Harvard Book Store; WGBH Forum Network; Walter Mosley Reads Known to Evil

Tonight, I'm very excited to welcome Walter Mosley to Cambridge to read from his new novel known to evil, the second in his Lena McGill series. Mr. Mosley is one over readers worldwide with his novels that exemplify the best qualities of mystery writing while at the same time breaching the boundaries of the genre. Time magazine called him a writer whose work transcends category, and the Boston Globe has called him a cunning storyteller concerned with the more profound mysteries of American lives. So please join me in welcoming him to the stage. Hello. How are you? I was going around today going to, I don't know, you know, to what you do, you go to radio stations and talk to people and newspapers and stuff. I, you know, everybody said, well, Ben, I've lived, you know, I lived in Austin, I lived in Newton Highlands, and I lived in Cambridge, you can for a while, you know. And then we were talking. I mean, I lived there when I lived in Vermont, and then when I lived in, you know, and

I guess I've lived in a lot of places. It's funny. It's funny. It's funny being here, you know, because Boston has changed a lot since I ran away from it in 1979. So, and I'm always happy to be in Cambridge, though, always. I mean, you know, which is not exactly Boston, I guess. But you know, it's close, it's close to people across the border all the time, you know. You need a border guard. You know, this is being recorded by WGBH, so I have to be careful on it. Be in trouble in Boston. What do I want to say? I mean, actually, I feel, you know, whenever I'm going to be recorded, I always want to say bad things, and I have to control myself. But I wanted to talk a little bit about the transition from writing by EZ Rollins, you know, I mean, I write about all kinds of things.

I always get upset the New York Times, you know, I did this play. I wrote a play based on a book called The Tempest Tales, which is about a guy who died as refuses the judgment of heaven and sent back to earth with an angel, and a dialogue ensues, a kind of based on or coming out of the simple stories of Langston Hughes. And so the New York Times decided to write an article about it, and so they said, and they started off, you know, crime novelist Walter Mosley, and I'm like, what do I have to do to just be novelist Walter Mosley? I mean, what, you know, they're trying to say space in newspapers and everything. And I was talking to another reporter from the Times about it the other day, and she's, oh yeah, I wrote that article, you know, I don't know. But anyway, she said, she asked them to change it, but they wouldn't, they wanted me to be that crime novels. But anyway, regardless, I do write crime novels, and I don't mind it. I don't mind, you know, people knowing it. I've written the EZ Rollins series, an easy Rollins series is an homage to my father and my father's generation.

You know, you have all these black men, you know, women too, but specifically me writing about black men in Los Angeles, who had no history because they're not in literature. They're a little bit in history books, but nobody reads history books, and they're not that much in the history books anyway. And these lives like deserve discussion, you know, like any life deserves discussion, you know, at least in general, so you could have a general idea of, you know, how people lived and what life was like, et cetera, you know, this mystery and it's a story, but there are other things going on. But you know, the truth is, is that after writing 11 books about EZ, I'd really written everything I could about him. And also, I'm now in the 21st century. And even though everything I wrote about EZ was true, it's a little bit anachronistic to publish today. It's not bad if the book is out there, if someone wants to buy it and read it, that's fine with me. But I kind of wanted to talk about my own life. I mean, EZ's life is an interesting thing.

And EZ's life, he knew what was going to be behind every door he opened. You know, if there's a door in Beverly Hills, he knows what's going to be behind that door and he knows how he's going to be treated. Every once in a while, he's surprised, but it's rare. And it's a surprise. This might cheat him differently. If he goes to a restaurant, yeah, everybody's going to stop him. He's going to ask him questions. Everybody's going to ask him why he's here. If he's among black people, everybody's going to have a certain notion of who they are and what they are and where they live and who their enemies are, et cetera. And the reason I wrote those books is because a lot of people outside of the community didn't know those things and didn't know the people who lived those lives. So I decided to write those stories, you know, to talk about his life. However, Leonid McGill is much more about my life. Every door he opens is different. Every place he goes, something else is happening. Some people like him, some people don't like him. Some people don't like him because he's short and middle class or working class and kind of tough because he has scarred hands. Some people don't like him because he's black.

Some people don't like him because he's a man. Some people don't like him because of his age. People like him for things that you can never tell in the recent book. One woman loves him because he has really big, strong hands. And those hands, they just, she just can't get her eyes off, you know. That's her own thing going on. But there's a world of all different kinds of possibility. It's a much more, in many ways, complex world than the world of easy wrong. Though it's a world I would rather live in. Now, so what I'm going to do is I always try to read later in a book and whenever I'm reading mysteries, it's impossible because everything is based on the beginning. And so I was reading chapters and I said, well, but nobody will understand that unless I write read this previous chapter and I go back to, oh, they want to understand that. So I ended up on chapter one again. So what I'm going to do and read short as I always do the first couple of chapters and then we can talk about things, you know, like is this indeed post-racial America or maybe like metaracial?

I'm trying to come up with a new term, you know, metaracial. Anyway, so I'll read a little bit of this book, see if you like it, not much of the mystery would be there, but that's okay. Don't you like the food, Katrina, my wife of 23 years asked? It's delicious, I said, whatever you make is always great. In the corner there sat a walnut cabinet that used to contain our first stereo record player. Now it held Katrina's cherished Blue Danube China collection, which she inherited from her favorite aunt, Barrick. On top of the chest was an old quart pickle jar, the makeshift laws for an arrangement of tiny wildflowers, every color from scarlet to cornflower blue to white, but you're frowning my beautiful Scandinavian wife said, what are you thinking about? I looked up from the filet mignon, Gargan Zola, blue cheese salad to gaze at the flowers. My thoughts were not the kind of dinner conversation one had with one's wife and family. I have a boyfriend now or a woman had told me that morning, I wanted to tell you I didn't

want you to feel like I'm hiding anything from you. Where'd you get those flowers, mom? Shelly, yeah. His name is George, or I told me, the sad empathy in the words making its way into her face. I had no reason to be jealous, or and I had been lovers over the eight months Katrina abandoned me for the investment banker, Andre Zool. I loved Laura but gave her up because when Katrina came back after Andre was indicted for fraud, I felt that she, Katrina, was my sentence for the wrong I had done in a long life of crime. I saw them at the deli and thought that they might brighten up our dinner, Katrina told her daughter. Shelly had been trying to forgive her mother for leaving me. She was a sophomore at CCNY and another man's daughter, but she didn't know it. Two of my children were farther out of wedlock, the only the eldest, sour and tacit turned to Metri, who always sat as far away from me as possible was of my blood. Do you love him?

I hadn't meant to ask Laura that. I didn't want to know the answer, nor show the involved in her ability. He's very good company, she said. And I get lonely. Well, Katrina asked something about those flowers and the echo of Laura's voice and my mind made me want to curse or maybe slam my fist down on the plate. Hey, everybody, Twill said he was standing in the doorway to the dining room, dark and slender, handsome and flawless, except for a small crescent scar on his chin. You're late, Katrina scolded my favorite. You know it, moms, the 17 year old man replied, I'm lucky to get home at all with everything I got to do. My PO got me working this after school job at the supermarket, says it'll keep me out of trouble. He's not a parole officer, I said. She's a juvenile, offender, social worker, just seeing Twill brought levity into the room. It's not a he, Twill said to see, slid into the chair next to me, Ms. Melinda Tara says that she wants me working three afternoons a week. And she's right too, I added.

You need something to occupy your mind to keep you out of trouble. It's not people like me getting trouble pops, Twill's sign. I talk so much and know so many people I can't get away with nothing somebody don't see. It's the quiet ones get into most trouble, ain't that right, Bulldog? Can't you be quiet sometimes, the hour Demetri said. Twill's pet name for his older brother was an apple. Like me, Demetri was short and big bone powerful even though he rarely exercised. His skin was not quite as dark brown as mine, but you could see me in every part of him. I wondered why he was so angry at his brother's chiding. Even though Demetri never liked me much, he loved this sibling. And he had a special bond with Twill who was so outgoing that all he had to do was sit down in a room for five minutes and a party was likely to break out. Leonid, yes Katrina, are you all right? Even though we drifted apart like the continent had long ago, Katrina could still read my moods.

We had a kind of subterranean connection that allowed my wife to see at least partly into my state of mind. That wasn't just Ora's decision to move on that bothered me. It was my life at that table. Demetri's uncharacteristic anger at his brother and even though delicate flowers sitting where I had never seen a bouquet before, there was a feeling at the back of my mind something that was be urging into consciousness like a vibrating moth pressing out from its cocoon. The phone rang and Katrina started. When I looked into her gray blue eyes, some kind of wordless knowledge seemed to pass between us. I'll get it, Shelley shouted. She hurried from the room into the hall where the cordless unit sat on its ledge. Katrina smiled at me. This made me wonder. She'd been home for nearly a year. In that time her smile had been tentative, contrite. She wanted me to know that she was there for the long run, that she was sorry for her transgressions and wanted to make our life work together. But that evening her smile was confident, even the way she sat was regal, self-assured.

Dad, it's for you. Standing up from my chair and moving into the hallway I felt as if I were displaced. Another man or maybe the same man in a similar but vastly different world. The working poor lottery winner who suddenly one day realizes that riches have turned his blood into venom. Hello? I said into the receiver, I was expecting an acquaintance or maybe a credit card company asking about some suspect charge, no one who I did business with had my phone number. The kind of business I was in couldn't be addressed by an innocent. Leonard, a man's voice said, this is Sam's strain. Why are you calling me at my home? I asked, because even though strange was a leg man for Alphonse Ronaldo, one of the secret pillars of New York's political and economic systems, I couldn't allow even him to infringe on my domestic life, such as it were. The big man called and said, it was an emergency, strange said. Sam worked for the seemingly self-appointed special assistant to the city of New York.

I say seemingly because even though Alphonse Ronaldo was definitely attached to the city hall, no one knew his job description or the extent of his power. I had done a few questionable jobs for the man before I decided to go straight. And while I was no longer engaging in criminal activities, I couldn't afford to turn him down without a hearing. What is it you want? I asked. There's a young woman named Tara Lear that he wants you to make contact with. Sam rarely, if ever, spoke Ronaldo's name. He had an internal sensor like those old time printers who replaced God with G-D in books. Why? He just wants you to speak to her and make sure that everything's all right. She told me to tell you that he would consider this a great favor. Being able to do a favor for special assistant Ronaldo was like winning six loudaries, rolled up into one. My blood might turn into high octane rocket fuel if I wasn't careful. Not for the first time I wondered if I would ever get out from under my iniquitous path.

Leonid, Sam, strange said. One of my supposed to find this young woman now, tonight, and you don't have to find her, I can tell you exactly where she is. If you know where she is, why don't you just tell him and he can go talk to her himself. This is the way he wants it. Why don't you go? I asked. He wants you, Leonid. I heard 12 say something in the dining room, but couldn't make out the words, his mother and Shelley laugh, Leonid, Sam, strange said again. Right now, immediately, you know, I'm trying to be a bugboard nowadays, Sam. He's just asking you to go speak to this little woman, to make sure that she's all right. There's nothing illegal about that. And I'm supposed to tell her that Mr. Ronaldo is concerned about her, but can't come himself? Do not mention his name or refer to him in any way. The meeting should be casual. She shouldn't have any idea that you're a detective or that you're working for someone looking out for her welfare.

Why not? You know the drill, strange said, trying to enforce his personal sense of hierarchy on me, orders come down and we do as we're told, no, I said, that's you. You do what you're told, me, I got ground rules. And what are they? First I said, I will not put this Tara's physical and mental well being at the jeopardy. Second, I will only report on her state of mind and security. I will not convey information that might make her vulnerable to you or your boss. And finally, I will not be party to making her do anything against her will or win. That's not how it works and you know it, Sam said. Then go on down to the next name on the list and don't ever call this number again. There is no other name. If you want me, you got to pay by my rules, I said, I'll have to report this conversation. Of course you do, he won't like it. I'll make a note of that.

He gave me an address on West 60th and an apartment number. I'll be staying at the Oxford Arms Club on 84th until the situation is resolved. He said, you can call me there any time, day or night, I hung up. There was no reason to continue the conversation or wish him well for that matter. I never liked the green-eyed agent of the city's special assistant. Alphonse had two conduits to the outside world. Sam was the Aaron boy, Christian Latour, who sat in a chamber outside Alphonse's office was the big man's gatekeeper and crystal ball rolled into one. I like Christian even though he had no use for me. I stood there in the hall trying to connect the past 15 minutes. The Metri's uncharacteristic barking at his brother and their mothers newfound confidence. The crude vows with its lovely flowers and of course the memory of Ora and her heartfelt concern and almost callous betrayal. I went to the closet in our bedroom looking to find one of my three identical dark blue suits. The first thing I noticed was that the clothes have been rearranged. I didn't know exactly what had been where before, but things were neater and imposed upon

with some kind of strict order. My suits were nowhere in sight. What are you doing? Katrina asked from the doorway, looking for my blue suit. I sent two of your suits to the cleaners. You haven't had them cleaned in a month. What am I supposed to wear, I said, turning to face her? Because when Katrina smiled, I remembered falling in love with her, it lasted long enough to get married and make the Metri. After that, things went sour. We never had sex in, rarely even kissed anymore. You have the ochre one, she said. Where's the one I wore home tonight? It's in the hamper. The lapels were all spotted. Where's the ochre one? I hate that suit. Then why did you buy it? You bought it for me. You tried it on. You paid the bill. I yanked the suit out of the closet. Where are you going? She asked. It's a job. I have to go interview somebody for a client. I thought you didn't take business calls on our home phone.

Yeah, I said, taking off my sweatpants. Lean it. What, Katrina? We have to talk. I continued on dressing. The last time you said that, I didn't see you for eight months, I said. We have to talk about us. Can it wait till later, or will you be gone when I get home? It's nothing like that. She said, I've noticed how distant you've been in. I want to connect with you. Yeah, sure. Let me go take care of this thing. And either we'll talk when I get back or tomorrow at the latest, OK? She smiled and kissed my cheek tenderling. She had to lean over a bit because I'm too inches shorter than she. I put on the dark yellow suit and a white dress shirt. Since I was going off with such an important client, I even sensed a burgundy tie around my neck. The man in the mirror looked to me like a bald, black-headed, fat grub that it spent the afternoon drying in the sun. I was shorter than most men.

And if you didn't see me naked, you might have thought I was portly. But my size was from bone structure and muscles developed over nearly four decades of working out in Gordo's boxing gym. Hey, dad, 12 called as I was going out the front door of our 11th floor of 11th floor of pre-war apartment. Yes, son, I said on the side. Marty Bitterman's back in town, her and her sister. Marty was a year older than 12. She and her sister had been molested by their father and I had to intervene when 12 got into his head to murder the man. I thought they had moved to their mother's family in Ireland. Turns out they weren't related, 12 said. Her father bought Marty from some pervert, her sister, too. I don't know the whole story, but they had to come home. OK, so what do you want from me? I was impatient, even with 12. Maybe the fact that his relationship to me was the same as Marty to her father cut it me a little. Marty's taking care of her sister and she needs a job. She's 18 and on her own, you know?

So you're always saying how you want a reception. I figured this would be a good time for you to have one. Marty's real organized. She tear that shit up. 12 was a born criminal, but he had a good heart. I guess we could try it out, I said. Cool. I told her to be at your office in the morning without asking me. Sure, pops. I knew you'd say, yeah? Now that's the end of the first two chapters. After this, Leonid drives, gets some taxing. It goes to a house, an apartment building that's been cordoned off by the police. He meets a policeman who doesn't like him. But he gets past him as a younger woman policeman who brings him in. She's kind of enchanted with him. A lot of people are enchanted with him, because everybody thinks he's like the center of all crime and New York. He gets there. The apartment's filled with police, and there's a woman, a dead woman on the floor to have her face shot off, and there's a black man

with a knife in his chest through his heart. There's no gun, however. And the police, they don't like Leonid, and from that moment on, he's considered somehow involved in this crime, just because he walked through the door. That's the beginning of this book. I think that if you like the last one, you'll like this one. The Leonid lives an interesting life. He lives a life that I think is a 21st century life. A lot of people want to deny it, and many people are very successful at denying it. I have to watch Fox News for you, that one out. But the truth is, is that the world is changing radically. And how we deal with that world is very, very interesting. And I believe, for me, for the last 40 years, America has been doing the wrong things, often, not always, but often doing the wrong things.

And now all of a sudden, the past couple of years, we've decided to turn around and try to start doing the right thing. And I think most people are like me, they think, boy, it's almost impossible after messing up for 40 years, after fucking up for 40 years. How do you do the right thing? It's like, yeah, well, I've been killing people for the last 40 years. Now I want to go straight. There is no going straight after you've been killing people for 40 years. Leonid has this discussion with Hush. He says, maybe we should have some justice. Turn ourselves in. He said, man, there's no justice for people like us. We just have to do as much right as we can. And it's anyway, that's my book. Any notions, thoughts, ideas, minor criticisms? Well, you know, when I found Marty in the first book, I knew she was going to end up being Leonid's receptionist. And a long time ago, I figured out that the only way, because I give him a chance, and what do you do? Because he had twillers, really.

Like I'm writing the third book now. And Twill has dropped out of high school because he's convinced Ms. Torres that she should drop his probation. And he has an online bank account in Panama, because Gordo had given him a check for $250. And for a few months, it's dated $250. Leonid logs in, and all of a sudden, it's $86,298.42. This 17-year-old kid all of a sudden has this all this money. The only way, I said, I keep on trying to figure out, how do you save? Twill, how do you save him? The only way that Leonid can do it is to hire him as his partner. So I figured that out. One day, he's going to be a detective. Now, of course, even as a detective, he said, well, dad, I think we should just kill this motherfucker here. I mean, there's no reason to turn him into the law, because he get away with that shit. We've got to do what's right, pops.

And of course, he's always right. He's always right. One of the things is I'm doing a television series with this based on the long fall with Jonathan Demi for HBO. And one of the things that Jonathan, he says, you know, it's very funny. He says, every time we read about Twill, he reminds me of my son, Brooklyn. I go, really? But I think it reminds me of who he wants his son to be. He said, be a good thing. His son is willing to kill the man who's raping his friend. I guess it would be. But yes, I have notions and glimmerings, but I don't know everything. Well, you know, the last time I was here, I weighed 100 pounds more than I do now. I decided, I figured, one of the things I thought, it's just like Lynne has a lot of problems. Lynne, it's great, because he knows he's not going to live long, so he doesn't care about Eden, you know, a pig's feet. It's OK with him, because he said, that's not going to kill me. I'm sure of that.

Is it one thing I know, is this pig's with it? He's not going to kill me. The only reason he doesn't smoke is because he knows he needs to run. And he can't smoke. That's the only reason he's not because he's a phrasinger. Yeah, but I was thinking about all the problems that I have. You know, as you get older, you have problems. People sue you, people worry about your career. The economy goes down, terrorists get tried in your city. Things like that. You think, wow, I could die. But none of those things, most of those things, either I'm taking care of them already, or there's nothing to do. But weighing 100 pounds more, well, that was honestly going to kill me. I'm like, one of my friends, Elin Harris, he goes, he dies. I mean, it's like, you know, and maybe it wasn't because of that, but he was about the size I was. And he did seem to have issues, having to do with diabetes, and heart, and that kind of stuff. And so I decided I would only eat chicken, fish, and vegetables. And I lost 100 pounds. It was wild. I said, God, it was so easy. I said, I thought it was going to be so hard. Because I can't do things.

When people start telling me to do things, I can't do them. So I just said, I'm just going to eat chicken, fish, and vegetables. That's it. And I said, I ate, and I lost 100 pounds. Yeah, I don't do that. I have a friend, Paul Coates, who runs black classic press, and he's published a couple of my books. When I finish a book, I almost always, maybe I always give it to Paul. He's telling me what you're thinking. He likes it, or he doesn't like it. But it's not what you're saying. You know, it's interesting, because art is such an unconscious thing. And what you're trying to do, and what you're doing, and where you're going, and such an unconscious thing. And so often, people's criticism either have to do with style. Some of them are arguing with me about Stephen King the other day. And they said, well, you know, he's kind of unreadable. I said, you know, because the sentence by sentence, the line, aren't good, or something like that. I don't know what he's saying.

And I was going, you know, and I said, yeah, but the thing about novels, I mean, you know, sister Kerry is really terribly written. It's a great novel, but it's terribly written. But you know, it's those ideas. It's where you're going in your heart. And you know, if somebody knows your heart, not too many people know my heart, and as far as this stuff is concerned, including myself. So no, I don't, I don't, and I'm not concerned. Very often, I wrote a book the other day, a guy told me, he says, this is not a book. And you know, and I have to say, for you, it's not a book. For you, you know, it's like I was in Brooklyn or something. But for me, it's a book, you know. And so, yeah, so that's the answer I question. A little bit, like a little bit, like I'll, you know, get, you know, reviews. I mean, like, you know, because really, you know, like I don't speak Spanish, I'm certainly not literate in Spanish. And so like, you know, and very few people would say, well, I just translated the Spanish review for you to read,

you know, so like, so like, yeah, some people tell me, you know, like, yeah, I get, you know, because I'm published in like 23 countries or something. And, and I, people seem to like it, you know, enough to publish it. But, but, you know, I don't, I don't know, really. I'm not, I'm, I'm not aware. But, you know, I'm not completely aware of what they think of my books in America. I mean, I know what people, you know, like, like, for instance, I wrote the wave of the science fiction book and I got a review. Even the characters are not even strong cardboard wrote the reviewer, you know. And they called, you know, killing Johnny Fry, my, you know, erotica book pornography. I'm like pornography, man. Pornography is when your guy is still alive and you're eating his brain with a spoon, that's pornography. Having sex, that's erotic, you know, I mean, you know. How did I start, well, you know, I didn't start writing until I was 34. I was a computer programmer for many years and I was a computer programmer then. And I was sitting there on a Saturday and I got tired of typing code so I typed onto the computer on hot sticky days

and southern Louisiana, the fire ants swarm. And I really liked that sentence. I said, hey, that's a really good sentence. I could be a novelist. You see, I'm from California. Yeah, I'm from California. And Californians have no sense of, you know, limitations, you know. The fact that I was 34 in a downtrodden programmer, you know, on 42nd Street in New York, did not deter me from thinking that I could, well, not, I could be a novelist, you know. And so I just kept writing and, you know, and that's that. All right, here, I know, I have an answer for that question. You know, a lot of questions I don't have answers for, you know. So I answer other questions, you might notice that too. But this one, I have an answer for that question. You know, like people try to like denigrate Freud, which is like amazing to me, you know, like because, you know, as people like, you know, like, you know, who do neuroscience more and more prove the things that Freud was saying, and the second analysis doesn't work for most people, this is true.

So like that, that you can denigrate to icon analysis all you want, it's fine. But like, you know, the notion of the unconscious, the notion of the instincts, the notion, I mean, all that stuff, yeah, yeah, it's true, you know, but let's go to psychoanalysis as a model, you know, it works like for like 3% of the people. So we're talking about that 3%. Second analysis, you go every day, you lie down on a couch, and you free associate, and somebody says fine, you go, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, and you're free associating. The free associating goes deeper and deeper into your unconscious. And, and you start to work things out in every once in a while, the person maybe say something to help crystallize something for you, you go on, you know, do it for years. You do, but every, you know, five days a week. Now, let's say you're going to go on vacation, you're going to Puerto Rico next week. So you go to your therapist, you say, well, listen, this Friday, can we do six hours? Because, you know, next week, I'm going to be gone for weeks. I'd like to get those, those next five hours in, you know? Well, the therapist says, are you crazy? You do it every day. Now, that's the thing. You do it every day. You write, I write every day.

I do it three hours a day, but you could do it one. If you write every day, you just sit there and you start writing on your store. And then, when you're, you know, you get to the end of it, then for the next 23 hours or 22 hours or 21 hours, that stuff is going on and you're unconscious. When you come back to it, the next morning, you're deeper into the story. You will find that you're saying things that you weren't thinking about yesterday, that you weren't thinking about during the day. And the next day, you'll be a little deeper and a little deeper and a little deeper. If you stop for a day, you start to move away. If you stop for three days, you're completely gone from it. You stay with it. That's how you, it's a very simple thing. You can do it, work in a job. You can do it in having children. You can do it in prison. You can do it anywhere. It's like, it's because, and it's a practice. It's a practice like anything else, like meditation, like anything else. You learn it. If you look at an artist, an artist is sitting there and they're, you know, and they're, and they're drawing. They're, they're, they're learning physically the form, doing it again. Archie Moore, when he fought Yvonne Dorell, Yvonne Dorell knocked him down twice

and he knocked him down hard. If I were to, I would have bet my life there, Archie Moore would have been knocked out. When he was asked, many, he won the fight. Many years later when he was asked, how did you win? He said, I used my left hand, which was very educated at the time. And when you watch the fight, it's true. He's like going like this, but his left hand is hitting this guy, you know, because he's been practicing it his whole life. It's, it's natural. It comes naturally to him. It's the same thing with writing, same thing with anything else. I do love by saying. I don't think it's a sport. You know, none of this is for when you're trying to not batter somebody into unconsciousness. Can't say, my sport is to batter somebody into unconscious. We got a lot of people in jail for people like you, man. But, but, but boxing is a really like it's a, it's a really, really challenging form. More challenging than Leonid can deal with, actually. I mean, Leonid has never been a real boxer. You know, he studied it, but he could never, he could never stay on the bicycle as it were. You know, he could never do it every day.

He had other things that he really did have to worry about, like, you know, making a living, that kind of stuff. Um, but yeah, I, I'm, I'm very interested in the, uh, in the challenge of boxing. About two months ago in a Cincinnati, one of the very good regional theaters, play House in the Park, uh, did this play. That was really great. I was like, so excited. They had Marion McClinton, who was the director. And he, he, you know, he directed August Wilson. And they had, uh, the guy who, who designed the set for the Drowsy Shop Row, and he wanted Tony for that. They had the guy who designed the lights for Lion King. Man, it was wild. You know, and it was great. And we did with it. It was like for a month with a giant theater, 600 seats. They actually, I think broke even in the end, after spending all that money out of shot. Um, you know, I like plays. You know, plays are a lot of fun. And, you know, you're, you're, you're, you're sitting next to my publisher, my, you know, my publisher's telling me that I write too many books and that I should write fewer books. And so like, so like, everyone's while I write a play. I said, well, figure this is not exactly a book. It's a play.

And I had this one some time working at it. Huh? It's not, not published yet. It's going to, with the next time we're going to do, we're going to do it in St. Louis, which we're trying to get into, in the London. That would be fun to do. They like Marion over there. And so, you know, maybe we'll do that, you know. Oh, 10 things. Yeah, you know, Katrina Vanden, who's like, really, she ties with the smartest person I've ever known. I know one other person who I think is as smartest Katrina. Well, you know, I met Katrina at a, at a, a, a nation fundraising dinner and I was complaining to her because there were all these white people there. You know, it's a very, you know, common thing where there's only white people, you know, and I'm saying, I was complaining, I said, this, I'm unhappy that there's only white people because it's the nation. It's progressive. It was started by abolitionists. How come there's only white people here, you know? And she said, well, you know, whatever she said, you know, she invited me to come in and try to help. So I, I started getting involved. I'm on the editorial board there. And so one of the problems that I have is I think that it's not, the nation is, you know, it's available to a certain intellectual class of people.

But, but intellectual just means education doesn't mean intelligence necessarily. And so what I wanted to do is to do, start doing some more pedestrian things, which would be helpful. It's like when we did the 10 things, my, my, my calm is called 10 things. We did 10, 10 ways to survive on the streets of New York crisis. Now this is very good because if you're a homeless in the streets of New York, it was helpful. But also, if, if you, if you weren't, you might say, is this what people have to deal with on the streets of New York? You know, so it was different ways to do it. Next one we're going to do is like, you know, 10, 10 ways, 10 things that'll kill you that you don't know about. You know, I mean, it's like, you know, one of the things like almost every nation in the world has done studies on cell phones and brain cancer. And America's the only one who finds it, it doesn't give it to you. You know, I mean, it's like a lot of other things. You know, so, oh, no, this is okay for you. Oh, yeah, alcohol's good for you.

You know, you know, it's like, you know, and so, you know, and to do things like that, and you know, and we try to get it, you know, syndicated, do it in other newspapers and that kind of stuff. And that way, it feels like we're inviting in a different group of people, you know, it's me and my young assistant who actually really does all the work. I mean, that's really true of, from Trinidad, it does a lot of work. And at the same time, you know, we're trying to open doors for people of color and like that. Yeah, it's asking, you know, you know, but you know, this book is me talking about it. You know, when you talk about a black man, you know, with his Scandinavian wife who's had these children who also of color from other people, you know, when you start to talk and to look at this world, you know, I was like, okay, Obama's president, but you know, you know, or you start to say, well, who is a black man? And I don't know if you've seen my book, the right mistake, but the right mistake is the third of the Socrates for it, those stories.

And one of the things that Socrates does is he actually becomes a philosopher, he gets a house, he starts bringing people in, they're sitting around a table on Thursday nights and they said, let's discuss the problems of the world. So we can't do anything, they said, no, we can't, but we could at least talk about it. And so one night, somebody talks about black people and there are all kinds of people in the room. And Socrates says, tomorrow night, I want every black person in this room to come back and we're gonna talk about something. And all the black people come back the next night and he says, well, what's a black person? And you know, every single person in the room has different answers. The really dark skinned people say, I'm the black person, everybody hates me, the really light skinned people, they say, seven miles, one guy says, well, I'm a black man, I say, no man, you a faggot, you know? Faggot can't be no black man, you know? And it goes on and on and on, you know? It's like the notion of, you know? I mean, if he has to pick me with a pig me, it's pig me nose, if he has to watch Tootsie Weather, watch Tootsie, or a Macai with a Macai, they're people who know what they are. You go to Japan and say, what's Japanese?

They can tell you. And they can say, they ain't no Chinese, they ain't no Korean. I know what is Japanese, I can smell one. They'll say to themselves, I don't know whether they can or can, I don't know, but they'll say it. And so I think the notion in America is that we've actually gone beyond race, but we don't know it. You know, we've gone beyond race, but we don't know it. We live in this meta-racial society. And we're kind of learning it. We're, I mean, really, one of the great educators has been hip hop, you know? My great educators has been hip hop, because it just crossed all the lines and crossed all the national borders and went everywhere, you know? And couldn't be stopped. And I think that it's, you know, I'm not happy or unhappy about it. I'm just like, it's something that we have to know and we have to deal with and we have to understand. And there's a great deal of resistance toward, which is why people want called post-racial. Like there's no race, you know, which is, you know, crazy. You know, it's crazy, they say it's post-racial,

but it's a, it's, I think, more accurate to say a matter of race. That we've gone beyond it. We've gone beyond it, but it's still with us. You know what I mean? We're carrying it along with us. It's, it's, here we are up above it, but it's still the base that we're suspended from. I was walking out of Street One Day in New York in West Village and there was a young white gay fellow handing out tickets for a gay rave. That's why I assume he was gay. And he said, come to the rave, man, come to the rave, come to the rave, you know, and, you know, little things said, you know, faggots, this and that and the other, you know, they were giving it out and he was all happy and a young black man took one of those things and was looking at it and was not looking at it very closely and studying it. And, and finally, hey, hey, man, man. And the white guy said, yeah, he said, tell me something. So what? Any bitches up in here? And the white guy smiled and said, no, man, just that's niggas. And the black guy smiled and he said, well, all right.

What am I supposed to say? What am I supposed to say? Am I supposed to like, you know, like, ask Jesse Jackson to come in and tell me something or Oprah or whatever, you know, it's like, you know, listen. We live in a world, you know, like language is there. We use the language, you know, the context of the language is what matters, what you're trying to say, this is a matter, if I know what a guy is going to say and I change the language, then I make the experience and valent. I can't do that, you know. But even for them, the who they are and what they are is each defined by each individual person. So, you know, so when Mao says something is one thing and when Jopi says something, it's something else. And, you know, and if Hush says that you just listen because you scared Hush, you know. Many years ago, I did this movie, Devil and Blue Dress. And, well, thank you. And so, they hired all the actors,

they hired Jennifer Beals, Jennifer Beals, who, you know, is gorgeous, she's so gorgeous. She was gorgeous, then she gorgeous today. We're still friends. She called me and she said, Walter, I would like to take you out to dinner, I'm like, damn. How can I get something out of this, you know. This is before we were friends. And so, she takes me out to dinner and we're sitting there and she says, now, she's very serious, you know. She went to Yale, she's very smart. And she goes, now, Walter, you know, I'm about to embark on this role and I find it very interesting, you know. And I want you to tell me the research you did in order to create this character so that I can follow in your footsteps and do the same research in order to create her on the screen. Now, I did no research whatsoever, not a lick. And I was just sitting there looking at her thinking, should I lie? And, you know, I would align if I could have figured a lie that, you know, she wouldn't have figured out.

You know, because I couldn't even think, I couldn't think of a book or, you know, a person or anything. You know, we, you know, I just, I'm a fiction writer. What can I tell you? I write things, you know. And I don't do research. I, I'm sorry, I'm not feel bad, you know. It's like, you know, I feel bad about that. You know, that's the same thing as that question when they ask you, you know, who your favorite writers are. You know, you guys go to like all these things with writers, right? But please ask them what writers influence them. And I promise you, every single one of them will lie to you. Every single one of them. Yes, Tim O'Brien. He's going to lie to you. You know, the reason is, is that, is that, you know, imagine young black woman. You ask her who influenced her. Well, you know, we're in a business here and there's a business of, you know, different kinds of business, you know, making money, you know, but also, you know, becoming more important, you know, working in the university, whatever. So, you know, you're going to say, well, you know, Zora Neale Hurston and Phyllis Wheatley

to get some dead ones in there. And you have to say, Tony Morrison and Alice Walker to get some that, you know, are very famous and sold a lot of books. Then you get somebody, you know, younger, you know, at which Dantakad and Zadie Smith and, you know, throw a guy in there, call some white head, just, you know, prove that you're liberal. But the truth is, it was Nancy Drew, right? Right? The truth is that when you were eight years old, because an eight year old girl, if she read Beloved, she would either kill herself or her mother, right? She said, mom, I read about you in this book and you ain't going to get me. I know you said, but no, you know, and when you're a child, your heart is wide open, it's wide open, you read things and bring them in and you believe them, they are real in your heart, in your dreams, in your mind, you just, it's amazing. And when you're an adult, you're not like that, you know, and, you know, and the books that influence you and your kid, you know, it's winning the pool, it's Superman, you know,

it's Batman, you know, it's not like, you know, something, you know, important and good and smart, you know, it's like, you know, and it's hard to be honest and to be a writer, because, you know, people have expectations of writers, which are actually their expectations of themselves, you know, and, you know, I mean, I can't help it, I'm not, I'm not criticism, it's just that I have to be really cautious not to get pulled into it, you know, because it's easy to start to say that I did this and I did that and I didn't, you know, I was like, right, I write pretty good, I can make, I can make you believe almost anything and that's like a talent, you know, but, but truth isn't, but truth isn't the thing, you know, like, you know, it's like people get a matter of precious, you know, it's the way they're, you know, isn't that terrible, the only way they can, they can show black life is this terrible black life is, I mean, this is a great film, what are you talking about, you know, this is a great acting great film, great directing, you know, and it's like, yes, there's some bad people, God, ask me last night, he says, don't you ever write about positive characters?

I say, well, I think all my characters are positive, you know, they're just a little flawed, that's all, you know, I write by hand a lot, you know, I mean, certainly when you do rewriting, when you're changing things, sometimes, you know, you know, and I'm making notes and stuff like that, but, you know, you know, the truth is, if you went to a publisher with a handwritten novel, they give it back to you, you know, maybe if you're a Tom Clancy, they take it, you know, well, I know, but you know, when you're handwriting, then you have to type it into the computer, that's like, that's like double work to me, and you know, typewriting is even worse because you make one mistake, you got to retype the whole page, it's really, it's like, you know, handwriting is better than typewriting, but, you know, typing on the computer, something I do, you know, I do a lot of stuff though, I do a lot of writing my hand, you know, I may write out a paragraph with thought or a notion or idea, make lists of things, outline things, also, always when I'm writing somewhere about the eighth or ninth draft of the novel, I read it out loud onto a tape record, and I listen to it, because very often, you know, you've gone over the novel so many times, that you think, you know, what you're reading, but what you're reading

is not really there, so, you know, yeah, so, you know, a lot of different words, but no, it doesn't, you know, you know, all the old guys, like Victor Hugo, and like these people, they were like 80 novels, a Zola wrote 118 novels, balls that wrote 183 novels, you know, I mean, by hand, dipping ink, you know, they didn't move the hand, ball pins, you know, like they were dipping, well, and then Krista Mose, you know, it's like, they wrote, and they wrote like four or five novels a year, big, thick things, and they were, they were set by hand, like people were like saying, okay, A, B, you know, so, no, it's, it's not that, you know, I would write more, but you know, my publisher won't let me. And thank you all very much for coming, thank the Bible Theater for having me here.