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I'm Sue O'Connell. This is the Kelly Crossley Show. It's hard enough to be a police officer but imagine being a female and gay police officer. That's just one way to describe him Bissell. She joined the Boston Police Department in the mid 90s and came out shortly after. Many gay cops never came out. Which could make forging relationships on the force near impossible. Others confront homophobic attitudes by coming out only to be further alienated. It's challenges like these that make the gay officers actually an essential force within the force. This year they turned 20 and will talk to its founder and members Sergeant Pamela sold about how far the police department has come and how much farther it needs to go. From there it's slam poet Phil Kaye on the mass Poetry Festival. Up next freedom of expression from coming out to shouting out. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi saying hedge fund billionaire

Raj Rajaratnam is found guilty of all 14 counts of securities fraud and conspiracy. NPR's Jim Zarroli reports. The jury in New York will deliver the verdict after 12 days of deliberations. U.S. officials have accused Rajaratnam of insider trading. They said he had a network of friends and associates of companies and consulting firms who fed him inside information and he used it to buy and sell stocks for his hedge fund company the Galleon Group. The government used wiretaps to record Rajaratnam in the recordings form a key part of the evidence against him. A number of people who conspired with Rajaratnam later pleaded guilty and some testified against him. RAJARATNAM will be released on one hundred million dollars in bail he will be sentenced on July 29 and could face as much as 25 years in prison or more. His lawyer said he would appeal the jury's verdict. Jim Zarroli NPR News New York. The U.S. trade deficit is up 6 percent even though companies sold a record amount of cheaper goods and services overseas. That's because oil imports soared to more than

thirty nine billion dollars from February to March according to the latest numbers out of the Commerce Department. But Tom Burke of manufactures alliances again may be able to narrow in the coming months if the global economy keeps recovering if current trends continue. And if we get stronger growth in the developed world will see a diminishing of the trade deficit in goods. The trade deficit with China meanwhile has dropped to 18 billion dollars. Japan's earthquake and tsunami from this year still taking a heavy financial toll on major businesses including Toyota. NPR's Sonari Glinton reports the automakers posting a 75 percent drop in quarterly profits. Toyota produces almost 40 percent of its vehicles in Japan. That's significantly more than say Honda or Nissan which both make about a quarter of their cars in Japan. That means the production slowdown since the earthquake hit Toyota harder. Toyota sold 67000 fewer cars in the U.S. than it did

in the previous year. And Toyota's net revenue for the fiscal year stayed about the same since last. That's in contrast to its rivals such as Ford Hyundai Subaru and General Motors. All those companies saw huge sales increases and decade high profits in the same period. Sonari Glinton NPR News. The operator of the Japanese nuclear plant severely damaging this year's earthquake and tsunami has agreed to a government restructuring plan in exchange the government will help support the company to compensate affected residents. TEPCO expects to pay more than 600 million dollars an initial compensation to the nearly 80000 residents evacuated. Around the Fukushima Daiichi power plant at last check on Wall Street the Dow is down 140 points at twelve thousand six hundred nineteen. This is NPR News. The United Nations says nearly all 600 passengers on an overcrowded ship that broke off the Libyan coast have probably died. Eleanor Beardsley reports that the migrants most of them Africans working in Libya were fleeing the Libyan civil war.

The U.N. painted a horrifying picture of Friday's sinking which left migrants trapped below deck and drowning within sight of the shore of Tripoli. The UN High Commissioner for Refugees accused the Libyan government of being involved in the rising number of deaths involving subsaharan Africans who worked in Libya before the war broke out in March. International agencies say migrants report being forced on to dangerously packed ships at gunpoint by Libyan soldiers. Moammar Gadhafi has threatened that increased illegal immigration is the price European nations will pay for their support of Libyan rebels. About 15000 people have made the crossing to Europe in rickety ships run by smugglers. At least 800 people have been lost at sea in three boat sinkings before the latest ship went down. For NPR News I'm Eleanor Beardsley in Paris an Iranian lawyer representing three Americans charged with espionage says so far no trials been held and he's not sure why. The two jailed Americans Josh Fattal and Shane Bauer were unexpectedly not brought to court today. They've been in prison since July of 2009. A third American Sarah short was released in

September and she was charged in absentia. Floodwaters are flowing down the Mississippi River into the delta were residents are filling sandbags in a bid to spare their homes from further damage. Hundreds of homes have already been inundated and emergency officials in Mississippi say there will be a lot more by the time the river crests in that area. At last check on Wall Street Dow is down one hundred forty six to twelve thousand six fourteen. This is NPR. Support for NPR comes from the George Lucas Educational Foundation creator of Ed utopia a source for what works in education more and more ad ed eutopia dot org. Good afternoon I'm Sue O'Connell in for Kelly Crossley and this is the Kelly Krause Lee show well this month marks the 20th anniversary of goal and that's short for gay officers Action League. We have a chapter here in New England and it's been a long long long time for these folks to come together and have this

great event that you had this past weekend. They've been in the force for the force around the force for police officers everywhere Joining me now to talk about how far the police department has come and how far we have to go to be even more gay friendly not only to the officers but to our citizens as well. Is Preston Horton a sergeant in the MBT a transit police who founded gold in 1991 and Boston police sergeant Bamba Soltys a member of the gay officers actually of New England and a founder of the Massachusetts Association of Women in law enforcement. Last Saturday you were honored at the goal of bents. Welcome to you both how are you. Good afternoon. Good thanks for having us. And this is your first radio appearance so this is pretty exciting for all of us. Yes it is well except for those police radio broadcasts the first time I'm going out I'm going to be releasing like a rap record of you or your best calls do you think that's always a really you know have to speak with an agent once I get one. There you go. So you're both veterans of the police forces tell me a little bit about.

What it was like to join the force where you were in sort of expressing your sexual orientation will start with you Pam. All right. Well I came on the forest back in 1996 in my experience was just by my own appearance. I knew that there was no way I was going to be in the closet. So I had to make a decision early on how that was going to be impacting my career. And I chose that there was going to be a diversity training coming up in the academy. And I thought that was going to be the best time for me to choose it come out. And that's one of the things that's always difficult I think for gay people is like if you ever have the choice it's like you know it's unique experience because usually you're caught up in a situation where whether you like it or not you have to come out you're outed by by environment or experience or incidents. That's right. So I wound up deciding that you know being K is just one facet of who I am as a person and I thought that I was going

to become an excellent police officer partly in doute due to that fact. And so I decided to choose to just come out in front of all of my academy mates just under 100 people. And I wound up basically walking across in front of everybody during my experience event that they had at the academy and I was scared to death because I didn't know what was going to happen afterwards. And I'm happy to see that this was one of the experiences that did turn out in a positive way for me and I really did receive a lot of support from my colleagues. And Sergeant Preston HORTON What are some of your experiences you've been with a number of police departments. I started transits right I started with the city of North Hampton in 1988 89. I was 21 years old I got out when I was very young I was lucky. And I thought I was the only gay cop and friend of mine heard about this gay police group in New York City and I decided at 21 years old to jump on a bus and go down to New York for one of their meetings

and I couldn't believe it. There were gay police officers judges prosecutors correctional officers. And after attending a few meetings over about a year year and a half they convinced me to start a group in New England and at the same time a detective on my job had come out to me and. Another police officer locally in Western Mass and a lieutenant from our East Hartford came out to me and together they said you are going to be the one who's going to come out because we can't come out. They really didn't think they could. And we had heard horror stories around the country about police officers who weren't getting back up. We're getting support we're getting terminated and we chose that we needed to come out and that would be the best the best advantage for us as police officers to be honest with everyone about who we are. You know one of the things I think is a hallmark of at least New England police officers is that they both really don't want to hear about your personal life. But at the same time

all they do is talk about their personal life you know I think you know they'll they will often tell you from my own family you know with the last name O'Connell certainly I don't I don't have very many relatives who are in some police a law enforcement here in Boston but at the same time it's this duality of wanting to treat everyone the same unfairly and not caring if you're. You know from the from the Caribbean or if you're gay but but also needing to make that connection and I'm wondering you know Pam was there any real strong backlash that you felt. I mean I imagine just from my experience being a woman it would be different than it is for Preston but did you feel did you feel any back push push back from your colleagues. Absolutely. I mean early on when I was brand new as a rookie I was in the guard room which is the area where all the police officers go to have their meals. And there was a group of us all sitting down to have lunch and different of the fellow officers who were male were saying oh what did you wife. What did your wife

fix for you today and they were describing it. And I just said oh well look what my girlfriend made for me. And they just kind of went silent in something that's really unusual. Police officers actually pack up their lunch without finishing it and leave the room. And I was left in that room by myself just kind of gone. Wow. Oh you know and. You know it's carried through there some times some things that go on even today where people are talking about. So it's almost like you're so gay you're the big gay cop now when you're just flaunted in front of everybody. And I'm like no I'm just really normal. You know it's like I'm only talking about my life. I'm really not flaunting it this is just experiences that I have you know and they just happen to be a little bit different than your sets all. And Preston as you went through from from North Hampton and finally ending up here in the transit police you know what. What tough times did you experience or are do you experience still today.

Actually in the beginning there was a couple situations that Luckily the command staff in the city of Northampton were extremely supportive and a couple minor incidents some stuff being written on my locker was dealt with immediately in the command staff said we will not tolerate this. He's a great police officer and we're going to support him and anyone caught discriminating against him will be dealt with if not terminated. And so having that support and having other police officers who I worked well with supporting me I got through that pretty well but when I transferred to the transit police somebody had faxed an article that the guys that had written and Northampton and so folks had known about me before I even realize they knew. So it was kind of like another coming out experience for me when I came to the transit police. You know it's in the field of law enforcement much like in media there's a lot of ribbing that goes on you know I mean there's a lot of dark humor that is a necessity I think. And it doesn't necessarily always reflect the inner feelings of the person. You know we sort of Eberle around around bay windows

that you can only make fun of a group if they're in the room. Right. You know like you can't you just you have to have representation in order to feel the family kind of teasing in a good way. Right. And I'm wondering you know where is that line. You know how do you know when when your colleagues are just ribbing you and giving you some family teasing. And when do you feel like it's really you're being singled out because of your sexual orientation. Yeah I think. It's very easy to tell when it is family friendly stuff and that's one of the really great camaraderie type events that happen especially as police officers dealing you know you might be on a scene and unfortunately someone's been killed or there's some horrific accident or something and you're coping with that because it is your job. But then you know we do have that dark humor and I think that in addition to you know mass personnel firefighters and so on that that is really what keeps you sane in allows you to do your job. And for

me I know and I think it's true for many of my colleagues. Most people feel very comfortable and just talking to me and ask me like what's what's ok like can I call you a dyke you know. And just being able to allow them to feel safe enough to talk to me about anything pretty much and some things they'll say you know that crosses a line we're not talking about that more. You know let me explain to you how it is for me. But with the caveat that it's just me you know that like everybody gay people are you know different on a lot of different levels and I think just providing that kind of an opportunity to have dialogue with your colleagues is really what keeps it you know on the mark in in line so to speak so impressed one of the things we talked about before we went on the air is the camaraderie and how important it is and goal New-England is part of a larger group. Of Officer support across the country and you were also speaking to me a bit about other organizations that cast a broader net as well and it's not just law enforcement

but also firefighters and EMT. What kind of you know I tend to do this in Massachusetts. Correct me if I'm wrong but I know with in Boston with Mayor Menino support of the gay community the Boston Police Department has a great history of having liaison to the gay and lesbian community and at every step there's been education and moving forward in awareness and I imagine it's the same at the transit police as well and I know that the MTA has been very working hard to make sure that they do the right things in situations with Same-Sex issues if there's a crime or a couple together. But I'm wondering you know are is my impression that things are pretty good in Massachusetts brightly and how bad is it in other places. Well in some places it's still extremely difficult and almost dangerous for some officers. Massachusetts for sure is way ahead of the curve. There's a number of cities and towns the state police the Boston police North Hampton police Springfield police that have

liaison. But you go other places. State of Missouri for instance a gentleman was killed in the line of duty partner of 15 years raising a son together. Warren entitled to any benefits or at least that's what they were telling him. And it took gold knowing Lynn and a few other groups coming together and fighting for his rights. And so there are places all over the country where there's huge challenges for gay and lesbian police officer still. We're talking about what it means to be gay in the police force with a focus on the 20th anniversary of goal which is the gay officers Action League here in New England. We'll be back after this break I'm see we'll call in for Kelli costly on eighty nine point seven WGBH. Support for WGBH comes from. And from Boston Private Bank and

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Do you support WGBH. Not only will you be doing your part for public broadcasting you'll also unlock some great discounts with your WGBH member. From theater tickets to treadmills to tortillas from museums to massages to music less jewelry to gym shoes to jazz clubs you could use your WGBH member card all over New England to save a little more on all kinds of goods and services. Learn how much it pays to support public broadcasting online at WGBH dot org. It would be hosses warns the world he has seen couldn't use him in front of his wrongs on the deficit by law. Coming up at 3 o'clock on eighty nine point seven. WGBH. I'm Sue O'Connell in for Kelly Krause Lee this is the Kelly Crossley Show if you're just tuning in we're marking the 20th anniversary of goal which is the gay officers Action League here in New

England I'm joined by Preston Horton sergeant for the BTA transit police who founded gold back in 1991 and also Boston police sergeant Pampa SOL. She's a member of the gay officers Action League of New England as well and founder of the Massachusetts Association of Women in law enforcement. Welcome back to both of you. Thank you so we were just chatting about how things are across the country but for openly gay or closeted gay police officers and the trainings that have gone on here in Massachusetts have been have been pretty groundbreaking. As well as helpful and informative and I imagine that even with each new group of cadets that come on I mean I was shocked a couple of years ago we had an incident at bay windows I had to go down to D4 in the south end to file a report and the cadet who was taking the report could not understand why someone would call a hate threat into bay windows. I mean it because you know the gaper you just could not rat Well why would they do that you know and I was just struck by how far you education

has gone and I'm wondering what you know what happens now if you've got a generation of people coming up who the gay part is just not that big a deal at all there's no doubt about it but there's still formal training to happen. Well I think some of the important things to remind ourselves is that we can't forget our history. And certainly for police officers we have to remember that historically police officers were really offensive and against gay people although I'm sure there were closeted gay officers even that and to realize that how far we've come. The training still have to go on because discrimination does exist unfortunately and we need to have organizations like Mali and gold to really show that people can have a voice. Those organizations really provide symbols of power to would be oppressors that we're not going to tolerate it that we're for social justice and that people have backup

and the trainings also Preston go much further than just helping officers and deal with their fellow colleagues but also sort of in the the greater world. LR absolutely the perfect example is in Springfield we were doing the training at their most recent recruit class and after the training which includes same gender domestic violence and hate crimes and diversity awareness. One of the recruit officers son was bullied in the Springfield school system for being gay and she said the mother said who was one of the police recruits that if it wasn't for goals training she wouldn't realize that she could contact officer Carney who was one of the instructors and reach out to the Springfield Police Department for assistance and help. She felt she'd have been all alone. So you know there's definitely a broader aspect to the training as a whole. And I know also that the Boston Police Department generally advertises when they have you know time to join the force to look for all sorts of diversity is especially. I'm wondering Pam I mean you're you're old enough as I am to remember the day when it was hard for women to do

anything and I was I was trying to look up. I've gone to a retirement party for one of the the early women officers not long ago and they showed the sort of you know the the press from the Boston Herald or the Boston traveler I forget what it was at the time of them on the streets with their lipstick and their guns and you know it was yeah and it was just such a such a shock that these these chicks were out you know fighting crime. Right and I'm I'm just wondering you know you sort of have the double duty here as as openly gay as well as openly woman. You know I mean it's no secret now you know and it's I'm wondering if that that comes up a lot I know you've got your your affiliation group here as well. Do you see a lot of similarities or really a lot of similarities parallels along the way just because the numbers still aren't up there I mean we're talking 12 percent nationally. Police departments and we have women who are fully fledged officers. And it's one of those things where it's a strength and a

burden as is everything. But you know I've I've gone to calls where being a woman has really helped. I've gone to calls. In fact one of my dispatchers one set me on a call because the person calling her was a male didn't want to have female police officers respond. He specifically said don't send any women here. And of course at that time it was awesome there happen to be three female officers working that section of the city that day. And he sent all of us and didn't send any male officers. So sometimes it can be a good thing but. I think what it is is like with any group that's under represented we're still trying to get our foot in the door. Often there are people that don't mean to exclude you. They're not purposefully doing it but just somewhat Jordi culture rules and they don't even realize the impact of some of the things going on. And that's part of the situation where Molly the mass Association of Women in law enforcement parallels goals ideas in what we're trying

to do providing that kind of support training and networking both with members but also with the greater community. The president's efforts to repeal Don't Ask Don't Tell in the military which we hope to see move forward this year allowing gay and lesbian armed forces members to serve openly. And it's always been a shock to me in terms of how many veterans and up serving in police departments across the country and also how how alike the issue is you know I mean you are depending on each other for any number of issues. And I certainly know you know that regardless of sort of what the differences may be between police officers in a heated situation you're all police officers and that that cohesion. Absolutely works. If someone is going to mess up it's not necessarily just because they don't like you. It's right you know it's beyond that. I'm wondering Preston you know you've worked a lot also with with the returning service members who are openly gay. There's a new organization that you were talking about with me

before we went on air. You know how has it been a challenge mean I just I don't know why the armed services part took so long when many police departments across the country and fire departments and all sorts of law enforcement areas have really been ok about welcoming gay employees. Right well there's an organization called Protect and Defend which goal has teamed up with from time to time. And what we find is that everybody whether they're in the military a fire department or police department they're just looking to serve their community whether it's their community as the nation or their community as Boston or a small city or town and that you know the gay thing is so secondary. The lesbian thing is so secondary. It's about serving their community. I grew up with a brother who was a firefighter and a father who was a firefighter and all I wanted to do was become an EMT and eventually a police officer and serve my community and the whole gay thing was just so set aside so often. And what the military folks coming back

some of them severely injured having that camaraderie of an organization where other gay folks were gathering. It was just so important for them. You know Pam I've always loved the whole Boston police issue about the lack of sort of self-awareness and irony about you know the bagpipes and the Irish flag being the represent the Shamrock being the represent representation of Boston cops right and at the same time thinking you know why do you need to have your own group. You know as always love it when you know when I hang out with cops and they say well you know why do you have to have your own group I don't know maybe the Shamrock isn't big enough for all of us I know you know you know we tell them I say well why don't you put a rainbow sticker there instead. Right and let me say why do you need a shamrock. Yeah and again it provides a perspective where they go oh oh oh oh right. I once had a police officer tell me that he that the somebody speaking with a Caribbean accent was too hard they should hire people with accents I said well the no Irish people would have ever been able to work on the police force.

Go one step further being that I'm a transplant a mouse a child. Talk about the Boston accent. Let's not even go to ethnicity kind of situations. You know I'm wondering too and this is something that whenever I talk to my straight counterparts in the media or are or in general and their vision sometimes of the gay community is of this radical group you know and for good reason I mean there certainly are. Like every community the bookends of radicals and conservatives. But my experience from from the outside is that in general the BT community has been very welcoming and accepting and paid great tribute I think to the service members in the police department and in our services to really show appreciation I know when there's a group marching in pride. There's a great response from the sidelines from my perspective. You know they're going to you to all those people that are out there cheering us on because with pride

parade coming up in just pride month in general right around the corner. I have to say you know so much of the work we do as police officers is kind of you know Outta sight outta mind for most normal citizens and how wonderful it is to experience the cheering and the clapping from everybody when you're marching in the parade. You know we also have to remember that the whole gay rights movement was started because of police raiding gay bars Not York City. And if when I march or when I'm out. Large event and I have the support from the community. It means that we are doing something right regardless if it's the training or just the community awareness within police departments. So what's it like celebrating the 20th anniversary of goal I mean it's you know we're so far forward from where we were 20 years ago with same sex marriage being legal in Massachusetts with the New England states moving forward in many ways we're waiting for Rhode Island obviously in Maine to get same sex marriage back but it's a very very different world than it was founded 20 years ago.

Well 20 years ago this coming Sunday about 13 of us met in the living room and some of them were really paranoid driving around the block several times to make sure they were followed by internal affairs. And we've come a long way. We've come a long long way. And it's an absolutely amazing experience and and also I think I'm starting to get a little older 23 years as a police officer but it's amazing. It really is and it's been a really great opportunity to be able to have lived this life so far. And Pam what's on what's on the horizon. Well I think that there still is a lot of work to do because having been one of those people that was out there that first day May 17th to think about getting married to my longtime partner. I have to say I was afraid to do it in Boston so even though I think of myself as pretty much not afraid of anything I'll go search you know creepy dark buildings looking for bad guys who might be trying to harm me or citizens. And yet I was still afraid to go to

Boston City Hall and all the ramifications with that. So I think that thankfully everything turned out wonderful and you know it's but it's something to think about. There still are some raw emotions that are connected in our community and like with civil rights for many of us some of the negative things that have happened still play an important part in our lives and that's why it still is important to have organizations. My goal for the future and on the horizon would be to not have a need for going is Asians like goal or for Mali and that we're all working together as a society to just do what's right for our citizens no matter who they are. If you had if we've got some folks listening who think law enforcement might be in their future and they have concerns about any part of themselves you know any any part that doesn't disqualify them from service yet you know they feel like maybe they can't be as open honest as as as they hope they would would you have any any advice for them. Well I think everybody bring something to the table. And in law enforcement we need as much.

Team building in as much exterior differences to bring that to the table and make law enforcement brings an ability for officers to be able to work with the community so much better and I think if anyone has an inkling and they have a great background they should definitely take the exams when they come up. Absolute is it is a terrific job. Tell you I love being a police officer and there's nothing like it. But you have to be that sort of person. And I think having just the different abilities I know now with my officers they all are a little bit different. And we're such a strong team because of that and I really really appreciate the fact that I can turn to different individuals and then look around and the whole rest of the group is then looking on that person going yeah you're going to take us you know. And so there's you know one particular star. And so really if you have like to be out in really interacting with people. Police work is a terrific

job. You know I imagine that the cultural competency issues like of a changing society every year must be quite a challenge for everybody. I mean regardless of where you come from that you know I think like every other. Part of the world. You get a police force that sort of matches what or at least tries to reflect what the society is about by the time you get that society has changed again right. You know are there any challenges that you're just facing as as as police officers of just trying to understand you know other than the kids today and their crazy ideas is there. It almost seems like we're always trying to catch up whether it's technology or cultural awareness or any of the diversity issues that seem to changes as time goes on and. And that's I think one of the biggest challenges for law enforcement is always trying to stand top of that curve we're trying to keep up with the modern world if you will because a lot of police officers don't like change really. I know you find it hard to believe but I think human beings have a hard time yeah you know usually as police officers were part of that group.

So I think that's tough but I agree with trust in technology it's really the thing that's that's really out there in front of law enforcement that's difficult. Have you been able to bring I mean I don't know if you were bullied when you were kids. But is the bullying you know which is so much in the news right now certainly has a gay component to it but I think folks are finally getting the message that it's not just about gay kids getting bullied it's got far far reaching. An arm that reaches very deeply into the school systems. Have you been able to add any any perspective at all has it come up in your daily jobs. You know when you're not out busy trying to get the big catches you know the day to day stuff of talking with some of the school age kids you know in the morning in the afternoons when they're coming and going from school and like some of the popular phrases for them I was like oh it's so gay or that's so queer and they really don't even comprehend the weight of those words and stuff and so and just talking with and everything a funny incident the other day and I said you know you really shouldn't use that

term it's OK and they're like that's right not front of Sergeant B's old you know and it's like OK we almost got the message delivered. So only behind your back right were raised to the place I bet they were 10 and 11 year olds but you know it's still trying to make the way in there you know. Yeah you know it's great I mean it's amazing. It's great to see so many I mean one of the great parts about pride is to watch the law enforcement contingent that comes in. There's you know three of my favorite parts one is the number of churches that march in the Boston pride parade. The number of accountants and the number of the law enforcement you know she after all has been a a great supporter I making sure that there's a car and then right you know it's it's it's it's I know that most police officers hate parades in general except for the overtime but in general the whole idea of parades is you know unless it's at Disney. But is it is it is there or is there any excitement about doing something over and above

what you guys usually do when marching I mean are we going to get a float finally. I mean come on I'm not sure what's being planned. You know I mean you're going to say that's where we are expecting something a little bit. There is a rumor of a float but I have to say you have to remember that we are cops so someone will have to ration you know. Yeah so it's much easier if it's small so much easier to run a cruiser through a car wash and yeah. OK there you go. And that'll be the last word so I said OK. Thanks so much for joining us our congratulations on goals 20th anniversary we've been joined today by police officer Pampa soled and she's a member of goal as well as Sergeant Preston Horton who has joined us from the Transit Police. Also a founder of goal Congratulations to both of you we look forward to speaking with you again soon. We're going to talk poetry in just a second with Phil K.. You're listening to the Kelly Crossley Show right here on WGBH. Support for WGBH comes from you and from Lincoln presenting the new Lincoln

and Katie a luxury crossover with three rows of seats a refrigerated console and an available dual head rest entertainment system more at Lincoln dot com. Lincoln. It's not just luxury. It's smarter than that. And from the New England mobile book fair in Newton. For 54 years New England's independent bookstore the New England mobile book fair. Find them online at an e-book fair dot com. That's an e-book fair dot com and from American experience representing freedom writers the inspirational story of hundreds of civil rights activists who risked their lives protesting segregation in the south watch Freedom Writers Monday night at 9:00 on WGBH too. I'm Marco Werman In the developing world people with mental illness often feel marginalized especially if they can't hold down a job. In Africa you are measured by your work. Why do you bring to the table what do you bring back to the house. A program in Uganda teaches patients to work and take a productive place in the community. Our story from Uganda next time on the world. Coming up

at three point seven WGBH. It's the exclusive trip. Science and more. WGBH reporter Phillip Martin joins a new generation of Freedom Writers retracing the 161 bus journey through the Deep South. Hear his reports from the road. Mornings and afternoons. All this week here on eighty nine point seven. I'm Sue O'Connell in for Kelly Krause Lee this is the Kelly Crossley Show we're talking about poetry with my guest Phil K.. He's a spoken word poet and

co-director of project voice a national movement that inspired youth self-expression through spoken word poetry. He'll be performing and conducting a workshop with performance poet and project voice founder Sara Kay at the mass Poetry Festival which runs May 13th and the 14th in Salem. Phil Kay welcome to the Kelley Crossley Show. Thank you for having me. So what what what brought you to spoken word what part of the artistic bug got you to where you are today. You know Sue it it happened all at once. I was 17 years old. I was at a festival not too different to be honest from the Massachusetts approach festival coming up. And I saw spoken word poetry for the first time and was just absolutely had my artistic world turned upside down I'd been doing. You had some writing experience had some stage experience but but to see these two things come together and this art form that was so is this are all

while yet still being so delicate. Was it was kind of unlike anything I've seen before. And I said that's it that's what I wanted that's what I want to try doing. And then I went home and I started writing in and little by little by little little by little. You know kind of hone the craft and and then you know how Project voice started was a kind of very strange series of coincidences I got to got to college I went to Brown University just down the road from from you all and freshman orientation. I signed up to do a spoken word poetry poem. And I said oh you're Philip K. you're Sarah Kate's brother. And I have a little sister who's 13 at the time who part of her name is Sarah Kay so I thought they were talking to my sister which is definitely an odd thing to mention on your first day in college. And and. And I said I am Sergei's brother and then I kind of shoot through the line

and I am getting nervous I'm backstage and I realize that there's this other student there whose name is Sarah Kay. And I go over I say you know this is so awkward we have the same last name my name so OK. And this girl whips around grabs my shoulders says oh my gosh don't thing anymore you know I'm still OK. You grew up in Orange County. You want to see just going just rattles off all these things about my life. And we we were the only two spoken inputs in the event. Sarah had grown up in New York City 3000 miles away from me. We have this kind of odd background of having a Japanese mother and a Jewish father and Sara the Japanese mother and Jewish father so we look pretty similar. We we had done she is too. First cousin or four first cousins two sets of first cousins in my relatively small town and I knew all of them. Totally separate means and this little sister five years younger than me named Sarah came and she has a little

brother five years younger than her named Phil K. This is like the Abraham Lincoln John F. Kennedy thing with the secretaries. You know Kennedy had a secretary named Lincoln and Lincoln had a secretary named Kennedy. You know exactly if they met you know their first day of freshman year in college. Who knows what would have helped her. So now you're in twined together you're Is it right I mean I was actually was I don't. Yeah exactly. Exactly the pressure was on to be best friends and luckily it worked out. So tell me. And sometimes if you're first spoken word performance I mean it's I think that there's some great just sheer honesty that happens in poetry regardless of what type it is. You know you don't have a band. You don't have a microphone you don't have the distance that many performers can have and uses a shield. You know what. What was it like and where was it when you first got up in took what you wrote privately and read it publicly. Yeah. Terrifying is the short answer.

It was at my high school I was very lucky to go to a high school that was was very new at the time that was very kind of receptive to two big risks. We had it wasn't it was an independent school but there we had basically Quaker meetings once a week there called town meetings. There was kind of an open mike for announcements but also anybody who needed to say anything. To say so that was that was my first stage but it was you know I remember very distinctly halfway through kind of completely having an out-of-body experience and thinking like oh my gosh this is everybody that goes to my school you know and teachers that I really respected teachers that I didn't get along with all these things once everybody's there into the hangout. Well Phil we're going to go ahead we're going to play a little bit of your poem. You reading your poem teeth and then we'll come back and talk about it. This is teeth. Phil K. is what I call my Japanese

grandfather. In 1945. His Tokyo home was burned to the ground. Grampy is what I call my American grandfather in 1945. He was serving on the USS Shangri-La. Sending off American fighter pilots to burn down Japanese houses. Our jobs have not yet heal. 19 0 6 0 and. Grandpa his father is hiding in an oven. He has heard men singing on the street below hyenas. My family calls them. After drinks and song the outside townspeople come into the Jewish ghetto for a celebration beating. Moeller fireworks and eyelid explosions. Even when Grumpy's father grows up the sound of sudden song breaks his body into a sweat. Fear of joy is the darkest of captivity.

Yes that was my guest Phil K. performing his poem teeth. You feel that. That just strikes me as such a quintessential American story you know I don't I don't know how many other cultures can really bring together that many continents and that many sides to events. No that was a story that you know that's one of those poems that kind of writes itself. My dad we were having lunch one day and this kind of story just just spilled out of him kind of in passing. And I said whoa whoa whoa wait. And yeah I'm still struck by it and I think for me poetry has been. A lot of it's been training you know there is a time to cliche but it is true that I do believe that there is poetry all around in these moments of poetry happening and and part of this process has just been training myself to to see those moments and then kind of snatch them up and put them away for a later time. Can you talk a little bit about where you performed I mean I think that

the the slam poetry movement of the of the 90s really made poetry performance more accessible to many. You know I am always struck by how hard it is for folks to just sort of make the connection that you know their favorite song can be poetry you know that and that it's not just as simple as everything. I mean that there's so much out there that could be considered poetry. Where have you you performed that. You know the MTV stuff and just amazing places that you've been able to reach a broader audience. Well we've been you know Sarah and I both have been incredibly lucky. And so it's we've gotten to perform in you know a lot of colleges a lot of high schools which in some ways is is I think our favorite and that we get to have that moment hopefully that Sara and I had you know when you walk into high school a lot of times kids haven't heard the art form before. And and you know usually you get that handful of kids that you can see in their eyes that same spark

moment like oh my gosh you know in some ways when I first saw spoken word it was so such a moment of self-realization. And there's also this this complete are from the never seen for those be like given a book for the first time. You know I think oh my god this is incredible. Like is this the thing that people do that. So that's a big one I performed and run workshops in maximum security prison for a long time which I don't anymore. Some time moved out of Rhode Island but that was always I think where I found where I was the most humbled continually. And push the hardest and I think feel some of you know I think I learn the most and also kind of feel the biggest hole out of my life. I think I was speaking with Phil K. poet and co-director of project voice which is a national movement that inspires you the expression. I'm wondering also Phil. What are some of the the most common challenges that folks that you're working with either in the prison system or youth or find in

feeling like they just can't they can't express themselves they can't write poetry they can't perform poetry. Is there something that you just find everyone. Many people just feel they can't do it because. Yeah absolutely I mean the biggest one we find the biggest thing we come up against people say you know I love Gosh I love what you guys do but but I just can't do it or I have this thing but it's not poetry or like I don't know how to write about blank. And what we find is most the time when when people begin to write they feel this pressure to write about these incredibly complicated grandiose things like life or time. You know both of which are magazines full time you know that get written on every week and things that people have been dealing with for thousands of years literally. And so so we like to say you know like find something that is that is you don't have to solve all the big questions right away. Exercise we always start off with in our workshops is five things I know to be true and have everybody write exactly that five things I know

to be true and they can be about science life about politics about what they had for breakfast that morning about their family and they can be silly funny deep what we you know whatever they like. And you know without kind of expanding too much basically these these start out as the seeds of poems and these are the things that you're worried about or thinking about and these are things that you know you know saying that you know I was late for school today because my mom loves Good Morning America. I think that's a great start to a poem and that's that's a poem that you care about and only you can write til you familiar with Rebecca Black. I am familiar because she's decided what seat to sit in the front seat. And she really I mean that's a piece of you know that's untouchable art right there. Yeah it actually is I mean it has gone it immediately went from something we made fun of to something we're always singing now so I just but you know what I loved about that exercise though and I think I don't know if it was salon or slate that did it. You know so many folks are making fun of Rebecca Black and her song Friday which comes before Saturday and the next day is Sunday but then they kind of broke down some

some you know really well respected songwriters and how simple verse can be. And it's sort of just you know the environment around it makes it whether or not we're going to make fun of it or not or whether it's going to be brilliance you know and in the end absolute you know that's really what it comes down to. There's a there's a whole areas circulating on YouTube. Oh Bob Dylan cover of Rebecca Black's Friday and I don't know who it is but this person does a just a dead on impression of Dylan and having him sing it makes the song sound so deep. Right. I feel like you tear up halfway through you know which should I take you or how to know when she should be dead. So it's no so much of it is context absolutely. Now with your teaching background as well I know that I'm the parent of a child in public schools and you know there's a new way of teaching everything all the time anyway but this sort of everyday math that lets you round an estimate and writing without worrying about punctuation or spelling which drives a lot of parents crazy. I imagine

that your words in your mouth but I imagine that your urging expression at any level you know without worry of commas. Right. Absolutely I mean I think for us we're worried about that initial seed first that when students get excited about writing and what they have to say and want to write that it's much easier to layer you know the commas and the structure and the grammar after and that will the student will want that to happen. They will want that to be part of their writing package. But if they're missing that initial drive that initial fire it's hard to kind of force that stuff first. Now tell me a bit about the mass Poetry Festival which is happening on the 13th and 14th in Salem. Who should go would want to go what what's in store for them. I would you know. I'm biased but I would say anybody and everybody there's there's the the the students day of poetry on Friday which Sharon I will be performing teaching a workshop at that than that is for students only and should

be such a wonderful wonderful day of lots and by the hundreds hundreds and hundreds of high schoolers and a lot of different different poets. Then Saturday is the master's poach special which is a little more geared towards young adults and adults. But really I looked at that roster and it's such a diverse group of poets across you know age race and any possible thing you can think of. And I really genuinely believe that there is something for everybody in that group. I know I'm going to be you know teaching my workshop and doing my front and running around there is there is everybody from people that are really on the up and up that I've been watching too big you know heroes of mine Patricia Smith. Christmas Eve after which was a very close friend and mentor of Sarah's. So we're very excited not only as facilitators and performers but as audience members. I know that you know that the latest examination of rap music especially focusing around some some of the work that ludicrous is done.

It's almost as if finally rap music has lasted long enough that it gets a sort of you know academic look. And you know from a sort of just basic rhyming which of course as we talked about earlier people automatically think Beaudry has rhyme but it seems to me that rap has really expanded the syllables in the way in which words can be rhymed and expanded them and broadened them in a way that most people just didn't didn't really think possible I mean I think if you do the exercise of taking a rap song and writing and looking at the words and seeing where the rhyme lands it really has made a difference. Does that help in general whenever you're talking about poetry that people now have just really got broader broader a broader brain anyone able to listen to to the new styles. Absolutely. You know I think anything that that stretches the artform and stretches the definition of you know quote unquote legitimate art I

think is is a positive move. And there's no question that I think hip hop and spoken word. Kind of inhabit the same area I mean that's a tenuous connection because there's a lot of talk and poetry that sounds very different from hip hop but is as you said at its base you know you're up there you maybe have a mike you maybe don't and it's this very kind of intense connection with just the audience. And there's no right guitar in front of you. So absolutely and hip hop's at a very exciting time I think where it's it's gotten it's gotten so much visibility and I think it's kind of breaking out of the shell of all sounding like it's gotta just to be about bravado. And I think the industry is changing and I think that you know really we're just it comes down to is the audience is demanding more which is exciting I think for everybody artists included I think they're ready for that. I think they want that as well. Are you feeling there's enough enough poetry in writing in public schools especially on the high school level do you think that that's that's an area that's that's being

paid attention to. No. You know to be to be quite honest I think there's always more space and I think there's a little more space for poet you know one of the big things we also get about poetry is that people feel like they have to get it or that nothing applies to them you know that poetry is written by all these dead white guys. And there's so much poetry that is not in there so much poetry that is alive. Whenever we do a performance on a workshop we always have the performance first and part of that is to have the students there to see you know really it literally is a very live performance and feel that connection and it touches on these feelings that are all very neatly part of the human experience and being alive laughter desire pain melancholy and you know it's fun it should be fun and the interaction I imagine with the audience is as as visceral as it would be with any type of performance. Yes yes. If if not more. Again because you know you could you have nothing to hide behind and you're just so just blatantly bearing you know all of you

that meant that yes this is very this wrong. Well thank you Phil. K. we've been talking poetry with my guest Phil K.. He's a spoken word poet and co director of Project fois a national movement that inspires youth expression through spoken word. He'll be at the mass Poetry Festival which runs May 13th and 14th in Salem Mass poetry dot org. For More Information Project voice you can visit project dash voice dot net. This is the Kelly Crossley Show keep on top of us at WGBH dot org. I'm Sue O'Connell in for Caylee. I'll be back with you tomorrow.