gentleman on your panel is saying that he was well my feet do better. Who is he to tell a business a private business. Well you know what they should pay their employees. I don't understand the other label laws and there are you know minimum wage laws as long as they follow the minimum wage laws. You know and I don't understand you know what the incentive is open to business if you can have somebody try to tell you well you're not doing get it now. We want you to do better and if you don't do better at we don't want you in the town. It just doesn't make any sense to me it's called free market. Let it work and it'll work.

So you're with the alderman Brooklyn's who says some jobs are better than no jobs. Oh absolutely. I mean what the unemployment rate in this country you know what I'll almost 10 percent. Well and I'm ask you says 8.3 percent at this point 8.3 percent I right you know I think they are. Open up a wall my in the heading area I don't know what the unemployment is you know rate would be an idea alone. But if I'm in a great you with 300 job getting up on time will walk by and you know and it's better than nothing at all. OK you made your point Shawn. We hear you. Thank you. Alderman Howard Brokenshire if you were talking to Mayor Menino Our mayor of Boston who has made it clear that he's not interested in Wal-Mart coming into town. He's a union guy. What would you say. Well one Wal-Mart has been also the leader in some great things $4 prescription drugs for example with Walgreens. Shortly there after the fall of our city the revenue

and without raising people's taxes if you were leaking and Hammerstein people on this massive pilgrimage out to the suburbs to spend their dollars and they've shown that they will make Wal-Mart their leader with their feet and going out there why not have them in the city. Yes. Their third thing that they can negotiate with them in Illinois. They also executed a project labor agreement where this stores are going to be building Union. They've also done other things for the community that are of benefit to the community. Wal-Mart just doesn't want to be treated any different than any other retail retailer with it. Home Depot whether that is low whether that is targeted. So if you're opening your in your city to those particular refills once refill is why not Wal-Mart. OK it's the same it's literally the same door in any door there has more buying

power them on a par has the potential to run monopod a business that this is not just Wal-Mart but Walgreens BBA right a density number refilled. Well you're quite passionate about Alderman Broca's what with moments ago Sarah from Charlestown Rhode Island Go ahead please. I I have days that I feel very much the same with the Alderman and I I don't think Wal-Mart is the problem I think this is incredibly short sighted. The problem really is and this may have already been and I jumped in the show kind of in in the middle of the problem is our value system all the way across the country. We think that what's important is how much money we're saving and how much money we're earning and that it is really just not what's important. And then as we lose sight of that we can't even. And we talk about these things whether Wal-Mart's right and Home Depots were wrong. But I will tell you that I have not set foot in a Wal-Mart in nine years. I stopped going in there the minute I stopped needing to buy diapers only because it was a coincidence. So they had this sort of awakening about

retail when when I no longer needed to buy diapers and I am not spending any more money shopping in local stores than I was spending at Wal-Mart in fact I'm spending less which is part of their strategy and part of any big retailers strategy. Gotcha. Not Wal-Mart it's our attitude the way we look at our values. And that's not going to change tomorrow. It's going to take probably another 25 years for that to happen. Gotcha. Sara thank you very much for the call. Russ Davis one moment left. Sure if you say yeah I would say well you know I agree with the last caller in the in the sense that we're beginning a conversation here about what kind of job what kind of values we have. You know we're not just picking on a ma and pa store here Wal-Mart is the biggest employer in the United States and they drive the economy to a great extent. They drive globalization they force their suppliers to go overseas and produce you know in other countries so this is really about what kind of an economy do you want what kind of jobs we want bringing in a Wal-Mart isn't going to decrease the

unemployment rate it's just going to shift where people work and where people shop so we think that Wal-Mart is big enough strong enough wealthy enough and hopefully far sighted enough to enter into dialogue with the community and and make a better Wal-Mart that you know we can all be proud to shop at but that the workers have a voice. You know what happens at a Wal-Mart in the community has a voice in what kind of jobs they have in their community. Thank you very much. I'm Kelly Crossley we've been talking about what it would mean if a Wal-Mart came to a Boston neighborhood near you I want to thank all of my guests for their insight. I've been speaking with Charles Fishman author of The Wal-Mart Effect how the world's most powerful company really works and how it's transforming the American economy. Russ Davis director of Massachusetts Jobs with Justice and Alderman Howard Brooke at the City Council from Ward 21 in Chicago who was a proponent of opening Wal-Mart stores in his district. Up next we're keeping score with the Berkeley composer project Stay with us. The.

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I mean is that for long and in a study of Australia's environment minister says it's time to give Europe's nuclear reactors a stress test. That story next time on the world. Coming up at 3:00 here on eighty nine point seven WGBH. To everyone who supports WGBH NPR and PBS Thank you. And if you've started to renew your WGBH membership in the last year and there's still time to double the impact of your gift. Hundreds of companies stand with their employees and supporting local nonprofits by offering matching that means you give your employer might to learn more at WGBH dot org slash matching gifts. If you miss John Corcoran's recent series on wind turbines in the fall you can hear them at WGBH dot org. You'll also find extended interviews the debate on the future of renewable energy and much more that's online at WGBH dot org. I'm Cally Crossley This is the Kelly Crossley Show for as long as I have the Hollywood studio

has made films it's made soundtracks legendary soundtracks Indiana Jones The Godfather and those violent shrieks for Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho. You're listening right now to the song lady's day out written by Michael book from the Paramount Pictures film The Fighter. But to help catalog all that music from almost a century of filmmaking Paramount Studios has enlisted the help of student composers from the Berklee School of Music. Joining me to talk about this partnership is Richard Davis director of the Paramount project and a professor of Composition at the Berkeley School of Music. Also with me is Berkeley student and composer Pavlo troupe Trujillo. Welcome to you both. Welcome Hi cowboy. Hi thank you. Well I think this is just such a fun project because I love movie scores and the minute I heard about your project the thing that came to mind for me was something a little piece in pop culture that I'm going to play for you right now in my listeners. In the film the holiday actor Jake Black plays a movie composer and in this scene he's at a video store giving his almost girlfriend Kate Winslet a comedic

lesson in movie composition. Have you seen this Chariots of Fire the thing cling cling cling cling cling to. It's such a great score by then goes. He took electronics course to level it was groundbreaking. I'm going to test you on this one. OK Driving Miss Daisy. It's very unexpected remember how great it was rooted in screwed leading to the. Two notes and you've got a villain. I don't know what to say about it. Totally broke. I mean that's just great it tells all of us non composers exam gets us into the head of what you guys are doing over there in this project. You've got to describe what the music is for the cataloging and you've got to know it for musicians. How do you do that Richard Davis that's two things you have to accomplish.

Well first of all the students will sit and listen to one piece of music for a film is called a cue. So they said listen to each cue several times and they're actually analyzing it on a bunch of different levels they're analyzing on an emotional level OK this is the feeling I get from this. This is scary this is horror this is tension and they're also analyzing on a musical level which is why our Berklee College of Music students come in so handy to Paramount because they have the musical skills as well as the analytical skills I mean anybody can say oh this is scary this is horrible but not everybody can say. This is a harmonic minor scale and this is using Tycho drums and this thing and that thing and so they get very specific with the cataloguing. So Paramount has a great deal here. Pablo I think there are 30 film scoring majors working on this and you know you guys don't get any money for your work. Well what you get is an opportunity to score a five minute short film from their archives that go as far back as the 20th century. And I was very impressed with your piece called cobweb hotel. And I before we hear it before we hear a

piece of it. What were the pictures. What were you looking at when you sat down to write your composition to go with this piece. Well the good thing about this at the beginning they didn't give us any instructions so we were free to do the music. We thought it would be good music. The writing is of a. So after creating my first themes they gave us feedback and they say they think that we are in the right way or not. So composing music for any nation is kind of challenging because you have to be very sync. Music has to be pretty seeing with the e-machines you have to support a lot of different emotions in him in seconds. It's not the same as scoring a drama or scoring another kind of movie.

So if it's COBB Well Kotel is it. There's a bunch of cobwebs in a hotel I don't know what that I mean what's that what are we looking at some of tell the spider spider and evil spider. Yeah actually the hotel is for Fleiss the hotel is for fly. Yes no man alive. OK so the flies think that they are going to come for a nice photo. But it is actually a trap. OK. And this fire wants to eat him. All right let let me let our listeners hear a piece of what you compose for this couple. That must be when they checked in because this sounds kind of happy to me. The spider dancing and singing at the very beginning of.

Because you know he's about to eat a lot of flies. Yeah she's very good. This is a clip from the 30s it was an animation that would have been shown as a short before a feature film. And so paramount had a whole has a whole bunch of these that the sound has become degraded and they want to contemporaries it. And so they're giving our students the opportunities to have a shot at that and have it be placed on the Paramount website at some point in the near future and they get a professional real I mean I think that's that's great I mean you really have something to go and get it. How long does it take to do this. So you take one piece and I don't know how many students are working on any one piece at a given time to help me. They're all working on different ones and I think what our students are finding is that a lot of the stuff they're doing in our program at Berkeley is more dramatic or more dramatic films. But when as soon as you get into animation you know as as as I've discovered friends of mine who do a lot of in Los Angeles you could scrape somebody off the ceiling after a day of working on a piece for animation because it requires so much precision for this kind of animation you know in the Tiny Toones Looney Tunes

style you're talking about composing it would you know what I meant was when you were cataloguing it how long does it take and how. Are there many students working on any one piece during the making of this group show. Yes. It could sail 30 hours 30 hours on one piece. No no no no. The whole theme. OK you say one piece. Yeah. Maybe we have to you have to listen to it maybe four or five times. Focus on one aspect every time so you listen to it one time and you focus on the mood of the music. And you write it down then you focus on the instrumentation in the second. You know some of the ones that you all have already started working on are films that people might remember regarding Henry the Rugrats movie like that one rules of engagement Sabrina Saturday Night Fever star trek lot of Star Trek she did Stepford Wives. So there's a variety of films there which would allow you to be very expansive in your both your description and what you're

hearing musically right. RICHARD DAVIS Right well what what's happening is that Paramount is assembling these pieces of music as a music library available to directors music editors music supervisors and anyone working on the filmmaking process that they can use for their films or for a trailer or whoever and this these these clips that they're cleaning up the Masters will be. Available as a as a library that people will purchase the the use of the music. So our students are creating keywords and other kinds of descriptions that somebody can type in. I'm looking for something that's romantic and has lush strings and they're going to get hits on those keywords that is going to be so fantastic for anybody trying to research it seems to me you know what a wonderful thing. Yeah it's a great thing and it's a great thing for our students because it's really forcing them to analyze the music in a very very specific way and for somebody who likes Pablo who English is a second language what he

what he keeps telling me is he's learned a lot of adjectives. I bet. All right well I'm going to test you really quickly right here. So you know we got to do a little something from a local guy and this is the theme from Star Wars by local boy John Williams. At the. OK so what I hear it's majestic it strong it's exciting I mean anybody can say that what would you say Pablo. I mean come on. That is what it is but they say it's. Just wonderful John John. He's really far beyond everyone else. He's he just changed that the whole the whole soundtrack thing. Well what what from a musician standpoint what one thing did you hear that you might note in your for the catalog for the you know for people to research.

Well basically I would say what you said was kind of a description of the mood of the music which is all I can do because I think about the music. But you conduct a crate. Yes. Well you know I got into it when I hear you and well you know maybe I could add something about the instrumentation but this demonstration was just full beat orchestra theme is being played by the broadcast. With the support of the history and so on so I think so that okay very good. And you Richard Davis would you weigh in on that as well. Yeah a public covered it pretty well I mean I would the only thing I would as brass and maybe you could get a specific to say hi trumpets. OK fanfare fanfare you see. Now I know what to say. Does this make you a better composer. Pablo Yeah I think so. Both parts of the of the internship

and the part of composing music particularly helping in a different way. I didn't do any nation before so it was it was kind of shy and you know very interesting for me. And this Christian but also but as I said you have to really analyze the music you have to see it. Listen to Eden and allies who really really do believe that something we composer usually don't have time to. And that's a very good exercise. So it's very vertical and it's sort of like writers you know the first thing you know is you should read other people a lot you know historian or an artist going to the museum and sketching and copying of a painting or drawing that they're really interested in. Then it becomes part of their repertoire of the composer's repertoire that they've listened to this and they can actually pull that out of their hat sometime in the future.

Now Richard Davis if the if this opportunity wasn't happening so that the student could walk away with his professional reel as well as his you know being on this website. How long would it take for a young composer like Pablo to sort of get in that position. Oh that's a tough question to to answer but you know in our program the students are really writing a lot and so they're growing and growing and growing and growing and so the question really is how much you're writing how long it will take you to get there. So of the favorites of the piece is that the students have done right now what would have been your favorite to work on Pablo or Richard what would have you seen the students enjoy most. Can you say the question any piece that you worked on that was your favorite in cataloguing. Yeah definitely. Oh yeah. JOHN WILLIAMS Oh another JOHN WILLIAMS Well what can we say one of the things that's been interesting about this is that there are some movies out there that that our college students would not normally be attracted to

like dinner with schmucks or something like this but some of the students are coming back and saying oh I got assigned to analyze the music from this movie I thought it was going to be really a dragon and they're finding Wow that music in that terrible movie was really I haven't seen dinner with friends but they'll find that a movie they didn't really like the music. When they get to listen to it without dialogue without sound effects the music is really well done. And so it's it's it's a great thing for them. Maybe you could do some public sessions to help us. We listeners pay attention because just playing that piece from The Fighter for example I saw the movie I don't remember where that piece came and it must've been so intricate to the plot. Well you know we are having a concert at Symphony Hall on April 1st of film music by Berkeley graduates for the first half of the concert and videogame music and composer Alan sylvestris will be here to conduct his music from back to the future. OK. And we're doing music from The Lord Of The Rings and Al Simpson Clawson has sent us music from The Simpsons and. Former graduate Lucas but also it's going to be a great

concert people first in Symphony Hall. Well thank you this is exciting project and congratulations to both of you. We've been talking about the art and the science of scoring films with Richard Davis a professor of film composition at the Berklee School of Music and the director of the Paramount film project and Pavlo Trujillo a student at the Berkeley School of Music who's worked with Paramount Pictures on cataloguing their films. He recently scored a short film from Paramount Hotel. We're going out on the same from Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho 1960 written by Bernard Herman where production of WGBH radio. This is the Calla Crossley Show.