WGBH Radio; The Callie Crossley Show

I'm Cally Crossley This is the Calla Crossley Show. We're talking about what it takes to create good jobs. Today unemployment is close to 9 percent and with no sign of job recovery on the horizon to the unemployed to the thousands of people who turn up at every job fair a low wage job looks a lot better than no job at all. Today four million Americans are working at minimum wage or lower. Many think these jobs can be a stepping stone to something better. Not so says economist Paul Osterman in his new book good jobs America. He argues that most workers get trapped in these low paying jobs. He also says it doesn't have to be this way. If employers adopt the right policies they can turn these low wage jobs into good ones. Up next we're reworking the workforce is it time to give low wage jobs the pink slip. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi Singh. Stocks are moving

higher with investors increasingly optimistic about Europe's prospects in taking control of its debt problems. German and French leaders are calling for changes to the European Union treaty that would ensure tougher financial oversight those leaders are meeting in Paris today. At last check on Wall Street the Dow is up 154 points one point two percent to 12000 173. Nasdaq up 1.7 percent a 26 73 in the S&P 500 also up 1.7 percent it's at twelve sixty six. This time next year it could take longer to get those holiday cards to friends and family. As NPR's Kelly Adams reports the United States Postal Service wants to slow down some first class mail to save money in an attempt to avert bankruptcy. The Postal Service is asking federal regulators to approve changes that would add an extra day to some delivery times and close about two hundred fifty processing facilities. The service also wants to cut twenty eight thousand jobs by the end of next

year. Dave Williams is the vice president of network operations for USPS and says the agency has to streamline its operations to survive. Our network is simply to handle the revenues that are coming in. But more importantly way too. So what we're projecting in the future the Postal Service has lost almost 30 percent of its first class mail in the last decade and is on track to lose even more. Kimberly Adams NPR News Washington. Polls show Newt Gingrich leading his rivals for the GOP presidential nomination capitalizing on that the former House speaker is running his first television ad in Iowa which is NPR's Brian Naylor reports holds presidential caucuses in just four weeks. The Gingrich ad carries a positive message with images of a small town church wheat fields and a young woman arranging flowers in a shop. Gingrich is seated and with a smile speaks directly to the camera. Working together. We can and will rebuild the America we love. I'm Newt Gingrich.

And I approve. This spot is reminiscent of Ronald Reagan's famous Morning in America ad the Gingrich campaign has reportedly bought $250000 in cable and broadcast airtime in Iowa to run the spot. Brian Naylor NPR News Washington. Negotiations are in full swing at U.N. climate talks in South Africa to salvage the only treaty governing greenhouse gas reductions. British economist Nicholas Stern also raised one major point of contention the economics of climate change. There is no horse race between climate responsibility and development. If we fail on one we fail on the other. The conference is in its final week. At last check on Wall Street the Dow is up 151 points at twelve thousand one hundred seventy eight. This is NPR News. WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange has been given the right to fight another day. He is trying to avoid being extradited to Sweden where he's wanted for questioning on

sex crime allegations from London Larry Miller reports Britain's Supreme Court today granted Assad's permission to appeal a son's denies allegations he raped and molested two Swedish women he claims the extradition request is politically motivated and permitting Assange to take his case to the Supreme Court. Two high court judges accepted one of his objections rejecting the other. His lawyers argue the European arrest warrant is invalid because it was issued by a Swedish prosecutor and not a court. The judges say this raises a question of general public importance that the issue has ramifications beyond the assigned case. They rejected the contention that Assad should not be extradited because he's not been charged with a crime. Hasan's can now remain in Britain until the Supreme Court hears his case and that could take months. For NPR News I'm Larry Miller in London. Two more men are accusing the late Red Sox clubhouse chief of sexually abusing them in the 1990s. The accusers say they were teenage clubhouse attendants during the period

Adonal Fitzpatrick allegedly molested them. The statute of limitations has expired to file a lawsuit or see criminal charges. In 2003 two years before Fitzpatrick died the Red Sox settled a lawsuit with seven Florida men who accused Fitzpatrick of abuse. The allegations were first reported by The Boston Globe. The search continues for two plane crash victims who are missing in feared dead two other bodies have been recovered. This is NPR News. Support for NPR comes from Cabot creamery cooperative makers of naturally age Vermont cheddar cheese and offering recipes stories and programs for schools at Cabot cheese dot co-op. Good afternoon I'm Kalee Crossley. Good news from the Labor Department. Last Friday unemployment dropped to eight point six percent. Most significant drop in the last couple of years on average during the last first three months of

this year about one hundred forty three thousand new jobs are created but what kinds of jobs are being created and are they good jobs. Are they jobs that pay minimum wage or lower. Or is it in these top hard times. Can anyone afford to make that distinction is a job better than no job at all. Joining me to talk about job growth and what exactly a good job is. Paul Osterman Russ Davis and Steve Pub. Paul Auster min is Professor of Human Resources and Management at MIT Sloan School of Management. He's co-author of good jobs America making work better for everyone. Russ Davis is the executive director of Massachusetts Jobs with Justice and Steve PopTech is director of research and director of the shame the Center for better government at the Pioneer Institute. Thank you all for joining us today. Thank you. Thank you Paul I'm going to start with you since you wrote a book on this subject of good jobs. Everywhere we turn now we hear the phrase job creation job creation it's on the lips of all our politicians

certainly it's a big issue during the campaign even a year before we actually get to Election Day. But you make the point in your book that it's not enough to create jobs that they have to be a certain kind of job. Explain. Well today over 20 percent of Americans who are working adult Americans who are working full time earn wages that put them below the poverty line there's no reason for that. There is no real choice we have to make between jobs and good jobs it's a false dichotomy it's a false choice to say that any job is a good job. We have lot of evidence that you can both create jobs and create good jobs. And the consequence of these poverty jobs is really extreme. In the book we talk about for example what it does to families what it does to communities what it does the people's health. One dramatic story for example is the story of people who have type 2 diabetes which is asymptomatic for many years they know they have it

but they nore it because they have to buy food for their kids. Parents who can't go to teacher teacher conferences because they have to work their employer won't let them out. So the consequences of bad jobs are really serious. And I argue strenuously in the book that we don't have to make a choice between any kind of job and a good job. So define if you will and in these concise terms as you can what a good job is. Well there's two ways of thinking about the answer that one has to come up with a laundry list so you care about wages you care about benefits you care about workers having a voice in the workplace you care about safety and on and on and on. All that's right. But in the book to keep it simple we focus on wages. And the answer is simply it's quote a good job. If it's a wage you get you above the poverty line that's too simple. But it's easy to understand and I think it's pretty clean and powerful. OK. I want the rest of my guest to answer that so Steve what what is a good job how would you define a good job.

Well I think you know the frame that I look at it from is how important job creation is that we need to we need to be creating jobs and I think you know I think there's you know those probably would probably differ how we go about it. You know what I want to see is a robust economy that's creating a lot of jobs and I think right now even though we've seen the national number improve you know we have still tremendous number of jobs lost. You know if you look at regions outside of metro Boston you look at the duration of the people how long people are under unemployed and also the amount of underemployment that that's out there. We need to create jobs so you know we can I'm sure will spend a lot of time talking about this but the notion that you know we can put a lot of mandates in place and somehow create sort of what is our ideal job I think is one that there is definite tension between that and creating the number of jobs that we need to create to get people back to work. But just from your definition what would be without you know I'm not thinking about government mandates or what politicians say but sure how you get on I think you know the notion of a good job would be one that gives you the opportunity you know perhaps a loan or perhaps you know in concert with with

a with an extended family to provide support for your family security. How do we go about getting there I think is probably where we're going to where we're going to differ in ways during this hour. OK Russ what is a good job. Well I think a good job is something that allows somebody to raise their family in dignity and allow them to contribute to society and participate fully in our democracy and I think if somebody is working three jobs they can't take care of their kids they can't participate in in you know in their community and I think that this is not just a problem for the individual. As Paul said I think it's a problem for society when there aren't good jobs. People can't you know can't spend money they can't contribute to the to the economy and we just stagnate in perpetual recession so I think it's really at the heart of the entire political discussion is happening in this country and I think it's at the origin of the whole Occupy Wall Street movement. If I if I hear correctly from each of you though you may as

Steve has indicated disagree about how you get there. Each of you seem to be. Suggesting I support the fact that there aren't enough good jobs how are you define it at this moment. Do all of you agree there are not enough good jobs would you agree with that. Oh yeah absolutely absolutely. I mean I you know I would I would agree and I think it's you know I would I would say in the context of Massachusetts and in the context nationally in both cases you know we obviously need to create jobs. And I think we've had we've struggled with that in Massachusetts and I think Massachusetts has unfortunately been ahead of the rest of the country in terms of how long it takes us to recover from recessions and I think unfortunately this recession is now dragging you know an extremely long time nationally as recessions have in Massachusetts over at least the past few cycles. This is my guess Steve techies the director of research and director of the Jamie center for better government at the Pioneer Institute. So let's each of us each of you rather talk about where the jobs are in Massachusetts or aren't if you will because I think.

In general across the country manufacturing used to be where a person could get a good job however you all are defining it a living wage could take you or your families all of that. But now that's not manufacturing is doesn't seem to be where Massachusetts is that we are moving in different directions there are service jobs. Russ Right. There are a life sciences that's those are jobs but that's not manufacturing where where a lot of middle class people got their original boost. Yeah you know I worked at General Electric for 20 years as a machinist and that was a good job and I didn't go to college it allowed me to you know raise my two kids you know in a in a way send them to college they you know they could have a good life. I think those jobs are. You know are fewer than they were before. I'm also concerned with people trying to not only create good jobs but destroy good jobs that we already have so they're talking about getting rid of 100000 people at the post office which is a good job in the midst of a recession

and that's too complicated to get into the details there but you know that's a concern. I'm concerned about them getting rid of good jobs at Fry's and through their destroying of you know job security and benefits so I think you know I think we can see in Massachusetts where there are places like the hotel industry where the union has been able to make low wage jobs into good jobs with benefits you know with a future and I think that's really a model for what we need to do. And I think we see other people trying to you know destroy good jobs whether it's a post office or the public sector which is another place where there are good jobs. They provide vital services. Yet somehow you know we don't have enough money in this country. You know when hedge funds and billionaires are making more money than ever that's Russ Davis he's the executive director executive director of the Massachusetts Jobs was just as Paul you want to add to that. Sure. I like to distinguish between two policies one is to make bad jobs good which is something that Russ just talked about the others create more good

jobs. OK so making bad jobs good means upgrading the quality of hotel workers upgrading the quality of jobs for people who work in restaurants home health care workers and we know how to do that and we can have time to talk about how to make those jobs better creating more good jobs. I think the first thing to understand is there's just not enough demand out there. I mean that is to say what does that mean because lots of people looking for work. No no no no. OK. I got into the economic demand OK. What I mean is not enough demand for people who want to buy things. There's not enough companies wanted to hire people to produce things. And here I think Steve and I probably going to disagree I don't think it's because of regulation. And the reason I don't is because. It's very rare you're going to find a business who says gee there's customers out there but I'm turning them away because there's too much regulation I don't want to hire people you're going to find businesses that say there are no customers out there. So that's what the Obama stimulus plans about to create more purchasing to create more demand so that's one thing. Investing

in human capital investing in education investing in job training programs vigorous public policy to upgrade to skill level the workforce is another policy to create more good jobs but that requires a healthy public sector. When you're not cutting back but when you're growing. So I think the lack of final demand the lack of people who want to buy things which you can address through stimulus and then investing in human capital. That's how you create more good jobs. And then you make bad jobs and do good jobs through the kind of policies that we'll talk about. Steve. I would agree with Professor Ostrom in terms of investing in human capital. You know educational attainment it's clear that the sort of the differences in wages based on your educational attainment what degree you've got in there with whether or not you graduated from high school is spreading. So I think that's an important piece. I also wanted to put in a quick plug. In terms of we talked about manufacturing as a declining you know as a declining factor in our

economy still employs 250000 people in Massachusetts. It's gone way down I mean it's we've lost hundreds of thousands of jobs in that sector but I do think we're at an inflection point where potentially Massachusetts and the U.S. as a whole can become competitive again in manufacturing. And when you look at where the manufacturing jobs are located in this state and what type of wages manufacturing pay is those are good jobs at good wages in the locations where they are so I don't think. I don't think we can afford to ignore that I think you know from a public policy perspective the more we can do to try to save the industry we have and potentially to take advantage of opportunities I think is a very useful thing. So your point is we need more manufacturing in Massachusetts need to be attracting more manufacturing jobs or of the sort that you mentioned that are successful. You know I think the sort of the dynamics in some of the foreign markets are changing in terms of how expensive they are and how productive we are that we have the opportunity to compete. When you look at how that industry has changed over the last 20 years regardless of the technological technological

intensity of the work everyone's doing high value added work here in Massachusetts we're just as productive in manufacturing as we were 20 years ago. We're doing it with 150000 less less people we have very very productive workforce to the extent we can grow that. Those are good jobs at good wages Yeah I completely agree with that. In fact manufacturing output measured by dollars of sales is growing in this state and in a country actually is doing very well it's the number of people that we're talking about Who have you know who get hired to do that. But I don't think we should give up on manufacturing either. I think that's right. All right. That was Paul Osterman He's author of good jobs America and we're talking today about jobs this hour what makes a good job can a low wage job be a good job. What will it take to create more good jobs in the country. We're opening up the lines 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8 7 7 3 0 1. Eighty nine seventy. We really want to hear from people who are looking for work who have recently found a job. Did you have to downgrade in pay and in skills. What obstacles are you coming up against in terms of finding work.

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We can make it local issues local talk outside Plymouth officials and citizens are concerned that pilgrim is the same make and model as three reactors that experienced buyers in point seven WGBH Boston Public Radio. Welcome back to the Calla Crossley Show. If you're just joining us we're talking about jobs in America. We're looking at low wage jobs we're looking at what kinds of jobs are being created. Are they jobs that will strengthen the middle class or jobs that will barely keep a family going. I'm joined by MIT Professor Paul Osterman co-author of good jobs America making work better for everyone. Russ Davis with jobs for justice. And Steve puffed of the Pioneer Institute. You can join us at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 seventy 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. And you consider to tweet or write to our Facebook page. We want to hear from people who are looking for work or who have just landed a job. Tell us what the job market looks like from your point of view. Are

there good jobs out there. Did you have to take a pay cut. 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Paul Osterman a couple of things that stood out for me in your book that I just want to highlight. We're talking about people who are working and struggling I mean we need to put that on the table cause sometimes people hear this conversation they come away with you know people who are not working we're talking about people who have full time jobs. Absolutely I mean that is that's what's so remarkable about these numbers. Twenty percent of adults not kids I'm not talking about kids working is ossur is in a movie. If there is still such a thing as washers and movies but I'm not how about kids I'm talking about 20 percent of working adults are working below wages below the poverty line in a rich country. That's amazing. The other thing that I wanted to highlight from your book that I think is important sometimes people hear low wage jobs and whether or not they see the picture of the imagination is immigrants. Maybe people were going off the books but your book makes the case that half

of the people who are working low wage jobs are white right. But now the incidence of low wage work that you're more at risk if you're black you're more at risk if you're Latino you're more at risk if you're an immigrant. That's absolutely right. And that's another unacceptable set of facts. But it's also true that the majority of low wage workers just in numerical terms are Anglos whites. And so this is not a minority problem this is a problem for the whole country. So Steve I'm going to go to calls in just a second but Steve when we talk about the fact that and I think all of you three agree on this that the way to get from low wage job to the next level is to really have some training some education. And you said last segment that it's clear now that the gap between people who just maybe have a high school education or not. And folks who have more education is huge. So it seems incumbent that these low wage jobs in order to be good jobs as Paul has stated in his book must come with training or there must be some gateway to education in order to

move up the ladder. Yeah I absolutely agree and I think you know again education reform is probably a show unto itself. You know in terms of giving people that opportunity absolutely and also getting you know from again from a public policy perspective getting our act together. You know it's been a lot of talk over the last few weeks there's been two major reports released on the community colleges in Massachusetts to the extent that you know we don't really have sort of an organized system of workforce development of giving getting people the training they need across the entire system it sort of just a you know it's a patchwork very hit or miss difficult for people to access in a regular way. There are things that we could be doing better and we should be doing better to give people training again for those for the for the types of jobs that I think we all agree are good jobs. We did talk about that on the Kelly Crossley Show about a week ago those that report with the community colleges lots of folks going into community colleges this is a very simple description of it but sometimes what they're learning is not matching what the industry and the folks out here need. It can match and often does and these are good. This is a good option for a

lot of people. But if there is more of it more people have jobs they can't even transfer that yet they can even transfer credits frankly from one community college to another if the sort of the state community colleges don't trust each other's credits why you know why should the why should the broader public as a move toward uniformity around this Paul you want to say Yeah I think it's a double edged sword here I mean I completely agree that education and training are very very important no question about it. But we have to be careful we also have to go back to this issue of making bad jobs good improving a community colleges isn't going to where's the wages of the woman who's cleaning a hotel or serving food in a restaurant. We have to worry about making those jobs better too. So we have to kind of focus both on improving people's skills but we also have to focus on working with firms sometimes working with firms sometimes pushing for arms to improve their jobs. We don't if we only talk about education and training we're in some sense blaming the victim or blaming the person for not having skills. Sometimes that's true but it's not always true.

So Russ with jobs for justice how then do you because as Paul makes clear in his book there are always going to be people who need to chop the lettuce who need to clean the rooms who need you know there are some jobs that are going to be there because they have to get done. How do you keep those jobs or help them to be better or keep them from being worse. Yeah I mean I think it's it's education is important but it's also about rights. I mean I think you're seeing a lot of people. Who are highly educated and unemployed right now so it's not just a question if you get an education you know you can get a good job and the fact is those people are graduating with astronomical student debts which is taking a huge chunk of their income from participating in the economy I think it's also about as much as the rights of working people in this country which have been eroded over you know 20 or 30 years so you can organize and try to get you know better wages and better working conditions that's how the jobs in the auto plants which were not good jobs became good jobs that's how the jobs in the meat packing plants. You know if you have read The Jungle by Upton Sinclair They were

horrible jobs they were made into good jobs and so I think it's about moving people up through you know basically organizing and fighting for your rights in this country. I think we've seen an erosion of the rights of working people and that's the imbalance in the economy we have today. Alexander from Worcester Massachusetts go ahead please you're on the Calla Crossley Show eighty nine point seven. Hi I had a comment that question. I'm actually in the process. Hopefully obtaining a job after over a year of unemployment. I am a mature worker and have a lot of experience in my field. What I'm experiencing is you know DOLLERY in the range of 20 percent or more below what I had been making and I'm wondering if you know the typical or you know mature white collar professionals you know who you know still have plenty left to give before retirement. I certainly was surprised by that level of you know cut and

salaries being offered I'm wondering if that's typical in this market. Paul Osterman I like that I don't want to give you personal advice about bargaining for your job wages but I will say that there's been a lot of research on what happens to well what the jargon is dislocated workers people who lose their jobs because of a layoff and then have to find a new job. And the average hit that that person takes is that is in fact about a 20 percent hit. If they're lucky enough to find a new job. So your experience is typical. Again I'm not talking about I'm just not in a position to give you personal advice obviously but but but. But what you're experiencing is is typical for people in your position. OK thank you I also think the caller brings up an important point which is the discrimination against older workers in this economy I think there are definitely not all but many employers who won't hire an older worker because they they feel like their insurance costs are going to be higher or their you know their quote unquote less productive so I think it's a real problem we have you know getting rid of

people that have you know worked their whole lives but still have many more years at the same time. We're cutting you know pensions and we're raising the Social Security age so it's like there are millions of millions of older workers who are trapped between not having a job and not being able to retire. I also want to put on the table the because we've done the stories here on the show. And it seems crazy but it's it's true that there are employers that will not hire people who are unemployed. You have to be have you have to have a job. I mean it's a requirement now for many jobs you can't be unemployed even though you may have great skills background opportunity enthusiasm all of that which I just still find mind boggling but it is happening. And they can do that because this economy is so tight. Rachel from Attleboro Go ahead please you're on the Kelly Crossley Show eighty nine point seven. I was calling just about on that I graduated 0 0 0 0 and a few months working but I did not know what it was

and they meant everything. Could not find any job any entry level job and then I applied for end up going to people with PVA experience and any job that were our only job. I was being told I was overqualified for them by now and that I did all that and that's often more than making up after dogs. And while it's fine for now it's other problems having it that it's not building experience for me in any way. That leaves something I want to do I'm not interested in going to bed in their medicine or anything like that but that's kind of where I'm going. Are you finding that your other classmates from Smith College are having the same experience are our different ones able to get work more easily. Very widely known people are having a very similar experiences and they enforcing our laws that aren't leaving something

in the future for them and I'm very fortunate. I didn't come out of a lot of that. But it is well you know if it doesn't go as your question I have coming out of school with over a hundred thousand dollars that are going to be a big problem paying back those a little well. Rachel thank you for calling to get some I guess to weigh in on Steve so here we have somebody who's not only has good education but really good edge and from an excellent school. And we've heard these stories from a lot of students. You know Boston and our surrounding areas full of great schools. What do you say to Rachel. Well I mean obviously it's a you know it's a difficult situation and you know it's a it's a it's a tough spot to be in Personally I think you know for us looking at it in the aggregate the the the problem here is job creation. We're not creating jobs where in this is the longest recession post-World War 2 recession in terms of trying to just get back to where we were pre recession in terms of creating jobs and we're still far far away from getting there that this

recession has gone on longer the folks who are unemployed are unemployed longer and also the spread between people who are sort of formally unemployed and those who are underemployed you know who want to be working more. That spread has gotten wider in this recession and you know sort of the quandary is what do we do. What do we do to create more jobs and I guess that you know that would help you know that would help the caller. You know maybe not directly but people like the caller obviously the more jobs we create So I think you know I think that's the way you have to go at it. There's some obvious things that you think that could be happening right now. I mean so often we have these discussions like in five years we could be doing blah blah blah. But right now what could look at create some jobs. And we've talked about some of the obstacles to that. I mean I you know from my point of view I would I would take a look at a lot of the targeted stuff we're doing you know sort of we were focused on a very tight industry niches and we're like I mean example you know life sciences clean tech. We're going to get into the casino business shortly I think.

Do you think that's going to create jobs I want to get off track but let me just ask you. It will create jobs I don't think it will create it sort of in the volume and I worry that it distracts attention from other more necessary into its reading activities then we sort of get focused on these niches when we need to be creating jobs in the in the in the hundreds of thousands to bring people back. So I think sort of moving from a very targeted approach to a much broader approach also trying to do some trying to do some better things in terms of workforce development. We talked about previously with the community colleges is the way you do it. That said you know I don't think Massachusetts turns around the global macro economic climate much as you know wish that were possible. I don't know that that's you know that's not within our grasp clearly. So I mean I really think the tragedy here. I'm sorry. I think the tragedy here is is the kind of policies that Steve talking about I think are sensible and important. But we need jobs created quickly and we actually know how to do it. It's not an intellectual problem it's not a technical problem it's a political problem.

There's no reason technically why the federal government can't provide money to the states and localities so they're not laying off teachers and police and firemen. That's creating jobs. There's no reason why we can't hire people directly to do home health care take care of your grandmother to take care of my grandmother that's creating jobs. There's lots of ways we know how to create jobs. It's a political obstacle it's a political barrier that's preventing us from doing this it's not it's not rocket science. Well with the teachers and the policeman would that be retaining jobs as opposed to your creating. Sure. But but then you're not then you're not pushing people into the into the unemployment pool. And so you're making it easier for Rachel to find a job because she's competing with fewer people. Plus those people when they're working instead of being unemployed they have more spending money so aggregate demand goes up and that creates jobs. We know what to do but we can't get past the politics that's preventing us from doing it.

Isn't it also true though Russ that you know there are private employers who. Possibly at this moment they've they've had they've taken a hit and they're been waiting to see what's happening. But at this moment could hire. But are not confident to hire in this economy. Well I think that's exactly the problem there are corporations sitting on literally hundreds of billions of dollars who are not investing are not hiring people and I personally believe that you know this economy is a rigged game. It's been rigged for the benefit of those people running those corporations the CEOs who are making hundreds of times the average worker's salary. And frankly I think we should tax some of that money and use that money to create jobs for the things that Paul just described that we need as a country that will in turn just like it did in the 30s. It's not rocket science. You know get the economy going again and I think you know people like Rachel can find a job that will use you know her talents I think. I think it's unfair that student loan can't be discharged in bankruptcy. When you have the big banks you know getting out from under their obligations and getting trillions of dollars from the federal government in support so I just think we have to have a fundamentally new

kind of economy in this country that is you know more fair and not based on you know people making billions of dollars when other people are working you know minimum wage with no benefits. Jan from Sturbridge Go ahead please you're on the Kelly Crossley Show. Eighty nine point seven right. No only I have a question. What current health. Well we met play I'd like to hear this. For a mere Yes but encouraging self employment for the few people who express their care and earn money at the same time. OK I thank you very much Stan for the call Paul. Well you know I teach at a business school and when business school people talk about self-employment they tend to talk about entrepreneurship. And there's no question that entrepreneurs and entrepreneurship is an important part of the source of job creation that through small business loans through technical assistance to budding entrepreneurs we

can create jobs now whether we can create use that as a pathway to create jobs in the tens of millions which is literally what we need to create. I'm not clear that that's true but I certainly support programs aimed at helping entrepreneurs I think that's important. And Steve can describe this in greater detail but if you look at the Massachusetts economy a lot of our. Companies of which we're the most proud. Started off a small entrepreneurial companies see before you speak. ROSS Not everybody is equipped with entrepreneurial skills however right. I mean yeah with groups. I'm just asking that question. I mean I think the problem is yeah there are definitely industries or professions where that makes a lot of sense. But I think the model that you know everybody becomes their own business person is is not one that's realistic. And you know we have a growing instance in this state of people being forced to work as quote unquote independent contractors even when they're actually employees. And so they don't

get unemployment insurance they don't get Social Security they don't get any of the benefits that real employees do so I think that there's certainly anyone who wants to start a business should and that creates you know a lot of wealth and contributes to you know the economy at some level. If they're small businesses but I think we also see the danger of pushing people into you know what are really you know fake self employment schemes that really exploit the workers themselves was to levels of there so we're talking about people who call it was talking about people who want to go out and do that. And you're also speaking about people who've been forced into kind of a foe entrepreneurial situation so just so we're clear about that. Now Steve what do you where you want entrepreneurial single person self-employment. You know I would I would say that that's where our economy is headed was headed before this recession. You know there's a huge increase in the number of single person firms of the last 20 years it's gone from about 40000 to 100000. Average firm size in Massachusetts has gone from 16 to 9. So you have lots of

people. And again you know I don't have the empirical data to say how many of them are sort of forced into it and how many of them decided to go out and hang out their own shingle but you know we're seeing increasingly an economy with smaller firms and I don't think that you know I don't think that frame is sort of no one puts that frame around it from a public policy perspective. And I think to the extent that this is happening there's two challenges. How do you nurture those businesses. And then you've got to create a lot more firms if you want to create jobs. If your average firm is becoming smaller over time and to your point about so many the niche kind of creation of jobs which does not do overall creation of jobs aren't single I mean I'm saying single I should be self-employed and not just be a single person and office but that's typically what happens. Isn't that the niche of all niches. Yeah. I mean you see if you see the cross all business types it's and frankly it's it's in business services is where you're seeing most of the most of the folks who are sort of going out on their own that that's where they're going out on their own and

obviously they don't they don't qualify for any of these programs. You know we've we've talked about where certain industries get special treatment. All right. We're continuing to talk about jobs this hour what is a good job and what it will it take to create more of them. We come back from break. Let's try to put some prescriptions on the table of course my guests have the answers right. Well find out. You can get in on the conversation 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Call us if you're looking for work. Call us if you've just gotten a job let us know what the job market looks like from your perspective. 8 7 7 3 a one eighty nine seventy eight 7 7 3 0 1 89 7. Send us a tweet or write to our Facebook page. We'll be back after this break. Keep your dial on eighty nine point seven. WGBH Boston Public Radio. No. The.

WGBH programs exist because of you. And Newberry court a full service residential community in Concord Massachusetts supporting PR eyes international news show the world weekdays at 3 and 6 here on eighty nine point seven. WGBH. And Sam its Blackstone associates brand focused strategy design and digital media. More than 30 years of helping nonprofit and for profit organizations communicate their value and vision you can find us on the web at S A M E T Z dot com. With the. Next time on the World nations gather again to talk about climate change. We need to hear at a time when greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere have never been higher to hammer out deals. You need to reassure each other that you are all committed to finding concrete

solutions. So how are we doing climate change all this week on the world. Coming up at 3 here on eighty nine point seven WGBH. This season get the most out of your gift giving by placing a bit during the Third Annual WGBH holiday auction. Name your price on one of a kind getaway. Beautiful jewelry and other unique gifts all while supporting public broadcasting at the same time. This year's big ticket item is a fully loaded 2011 Saab 9 4 x premium SUV with cross wheel drives donated by your New England Sabila visit auctioned on WGBH dot org. Great question. That is a great question and that's a great question. It's a great question. Rick great question and feel hear unexpected questions and unexpected answers this afternoon at 2:00 here on eighty nine point seven. WGBH. Good afternoon I'm Cally Crossley. If you're just joining us we're talking about the workforce last

week the Department of Labor announced that unemployment had sharply declined and that the number of jobs being created is up where looking at what kinds of jobs are actually being created. Are they good jobs. Are they low wage jobs. Does it make a difference in this economy. I'm joined by MIT Professor Paul Osterman co-author of good jobs America making work better for everyone. Russ Davis executive director of Massachusetts Jobs with Justice. And Steve puppet is director of research and director of the Seamus center for better government at the Pioneer Institute. You can get in on the conversation at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 seventy 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. If you're looking for work tell us what you're saying tell us if you've gotten a good job recently. Let us know if you've had to settle for a job that pays less. 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. So before the break I said I want to talk to all of you about how to make a right now in this moment. Good job.

One of the points that you make in your book. Paul Osterman good jobs America is that some of the institutions there were in place to strengthen the middle class to allow the building of. Good jobs better jobs are have been weakened. Talk about that a little bit if you will. Sure so if you look at what happened say in the 20th Century factory jobs were lousy jobs. A colleague of mine as historian describes the hiring procedure at one typical factory the foreman would stand at the gate and throw apples into the crowd and whoever caught an Apple got hired. So there they were terrible jobs they were dangerous jobs and two things happened to change one was unionization and secondly it was the government. During the New Deal put in place a set of regulations and policies that pushed up the bottom to put a floor under the job market the minimum wage for example health and safety came in later on in 1978. Age Discrimination Employment Opportunity for

minorities all of these made good jobs. Well unions have declined and the government has retreated and and the norms in the society have changed. Used to be the case that if you were a CEO you got your picture on the cover of Fortune magazine if you treated your employees well. Now you get your picture on the cover if you've made a lot of profits and laid off a lot of folks. So we need to kind of reverse that and there's a set of policies part of which which which I'm sure Russell talked about have to do with voice and unions. But there's a number of things the government can do independently of unions to improve job quality. The government for example contracts out a great deal of work without putting any standards on the quality of that work. The government gives zoning approvals with typically without requiring that big construction projects that receive those approvals hire folks at decent wages there's a lot of a lot we can do if we have the political commitment to do it. So the question I wonder listening to you talking about you know that which can make good jobs

better in the scenario that you just described that helped certainly middle class folks build into the middle class is what happens if the trend has gone the other way Rus and now I don't know how you go back. Here's an from Facebook and she writes the best jobs I've held were unregulated and unionized industries in the 70s many people were employed by the airline industry with good stable jobs. I left my flight attendant job at t w a in a strike in 1906. After 15 years of work a replacement worker hired then does not yet make the same salary that I made in 1906. Well you know I don't think what we're seeing is inevitable we're seeing things that have been created to the benefit of some people and to the detriment of others. And so I think you have the similar income disparity right before the Great Depression in the 20s and that led to the program's apologist described and also the wave of unionization. Same thing in the Gilded Age. You know I think it's a it's a question of choice it's a question of what kind of

country we want to live in and what kind of policies we want to see and what kind of level of fairness we want to see in the economy and I think as I said before the Occupy movement is showing that people are fed up. And there's it's time for a real sea change in this country I think Wal-Mart coming into Boston is a perfect example where their model of low wage jobs with almost no benefits is one option. Another option is to say to Wal-Mart Well if you want to come into our community you want to do business here and you're going to make a lot of money. We want those to be good jobs who want you to respect your workers and we want you to you know provide benefits so the taxpayer doesn't have to pay for the health care of Wal-Mart workers I think it's really just a choice. And I think we're seeing in this country people are beginning to make that choice and you know there are a lot of policy things that come out of that basic choice but I think fundamentally you know we have to say that we are tired of an economy that works only for the benefit of a few. The Walton family you know who owns Wal-Mart has more wealth than 35 million Americans combined. That's the kind of economy we're living in today.

Well I guess my question is if this is the environment by which you know things are operating how do any of these trends reverse. People are concerned that we're going to end up being. Like so many countries where there is just rich and poor and no middle class I mean that's been the distinctive factor about America. You could get to the middle class and live quite well but if yours appears and writing that the woman that replaced her is not making the same salary that she made in 1086 I mean this. This trend is not going in the opposite direction seems to me. Sure and I think you know the key there again is job creation and having a dynamic economy I think you you know you obviously had you know the airline industry sort of the story with the airline industry is that it's never actually made money in aggregate. You know we've sort of got a system there that doesn't work. And I think you know the notion that the notion that that could have gone on indefinitely is not possible it's you know it's a shame when anyone loses their job at it. That clearly was was unsustainable. You know I think if we return to some of the things we've been talking about you know

I think in my mind it's more complex than I think some of the solutions that are being offered that you know we do have very restrictive public procurement practices here which do require. Certain levels of wages on public works now I mean think one can say that that you know that that has obviously had a benefit beneficial effect for those workers. It has also limited the the number of public works projects that we can have underway at at any given time given you know given the state of the construction industry now would you want more construction workers working. Or would you want a handful of workers at a particular wage. I think you know things are you saying that a job is better than no job are you there. It can be it can be I wouldn't you know I wouldn't make an unequivocal statement in all cases but I think you know I think there's a tension between the two and I think we shouldn't lose sight that that you know that there are cases where people would prefer to be working. So let me I think this is the key difference between us. Let me use some international evidence. So let me talk about France and Germany. Now these are two

countries that have a higher fraction of adults working than we do. A higher fraction of adults working than we do their so-called employment population ratio is better than ours. But they have far much smaller percentage of low wage jobs than we do. They've shown that you can put a floor on the job market. Now let's not let standards decline below a certain level and still create jobs. Now Germany has a very sophisticated set of training programs. It has a very sophisticated set of industrial policies and has a much more active government than we do with respect to creating jobs. But they've shown the kind of choice is really a false choice we can have. And to some extent we can have it both ways now I agree that you can't we couldn't raise the minimum wage to $25 an hour and expect the economy to function well. So raising minimum wage is not necessarily the answer. Well no it is a part of the answer is that the minimum wage today is $3 an hour and

inflation adjusted terms below what it was in 1968. Think about that. And so we should raise the minimum wage but you know within reason within reason. But France and Germany and other parts of Europe show that the choice between any job and quality jobs is a false choice. OK. So what then. Right now. Well you know what happened I know it's crazy because you all would be there. Congress should pass a stimulus package that Obama President Obama recommended that would create the jobs bill that would that would create jobs. That's what I said earlier we know how to create jobs that will create jobs. And we you know we have bridges in Massachusetts that are falling apart. I mean there are things that we are way behind Europe and China even in terms of infrastructure. So there are things that we as a society need to happen. We have people with the skills to make them happen. Right. The only question is is freeing up the money to do that and as Paul has said once you do that those people then go out

and spend money that creates more wealth more people get hired and that's how you get out of recession you don't get out of recession like you see in England where they're you know cutting cutting cutting in the economy you know crashing. So I think that's the fundamental you know choices. You know it's sounds too simple because it is simple and it's not happening purely because you know some people are going to you know. Lose a lot of money as a result. What does it take Steve. So so what we're talking about here is underlying is a will by somebody certainly should be our leaders I guess who aren't in a position to make some changes some policy changes overall. Perhaps there's a push from outside as Russ has indicated by the occupiers who are who have many would agree have changed the conversation about income inequality. Whether you like how they've changed it or not that's people are talking about it in ways they hadn't before. To get people do something now and Paul is talking about President Obama's Jobs Act which he's determined to get through in pieces now because it can't get through and the whole

thing. We just seem to be at a stalemate. I have to say I am I just depressed about it and I think well yeah. You know maybe you may be well served to be depressed about it. You know I do think this discussion is very interesting about the stimulus bill because I think you know the story of the first stimulus was we transferred a tremendous amount of money to state and local governments and you know when you actually look at the numbers employment in state government in Massachusetts has actually grown since 2006 it hasn't. We sort of we haven't you know the the narrative of you know these wholesale layoffs and doubtless there have been layoffs but again looking at the broader picture we actually have more people working in state government and a relatively small amount of that stimulus was spent on infrastructure. And again I guess I return to the previous point if we choose to spend money on infrastructure which we think is going to create long term value for us as a society to the extent that you limit the firms and you limit sort of what the workforce that can work on that infrastructure you're not necessarily achieving

your goal of broader employment in broader employment in a sector that desperately needs construction. Do you have an example Steve somewhere in the United States where they have done exactly what you said and it's working well and it should be a model for Massachusetts and other places. In terms of you know take a look at infrastructure I think I know and rightly and I think infrastructure is one of those puzzles because unfortunately the urge to do the urge to do a lot quickly frequently overwhelms the urge to do things that make sense that will create long term value you know sort of one can create jobs by taking away people shovels and giving them spoons. But that doesn't you know that's not the type of employment I think any of us wants to create and it's also not the type of employment that creates value for the broader society. With with public dollars I mean I think Steve is talking be honest is talking about construction jobs. He's talking about prevailing wage and project labor agreements. And I would argue that that is exactly the thing that we need to have more of. We need to

have more construction union jobs that pay good wages that have benefits and not what Steve is saying we can have more jobs but with fewer you know lower wages fewer benefits those people often don't work a full year. The reason they make higher hourly wage is because they don't work. Generally speaking you know 12 months out of the year so they have to get a family wage job in there somehow and I think again there are people who would like to make a lot more money off of the construction industry than they are now so they want to pay lower wages. And we're seeing that. In Copley Square at the Marriott you know they want to bring people in to work at low wages with no benefits in the construction industry and that's is bad for that industry and bad for the economy is it is it Wal-Mart or any other industry. But I do think we have to have the last word. We have I think we have grounds for agreement here so Steve had a great line. Right you don't want to take away shovels and give people spoons. But the image of infrastructure the image of public public works employment is dig a hole and fill

it in. That's the kind of demagoguery attack on it but that's not what's going on. Some of us some of the listeners are going home on the green line today. The green line was built by the Works Progress Administration work products and inspiration of the New Deal. It was public service employment was public works. Dams all across this country. I was just in San Antonio the River Walk in San Antonio was a WPA projects all public infrastructure development public employment can be a very very good thing and a long term investment. All right well I'm certain we'll be back at this table to have more discussion about this topic because we've got a long way to go in this economy even as unemployment drops so thank you all. We've been talking about unemployed and employment rather and unemployment in America and what it means to have a good job in this economy. I've been speaking with Paul Osterman professor of human resources and Management at MIT Sloan School of Management. He's co-author of good jobs America making work better for everyone. Russ Davis the executive director of Massachusetts Jobs with

Justice and steampunk director of research and director of the Seamus center for better government at the Pioneer Institute. You can keep on top of the Calla Crossley Show at WGBH dot org slash Calla Crossley follow us on Twitter. I've become a fan of the Calla Crossley Show on Facebook Alan Crossley Show is a production of WGBH Boston Public Radio.