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I'm counting Crossley This is the Kelly Crossley Show. Today we're talking about the American Repertory theater's adaptation of Porgy and Bess premiering right here in Cambridge. Back in one thousand thirty five The Gershwins original Porgy and Bess premiered in Boston and with it they gave America's playlist hits. Like summer time. Nearly 75 years on the RTD has breathed new life into Porgy and Bess. But not without controversy though their adaptation both big names and even bigger voices. It's a down to earth affair in this generation we see characters we can sympathize with. We see a love story that's present and profound. Some say this adaptation nails it. Others including Stephen Sondheim say that ain't necessarily so. Tampering with the Gershwins original is nothing short of blasphemy. Up next the Artes Porgy and Bess. A timeless work. For a some time. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi saying the country seeing a jump again in

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Lower Dir in a village near the Afghan border from Islamabad NPR's Julie McCarthy reports recent cross-border raids into the region by militants who have found sanctuary in Afghanistan have aggravated tensions between the two countries. According to local police chief Celine Khan as funeral prayers of a local tribesmen got underway a suicide bomber walked up to the crowd and blew himself up. Police sources say the deceased bhakt Khan was a member of the tribe reputed to be fiercely anti Taliban. Most of the people killed in the attack were from the tribe that resides in both Pakistan and Afghanistan. The tribes chief who reportedly held influence on both sides of the border was killed in a suicide attack in Afghanistan in April. Security sources say that those who perished in the funeral bombing were believed to be associated with the tribal chief. Locals in the area nearby the scene of the attack had also raised volunteer militias against of the Taliban. Julie McCarthy NPR News Islamabad.

The Associated Press is reporting that lung cancer rates are dropping across the United States and Western states are leading to or leading the decline. The AP says the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is reporting lower smoking rates in states such as California and Texas accounting for much of the improvement particularly in women. Lung cancer has been declining in men for years but the decline in women is much more recent. The Dow was up 130 points its at eleven thousand three seventy six. This is NPR. Support for NPR comes from living essentials distributer 0 5 hour energy available at grocery drug health and convenience stores and at five hour energy dot com. Good afternoon I'm Kelly Crossley. When the original Porgy and Bess folk opera premier in Boston in 1935 at the Colonial Theater audiences leapt to their feet with a 15 minute standing ovation. Now there's a new version of Porgy and Bess. It's currently on stage at the

American Repertory Theater in Cambridge. It's soon headed to Broadway and in sold out performances audiences are also applauding. We're going to be talking about the changes in the way our tease Porgy and Bess production and the criticisms directed at it about tampering with a classic. Joining me to talk about this production are image price and Carol. Emmett price is chair of the department of African-American Studies at Northeastern University. Kara logia is the William Powell Mason professor of music and the history of American civilization at Harvard University. Thank you both for joining us today. Thanks for having us Kelly. Now there's a couple of ways of looking at and critiquing this production one is just the pure artistic performances and the production itself. And of course the secondary way to look at it is to talk about the cultural criticisms that have been directed at it. But I want to start with just the artistic production. So for folks who have no idea they're thinking Porgy what. It's a Porgy and

Bess probably the best known song from that opera that folk opera is summertime. So that will that will center people about and understanding it. And here's just a very brief background on the story it's set in rural poor black fishing community South Carolina. The main characters are poor gay a crippled beggar Besta kind of fast loose woman crown her boyfriend and sporting life a drug dealer. When overall I would say that it deals with social issues like drug abuse racism and poverty. It was written originally by DuBose DuBose Heyward and then the opera the musical part came to be with the Gershwin brothers both George and Ira. So this was an opera originally and now this version at the party is a musical Carol. Oh Joe that's right in your wheelhouse. Tell us the difference and what you observed from an artistic standpoint about this production.

Well the opera of 1935 has never been a stable entity anyway. There have been various versions of the opera of different lengths sometimes with song lyrics sometimes with spoken lyrics. So it's a fluid entity to start with. And what Diane Paulus and her team at A.R.T. have done is to trim it down to remove all of the song lyrics so the dialogue is spoken now to flesh out the characters more there's but there's more of a kind of human. Full bodied component to it. Then there was to the original Porgy and Bess and to turn it into essentially a black musical and to me it seems like a kind of feminist black musical in many ways. You know why do you say that. Well it's not only that Audra McDonald is spectacular to listen to and she is made it's an evening with her is you know it's a gift. She's she's an amazing artist of our day. But if she plays Bess when she plays Bess Yes but it's the way it's all been shaped.

There's there's a sense overall of a female perspective which you don't have in the original Porgy and Bess not to say that there's something wrong with the original but this is just a different take on it a little different twist. And we should say maybe Visa V your comment about the feminist take on this that the other people joining Diane Paulus in the re-imagining re-envisioning adaptation of this piece were Susan Lori Parks is an award winning black playwright and also Deandra Murray who attended to making some of the musical pieces more musical than them operatic if you will. So Emmett. How do you view it as an artistic production. I think this is historic. I think this was one of the classic moments that we will be talking about for years to come. I think the team of Paulison parks and Murray have done essentially to Porgy and Bess what Quincy Jones did to the Wizard of Oz. I mean really colorize it really underscores the cultural

underpinnings of it and really brought a number of things to life. You know one the gender piece and the feminist overtones if you will. I agree. I plot that also apply the use of the focus on the disability. Right and so poor his disability so poor he really comes out front as a disabled person but a member of the community who is respected and appreciated for what he brings to that community as opposed to kind of being the outcast and in the extrovert if you will in previous interpretations of the of the opera. Let's hear a little bit of the music. The most memorable song to a lot of people will be summertime as I said and here is Audra McDonald the aforementioned McDonald by carol singing summertime and this is the re prize. It's. Us.

Who. Can't mess with I do make don't know. OK that just has a gorgeous voice. So let's talk about some of the changes to the production and we mentioned a few of them. It's a shorter version. Typically in an operatic version it's a little bit longer. You mentioned Carol that some of the song lyrics are now spoken. That's really quite dramatic. And what Susan Lori Parks did was to flesh out these I'm using her terminology the story that connected all of these people. You know when you saw the opera version it was quite beautiful you can't Abscam miss with that we're going to play a little bit to show you the difference between the musical and the opera versions of it. But. If you didn't really know the story or could follow it while listening to the singing you were just out of luck you just were there to hear the songs. Would you agree.

I would agree I mean you know one of things about musical theatre really is there's different flow and has a different style and has a different istead it happens you know different from opera. The other thing is a different audience and different expectations or opera audience usually is looking for something that is definitive within their repertoire. So we kind of go knowing what to expect. A musical theatre audience may have that same kind of notion but there is always this you know I wonder what's going to happen you know which is a little bit different and the intention here was really to bring this American classic if you will in quotes to a new generation. And so the way to do that is to further develop the plot line to make it such that one could come in without any inclination of what the plot is and have a clear understanding and be sitting on the edge of your seat as I was at the conclusion. Would you agree. I would indeed and the expectations and in opera are indeed quite different and the singing style is different it's a whole it's in a way different musical

culture and what you had said a few minutes ago Calley about it being difficult to understand the story in the full opera in a way depends on which performance of it you see. However many of us going to opera used to listening to something that's in Italian or French or German and point and not understanding a lot anyway. So it kind of goes with that culture. Whereas with musical theatre there is there is a sense of immediacy to the drama of connecting with the audience viscerally from moment to moment which opera can do too. So so yes I mean there are those those two sides are present and Porgy and Bess is flexible enough which is fascinating to occupy both. You know one of the main points here is if Porgy and Bess is a great American opera then it can have multiple interpretations and I think this is the piece that kind of gets into the you know some of the critique about it. I think if it is you know one of those standards if you will in a repertoire then it should invite multiple interpretations because the core and the crux

of the artistry still exist and sustain any kinds of those interpretations. Well it's an interesting point no. OK. I want to give people a chance to hear and we talk about the difference between an opera interpretation of this work and a musical interpretation. So first let's start with the Artes version. This is Audrey McDonnell and Norma Lewis playing Porgy and the song is Bess you is my woman now so this would be the musical version of this song. Phone. INS

and. Her phone will be slow to load the series come the load. Lol it's really hard to tear myself away from this. All right I want to give people a chance to hear another version of the same song Bessie who is my woman now this time from the Houston Grand Opera his 1977 production.

This is quite a fabulous production of this piece. Was. Oh. God. And this. Was was. Was was a was. The boy. Was he.

Was. Week was cool. OK so now you heard the opera version of it which you know there's both versions really take people with some amazing capabilities. Carol oh you know I agree. And it's a matter of singing style that's different in the two it's also a matter of what's happening behind them in the orchestra or the pit orchestra and in the opera version you're hearing you know a full opera orchestra with full strings. It's a completely different arrangement from the one done by Deidre Murray which you're hearing in the A.R.T. production Carol. Some have described this and most recently and Ben Brantley the New York Times critics PPCs describes it as America's best opera or best opera. Is that right.

Well in my business person never says that. So it's a difference being a scholar and a critic or a skeptic about everything so it's certainly one of this country's best known operas and it was the first really to make as substantial a splash as I did initially and to have the kind of staying power that it's had since several other people have described it as such. Does it deserve that designation. Well I don't think it deserves that I think there are a number of other extremely powerful operas Truman has won you know Scott Joplin's you know historic and mysterious peace that kind of disappeared out of the American landscape for a number of years and now is back on the landscape. I think it is a powerful piece. I think it is an important piece and I think it's important for a number of reasons though one it problema ties is what does it mean to be American. And I think that's where a lot of the critique has happened in terms of. This fantastic reinterpretation by Polish parks and Murray as they

try to really develop character lines as opposed to using these kind of mystified archetypes. And I kind of look at it is as they are really de caricaturing these characters right because Sportin Life in Porgy and J can crown him best. These are individuals and they should have a history attached to them a life that's attached to them that allows for the community to live. And as caricature is and archetypes if you will they're just quote unquote black people. You know some thought at the time. Let me just say this about the piece. And one of the reasons may be that this new version or this reimagining gets so much attention is that the original piece I didn't realize was really show performed all over the world so we're talking it was in Milan it was in Vienna and the opera houses there. It was in the post World War Two. The first American to Riyadh trickle venture to play in the Soviet Union. I mean this is a heavyweight history. And

not to mention the fact that it was an opportunity for so many black actors and singers to be able to showcase their talents in a form like this but it doesn't come without its criticisms as we know. But with regard to the production and much has been said about just those adaptations. One of the pieces that I wanted to point to was just to highlight something that you said about Porgy not being his disability being present but in a different way as you both know in the original piece. Porgy is a man riding around in what was described as a goat cart so he's on his knees and he sort of has to push himself around. In this version Norm Lewis stands it's quite clear that he is crippled but he stands what do you think that does to the dynamic of the play itself. I'd like for both of you to respond to them. Well I think it challenges the the listener and the viewer to really deal with what is it about the character that when he

actually stands up tall with his back straight and his neck up long for it for a quick second before he at the very end what does it mean about his journey. You know as as a as a black man again here's where the development of a character is so important because you have somebody who's lesser means in terms of socioeconomic status and even the community in terms of the political and social structure of the community. He is not the bustling you know robust example of manliness if you will. But at the end of the of the musical. In many ways he is you know in essence he kind of gets the girl and you know the ends up leaving in order to go find her. And so this is this wrestling about black masculinity and black manhood in this American is moving from a 1930s perspective composing written and created by white authors and white librettos to this notion of what do we do. Well we put some cultural underpinnings over paintings on it. Carole do you think. Well yes but I'd like to pick up on something that Emma just said and that

has to do with the view of masculinity that this particular party presents I mean it's really striking. He's an almost an anti macho character. I think he's sensitive he's undo onst he has. You can feel him in his depth the feeling is so present. And when you add that to his disability it's just fascinating because it's really presenting someone who's in multiple dimensions an outsider to mainstream society and getting you inside to understand just how deeply human that person is. Well we have much more to talk about about this new production its new adaptation of Porgy and Bess at the A.R.T. and Cambridge that's created quite a lot of buzz and controversy not the least of which is a larger question about whether it's OK to adapt a quote unquote classic. We'd like to hear from you if you've seen this production. Does this reimagining work for you. Are you an opera buff who was frustrated by the reworking of an American classic great

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And that means fewer fundraisers. Take the 2012 challenge online at WGBH dot org. We're running out of oxygen. I only have so many people that I can create the world. I mean it's not an easy decision for anyone to make. Coming up at 3 o'clock on an eighty nine point seven WGBH Boston NPR station for news and culture. Welcome back to the Calla Crossley Show. If you're just joining us we're talking about the new adaptation of Porgy and Bess Cambridge's own American Repertory Theatre has reworked the production under the guidance of artistic director Diane Paulus. Joining me to talk through this new version are Emmett price chair of the department of an African-American Studies at Northeastern University. And Carole Oga the William Powell Mason professor of music and the history of American civilization at Harvard University. We've opened up the lines we want to hear from you. If you've seen this latest

version at the A.R.T. call us tell us what you think about it 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. And you can send us a tweet or write to our Facebook page so. Let's move to looking at the production in the in a fuller way in terms of the the cultural critique that has been thrown at it from every direction beginning with a piece by famed lyricist and composer Stephen Sondheim. You may know his name associated with pieces like Sunday In The Park With George Sweeney Todd. He's won an Academy Award Grammys Tonys and this is no small person to levy criticism against this piece. I think the one thing that perhaps undercuts it as he Levy criticism without having seen it but that needs to be put on the table. But his general premise is one that's been echoed in different ways by others and that is it

is an artistic piece should it be re Invision by others other than the folks who originally did it. So even though the estates of Dubois Hayward and the Gershwins asked for a reinterpretation of this and I asked Diane Paulus to do it with the able assistance as we said of Susan Lori Parks and did remarry. Still there are those who say don't touch it. Leave it alone. So first from you too. Emmett Price Absolutely he's he's he should be able to say what he feels and thinks and he's certainly qualified and validated you know voice. I have a tendency to disagree because a part of what makes it a great part of the canon is because it does welcome interpretation and numerous. I mean if you don't reinterpret it then it dies and no longer is valid of being in the canon because it's dead and gone. And then of course nobody

can interpret it the way that Gershwin and Heywood's you know both the boys and Dorothy who gets forgotten in the whole thing as well as as a participant in the creation of it it was they were. Absolutely. I think it's important that it is reinterpreted because there were some problems with the original version of it particularly reflection allows us to look at historical reflection. So the casting of how the character is or caricature is if you will of the 1930s were created there was some real problems with that I mean Porgy essentially is is a 1930 representation of Jim Crow if you will. You know a caricature created by Thomas dowdy Rice you know back in the Mitchell tradition and then you know Bess is kind of you know. Manifestation of Jessa bill. You know this kind of fast and you know you know loose woman if you will. And so what parlous does and with the help of parks and Murray is give them a new life and attach them to a reality that is manifest a 21st century mentality so we can watch it in 2011

and see it and it's real. Carol some have gone as far as to say it's political correctness gone amuck. This adaptation speaking to correcting or addressing some of the issues that image has raised from a cultural standpoint over your time of studying many musicals are there those that have been really in vision for a new generation addressing issues like this. Well one example not maybe not in terms of addressing racial issues but every envisioning was a musical title. Carmen Jones in 1943 which had an all black casts and envisioned the opera Carmen and had a whole new libretto by Oscar Hammerstein the second new orchestrations. It was the story line was sort of reset but the basic Carmen was intact so there's a long history of reshaping works like this. What I'd like to chip in here right now in terms of Sondheim is just a few thoughts about him and

why he might have written as he did. You know I can't begin to speak for him however he is on the record about Porgy and Bess. Prior to this and how much he cares about that opera. So I brought in a couple of quotations one of them is in a biography of Gershwin written by Howard Pollack. And Sondheim wrote a letter to him where he described Porgy and Bess as his favorite musical. That's the term he used. That's interesting. It is and he said I always find Porgy moving and I always find it surprising and inventive and I'm always jealous of it. I've always wished I wrote it. Now this was written by Sondheim 10 years ago or so. Another little quotation comes from Sondheim's own recent book Finishing the Hat where he says that hey words of lyrics for Porgy and Bess are as a set the most beautiful and powerful in our musical theatre history so he cares about this work a lot.

Yeah I would put on the table that he's 81 years old now and that he may have a perspective and from a time of appreciating some of those lyrics that frankly I mean I think this is a beautiful production I've always had appreciation for the opera version and the musical version for different reasons were just sickly. But from a cultural standpoint it's a racist piece. Get on board with it. That's what it is. I know and I want to give an example of this this is a you know all of the characters and sporting life among them. Here is David Alan Grier and the Artes performance of it ain't necessarily so I just listen to these lyrics and you'll hear all the stereotyping. IS HOLDING BACK TO SEE IF. The women. Hold. The media don't want. To let it bother. You.

There are some other pieces that we can play that's David Alan Grier I mean does a fabulous job let's be clear he's very talented but you know the songs are all about drug abuse from his perspective. I mean how that's a great thing to be and he's trying to impose his selling of drugs on the community. Let me take a call now Emily from Cambridge. Go ahead please you're on the callee Crossley Show WGBH. Thank you very much and thanks for the program. Well I did see Porgy and Bess and I enjoyed it immensely. Couple of comments that have been made on the program. I would say that to say that that criticism is that the original post but were full of archetypes is really a criticism of opera because almost all the characters certainly and in operas that are dramatic or tragic are all people who are over-the-top and exaggerations of real life. So I think that that's a part of the character of opera and to me that's what

Carson is trying to do was really to try to show that America could have a grand opera. You know let me ask a question. Does that change or does it become a different kind of meaning when the central issue is race when you're over the top about race. I can very I can very much understand that that that would be a big issue for for anybody of color. But I also think that that if you think about it from a feminist point of view most of the opera repertoire is terrible about women. And you could start rewriting Verity and then you could start rewriting Doenitz at TNA etc. etc. If you really wanted to give women the fair shake. So are you in favor of a re-envisioning or just leave classics alone. It doesn't know. I don't think I really want to come down on that question. But I will say one other thing that was disappointing to me as somebody who really cares about the. But

music is that I think one of the things that as much as I enjoy the production that you know that musical theater version really lacked was people who had the capacity vocally to really do justice to the music and to me the most the most and that's the odder and odder amount that McDonagh looted. Yeah and all of them were terrific in their part but I thought of for instance a piece like my man's gone now you really don't have a feeling for what that piece is like if somebody really can't sing it in this original piece you know OK I just don't it doesn't get your your gut if you don't hear a version of Gershwin's version. That's why I said. Anyway thanks for your profile good points and we thank you so much for the call. Both Carroll and emit want to respond. I just want to say a little bit about archetypes and that's how there's a fine line between an archetype and a stereotype. Right. And that's one point. Another has to do with the arrow when Porgy and Bess was written the 1930s there was a whole genre of theatre

called agit prop theatre which presented kind of almost caricature heard figures who kind of stood for types. And that was a very politicized movement so there. And there also during the period was still a very active scene with black face minstrel see so there were all of these forces that are sort of fusing in Porgy and Bess some ugly some noble pretty complicated. I would point out an interesting piece of history is that this piece almost went to Al Jolson to play in blackface. But to your point also just to underscore what is the difference between archetype and stereotype Carol. Well archetype I guess we see as a kind of noble term. Don't we. A character who presents sort of a vision of some cut of humanity reaching back to Greek Theatre. Really. OK. Whereas a stereotype is doing that but doing it in a way so that you make fun of someone and make some of them fun of them often

because of the color of their skin or their ethnicity or their gender or their sexual orientation or their disability. Got it. EMMETT Well I think that the caller has made some really good points Gershwin's intent here was to create the American folk opera. And so this was supposed in many ways be the epitome of the folk expression within the country. And I think to the point of the musical prowess if you will of the cast I think what's interesting here is that Paula's parks and Murray really tried to capture and captivate the cultural static of not just music being important but choreography and dance ability and also the actress but also the notion of posture and style and. Metaphors in colloquialisms and Carol mentioned you know in the break about the use of dialect is something we should talk about as well. But also the musical contour there are moments where their quartet singing and there's moments where there's solo duet and then this whole vast use of the African American or

African die a spork musical repertoire there's some ringing shout and some jazz some jazz in there some some spirituals and and so I African dragon drumming and so all of these were intentional aspects in order to really exemplify the African-American experience during the 1930s. OK John in Cambridge Go ahead please you're on the Kelly Crossley Show WGBH. I wanted to comment on the music OK. I felt that George Gershwin the wonderful young writer loved it you know. In my mind is not a composer in the classical sense that I thought he was overreaching by calling or you know just an opera current version of a vast improvement in that it didn't wasn't pretentious you know terrific music terrific harmony and then the wonderful job. Smaller to be sure but wonderful textures and much better

results. All right well thank you very much for your call John. Much appreciate it. We're going to go to break now and leave us with this this is a comment from Harold Cruse a black social critic. He said Porgy and Bess belongs in a museum and no self-respecting African-American should want to see it or be seen in it. He was referencing an earlier versions in the 70s but there you have it. We'll continue our conversation. We're talking about the new production of the Gershwins classic folk opera Porgy and Bess. Call us if you've seen it. Get in on the Porgy and Bess conversation at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 dialect. In the 21st century productions still OK. We'll talk about it on the other side of the break when we continue our conversation keep your dial on WGBH. This program is made possible thanks to you and the Boston Symphony Orchestra opening night

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Coming up at three o'clock here at eighty nine point seven WGBH. If you've recently volunteered a financial gift of support to WGBH Thanks Joy investment has gone straight to work powering the programs you depend on. And if you're looking for a way to become even more involved consider signing on as a WGBH volunteer help post in-studio events become a WGBH tour guide and join the behind the scenes team at WGBH radio in television. Details online at WGBH dot org slash volunteer the latest local news headlines are as close as your smartphone with the new WGBH app. A single tap keeps you up to date with headlines from business to arts and culture. Just a free download away at the App Store or learn more at double GBH dot org. Good afternoon I'm Kalee Crossley. If you're just joining us we're talking about the new adaptation of Porgy and Bess at the A.R.T. in Cambridge. It's created a lot

of buzz and controversy and we're talking about it this hour right now. Let's take a listen to the Artes version of a woman is a sometime thing. This is that with Joshua Henry as Jake and the ensemble. Dream. OK A. New way this seems to make you leave your. A. Game. So. That's the. Weak. Link. Was. That was from the a r t's version of Porgy and Bess a woman is a sometime thing. Joining me to talk about how this production stacks up against all the other iterations of the classic folk opera are in that price chair of the department of African-American Studies at Northeastern University. And Carole Olga

the William Powell Mason professor of music and the history of American civilization at Harvard University. You can join the conversation at 8 7 7 3 0 1 870 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. If you've seen this production we want to hear from you. Imet Let's start right out with talking about the dialect. I mean this is a piece written in the 30s set in the 20s. And the dialect and whatever version we've seen persists including now. Absolutely I mean it's problem ties in so many different ways I mean it has to exist because it's part of the core the aesthetic that was developed by the Gershwin's in Haywards. I think in the thirty five thirty six tour you have some big issues there I mean one you know in Washington D.C. Todd Duncan decides that he doesn't want to he doesn't want to perform unless they integrate the audience and this becomes the the moment where the Washington National Theater was integrated.

I mean so this this notion of the dialect as a attempt to either represent and or present you know African-American speech not necessarily back to the black community but to the rest of the world. As you mentioned earlier travels all around the world. So it becomes a problematic because here is the introduction to African-American culture internationally to individuals and it may not necessarily be right. You know it suggests now that it wasn't right. It was really overboard it was extremely you know over the top if you will. And I think what Paul is parsing Murray do is a great job in trying to reconcile that tension by still having the dialogue. But still trying to create some nuance and create some some moments where they actually you know translate the metaphors in colloquialism So they actually kind of work for me. Carol I will say in my own house growing up I heard this music quite a bit and it was always a try. My parents struggled around talking to us about it because of the dialect of it but the performances were so beautiful by the black performance so performers It was weird. And I'm very uncomfortable with the dialect

today. How do you see it. Well I personally I'm uncomfortable with it and there are many African-American singers who've been involved in productions of Porgy and Bess over the decades who have voiced the degree to which they also feel deeply unhappy with with the dialect. Todd Duncan who was the very famous Porgy in the 1052 production with a price said late in life that he worried over the dialect of the stereotyping over bringing the production to Europe over what people would say and what he's realized as decades have passed is that our perspective changes so that today even though the dialect is still difficult to hear we can kind of see it as a something that's historic and distant and of another era in the mid-1930s it was something different you know that yeah way different. And we should point out that the original version had a lot of the N-word in it which many black performers just refused to say so just that's it. Even at risk of losing the work. Yes so well and with summer time that's worked out so many black

female singers have recorded and there's the word mammy in there as well right. That's right. So many have gotten rid of it because it's so problematic so there's been a lot of editing of the lyrics by performers to to be able to live with them. Let's take a caller now line to my line Greg from Duxbury. Go ahead please. But I think you make cute things but it makes me think of it. One is that the arts are frequently reinterpreted and Shakespeare Romeo and Juliet became such a story. And also it makes me think of the issue when they were sort of trying to whitewash Mark Twain's Tom Sawyer approach some of these things I mean are disgusting and they reflect. America's brute and just sort of obliterate them. I don't think is doing you know I think we struggle with our own history and background. But

there's Shakespeare in Romeo and Juliet. I think respect I mean very positive and reinterpreting. Art thank you very much Greg for the call. Greg does raise an issue that came up earlier this year actually about the removal of the N-word from the adventures of Mark Twain to address some of what we've been talking about here. So it's a kind of a similar situation that anybody in a position of a Diane Paulus and a Susan Lori Parks and indeed Mary had to deal with to try to figure out what is appropriate for contemporary times. I need to put on the table because this was one of the criticisms from Stephen Sondheim that he believes some of these both production changes and cultural ones really have nothing to do with trying to address the material but everything to do with wanting to make it a success on Broadway that by that he means for national success. OK. All right. I let one of my Art's contributors a list and said Go ahead please you're on the Cali cross.

Hi Cali this is a really interesting discussion and I wanted to jump in because on some level I think all art is derivative all art is re mixed in some way. And I think of Diane Paulus as one of theater's Remax artists I mean obviously she does her own original work too but she has a very keen eye for taking one form and stretching it into another and as your earlier caller mentioned she's she's you know she's doing that again and she's in the great tradition of one of her favorite playwrights William Shakespeare. I also wanted to tell you I mean I happened to be in Washington D.C. right now where I recently saw arena stages. I would say in some ways reinterpretation of Oklahoma one of the great American musicals and this is a cross race cast and everyone has a dialect. Black white Latino they have the Oklahoma dialect. And it was very interesting for me to experience that and see wait a minute now what am I going to focus on is dialect racist. I

don't know because white people black people and Latinos are speaking this way. Say I had less of a problem of everybody speaking it than if some just one. I have to tell you you know that's my issue with some other material that's out there now and it takes on it. I just feel Alicia has a different import and weight when it is assigned to black people certainly assigned to them by white authors. So I think that I think I agree with you completely on that Cali I guess that I think that there are levels of of I don't want to say acceptability but there are levels of challenge in this. And I think that this is an issue that we face on stages in America deeply. We still are facing the color line in American theater I mean we could talk about other places too but in American theater it's very hard to find depictions of African-Americans that are very different from this. Absolutely and that and that make that Broadway hit.

That's right. So kudos to Lydia Davis's piece. Stick Fly is going to. I do what I have which does do that thanks very much for the call Alicia. Sure thing Kelly by. I want to put on the table what is gained by adaptation of an artistic piece and what is lost in your opinion. Well I think the gain is that it allows you to live a little bit longer in a new generation of folks who can grasp it who don't have the conceptual framework of the 1930s to draw from. And I think was lost is the notion that this this for better or for worse this piece represented a time lock of what it was to be in the late 20s or early 30s when it was I mean this was a novel right this this was a novel that was written titled Porgy. And so even in the sense of the development of Porgy and Bess is an adaptation or interpretation of a novel. So if it is self is evolution in progress what do you think Carol. Probably the biggest gain is finding a way to connect with today's young people and

to make a give a works some edges that connect with contemporary culture. And I think in many ways that's what the folks at A.R.T. have done with with this production. I'd like to ask Emmett a question if I could. It has to do with the depiction of sporting life that character who is the drug dealer or the pimp. And fits into the minstrel show stereotype of zip coon his character does that to me and I wonder how you felt about how they handle that because to in many ways sporting life The most problematic figure in terms of character and in the whole opera. They're been famous people in that role Avon long and Cab Calloway. Anyway I just did. I thought they did a very creative job with the sporting life character first. You have Dave Alan Greer who is a comedian par excellence but also thespian par excellence. And so he's able to bring his comedic timing and the flow and his ability to kind of navigate the movement of the scenes. But also as his

theatrical prowess as a singer as a dancer and as as that kind of person who can also feel the void so he's acting when he's not saying anything as much as when he's saying something. And the character and or caricature is developed in such a way so it's modern. Right this one is hold flow to New York. And the notion of happy does which was problematic during that time period you know the narcotics or whatnot. But what I love about his ability is that he is both bad but he's also good. So there are moments where he is sensitive to Bess and this notion is you know Bess you and I go back if there's anybody who knows you it's me you know and in this sinister piece comes out so because I know you want to you know do this or what not. But I think there is a little bit of compassion if you can read through it. But yes it's still a problem of ties and he in many ways is still that caricature you know even in the 2011 so I'm not suggesting that the interpretation of that adaptation is perfect by any means because I still think we need to work in that in that

vein I mean we can if we can change poor we can change sporting life as well. Do you think that this what is now being referred to as the Gershwins Porgy and Bess to distinguish distinguish it from the classic folk opera piece will eventually replace the classic folk opera piece or can they both live in the same space they will live in the same space. It's a big world of performance out there just in the state of Massachusetts within a few days there was the Tanglewood performance not staged but of the opera. And while A.R.T. was doing its new version so no I think they're there in many ways different organisms even though they have the same characters and the same melodies and the same title. Overall they will be in different venues and playing to different kinds of audiences. They will both live because when I was leaving the theater a person who was sitting next to me her statement was wow I need to go back and see the original or early version. Right and so it captivates you to the point that you want to know wow what was this based on

what have I been missing all of my life I've never seen it. One of the things we didn't talk about here much is are the performances we talked about. But I think they're all extremely strong. Every last one. And so I disagree with been Brantley New York Times is the only strong performances Audra McDonald because as a woman let me just say Norma Louis is my Porgy coming. Just want to be clear about this. He made his point. I think that you know all of the performers and the stage direction and all that is really interesting to see. So I appreciate the original as well. So Porgy and Bess for the 21st century or just Porgy and Bess not just re Invision for a new generation both things seem to me to be working very well. And I got to say kudos to people who had the it was brave to come out there and loot to do this right. So you're starting very early on. Yeah. I'll be interested to see how other audiences accept it but I think we have a Boston connection here that will be connected with it as well

since the original one was here and now we're coming back and here we are. One thing that you might say to audiences who have yet to see it go see it. Two thumbs up. All right and we've been talking about individual performances but enjoy the ensemble overall and just the sense of community that's one of the strongest things about this production. All right. I should note that Porgy and Bess is at the A.R.T. through October the 2nd. There are many sold out performances but maybe you can call and beg and plead and get a ticket. They begin preview performances on Broadway it is happening on December the 17th and will open on January 12th in New York. I am Kelly Crossley and we have been talking about the A Artie's production of Porgy and Bess. And I've been joined by Image price chair of the department of African-American Studies at Northeastern University. And Carol the William Powell Mason professor of music and the history of American civilization at Harvard University. We are a production of

WGBH Boston Public Radio.